Damiani

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CLASS at American Brahman Bookstore, Ithaca, NY

with Anthony Damiani (AD)

April 7, 1971

BUDDHISM; FA-TSANG

TOPIC: Buddhism

SUBJECT: Fa-Tsang

SUBSUBJECTS: Essay on the Gold Lion, Hua-yen Buddhism, Mentalism

CONTENTS:

Heart Sutra read

Reading Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion, second principle

This essay is being used to reconcile/integrate universe as manifestation of mind and mind of which it's a manifestation

This is a picture/seeing approach more than a metaphysical reasoning/thinking approach, it's writing for the eye

Anything you perceive has a form–color, quality, shape, size; these are forms of mind; form is emptiness, emptiness is form; example of dream

Attachment to the formal-izing tendency of the mind underlies all vasanas/unconscious compulsive tendencies; this is the fundamental problem, more basic than any psychological theory of your dis-ease

Reading Rene Guenon, The Multiple States of Being; definitions of manifestation, Being, Non-Being, and universal Possibility

A psychological analogy is drawn to help understand these definitions–manifest thoughts, consciousness of those thoughts, unmanifest thoughts, the unconscious

A mystic who experiences emptiness/bliss or the shape of space has only experienced the form of the lion and has not gotten to the gold; he's only halfway and should not stop there

Reading PB, The Wisdom of the Overself, "The Unveiling of Reality," on progressive stages of realization of the Real

The stage of Real as Great Emptiness is only a stage, not the final step

We are trying to work back to Wang's dictum "Knowledge and its completion in activity are not to be separated," or Socrates' "Knowledge is virtue"

Reading Guenon; gold surface of lion corresponds to Guenon's Being as a principle of manifestation

Reading Fa-tsang, third principle

This essay is a pedagogical device to force you into a situation where the ego is dropped in the process of reasoning, even if momentarily; it is not based on Aristotelian logic

Reading Fa-tsang, fourth principle

Gold includes lion, nothing exists outside of universal possibility

Form of lion has no being-substance of its own

When Buddha says world is sunya/void he means that the object is defined in terms of its relations with everything else, no self-standing "thing" there; example of chair

If you understand Fa-tsang's essay, you have climbed to the top of the 100-foot pole

Reading Fa-tsang, ninth principle

Sameness of illusion and non-illusion is the top of the 100-foot pole; if you don't understand this, you are not illuminated

BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:

Edward Conze, Buddhist Wisdom, The Diamond Sutra and The Heart Sutra, "The Heart Sutra"
Fung Yu-Lan, A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion"
Paul Brunton, The Wisdom of the Overself
Rene Guenon, The Multiple States of Being
Haritayana, Swami Ramanananda Saraswathi (tr.), Tripura Rahasya
Alan Watts, Myth and Ritual in Christianity

NOTE: For readability's sake, the following substitutions/edits made in Verbatim Transcript: cuz = because; gotta = got to; yeah = yes.

TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT prior to 2017, reformatted by jf 2017. In 2023, IT updates prefatory matter, footer, and audio file name, completes Book List, fixes errors/typos, adds new notes within transcript, reformats to accord with new conventions. Archival verbatim transcript – V12a.

AUDIO FILES: 1971 0407a, 1971 0407b. [Note: "Tape" refers to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files.]

Highlight:

1971 04/07 at American Brahman Bookstore

Buddhism; Fa-Tsang

[Audio File 1971 0407a Begins]

[Transcriber note: I am using Buddhist Wisdom, The Diamond Sutra and The Heart Sutra, translation and commentary by Edward Conze, Random House, New York, 2001.]

Edward Conze [The Heart Sutra, LS reading]: "[Om Homage to the Perfection of Wisdom, the Lovely, the Holy!

Avalokita, the Holy Lord and Bodhisattva, was moving in the] deep course of the Wisdom which has gone beyond.

He looked down from on high, He beheld but five heaps, and He saw that in their own-being they were empty. [S, very faint in background: (Bless you, bless you.)] [AD, faint: (Salud.)]

Here, O Sariputra,

form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form;

emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness, whatever is form, that is emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form,

the same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses, and consciousness. [S, very faint: Ok.] [AD, faint: Yes.]

Here, O Sariputra,

all dharmas are marked with emptiness;

they are not produced or stopped, not defiled or immaculate, not deficient or complete. Therefore, O Sariputra,

in emptiness there is no form, nor feeling, nor perception, nor impulse, nor consciousness;

No eye, ear [LS reads: ears], nose, tongue, body, mind; No forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touchables or objects of mind; No sight- organ element, and so forth, until we come to:

No mind-consciousness element; There is no ignorance, no extinction of ignorance, and so forth, until we come to: There is no decay and death, no extinction of decay and death. There is no suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path.

There is no cognition, no attainment and no non-attainment. [AD/S(?), very faint: Ok, let's go on.]

Therefore, O Sariputra,

it is because of his non-attainmentness that a Bodhisattva, through having relied on the

Perfection of Wisdom, dwells without thought-coverings. In the absence of thought-coverings he has not been made to tremble,

he has overcome what can upset, and in the end he attains to Nirvana.

All those who appear as Buddhas in the three periods of time fully awake to the utmost, right and perfect Enlightenment because they have relied on the Perfection of Wisdom.

Therefore one should know the prajnaparamita as the great spell, the spell of great knowledge, the utmost spell, the unequalled spell, allayer of all suffering, in truth--for what could go wrong? By the prajnaparamita has this spell been delivered. It runs like this:

[gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha.]

(Gone, gone, gone beyond, gone altogether beyond, O what an awakening, all-hail!)

This completes the Heart of perfect Wisdom."

[student(s) assenting, very faint]

[short pause]

AD (very faint): Would you (reread/repeat) those sentences? [9 second pause] When you first--

[short pause]

S (very faint, possibly part of background): Give me an example.

Edward Conze [The Heart Sutra, LS reading]: "…form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness, whatever is form, that is emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form…"

[short pause]

AD (faint): On Wednesday night there's so many people here.

[students assent, very faint]

S (faint): Maybe it'll [one word inaudible] (you know)?

AD: Oh, is that it? (laughter, student assents) Alright, last week we were speaking about the gold in the lion. And, our understanding has to work with this picture or this analogy. [student assents, faint] You have to imagine a gol-- a lion, substance is gold.

S: Yes.

[17¼ second pause]

[Transcriber note: I am using A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2 by Fung Yu-Lan, Princeton University Press, Princeton, 1953.]

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, Chapter 8, Section 3, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 342, AD reading]: "Regarding the second [of the ten] principle(s)…"

AD: I'm going to speak about another principle. We pick-- we picked up one last week. There's another one.

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, Chapter 8, Section 3, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 342, AD reading]: "…of [AD reads: on]"discriminating [AD adds: on] the emptiness of matter," we read in that [AD reads: this] work:

""This means that the (outward) aspect of the lion is void, [AD: The form of the lion.] and it is only the gold that is real. The fact that the lion is not (really) existent, whereas its gold substance is not non-existent, is called 'the emptiness of matter.' This emptiness, [furthermore], lacks any inherent quality of its own; it shows itself only within the limitations of matter. Yet it is not prevented thereby from having illusory existence. This fact is called the emptiness of matter" [(pp. 663-664)]."

AD: Now we'll repeat this. This is a direct quotation from the essay.

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, Chapter 8, Section 3, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 342, AD reading]: ""…the (outward) aspect of the lion is void, [AD rereads:""…the (outward) aspect of the lion is void] and it is only the gold that is real. The fact that the lion is not (really) existent…""

AD: And what do they mean by a lion?

S: I think (they mean/the) forms.

S (faint): Yes.

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, Chapter 8, Section 3, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 342, AD reading]: ""The fact that the lion is not (really) existent, whereas its gold substance is not [AD emphasis] non-existent, is called 'the emptiness of matter.'""

[9 second pause]

AD: You want to try again?

S: Yes.

[student assents, very faint]

AD: Make out you got an eye right here [AD demonstrates]. (student laughs)

S: Would be nice.

S (very faint): Good enough.

AD: Don't look with these eyes, this eye here.

S: Uh-hm.

S: [three/few words inaudible] (laughter)

AD: Why don't you take a vow of silence? (laughter, student words)

AD: You want to try explaining that someone? Come on, give it-- give a stab, somebody.

LS: I'll try.

AD: Yes.

LS: That the form doesn't really exist means that it structures the experience or the experience itself transcends the structure imposed on it. That the gold doesn't really not exist means that although we always see the gold in a form, the gold itself exists, has an existence that transcends the form through which we see it.

AD: And--

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, Chapter 8, Section 3, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 342, AD reading/speaking]: ""This emptiness, [furthermore], lacks any inherent quality of its own; [S, very faint: That's right.] it shows itself only within the limitations of matter.""

[short pause]

AD: What would you say they're referring to?

S (whisper): I don't know what this (means).

S (very faint): I don't know.

[short pause followed by tape break]

AD: --aspect of the lion is void. Here's a lion, alright, made out of gold. But the-- is there a lion here? [tape break] It can have all qualities because it hasn't any. You remember what I said last week? [student assents] We're going to try, through this Essay on the Gold Lion, to reconcile and reintegrate in our understanding the meaning that we try to see when we say that the universe is a manifestation of mind. But if the universe is a manifestation of mind, alright, we have an object which is presented to the mind and this object and the mind to which it is presented have to be reintegrated. And PB tried to do-- tried to do exactly that in his-- you know, in the Wisdom. But we're trying a different approach, we're trying to use a picture instead of that long process of metaphysical reasoning to get to the same conclusion. This requires more seeing. This kind of writing is for the eye, not for the brain. [student(s) assenting, very faint] Did you ever hear that saying, "He who writes for the eye is a great writer"? No, huh? Well-- Try again. (some laughter) I hope you have some septiles in your chart.

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, Chapter 8, Section 3, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 342, AD reading]: ""This means that the (outward) aspect of the lion is void, and it is only the gold that is real. The fact that the lion is not [AD emphasis] (really) existent whereas its gold substance is not [AD emphasis] non-existent, is called 'the emptiness of matter.' This emptiness, [furthermore], lacks any inherent quality of its own; it shows itself only within the limitations of matter. Yet it is not prevented thereby from having illusory existence. [AD adds: And] This fact is called the emptiness of matter" [(pp. 663-664)]."

AD: Don't you want to try? [tape break] --place in space, alright? Well this wouldn't be perfectly true but let's try.

S: That's a (kind of a) [one/two words inaudible]

S (simultaneously): Like, don't you see what [couple words inaudible]

[tape break]

LS(?): So long as this lion isn't real.

S (faint): Uh-hm, right.

S (faint): Uh-hm.

AD: I assume that you've got--

[tape break]

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, Chapter 8, Section 3, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 342, AD reading]: "Things of the phenomenal world are all manifestations of illusion or maya [(huan)] [AD: To use a word we're familiar with]. [AD adds: And] This fact is termed"the emptiness of matter." Such "emptiness" [(sunyata)], however, does not signify an absolute vacuum [AD reads: a vacuum] or [AD adds: the] non-presence of things…"

AD: Go on a little bit more. We're only going to do this paragraph, don't get ambitious. (bit of laughter)

S: What'd you say?

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, Chapter 8, Section 3, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," pp. 342-343, AD reading]: ""The meaning is that matter, inasmuch as it has no inherent nature of its own, is 'empty'; but inasmuch as it gives the illusion of having seeming qualities, it is 'existent.' The best thing (to say) is that illusory matter [(rupa)], inasmuch as it lacks any inherent substance of its own, cannot be differentiated from emptiness; and that genuine emptiness, being all perfect, penetrates to what lies beyond existence. By viewing matter as empty we achieve Great Wisdom, so that we do not abide in (the cycle of) life and death. By viewing emptiness as matter we achieve Great Pity, so that we do not abide in Nirvana. Only by creating no dualism between matter and emptiness, and no differentiation between pity and wisdom, do we reach [AD adds: the] Truth.""

AD: We'll try this again very slowly. Would you read that part--

[tape break]

Edward Conze [The Heart Sutra, LS reading]: "…form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness, whatever is form, that is emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form…"

[tape break]

AD: The most obvious features about any perception is the fact that that which you perceive has a certain form. [couple inaudible student words] Correct? Now, in your analysis, epistemological analysis, we came to the conclusion that this was a form, more or less, of mind. Let's take the analogy of the dream. In the dream you see a dream table, alright. Now this dream table is outlined in the dream, you see the brown colors, you see the curve, you see the round top, alright? [student assents, very faint] Ok?

S (very faint): Yes, uh-hm.

AD: Right?

S: Yes.

AD: All you saw was a form, right? The color, the quality, the shape, the size, that was all form.

LS (simultaneously): But-- but even there we always assume that it's made out of some stuff.

AD: Made out of some stuff, yes. [student assents] Alright, why don't you go on now.

S (very faint): (Yes.)

LS: But as soon as the dream disappears it becomes clear it was only a form from the mind and the stuff it was made out of wasn't any different from the form that it was made out of.

AD: Alright now, you get the feeling of what the form, the-- what he means by the emptiness of form? Form is emptiness, emptiness is form?

[students assent, very faint]

S (faint): Even if it should go through (some--)

AD: Louder Cr-- [tape break] --even for the Buddhist. They point out that we're operating with a self-actuating system, you know, the good old ego, alright, and it incorporates into its structure a series of errors that have been, you might say, institutionalized, incorporated, structured, and it feeds off these errors. Most of us who've experienced any kind of compulsive attitude in life, any kind of behavior that's beyond our control, we begin to realize that there's certain determinants in the unconscious that are more or less dictating that behavior and we turn around (and) we try to understand what those determinants are. One fellow will say it's self-guilt, another one will say it's aggressiveness, each one has his own little axe to grind, you know, right? Everyone-- if you notice, every psychologist has his own little axe to grind, ok. But the Buddhist would try to point out that the basic thing that underlies all of these little theories is this tendency towards form. [short pause] A tendency towards form. All mental activity usually gets formal-ized, if I can use that word. And the attachment to this tendency towards formalizing all-- all mental activity, the attachment to this is what they consider crucial, not the particular form. The particular form, it's already too far gone, the thought has already been molded. It's already going to explode in your consciousness. We call that vasanas, you remember?

[students assent, very faint]

LS: Call 'em--

[tape break]

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, Chapter 8, Section 3, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 343, AD reading]: ""…'The [(prospective)] Bodhisattva, before achieving the Way, has three doubts concerning this genuine emptiness and mysterious being. In the first place, suspecting that emptiness means the annihilation of matter, he holds to an emptiness that is completely annihilatory. Secondly, suspecting that emptiness is different from matter, he holds to an emptiness that is external to matter. Thirdly, suspecting that emptiness is itself a "thing," he holds to emptiness as constituting a state of being.'

""…The fact that matter is illusory cannot create a barrier between it and emptiness, nor can the fact that emptiness is genuine create a barrier between it and matter. [For] emptiness separated from matter becomes complete annihilation, [while] matter separated from emptiness becomes something real" (p. 638)."

AD: I'm going to try something since you people are looking at-- glaring at me. (laughter)

BS: But yet we've got [couple words inaudible] are two essences.

[tape break]

AD: --I and the (sort of--) [tape break] this language, maybe this will, alright, help.

[Transcriber note: I am using The Multiple States of Being by Rene Guenon, translated from the French by Joscelyn Godwin, Larson Publications, Inc., Burdett, NY, 1984. I do not know which edition AD is using, quotes should be checked.]

Rene Guenon [The Multiple States of Being, Chapter 3, "Being and Non-Being", p. 43, AD reading]: "If one defines Being, in the universal sense, as the principle of manifestation [and also as] comprising in itself the totality [AD reads: all] possibilities of manifestation, we [AD reads: one] must admit that Being [AD reads: it] is not infinite…"

AD: We follow that?

LS: Yes.

AD: You follow?

S: Because-- because matter is a--

[tape break]

AD: The vast cosmos, you know, that's-- they say now takes 15 billion light-years to transcend, I mean to-- (laughter) I guess every year they'll increase it, you know, 18, 20 billion year(s), alright.

LS: Universe expanding.

AD: It's expanding, yes, ok, (bit of laughter) alright. Now the totality of this manifested universe, every-- every part of it, ok, is the result of a principle which is superior to it and which he's calling "Being" that makes possible this manifestation. Ok? Use the analogy he just gave. Now Being is not included in manifestation or existence. Being is superior to existence, ok? Existence is always of particular discrete entities--like this exists, that exists, ok, this life, ok, these are existences, unique, particular, alright. [student assents, very faint] Alright. But Being is the principle that's behind all of them.

S: Is Being the substratum for existence?

AD: Hm?

S: Is Being substa-- a substratum for existence?

AD: You see, you're looking-- you're thinking of it materialistically.

S: I'm trying to.

AD: Yes.

[tape break]

Rene Guenon [The Multiple States of Being, Chapter 3, "Being and Non-Being", p. 43, AD reading]: "…Being, in the universal sense, as the principle of manifestation [and also as] comprising in itself the totality of [AD reads: all] possibilities of manifestation, we [AD reads: one] must admit that Being [AD reads: it] is not infinite, [AD: That is, the principle of Being is not infinite.] because it does not coincide with total Possibility [AD reads: neither is it coincident with total Possibilities]."

AD: You follow that? Because there's states beyond Being. So it doesn't include all possibilities, Being is limited there. Alright.

Rene Guenon [The Multiple States of Being, Chapter 3, "Being and Non-Being", pp. 43-44, AD reading]: "…as the principle of manifestation, [Being certainly] embraces all the possibilities of manifestation, [but this] only insofar as they are actually manifested. All the rest are outside Being, that is to say, all the possibilities of nonmanifestation [AD reads: It is outside Being that one finds all other possibilities, namely those of non-manifestation]…"

AD: Alright? That would be-- to use the analogy that we were using-- in other words, your thought is determined by certain principles inherent in-- in your consciousness and we say that that's Being, alright. Now beyond it there is, let's say, the unconscious. This is vi-- this vigorously excludes any kind of structuring. Ok? But the consciousness is like an island floating within this undefined sea of the unconscious. Now all possibilities lie within the unconscious, not within consciousness, [student assents, very faint] alright. Now, try to get the feeling of what he is saying and then we try to articulate.

AD: Now for instance you could have a thought. Ok? You could have a thought, now this is in manifestation. There are also certain memory contents in your mind which are not manifested but as soon as you want [AD snaps fingers] them you can bring them out and manifest them, ok? Where are they now? [student assents, very faint] (Alright?) So you have to have a principle that includes both the manifested thought and the thought which is not manifested. [S: Does this--] I don't like doing this to ma-- metaphysics but we have to. Yes?

S: Does this describe the--

[tape break]

Rene Guenon [The Multiple States of Being, Chapter 3, "Being and Non-Being", p. 44, AD reading]: "All the rest are outside Being, that is to say, all the possibilities of nonmanifestation as well as the possibilities of manifestation itself insofar as they are in the unmanifested state. Included among these is Being itself, which, since it is the principle of all manifestation, cannot belong to the same, and is in consequence itself unmanifested. [AD reads: It is outside Being that one finds all other possibilities, namely those of non-manifestation and those of manifestation which are in the unmanifested state. Among these is included Being itself, which, since it is the principle of all manifestation, cannot belong to the same and must in consequence be unmanifest.]"

AD: Now what he's saying here is the principle of manifestation, that is, Being, itself is not in manifestation, ok. For instance, your consciousness, alright, which is the principle of manifested thoughts, itself is not in manifestation. That make sense?

S: Uh-hm.

AD: Try to use it. Go ahead, think about it, you know.

[tape break]

AD: --because--

Rene Guenon [The Multiple States of Being, Chapter 3, "Being and Non-Being", p. 44, AD reading]: "For want of any other term, we are obliged to designate all that is outside and beyond Being as"Non-Being" [AD reads: We are compelled to designate all that is outside or beyond Being as "Non-Being"]…"

AD: In other words, this thought that you haven't manifested which resides in the unconscious-- and you see how utterly inadequate these words are. How could an unmanifested thought reside anywhere? What are you talking about? But this is our language, you know, ok? I hope you get-- grasp the meaning and throw the words away.

[students assent, very faint]

S: So square circle would be--

[tape break]

Rene Guenon [The Multiple States of Being, Chapter 3, "Being and Non-Being", pp. 44-45, AD reading]: "…designate all that is outside and [AD reads: or] beyond Being as"Non-Being", but this negative term signifies [AD reads: is] for us something quite other than the "nothingness" meant by [AD reads: than that of "nothingness" of] some philosophers. It is directly inspired by the terminology of the metaphysical doctrine of the Far East, and is sufficiently justified by the need for some kind of terminology in order for one to speak at all. [AD reads: We derive it from the metaphysical language of the Far East (AD: We're referring to China.) and find its use sufficiently justified by the need for some kind of terminology.] [Moreover], the most universal, and hence the most indeterminate, ideas can only be expressed [AD reads: can be expressed only] [(although inadequately)] by negative terms, as we have seen [AD reads: shown above] in connection with the Infinite. [AD: Forget that.] One can also say that Non-Being, in the sense we have indicated, is more than Being, or if you like, is superior to Being if one understands thereby that what it includes is beyond Being, and that it contains in principle Being itself. … But universal Possibility contains both Being and Non-Being. We would add that nonmanifestation contains both what we may call the unmanifestable, that is, the possibilities of nonmanifestation, and the manifestable, that is, the possibilities of manifestation insofar as they are not manifested, whereas the domain of manifestation evidently contains the ensemble of these same possibilities insofar as they are manifested. [AD reads: Non-Being in the present sense exceeds Being and is superior to Being in that it surpasses the limits of Being and contains Being. But universal Possibility, in its turn, contains both Being and Non-Being. To complete our definitions we would add that non-manifestation contains both the possibilities of non-manifestation and the possibilities of manifestation that are not as yet manifested, whereas the domain of manifestation contains the possibilities of manifestation only insofar as they are actually manifested.]"

AD: Let's try to use this in terms of the analogy, ok? Because I know this is a little hard to understand. He's saying the same thing that you're hearing in the Golden Lion.

LS: Non-- is Non-Being the principle of substance, is that right?

[students assent, very faint]

AD: Well, Lenny, I don't--

LS (simultaneously): Could you talk about that?

AD: Alright, I'll try.

S: What was the question?

LS (simultaneously): You're going to have to [one word inaudible] it.

AD: Let's use an analogy of the unconscious, ok, and the conscious because this-- you get the feeling that this is more intimate, it's closer to home, ok? You can use yourself an-- as an example. Consciousness, the principle of consciousness which operates with you, alright, determines the kind of world you have. Basically, consciousness is the primordial datum, alright. There is no possibility of any world without consciousness. Alright now, you have-- you have this principle of consciousness determining thoughts for you and these thoughts are manifested. The principle of consciousness itself remains beyond the thoughts. It is unmanifested. You just try, just try to grasp consciousness. Think for a minute, try to grasp it.

[10½ second pause]

LS: No, we try to grasp it in a form and that's bringing consciousness already.

AD: Already, ok? [students assent, very faint] It's impossible. [student assents, very faint] There is no possibility, like when you sit down in meditation, alright, and we had made the remark, try to step back. You see why it's impossible? [student assents, faint] Yes?

S: The word Non-Being--

[tape break]

AD: --this consciousness was the principle that was determining our thoughts for us and that if we tried to grasp this consciousness it would be utterly impossible. It's inconceivable. It's like trying to see your own face. It cannot be done, alright. Now, beyond that there's also the unconscious, alright, which is the principle of consciousness. Ok? This is only an analogy to help you understand his terms of Being, Non-Being(,) or Beyond Being, or universal Possibilities, ok? So this unconscious then contains within it both the manifested state, right, the thought which you have, the principle of manifestation, that is, the principle of consciousness itself, and also unmanifested thoughts that you haven't manifested. All these it contains at one stroke (here), simultaneously. For the unconscious not only does your thought exist, the principle of the thought, that is, your consciousness, but also thoughts that you have forgotten and which reside in the unconscious. [students assent, very faint] Ok? [student assents, very faint] In meditation, you've come-- you've come into confrontation with your thoughts, with the principle of consciousness. [short pause] And now you see the enormity of the task you're undertaking. This puny manifested little being is going to turn around and tell the-- its principle, "I want you to stop working for a minute." (bit of student chuckling)

S: Is then memory--

[tape break]

AD: --(read) this again, let's see if you can understand it, don't let the big words frighten you, they're only words, right? [tape break] The mystic, for instance, who reaches the stage of emptiness, alright, is comparable to, in our discussion of the form of the lion, to a person, alright-- that's the form, the form of the lion, not the gold of the lion but the form, who's experiencing that state, so to speak, of the shape of space. I-- just take it as it-- as it comes out, huh? I--

LS: Like a blank dream?

AD: Blank dream? (some laughter)

LS: Shape of space, I don't know. (some laughter)

LDS: Oh, is it because he sees a distinction between--

AD: He experiences no distinction.

LDS: Yes but, the experience he has is distinct from something else, like when he's--

AD (simultaneously): No, no. The experience there of emptiness, of course the Zen Master would chase you with a big stick or slap you or kick you or try to get you out of that state. That's sickness there. That's like only half. He's got to get you back to the gold lion, to the gold of the lion, not to the form, the shape of the-- of the lion.

S: But does bliss come [one/two words inaudible] with the experience?

AD: Of course, great bliss, that's why you get stuck there. (bit of laughter) Yes. Who wants to give it up, you know. You'll be forced to give it up. Nature won't permit you to stay there.

[student assents, very faint]

S: Is it-- is it a possible s--

AD: Somewhere, I don't remember the page, maybe you do, somewhere PB points out that you can go as far as emptiness but you shouldn't stop there. Remember that section? I think it was in "The Unveiling of Reality".

LS: About mistaking the stillness for the personal mind, yes.

RP (simultaneously): Well, it would certainly--

AD: (Go ahead), yes.

S: This sheath is the sheath of bliss but this too would pass.

AD: This too, yes.

[students assent, faint]

LS: Page 434 (Tony).

AD: 434, let's see if this is the--

S (very faint): You guys need coffee?

AD: Please.

[short pause followed by tape break]

[Transcriber note: I am using The Wisdom of the Overself by Paul Brunton, Rider and Company, London, 1943.]

PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The Unveiling of Reality," p. 203, AD reading]: "[We have to] study the Real by progressive phases. [Thus] this aspect of it as a great Emptiness is not to be taken as the final one."

[student assents, very faint]

AD: Now this is PB, alright.

PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The Unveiling of Reality," p. 203, AD reading]: "Thus this aspect of it as a great Emptiness is not to be taken as the final one. Yet its comprehension constitutes a necessary stage in such a study and has a twofold result. First, by depriving the whole universe of all its material substance, it breaks down our innate materialism."

AD: And you know how important it is to do this. [student assents, very faint] As soon as you experience a great sickness or come close to death, you'll find out. You'll cling to your instincts like they were ultimate.

S (faint): Ok.

PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The Unveiling of Reality," p. 203, AD reading]: "Second, by reducing all separate things to a seeming void, it removes our last excuse for attachment to them. Thus it is not only a metaphysical stage to instruct us but also a disciplinary one to liberate us."

S: Yes.

AD: Now that's on page 341 in the green edition. And I would suggest you study that very carefully.

S: The paragraph you were reading I--

[tape break]

AD: So, let's get back to this.

S (faint): When you say that--

[tape break]

AD: Say that again now.

[tape break]

AD: That's very perceptive, very good. If you'd like to repeat the first part especially.

BS: In terms of what you read about matter being-- or space being void or empty, I got the image of two ends of emptiness, so to speak. Well anyway. Matter or space is the unmanifested outline of manifested form and this form must have substance for itself to be. So there seems to be an interaction between Being and Non-Being, that is to say, Being penetrating into Non-Being.

AD: You almost got to the marrow.

BS: I felt (the/a) [one word inaudible] (some laughter) [S: (Well I didn't--)] Non-Being being receptive to Being.

S: [couple words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): Don't take-- don't take it word for word, try to get the inner consciousness, the image of the inner consciousness.

S (simultaneously): No. I agree, no, I should've.

S (simultaneously, faint): Yes. That's why we could say it experiences the Void, (there's) a type of-- you don't experience [one word inaudible]

S (simultaneously): [one/two words inaudible]

S: Wait, I'm interested in this other word 'vital principle', you said the vital principle is the knowledge of the unification of the Void and the form?

AD (simultaneously): Yes, because you see-- you see, we're working our way slowly back to Wang's dictum that knowledge and its completion in activity or behavior, they are not to be separated. We're getting back to that and we got to go-- we got to take this long detour. Remember like Socrates was saying about knowledge is virtue?

[students assent, very faint]

S: It's hard enough to--

AD: It's the utmost extension of your intuitive grasp of these teachings as far as you can, you know, possibly go with words and the linguistic equipment that we have to operate with. You understand very well if there was a follower of Wittgenstein here he'd have us all fired immediately. (bit of laughter) [S: Yes.] You know that.

S: See--

S: The solution of the problem of life consists in a disappearance of the problem?

AD: You want to repeat that to the class?

S: Solution of the problem of life consists in a disappearance of this problem. (bit of laughter)

S: What? (bit of laughter, student words)

AD: You'll have to--

S: Solution of the problem of life consists in a disappearance of this problem.

[students assent]

S: Life is the solution. (student laughs) What [S simultaneously: Life is dying.] about in Plotinus when he--

[few inaudible background student words]

AD: Alright, let's-- let's try digging Guenon once more, we'll reread the paragraph and now see if it has some meaning for you.

[student assents, faint]

Rene Guenon [The Multiple States of Being, pp. 43-44, AD reading]: "If one defines Being, in the universal sense, as the principle of manifestation [and also as] comprising in itself the totality of [AD reads: all] possibilities of manifestation, we [AD reads: one] must admit that Being [AD reads: it] is not infinite, because it does not coincide with total Possibility [AD reads: neither is it coincident with total Possibility]. Moreover, as the principle of manifestation, Being certainly embraces all the possibilities of manifestation, but this is only insofar as they are actually manifested. [AD reads: For Being, as the principle of manifestation, embraces all the possibilities of manifestation only insofar as they are actually manifested.]"

AD: You follow up to here? You-- if you have trouble use an analogy. Principle of consciousness, consciousness is the principle, all its contents are manifested, therefore, so to speak, it is its principle. But, this being so, consciousness itself is not capable of determining thoughts which are undetermined, which are memory contents, vasanas, etc, blah, blah, blah, ok? So therefore, this principle which determines manifested thoughts is not the principle that determines unmanifested thoughts. So we have to have a principle that takes care of that. But that principle would not only take care of unmanifested thoughts but this consciousness which manifest thoughts. So, we have this principle, total Possibility, the unconscious, anything that could be, total Possibility. Within it we have a little island and we call this little island consciousness, the principle of consciousness. Now within that we have even a smaller little island, we call these manifested thoughts. Alright now get back. The entirety of this manifested universe depends on the principle of Being, alright. This entire manifested unive-- universe is null, void, negated if you try to contrast it with its principle.

S (very faint): [few words inaudible]

AD: Yes.

S (very faint): [few words inaudible]

AD: Everything that is is completely null and void in comparison to the principle. There is no possibility of saying there's a symmetry between, for instance, the thought I have and the consciousness that manifest-- makes that manifestation possible. Because you can have thought upon thought endlessly forever and the principle of consciousness determines it, ok? Now this principle of consciousness in itself, so to speak, is determined by the unconscious, alright. Now all these universes that appear and disappear, so to speak, are nothing but (AD snaps fingers) clouds floating in the sky, so to speak. You have one, you have another and you can have them forever and ever, but in comparison to the sky they're null and void. Now [S simultaneously: Tony?] try to get a princ-- a notion--

S (simultaneously): And yet to-- and yet to speak of the period between two ages of manifestation is to misunderstand, isn't it?

AD: Of course it is. [student assents, faint] Yes of course.

S: Uh-hm. (AD laughs a bit)

S (faint): (You wouldn't be around.)

AD (simultaneously): That's a naïve interpretation, you know, of the Neo-Hindu, American Neo-Hindu. (laughter, student words)

S: Neo-American Brahman.

AD: Neo-American Brahman, alright. (laughter, student words)

DB: This-- this principle of consciousness or-- or Being is concerned with only-- is concerned only with what is or what is appearing, alright.

S: And I realize.

DB: It--

AD (simultaneously): The princ-- yes, of manifestation.

DB (simultaneously): It-- so in other words, you know, it's considered or it's concerned with activity or procession of sorts, ok. Now-- it's concerned with-- with the awareness of-- of these things, ok, as they are manifested, ok, or it's concerned with this process of manifestation, ok. Now, the principle of unconsciousne-- unconscious, which--

AD: No, it's not a principle, it was just [DB simultaneously: Well--] an analogy I was using.

DB (simultaneously): Ok, this analogy. (Wait--)

AD (simultaneously): There's no unconscious. That's a bugaboo.

DB: Right, ok, alright. [student assents, very faint] But--

AD: As soon as you said it you named it, it's no longer unconscious, go on.

DB: Well that's what I was trying to say. (laughter)

S (amidst laughter): [few words inaudible]

S: Thank you very much. (some more laughter)

AD: Ok.

Rene Guenon [The Multiple States of Being, p. 44, AD reading]: "All the rest are outside Being [AD reads: It is outside Being (AD rereads:"It is outside Being," now outside this principle) that one finds all other possibilities]…"

AD: Ok? [student assents, very faint] Now you cannot possibly experience emptiness within this principle.

DB: Right.

AD: Ok? So you have to go outside of this principle to find other possibilities of You, capital You.

Rene Guenon [The Multiple States of Being, p. 44, AD reading]: "All the rest are outside Being, that is to say, all the possibilities of nonmanifestation [AD reads: It is outside Being that one finds all other possibilities, namely those of non-manifestation (AD rereads:"namely those of non-manifestation")]…"

AD: There's parts of you that are in non-manifestation and they exist simultaneously with your physical being, alright?

S: Yes.

[student assents, very faint]

Rene Guenon [The Multiple States of Being, p. 44, AD reading]: "…as well as the possibilities of manifestation itself insofar as they are in the unmanifested state [AD reads: …and those of manifestation which are in the unmanifested state]."

AD: For instance, there's karma which you haven't experienced yet but which I very cheerfully hope you will.

S (faint): (Why not?) (laughter)

S (amidst laughter): Oh. Oh Virgo. (some more laughter, student words)

Rene Guenon [The Multiple States of Being, p. 44, AD reading]: "Included among these is Being itself, which, since it is the principle of all manifestation, cannot belong to the same, and is in consequence itself unmanifested. For want of any other term, we are obliged to designate all that is outside and beyond Being as"Non-Being," but this negative term signifies for us something quite other than the "nothingness" meant by some philosophers. [AD reads: And among these is included Being itself, which, since it is the principle of all manifestation, cannot belong to the same, and must in consequence be unmanifested. We are now compelled to designate all that is outside or beyond Being (AD: Which is a Platonic term.) as "Non-Being," (AD: Which is a Chinese term.) but this negative term is for us something quite other than "nothingness"…]"

AD: When they say Non-Being, when they say beyond Being, don't ever come up with the notion that these people are talking about nothing. Because if it already includes manifestation, the principle of manifestation, you see it must be greater than anything we can possibly conceive.

S: Is the principle of Being then Non-Being?

AD: In other words, Being is one of the possibilities within universal Possibility.

S: Which is Non-Being?

AD: Which is Non-Being or Beyond Being. Beyond Being is better for us, you know, because Non-Being has certain nega-- Yes, Lou.

S: When we talk ab-- about the mystic exper-- experiencing the Void, now this experience is beyond manifestation. Is that experience call-- is that an experience of the principle-- that would correspond with the principle-- principle of Being or is it go as high as principle of Non-Being?

AD: I don't think I understood you, let me see, if [S simultaneously, faint: Well, well--] the experience of emptiness corr-- would [student assents] correspond to the principle of Being.

S: In other words, if this experience of emptiness is the emptiness of matter or form, ok, Being is the principle of matter or form.

AD: Uh-hm.

S: So this would be an experience of Being itself.

AD: That's why that state is very intense, extremely intense. The more you eliminate of thinking when you meditate, the more intense your experience becomes of your own being. When you eliminate all thinking, so to speak, then the intensity that you experience of your existence, sheer existence, is quite interesting (here/yes).

AP: Is the form of the lion the principle of Being?

AD: Is the form of the lion--

AP: The principle of Being.

S (faint): Yes.

AD: Yes. [student assents, faint] [short pause] You could say that.

[student assents, faint]

AP: And then the gold here is--

AD: The only trouble there is, of course, you'd have to be careful not considering Being as in a sense illusory. You might say that Being here would correspond to this-- the go-- the gold surface of the lion.

S: Yes.

AP: The form, right?

AD: The surface of the lion would be Being, so to speak.

AP: And that is the emptiness void.

AD: That is emptiness, that is void.

S (simultaneously): Yes, wouldn't it be be-- wouldn't it be better to say that-- that it's not--

[tape break]

AD: Let's finish this paragraph and then we'll stop.

Rene Guenon [The Multiple States of Being, pp. 44-45, AD reading]: "One can also say that Non-Being, in the sense we have indicated, is more than Being, or if you like, is superior to Being if one understands thereby that what it includes is beyond Being, and that it contains in principle Being itself. … But universal Possibility contains both Being and Non-Being. We would add that nonmanifestation contains both what we may call the unmanifestable, that is, the possibilities of nonmanifestation, and the manifestable, that is, the possibilities of manifestation insofar as they are not manifested, whereas the domain of manifestation evidently contains the ensemble of these same possibilities insofar as they are manifested. [AD reads: Non-Being (AD: or beyond Being) in the present sense exceeds Being and is superior to Being in that it surpasses the limits of Being and contains it. But universal Possibility, in its turn, contains both Being and Non-Being. And to complete our definition(s) we would add that non-manifestation contains both the possibilities of non-manifestation and the possibilities of manifestation that are not as yet manifested, whereas the domain of manifestation contains the possibilities of manifestation only insofar as they are actually manifested.]"

[student assents, very faint]

AD: And I'd like you to use whatever analogy you find useful, and if the analogy of the unconscious, the conscious, and the structured are useful, use them. Yes, yes--

[student assents, faint]

S: If I think of the image of the lion and the gold--

[tape break]

AD: And the Zen student, the Zen disciple goes to his Master. He says, "Thank you, for nothing." [short pause] Now what goal are you talking about? [student assents, very faint] You see, in the Tripura Rahasya you're getting mixed up. When he speaks [student assents] about all this-- all this ignorance, you know, all this knowledge that we claim to be knowledge is really a form of ignorance, you have to remember he's using the word 'knowledge' in a very specific way--knowledge of forms. It's really, the word-- the word there, if you translate it back into the Hindu, would be 'avidya'. [short pause] Try repeating again what you said.

PD: Well if-- if that's the case then I'm-- I comple-- I completely misunderstood [couple/few words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): Totally, yes. Well that's very common, I told you, Neo-Brahmans are-- The translation of some of these Hindu words very often takes place but it's done out of context of what they really mean. The word there is not 'knowledge', it's 'avidya'. If you'd look at the text you'll see that, yes. Yes Tom.

TM (simultaneously): This ques-- this question may be a little out of place but what-- what does it mean when like when you cling to emptiness? Because it seems there that you would be in a state where it wouldn't even be empty, you would've reached a higher state, right, and is that what you said?

AD: [couple words inaudible] one more time.

TM: That's what I don't understand, that-- what do some-- I mean what are some-- obviously so this is written because there's cer-- certain people shouldn't cling to emptiness, I mean, that's one of the pitfalls, right?

AD (simultaneously): Yes, you just get attached to happiness, that's all it means.

S: [one/two words inaudible] (some laughter, student assents)

AD: You're making these big words, you're making them have big words, that's all it really means. Let's continue a little bit more, finish this part of the third principle. Alright, here's a little short extract.

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 344, AD reading]: ""The fact that, from (the point of view of) the senses, the lion exists, is called its (character of) sole imagination. The fact that (from a higher point of view) the lion only seemingly exists, is called its (character of) dependency on others. And the fact that the gold (of which the lion is made) is immutable in its nature, is called (the character of) ultimate reality" [(p. 664)]."

AD: Now let's-- let's go over this again, alright?

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 344, AD reading]: ""The fact that, from (the point of view of) the senses, the [AD emphasizes next two words] lion exists, is called its (character of) sole imagination. The fact that (from a higher point of view) the lion only seemingly exists, [AD: Reality only seemingly exists there."The fact that (from a higher point of view) the lion only seemingly exists] is called its (character of) dependency on others. [AD: Third.] And the fact that the gold (of which the lion is made) is immutable in its nature, is called (the character of) ultimate reality" [(p. 664)].

"This means that the events [AD reads: event] [AD: Now this is somebody else."This means that the events] and things of the phenomenal world all arise only as the result of causation. Though they give the illusion of having being, this being lacks…"

[Audio File 1971 0407a Ends]

[Audio File 1971 0407b Begins]

AD/S(?) (very faint): Should I go on?

S (very faint, possibly part of background): [couple words inaudible]

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 344, AD reading]: "…this being lacks any inherent nature of its own. Therefore it is said to have the character of dependency on other things, that is, on factors external to itself. [students assent, very faint] … [Again], the fact that the seeming state of being of these things is commonly but mistakenly regarded as constituting [AD reads: constituted] genuine being, is described as their character of sole imagination."

AD: I think I better stop here.

S: S-o-l-e?

AD: Yes, s-o-l-e. Let's go over this again.

S: Uh, [students assent] really, s-o-l-e?

S: Yes.

S: Go ahead.

[13½ second pause followed by tape break]

AD: --a strange way of operating, if you will. At one time they take away the object, at another time they take away the subject, at other times they leave both subject and object there, at other times they take away subject and object. And so you're forced into a kind of situation in your ordinary consciousness that actually smacks you up against a brick wall. You just feel your brain reeling from trying to comprehend these things. Like if you try to grasp the notion of the gold of the lion as noumena and the form or the shape of the lion as phenomena, and if you try to combine them in your consciousness or in your understanding, you'll get squeezed out, alright. So that it's actually a pedagogical device to force you more and more into a situation where the ego is dropped in the process of reasoning. Maybe-- maybe secondarily, maybe for an instant, but that's all that's re-- required. This is certainly not based on any kind of logic that we appreciate or understand in the West. How could it be? Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. What happens to the Aristotle's logic? How could that be, you know. You're saying A is not A and not-A is A. What are-- what are we doing here?

[28 second pause followed by tape break]

AD: Alright, let's try again, and I'll start from another angle. Now this-- this tries to point out the quality or the nature of the quality-less.

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 344, AD reading]: ""[This means that] the gold completely includes the lion, [AD rereads:""…the gold completely includes the lion] for apart from the gold…""

LS (simultaneously): The lion doesn't add anything to the gold?

AD: Can it?

LS: No, of [S simultaneously, very faint: No.] course not.

[student assents, very faint]

AD: Can anything exist outside of universal Possibility?

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 344, AD reading]: ""…for apart from the gold, the lion itself has no qualities [(laksana)] that may be seized.""

[student assents, very faint]

AD: Want to try that again?

S (faint): Yes.

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 344, AD reading]: ""…the gold completely includes the lion, [for] apart from the gold the lion itself has no qualities…""

PD: Neither does the gold have any qualities.

AD: You-- you're not using the analogy right. [short pause] Again--

AD: What does the lion refer to?

S: Lion is the gold.

S (very faint): [couple/three words inaudible]

S: Form, the form of the gold.

AD (simultaneously): Form, the form. Take the analogy of the dream, alright. Use the analogy of a dream.

[short pause]

S: How do you now-- lion has no qualities, ok, though it does have a sharp tooth. But that is really sharp gold.

AD: Ok.

S: Sharp?

S: Sharp gold.

S (simultaneously): Sharp tooth, sharp gold.

S (faint): Sharp?

S: Sharp.

AD: Now, let's go a little further. Is the sharpness distinct from the gold?

S (faint): I don't know.

S: You bet.

AD: You just changed the word 'lion' to 'sharpness'.

S: Yes.

S: Yes, so you wind up in another universe, um--

AD: Heterodox views.

S (faint): It's included [one/two words inaudible]

S (simultaneously): (Than/Then) buying (elves/l's). (some laughter)

AD: (Put it in the/Turned into) gold.

S (faint): Buying (elves/l's), right.

AD: Try again, yes, make the mind-- make the brain wriggle, you know, find ways out. Always do that.

S: But the lion doesn't include the sharpness?

AD: The lion doesn't include what?

S: The sharpness. (some laughter)

S: This is not a sharp lion.

S (simultaneously): (I did not) know there was a sharpness.

S: If the lion is not other than the sharpness--

AD: But when you're talking about the lion you're talking about the gold that includes that lion, right? It's not that the lion includes the gold, the gold includes the lion.

S: Yes. And the gold is just the sharpness.

AD: But that sharpness is the lion that we're talking-- talking about as included in the gold.

S (faint): [one word inaudible] is included in [one/two words inaudible]

S: But I keep wanting to say well that's the sharpness of a part of the lion.

AD: That's the sharpness of the part of the lion.

S: But part of the lion still encompasses the lion.

AD: Part of the lion still encompasses the lion?

S (simultaneously): (Balance.)

S (faint): (Balance.)

S: You're talking about the part of the lion, you still have to be thinking about the lion, the whole lion, to be able to even think of a part of it.

AD (simultaneously): Well sharpness is a quality that could be included almost indiscriminately among many many things. [students assent, faint] [short pause] Alright, look at what he says to that. He says--

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," pp. 344-345, AD reading]: ""To contemplate the qualityless is (to contemplate) the fact that the qualities of the tiniest particle of matter [(guna)] arise out of the evolutions of [AD adds: the] mind. Their position is false and has no reality, so that when seizing them one does not get them. From this we may know that the qualities of matter are void and non-existent, being products of [AD adds: the] mind and completely lacking any inherent nature of their own. This fact is called the qualityless" (p. 627).

"[AD adds: Now] Here we are [AD adds: being] told that all events and things of the phenomenal world are simply the illusory manifestations of mind. Being illusory, their state of"being" is not genuine being. Hence they may be said to be in actual fact without quality or qualityless."

[student assents, very faint]

S (faint): That's PB, that's a very familiar PB quote.

AD: Yes.

[student assents, faint]

S (faint): How?

AD: But you know, there's always a danger that when you read PB too many times you become a parrot and you repeat the words and the meaning has gone out the window so we take another point of view and then you're forced, you know, back a step to recognize that maybe you didn't understand what you read in PB. I always assume, you know, that this is so with us.

S: Tony, so if I say-- if I say one is lion or that the sharpness there, that's only a distinction that my mind is-- that I'm making--

SP: There isn't two things there, there isn't a lion and then there's gold separate from it, or gold and then a lion that you're talking about. Whenever you're talking about lion it's a way of talking about the gold [S simultaneously: It's a distinction--] and whenever you talk about gold it's a way of talking about the lion.

S: But it's also a way of talking about any other (form of distinction), right, when I talk about the gold?

[student assents, very faint]

AD: [one/two word inaudible] say it again.

S: While I'm talking about the lion-- [S, very faint: Right.] is a way of talking about the gold.

SP: Yes.

S: But when I talk about the gold, the lion is only one way to talk about it. It's one [SP simultaneously: But--] of the ways I could talk about it.

SP: This is an analogy, I mean we aren't-- we're talking about the gold lion as though all of manifestation [one/two words inaudible] too.

S: (Surprising.)

S: (But/Because) the lion would be all forms.

S (whisper): [one word inaudible] just a lion.

S (whisper): Yes it would.

S: Lion, um--

S (whisper): How so?

S (very faint): Because it's an analogy for different thing(s).

S (very faint): Well--

S (very faint): (Yes it is.)

DB: But isn't-- isn't when you're talking about the lion you're denying that that [few words inaudible]

S: No, but if it's anal-- if it's only an analogy, [SP: But--] and in talking about the gold it's not like you-- you're talking about the lion, that's one of the possibilities of the gold and-- and Chip says that it's not like I'm talking about a cow or something but there's a possibility that might-- if you talk about the gold.

GA: In the analogy, lion represents all of manifestation.

AD: Bert, would you like to repeat what you said before? Can you?

[student assents, very faint]

BS: Yes, sure. [tape break] The matter or space--

AD: The lion, in other words.

BS: Yes. Matter or s-- let me see if I could put this (another way/in other words). Matter or space is the unmanifested outline of manifested form and this form must have substance for itself to be. There's an interaction of Being penetrating into Non-Being.

AD: Do you follow that? Well they can't follow that so let's-- let's try that. Let's repeat that a few times until we can try to get it into us. [short pause] Repeat that Bert.

BS (simultaneously): Well, ok, I added a word. Matter or space being void-- ok?

AD (very faint): Try not to change it if you can.

BS: Is the unmanifested outline of manifested form.

AD: Now, you have to try to remember, he's using words for the purposes of helping you with an analogy, alright. When he says that this outline of matter in space is a manifest-- a manifested form, right?

S: Unmanifest.

BS (simultaneously): Well, it's the unmanifest-- the way I see it, is the unmanifested outline of manifested form, it's the same thing (really).

AD: You can-- [S simultaneously: Universe.] do you notice what you could do here?

S: Yes, go either way.

S (very faint): Change out some words.

AD (simultaneously): Hm? Yes, you can-- you can change them around, [student assents] you could interchange them, see. But if you do, you have to understand what [S simultaneously: You pretty much do.] you're doing. If you say that the lion is manifested, so to speak, and into existence comes an unmanifested form, now-- you see what we're doing with words here, it's very obvious. But actually, the form of the lion, alright, has no substance, no being of its own, alright.

S: Right.

AD: That's what you've got to try to get into you, because when the-- when the Buddha speaks that this world is sunyata or void, what he is saying is not that is has no existence. What he is saying is that its character is basically that of dependency on others, in other words, the principle of dependent origination. If you want to define an object for a Buddhist, you-- all you are doing is defining it in terms of relationships with everything else. There is no object there to speak of. Now what are relationships? We're going to have to push this aside for now, huh?

S: Relationship(s)? [student assents, very faint] Like what I'm-- what I think of it?

AD (simultaneously): Like for instance, this-- this green, alright, and this red, are part of this chair. The quality of hardness, the quality of-- ok, all these qualities combined produces this chair. Is any one of these qualities the chair? What is the chair?

[short pause]

S: What was that?

AD: It's a combination of all these qualities?

S (simultaneously): Of the qualities, yes.

AD: But if all these qualities have no existence in themselves, what have we got here?

S: Non-existent chair?

AD: You got-- you got (laughter) a form which is emptiness. Look, step back into the dream, you look at the dream. Here this chair is in the dream, ok. It has a green color, it has hardness, you can sit on it, you can use it, alright? [student assents, very faint] Alright. Now, is there some object there that underlies all these qualities?

S: I don't think so.

AD: Well, from this point of view looking back in a dream you say there's no object there, right? [student assents, faint] It was a series of relationships or thoughts. This is the meaning of sunyata in Buddhism. Not that there's nothing there, you see. There's no such thing as a vacuum, they're not talking about a vacuum. Alright? Now all these qualities combined together, these relationships all produce what you call the chair, alright? [student assents, very faint] Well it seems very strange, doesn't it?

[short pause]

S (very faint): Well, yes [one/two words inaudible]

AD: You ever ask yourself the nature of relationship?

[short pause]

S: You have to go all the way from the lion, you have an off-color view. (laughter, student words)

AD: Well, it was for very good reason that they said if you can understand the Essay on the Gold Lion you've climbed a hundred-foot pole.

[student assents, very faint]

S (very faint): [few words inaudible]

S: [couple/few words inaudible]

S: Hundred-foot pole?

AD: You climbed right up to the hundred-foot pole.

S: What is the hundred-foot pole?

AD: When you get up there then you ask that. (bit of laughter)

LS: Then you leap-- you leap from there into the thousand-foot chasm. (laughter, student words)

AD: Alright, let's see now if we can understand just this one further sentence because I have to break off now.

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 357, AD reading]: ""[However], enlightenment and delusion stand in mutual relationship, one to the other. It is not a case of [the] pure mind coming first and ignorance [(avidya)] afterward. Not being two separate objects, they cannot be considered as such. Comprehension of (the sameness of) illusion and non-illusion: herein [AD reads: here] lies the pure mind.""

S: Read that again, I like this (guy).

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 357, AD reading (simultaneously with S above)]: ""We should know that according to [AD adds: the] final truth there is no pure mind that comes first nor ignorance that comes afterward" (p. 636)."

AD: Now, this is the top of the hundred-foot pole. If you can't understand this, you can claim illumination, I will not believe you. I don't care what titles, what costume, what theatrics you perform. Alright, I'll read this once more.

Fung Yu-Lan [A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 2, "Fa-tsang's Essay on the Gold Lion," p. 357, AD reading]: ""[However], enlightenment and delusion stand in mutual relationship, one to the other. It is not a case of the pure mind coming first and ignorance [(avidya)] [AD adds: coming] afterward. Not being two separate objects, they cannot be considered as such. Comprehension of (the sameness of) illusion and non-illusion: herein lies the pure mind. We should know that according to [final] truth there is no pure mind that comes first nor ignorance that comes afterward" (p. 636)."

AD: You can take it home for a koan. (bit of laughter)

S (very faint): (No/Yes), that's ok.

AD: My time's up and we've only hit two principles of the Essay on the Golden Lion.

LS: We're going to do all ten?

AD: All ten you're going to go through, you're going to suffer every Wednesday. (student assents, some laughter) Yes Kurt.

S (simultaneously): Oh I know the telephone.

S (simultaneously): Seem-- seems like the-- the reason we have to bring this idea of emptiness-- emptiness is solely to contrast this belief in substance with qualities, in other words, to co--

AD: It's only what?

S: The-- the only reason you have-- we bring this idea of emptiness, ok, that it's necessary, is to contrast and negate this idea of substance with qualities, in other words, that these qualities inhere or this underlying substance. And the only reason we're bringing emptiness, the purpose of emptiness is to negate this idea of the s-- of substance.

AD: Well that's not the only purpose, but that's one of the [S simultaneously, faint: Ok.] purposes. Yes, we have to cancel out this long and ancient habit of a way of thinking, alright.

S: And this is substance itself?

AD: Hm?

S: And this is substance itself?

AD: Yes, what most people call substance is really the negation of substance. But then again, we would be landing right back in this paragraph. Alright, (yes).

S (simultaneously): And the way-- the way we're using emptiness has more meaning than just the negation of substance.

AD: Much more. [short pause] Well, I'm sorry you're all so confused. [S simultaneously: We're confused?] But cons-- [couple/three inaudible student words simultaneous with AD] but consider how-- consider how fortunate you are. Everyone can make those claims. Everyone knows what it's all about, [one/two inaudible student words] right?

S: Listen, is it that Watts? What were you reading the other night from Watts, Ritual Christian Myths.

S (very faint): Yes.

AD (simultaneously): Myth in Christianity? [Note: Alan Watts, Myth and Ritual in Christianity.]

S (faint): What did I tell Tony?

S: Do you have it here? You don't have that there.

AD: I don't have it but--

[Audio File 1971 0407b Ends]

Anthony Damiani Archive

Class

Wednesday, April 7th, 1971