Friday, May 4th, 1973

EVENT at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY

with Anthony Damiani (AD)

May 4a, 1973

PB VISIT TALK; ANNDREA TOBIN

TOPIC: PB Visit

SUBJECT: AnnDrea Tobin

SUBSUBJECTS: The Quest, Wisdom's Goldenrod

CONTENTS:

ARRIVAL IN MONTREUX: FIRST MEETINGS WITH PB AND PRACTICAL LESSONS

QUESTIONS ON THE WORLD-MIND; PB'S EMPHASIS ON BALANCE

ASTROLOGICAL TIMING AND AN UNEXPECTED ARRIVAL

MENTAL CLARITY AND RIGHT THOUGHT; FORCEFUL OUTWARD EXPRESSION

GURU MOUNTAIN AND THE KRISHNAMURTIS; PB'S REJECTION OF GURU STATUS; COMMENTS ON STEINER

REPORTING ON JUNG AND PSYCHOLOGY STUDIES AT THE CENTER

DESCRIBING WISDOM'S GOLDENROD AND ITS COMMUNITY TO PB

EMPHASIZING THE PRACTICAL; CULTIVATING POSITIVE QUALITIES AND REJECTING NEGATIVITY

A LESSON IN NATURALNESS: THE UNDERWEAR INCIDENT

"TONY IS THERE": ANTHONY DAMIANI AS TEACHER

NOTES:

• This talk was the first part of the May 4, 1973 class. The second part (1973 0504b) was Anthony Damian's regular class on Jung's concept of the Shadow.

• For additional notes from AnnDrea Tobin's visit with PB that were not mentioned in this talk, see PB Visits 1 (Goldenrod Interviews) at https://www.pbarchives.org/archive/document/writing/94. Search "AnnDrea Tobin" in the text-searchable PDF.

TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT 2025 (V14.1a) on the basis of V14r, with four more passes, updated prefatory matter, footer, and audio file name, new note within transcript, altered TOC/Subheads, green highlighting removed to make usable for web, new formatting to accord with new conventions. Originally transcribed by Transcription Puppy in 2020; reformatted by JRM/JF 2020, with TOC/Subheads by JRM. Archival verbatim transcript – V14.1a.

AUDIO FILES: 1973 0504a (formerly 1973 0504c). [Note 1: "Tape" refers to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files. Note 2: In 2024, REP Studio improved sound quality, though some portions remain difficult to hear.]

1973 05/04a at Wisdom's Goldenrod

PB Visit Talk; AnnDrea Tobin

Archival Verbatim Transcript

[Audio File 1973 0504a (formerly 1973 0504c) Begins]

ARRIVAL IN MONTREUX: FIRST MEETINGS WITH PB AND PRACTICAL LESSONS

AD: You went to Montreux. Who's there? You knocked on his door and he wasn't home.

S: Yeah.

S: I don't know. I don't--

S: Who's he?

S (very faint): Uh-hm.

S: Yeah.

AD: He had to split trees.

S (faint): You said he wasn't home.

AT: Well, after-- after a long hard journey, I was completely worn out. Baggage lost, flight canceled, you know, everything that could possibly go wrong. I arrived after train-- short train ride, couple of-- couple of flights in Montreux and had instructions to telephone PB after I arrived. And, when I received this telegram, the first thing that came into my mind even as the lady was reading it to me was, "Well, did he give-- did he give the phone number?" And I asked, now as my dear friends, before I left, for the phone number and I was assured that it would be in the book. Well, it wasn't in the book. So here I am exhausted in a strange city. I'm trying to ask in what little French I can muster acting.

AD: AnnDrea, some people from Columbus went to a phone in Montreux, open the telephone book, and called him.

AT (simultaneously): I also found it, but I don't-- I didn't go back to that same phone booth by the railway station.

S: Yeah but you--

S: She wanted to get back to the car.

AT (simultaneously): But anyway. But--

AD: She said no anyway.

AT: My first-- my first meetings with PB were very brief, about five minutes apiece on that first day. And, if I had gone by the feeling that I had--

S: Getting softer.

AT: Alright. Well I'll just repeat it. (laughter)

S (amidst laughter): Speak louder.

AT: If I had-- if I had gone by the feeling that I had, I wouldn't have-- I wouldn't have gone back because like there was just something that I couldn't-- I couldn't express and I was afraid to approach. But, like there were-- there were two girls and they got me a room in this, you know, nice respectable hotel. And-- and the-- the physical setting for the visit was, you know, really perfect, it was idyllic. There was the mountain overlooking the lake. The room that I had overlooked the lake from PB's apartment or from like the-- his balcony. And from the front you could see the lake, and you could see White Mountain, Mont Blanc, across the way. It's, you know, quite-- quite some-- and quite peaceful at that. I was really-- besides-- well besides the really important things they-- that whole setting, I really liked Switzerland. It seemed the whole-- the people there were more close to the land, like, you know, lead-- sort of leading an integral life.

And PB recommended that I take a good long rest. And he said that rest was needed by the body and by the mind, and that-- Oh later he mentioned that airlift-- that pilots, you know, had to go through a whole program of rest. And, I remember those words very distinctly as well as a look that he had in his eyes which-- yeah they were-- they were like water. I've never seen anything like that at that time. But my impression was that like my body wasn't together. So maybe. I don't know. And so, I just went back to go to sleep. On the next day, um-- [short pause] next day was the first time that I really saw him. Um-- [11 second pause]

I-- we spoke on the phone first and he asked how I was and-- I was better but not completely, and I said I'd love to walk by the lake. And he said that no, he would-- he would come by to my hotel and pick me up because he didn't want me to go out alone 'cause I'd get lost, 'cause I didn't know my way around Montreux. (laughter)

So, you know, he told me a time to wait in the lobby. And, it was very cold there. It was, you know, much colder than here. And, you know, I had gotten this like wool cape to wear, and I wound up wearing it as well as like two sweaters most of the time 'cause it was really cold. But it was-- it was clear and invigorating.

So the first-- that first afternoon, we went to the tourism office and got, you know, a little map of the town, you know, all the-- the very practical detail. And-- and then went to one of the restaurants, I think that was (a restaurant), and had tea, which is, you know, tea. A pot of tea and, well, toast or--

As I-- as I try-- you know, as I try to recall that-- that first afternoon, most of-- most of being-- most of that meal was discussing being there, and all of the practical details of Montreux I was introduced to, you know--how to order teas, I mean, you know, which teas and the French things on the menu, and how to talk to the waitresses and, oh, all sorts of things about being in Europe, and how to order vegetarian food, about the things that they put in it like vinegar and cooking with butter, because PB doesn't use butter. And--

Well as we left, as we were about to leave, PB encouraged me to ask any questions that I had about the studies. And I had written down about-- well, about three questions. 'Cause I'm used to not being able to ask questions. So I-- Yeah. (some laughter) Like when he said it, it really-- it really, you know, kind of threw me for a loop, I really didn't know-- I mean, when I told him that, you know, it would kind of be-- be a pleasure because I'm used to asking Tony and he gives me work to do instead 'cause that's the way to learn philosophy. And PB liked that. He stopped, 'cause at this point we were walking out of the restaurant, and the smile came to his eyes, and-- and then we went on.

As-- as I think of it, one of the things that I liked observing in the way that he was, was that he seemed to very much concentrate in the sense of following an idea completely through. We would-- or let's say he would-- he would talk about something or perhaps we would even be discussing something, and he would completely be attending to that and very much expressing himself outwardly or--this is all in quotation marks--but very much here in the body, very much paying attention to the idea that was being expressed. And then when it was clear that its unfoldment had been complete, he would kind of, you know, withdraw, or, as it were, inwardly for a second or so. And-- and there-- I don't know, I really liked watching that.

And one of the-- one of the very practical examples, at times we prepared meals together and he would give me certain things to do. And, there was similarly a pattern that I noticed which I guess is also very much a lesson for me because usually I've-- you know, thoughts coming in the middle and I wander back to my mind. But there's very-- a very clear, dis-- you know, discreet-- although a flow, but there's a very discreet pattern of preparation mentally, the planning, and preparing all the elements and deciding what we were going to do, how we were going to do it. You know, for example, picking out a number of carrots, deciding well three or four, and noting that we had to use the smaller ones for eating and grating, rather than the larger ones and which knife went for the carrots. You know, taking care of that item completely, and all the planning. And then we would do the work of preparation and, you know, clean up the-- you know, some of the dishes and put out serving-- serving dishes. And then, you know, when all of this was done, then we would sit and have the meal. And tea was prepared while the meal was being prepared. And then afterwards, you know, the meal was complete and then-- well we'd clean up or I usually cleaned up. And, you know, again like that was-- that seemed really very much a lesson for me that it had such a good feeling about observing it. Um--

[13 second pause]

QUESTIONS ON THE WORLD-MIND; PB'S EMPHASIS ON BALANCE

S: Andi? Could you-- would you-- could you tell us what the philosophical questions you asked him were?

AD: She didn't ask any. She forgot her philosophical (acumen). (AD laughing)

AT (simultaneously): Oh. No, we haven't. (laughter) Well, my philosophical questions were questions which I can answer philosophically through my intellect but which I, you know, kind of wanted to understand. I asked about the World-Mind 'cause I couldn't-- I can't unders-- you know, I couldn't understand how the World-Mind could act and yet, you know, have its inwardness. And I wish I-- I wish I could've, you know, taped 'cause PB talked for about ten minutes. He said that the World-Mind was like a huge computer and could outwardly act and function and it'll-- its functions are creating and governing, controlling and maintaining and preserving its creation at the same time that it-- or never losing its awareness of its-- of its own essence. And-- [10¾ second pause]

Oh, along that line, he mentioned-- or later, in later conversation, the need for balance. He's just-- I think especially for me, but it seems to be the problem of a few in the group to be able to act outwardly, you know, completely, and yet remember the inner either by a reserve of attention directed inward, or a mental remembrance. As well as kind of the other way--remembering inner but in perspective, which I didn't understand. He stressed balance as very important, and-- or balancing the feelings with the intellect, balancing the practical and outward life with the spiritual or inner quest.

[10¾ second pause]

ASTROLOGICAL TIMING AND AN UNEXPECTED ARRIVAL

AD: You want them to ask you questions Andi? [short pause] If anyone wants to ask her a question, go ahead.

JL: What happened to you during this time?

AT: Pardon?

JL: What happened to you during this?

AD: She doesn't know yet. (bit of laughter)

AT: Well--

JL: Mentally, psychologically, emotionally.

S (simultaneously, very faint): Well tell us, what happened? (some laughter)

AT: What happened to-- well--

AD: Astrologically.

AT: Astrologically. (AD laughing, laughter)

AD: Tell 'em about that Mars on Mars.

AT: The Mars? Well, when I came to the door, I was-- I was taken by cab after all these people, you know, couldn't-- didn't know what to do with me, and-- (laughter) And here-- there I was, you know, Neptune in the 10th house goes to Europe, um-- (much laughter)

Like I could-- couldn't express myself adeq-- you know, adequately and it-- like there-- that seemed like [S simultaneously: No respect.] a perfect-- a perfectly impersonal way to look at my own problem which is that half the time I don't know what to say or how to say it. 'Cause it was perfectly ok to be that way if you were in a foreign country and didn't know the customs and the language. But to get back to, I got (a backward) railroad station and they took me-- instead of, you know, getting me the phone number, they took me to PB's apartment in a cab. And like at the time my head was reeling, I was really in bad shape. I hate the train. And, I kept trying to say, "Well look, I'm not supposed to go, it's-- you know. And there's not an instruction." (laughter)

They took me to his place and the cab driver talked to the man who was, you know, doing the hedges and he took me inside and led me, you know, up the elevator to PB's door. [S: Inside?] So, I rang the doorbell and he must have said something in French 'cause I think if it were in English I would have remembered. But I introduced myself. And he said, "Oh, my. (laughter) I didn't expect you until tomorrow. I have it marked on my calendar." And I thought, "I know just what you mean," 'cause I had looked in the ephemeris, which is a very bad thing to do in the morning, and I noticed that Mars was going to be at three degrees Aquarius sextile to my Sun and aspects to my Sun are very important. I thought, "Oh God," you know. "Tomorrow's the day." So, you know, I just-- Psycholo--

AD: You should use a calendar too.

MENTAL CLARITY AND RIGHT THOUGHT; FORCEFUL OUTWARD EXPRESSION

AT: Well-- well you know (how I have). I'll say this. I saw it from that, you know, sort of beginning period. At times it was very, very easy for me to be very, very-- to keep my mind very, very clear, very clean. And it was very-- it was impressed upon me, you know, absolutely, you know, like right out in front of me all the time as, you know, probably like the clearest lesson, the importance of each thought, how important each thought is. Because, well, when I was-- when I-- when I was pure inwardly, every-- everything went smoothly. And when I had thoughts, maybe they were, you know, questions or doubts or, you know, whatever, things happened. And it was very, very clear, you know, as-- as I've never, you know, quite been so aware of it before. And I think-- and this may be my imagination, but that very clean feeling sort of went away and like the thoughts kept-- you know, sort of came back more and more. It was like I had like sort of made peace with-- with my-- with myself to a certain extent, and like after a while through talking about certain things and bringing back memories it was as if I animated them again and brought back my whole world, which is, you know, very strange. Um-- [short pause]

Very often I would have feelings and no words. You know, not-- just completely no way that-- to express anything. And, well, very, very, very briefly, one of the things that PB noticed was that to a certain extent I held back. I was-- I was speaking with him. And there were times when, you know, even sort of within one sentence I would be very, very quiet. And, he-- like at a certain point, he really encouraged (speech) and I'm-- I (would/don't) remember, but to like really feel so-- fill my diaphragm with breath, and, you know, really speak out and think out and, you know, really do this as an exercise. And, this seems also very much related to the problem of having ideas of-- not in the sense of thoughts but knowing what to do, knowing how to act.

And it seemed that very often-- like the whole-- the whole experience seemed to be-- or, you know, a good part of it was a lesson in just-- in just this, because there were some times when I'd have like-- like a little seed of a thought and like I wouldn't say anything but it was as if like he would unfold it and he'd, you know, talk about a certain thing, like if I had a certain feeling about something, well, you know, we could talk about it. And, like I had talked things about, if I had a certain dream image in the morning, like I have noticed part of it going that-- that, you know, the damn thing just doesn't leave and I find that very often things during the day almost relate right back to that image. And I go well how-- you know, how can you-- you know, somehow, you know, wrench that image out if it's going to be negative or something that I don't want to be living out. And he very, very definitely stressed for everyone not to live out the negative things, to absolutely say no to them. And he said, as the French Swiss say, "It's no, no, no," and he said to really use the will strongly for this. And he said specifically to like throw all attention into the physical work as like an aid to that. And I've been trying it, it doesn't-- it's-- with faith I guess it'll work. And--

AD: No, with practice it'll work.

AT: Practice. And, so, you know, how to-- how to remove those thoughts that are there that you don't really want to have there and how to-- Well, like I've learned a lot of things that were-- seemed to be like the education of my feelings, which aren't really the feelings except that, you know, sort of hidden inner fixity that, you know-- you know, kind of needs an education.

But he also said that at times it would be necessary to really make an effort to call forth a response. It seems that-- well very often they're-- like it's very easy to get into patterns of interacting. And like one of the things that I noticed is that if a situation is there, very often like it doesn't seem right to act right in terms of it, but that like people sort of ask a question which expects a certain answer, and for me to answer in the way that it's expected wouldn't be (that/like) true to what I really feel. And so, there's like a need for some sort of like mental force to be able to, you know, call for, you know, something that would be appropriate to the situation and yet, you know, more-- more-- more my own. Um--

[short pause]

GURU MOUNTAIN AND THE KRISHNAMURTIS; PB'S REJECTION OF GURU STATUS; COMMENTS ON STEINER

S: Did PB speak about any people or like writers or--

AT: Public figures.

S (faint): (Public) figures?

AT: Well, he mentioned that he was living on Guru Mountain, and he kind of kidded about it, he said that it was-- Montreux is this-- is a place of summer festivities but that Krishnamurti comes and a second Krishnamurti, so he calls them Krishnamurti-1 and Krishnamurti-2, the first being the famous one, and he mentioned that he knew both of them. And there's a third-- a third one who-- whose name I don't remember who also comes and, you know, sets up camp, has lectures and discussions in--

And, he didn't-- he didn't say anything about PB living on the mountain, but he mentioned that at other times, or-- so I recorded this before but he said that some of his students apparently become overwhelmed, you know, when they write, and he said, "They imagine a great hermit sitting in the Alps in meditation." And he said that he wasn't to be taken as a guru, and, (you know/well) did everything that he could to kind of counter that image.

PB as he appears is very much-- very much a-- a real man acting in the world and very, very practical at that, very adept, very agile, very strong. For example like when people go to get on an elevator there's a time period when, you know, for a few seconds a lot of people are sort of fumbling around, you know, who's going to do what, and PB's already there on the elevator and, well he could do two things and he'd like-- you know, held on to the bar in the trams and, you know, very, very much alert and--

But see, he spoke about Steiner and said that he was a great admirer of Steiner, and-- (I don't know.) Um-- [11¾ second pause] Should I look for [one word inaudible]

JL: What did he say about Steiner?

AT: Well, he said he was a great admirer.

S: Why didn't you [three words inaudible] about Steiner?

S (very faint): [couple words inaudible] ask about Steiner.

AD (faint): Ask about Steiner?

S (very faint): She said--

AD (very faint): Uh-hm, uh-hm, that's good.

AT: Um-- [17 second pause] I-- I really don't remember.

AD: From the diaphragm.

AT (simultaneously): Lot of-- a lot of-- a lot of my memories are just, you know, unconnected, it's very hard. Um--

REPORTING ON JUNG AND PSYCHOLOGY STUDIES AT THE CENTER

RG: Andi, did he say anything about psychology?

AT: Psychology?

RG: Yeah.

AT: Well, I told-- I told PB what-- what some of the classes have been and what Tony was doing with Jung, and how--

AD (simultaneously): From the diaphragm.

AT: And how--

AD: Express yourself.

AT: And how-- I described what some of the classes have been doing and how Tony was doing Jung and how this was psychology in the perspective of the teachings. And, one of the things that we discussed was how this time appears to be very important for the unfoldment and assimilation of psychology as like a means to, you know, relate this kind of very intellectually scientific culture back to their feelings as kind of a step inward. Um--

[short pause]

S (faint): And you mentioned Mont Blanc. Where is that in relation to Montreux?

AT: That's across the lake. The lake is-- runs east to west, and it's kind of in a southeast corner of Switzerland. And [S: But--] Mont Blanc is actually in France which I didn't know before.

S (simultaneously, faint): How far [few words inaudible]

AK: Right.

S (faint): Share that (experience) of the highest [one/two words inaudible]

S: But that-- remember you're (an artist) [few words inaudible]

AT: Well, I enjoyed looking at it. (laughter)

S: Thank you [one word inaudible] (RG laughs)

DESCRIBING WISDOM'S GOLDENROD AND ITS COMMUNITY TO PB

AT: PB encouraged me to talk, and he encouraged me to tell, you know, whatever I wanted to about the group. He, you know, very often-- well he-- very often, you know, some members, many of whom he had seen, would come up in conversation. And, it was kind of, you know, a-- it was kind of a challenge for me to-- like to really, you know, be as impersonal and as-- you know, as-- as I could. I talked about the Center and I showed some pictures that-- that some of our-- I was going to say Pisces, but Bert had some pictures, he took them too, you know, the day-- a day before like the last meditation. And, Sid Piburn had-- had pictures of the Center which were in four stages of the work and I described, you know, various stages and, you know, kind of how everyone participated, how we had had the two, you know, work days when everybody got together and have-- so many have, you know, really put their dedicated work into it. And, PB made very little comments, very few comments, but was very-- was very pleased to hear, or seemed to be, and seemed often to note everything that I said for his own memory.

He also asked in regard to the Center, the first thing that he said was, whether there was room for an addition or-- And he asked whether the land-- whether there was room for-- or whether-- whether the land could be put to use, whether it was farmable, and wanted to know if it was all farmland and across the lake and, you know, I described how the, you know, kind of bucolic setting that it is. Like I'm really kind of in love with that spot so, well-- you know, 'cause of the lake and just the-- that countryside. And I also-- oh, when-- well one-- a few of the pictures showed upstairs but I said that I hadn't seen it because women weren't allowed upstairs and PB asked if I knew why. (bit of laughter)

And-- and he-- and he asked well, you know, what if-- what if some of the women, you know, came and wanted to stay? And, it didn't occur to me later the possible answers to that question but I mentioned how, you know, few of the ladies come from Ohio and stay in Seneca Lodge and how it's, you know, a half a mile down beautiful lakeside drive and, you know, kind of hidden up in the country overlooking the glen and with kind of a health food orientation. And if I remember correctly they even had a library with a few of PB's books. I couldn't remember. Well-- So, he was very pleased with that too. He just kind of noted that. Um--

[short pause]

EMPHASIZING THE PRACTICAL; CULTIVATING POSITIVE QUALITIES AND REJECTING NEGATIVITY

JL: I've noticed that you-- you've mentioned the number of times that he emphasized the outer and the practical.

AT: Very much so.

JL: Did he say very much about the inner and the contemplative? [17¾ second pause] Or about a balance between the two?

AT: He mentioned balance as being very important. Um--

[9¼ second pause]

AD: Remember that flattering gesture he made about your generation?

S: Don't tell me what (he said).

S (very faint): Well, I don't know.

AD: He says that they tend to be more intelligent.

AT: Oh yes, that-- He says this generation that had-- that has grown up since-- since the war has a far sharper intelligence. But--

S (very faint): [few words inaudible]

AT: Also-- No.

AD: He'll just flatter you now.

AT: Right. But he also said that it's very, very important and it seems so on-- you know, it seems to be in vogue to, you know, write a letter and say, "Well, this is my problem and I--" you know, "I--" For example, I have such-- such a thought with pride that he said-- about the negatives, first of all, they're-- they're out. The negatives are out. And he said, you know, this particular example he said and-- well, you can-- you-- you can think of the opposite quality and then cultivate it, you know, to-- if you notice your faults and failings, there's something that you can do about it, very, very definitely.

RG: Andi, (but now) when you say he said it's [couple words inaudible] what do you think he meant, when he said the negative is out? Obliterate it?

AT: Um-- wait.

S (faint): [couple words inaudible]

JL: Well don't do that.

S: (Perfect.)

S (faint): Go ahead.

AT: Complaints, negativity. You know, half-- half the time when I-- when I-- I hear conversations people say, "Ah, I'm so negative." That's being negative about your negativity. Just-- just this kind of-- but, this is kind of [one word inaudible] at those, you know?

AD (aside): Oh thank you. The supply continues. (some laughter) Good. See, I'm on pension.

S: There it goes! (laughter)

AD: I'm on pension.

S (faint): Put it down immediately.

AT (simultaneously): Oh.

AP: Andi? Did you receive questions from last night? Remember he said the last--

S (possibly part of background): (Well come in.)

AP: How do you make of this?

AD/S(?): Yeah.

S (very faint): [few words inaudible]

AT: Oh. Well, he said that twice, um-- [19¼ second pause] Can't remember the other really. Well, one-- at one-- at one time he said-- well he was speaking of-- no wait. I'll come back to that. On--

[few seconds of very faint background student talking followed by laughter]

AT: Oh.

AD: What'd he say?

S: [couple words inaudible] short (phenomena).

AD: You better walk with your feet.

A LESSON IN NATURALNESS: THE UNDERWEAR INCIDENT

AT: Oh the best-- the best example of all was, you know, kind of a personal one, and it was somewhat embarrassing which-- you know, like it wasn't--

S (simultaneously, faint): Still, are you going to avoid answering that?

AT: No. I said I'll come back to it.

S (simultaneously, very faint): Ok.

RG: You really got--

S (very faint, possibly part of background): Well John just (proved it).

AT: There's-- he said it twice and I-- and I can't remember the other one which is-- happened last night too. But I'll have to-- Ok? Or the best-- the best example was one morning, I was standing in the living room and-- I don't remember what we had just done or, you know, just what but, PB came out and walked like from his room to a curtain where he has kind of a closet, and he was counting his underwear. And I saw but didn't make any-- any appearance of having seen it, just kind of-- kind of, you know, didn't-- didn't-- didn't make any sign of noticing. And so this is-- you know, he looked-- he looked and said, "Ok," you know, "I'll play too," and, you know, went back into his room, came out again, this time he came out with-- (laughter) So he had his shorts on a hanger and, you know, very, very apparently nonchalantly (much laughter) he was wearing stylish underwear and (sitting/fitting) the closet, and-- (more laughter)

I don't-- I don't remember what my reaction was but I kind of, you know, rather-- [S: You know him.] Well, I had-- I had an immediate reaction which hit into like that whole thing that was going on at the time. But I then thought well-- I mean it came to me later that, you know, it was-- it was a clear example that, well, he has no shame, a person-- and a man of this-- I don't have the words.

AD: A man in sahaja.

S: What was that?

AT: Has no shame about a body, the body, yes, he's-- And then later when I was talking to Anna, it just-- it just came to me, you know, what-- you know, what really was there in that example, and that's-- that's-- I'm al-- it's as if I'm always, you know, pointing out my underwear 'cause like (the subjectivity), you know, always is this continual, you know, psychologizing with-- And, after that, I think, it just came-- you know, and after that I just felt like shutting up completely, which I still may. [18 second pause] Ooof.

[tape break]

"TONY IS THERE": ANTHONY DAMIANI AS TEACHER

JL (faint): Do you want to talk about the [one word inaudible]

[Note: Paragraph 259-1 in the text searchable version of PB Visits 1 (Goldenrod Interviews) at https://www.pbarchives.org/archive/document/writing/94 provides corroborating details from AnnDrea Tobin on PB's perspective on direct teaching and his recommendation that students work with Anthony Damiani as their teacher.]

AT: Oh that's-- Well, one time he was referring to a student who was asking-- asking for (him to/his) [one word inaudible] And he said like, "Tony was there, and--" Oh no, he said "(Tell him) he's the teacher of your group. Well, (just as easy) he can (teach) them. And their direct contact is with him, for the teaching of course." [short pause] And especially the teaching. I mean-- [15½ second pause]

Oh, oh, I remember. This was-- this was kind of a-- like when I was still (there), and he said that-- he-- he [three words inaudible] (experience) that were possibly-- or, you know, could only possibly for one-- one other person. And the experience was a psychological state because I found myself thinking of other people and he's not like-- you know, so in a sense I was doing-- I was like possibly--

AD: Running away?

AT: Kind of, right. And-- (bit of laughter) Later-- later he said that-- well later he said, "When Tony was here, I told him that I was suspending appointments until a later time. Now the later time has come." And he paused. And then he said, "The suspension remains. This is based on a general situation." Then-- and then again he said, "Tony is there and he (can give/gives) them what they need." Um-- [32 second pause] But there were two times when PB described to me in a way like what-- what he was doing and he-- he (helped) me in a different way.

[Audio File 1973 0504a (formerly 1973 0504c) Ends]