Sunday, August 25th, 1974

EVENT at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY

with Anthony Damiani (AD)

August 25a, 1974

PB VISIT TALK; L. HOETZLEIN & N. ROSE

TOPIC: PB Visit

SUBJECT: Lawrence Hoetzlein & Nanci Rose

SUBSUBJECTS: Guru, Drugs, Long Path/Short Path, Sex, Meditation

CONTENTS:

LEARNING TO THINK FOR YOURSELF; PB ON NOT BEING A TEACHER

DRUGS AND MYSTICAL EXPERIENCE

THE ROLE OF THE GURU; TRANSCENDENTAL MEDITATION

THE LONG PATH AND SHORT PATH

DEVELOPING CHARACTER THROUGH SELF-CONTROL AND HIGH IDEALS

REDIRECTING SEXUAL ENERGY ON THE PATH

SUNSET MEDITATION WITH PB

THREE PHASES OF MEDITATION

NOTES:

• This talk was the first part of the August 25, 1974 class. The second part (1974 0825b) was Anthony Damian's regular class on epistemology and reflective consciousness.

• CROSS-REFERENCES TO WRITTEN RECORDS: Due to the poor audio quality of this recording, cross-references have been inserted throughout this transcript to assist readers in locating corresponding written accounts in the text-searchable versions of two archival documents: PB Visits 1 (Goldenrod Interviews) (https://www.pbarchives.org/archive/document/writing/94); and Notes on Visits with PB - Wisdom's Goldenrod Community Members (https://www.pbarchives.org/archive/document/secondary/609). Readers are encouraged to consult these written records when encountering unclear passages, as they provide clearer details about the topics discussed. Note that this audio recording captures only a portion of the complete talk—audio for the beginning and end is missing from the archives. For additional material not included in the audio recording, search "Nanci Rose-Ritter" in the text-searchable PDF of PB Visits 1 (Goldenrod Interviews) at the URL above to locate the relevant excerpts and notes that formed the basis of the talk.

TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT 2025 (V14.1a) on the basis of V14r, with six more passes, updated prefatory matter, footer, and audio file name, new cross-references within transcript, altered TOC/Subheads, green highlighting removed to make usable for web, new formatting to accord with new conventions. Originally transcribed by Transcription Puppy, JRM in 2019; reformatted by JRM/JF, with TOC/Subheads by JRM. Archival verbatim transcript – V14.1a.

AUDIO FILES: 1974 0825a. [Note 1: In 2024, REP Studio improved the sound quality of this recording though the audio quality remains very poor due to the condition of the original source material. Listeners should expect substantial portions of inaudible or unclear dialogue. Note 2: Audio for the beginning and end of this talk is missing from the archives.]

1974 08/25a at Wisdom's Goldenrod

PB Visit Talk; L. Hoetzlein & N. Rose

Archival Verbatim Transcript

[Audio File 1974 0825a Begins]

LEARNING TO THINK FOR YOURSELF; PB ON NOT BEING A TEACHER

LH: --and that way they're content, but that you should [inaudible] But, you should not be deceived like that but-- One's gotta do the work oneself, and no one can do it (for him). The teacher can lead us to the path but you have to walk the path yourself [Ref: PB Visits 69-8].

And he-- he pulled off [inaudible] I've always wanted [inaudible] the time he was speaking in Ithaca [inaudible] One-- in connection with PB's emphasis on relying on yourself he asked-- he asked us impersonally a lot of questions about what we were doing in the group here. And we told him in particular about the dialectic that was going on with the-- I mean with the, you know, Hindu and Buddhist points of view. And, we talked to him about that. He said it was good that we're-- we're carrying on an ancient argument. And I was surprised, he said not because you would find any synthesis but rather because by exploring all different points of views (you can see) [inaudible] disagreement that there was and maybe get frustrated and learn to think for ourselves [Ref: PB Visits 247-3].

Oh, and also about the teacher thing. He told us very hard not to look on him as a teacher because, you know, we (look at) Tony as a teacher and PB as Tony's teacher and, you know, if you listen to (him) and-- (laughter, student words)

And he also told us how-- how Tony really resents being-- being called teacher and having us look up to him as teacher, but I see it-- And PB finally said, "Well look, I don't-- I've never accepted payment of my students. And, I mean he does the same thing here, he never takes [inaudible] same time. Understand teachers can take [inaudible] and I think that Tony can take (you with him so), and now you see how it is." (laughter)

[few seconds of highly inaudible student comments, laughter]

[13 second pause]

DRUGS AND MYSTICAL EXPERIENCE

S (very faint): [inaudible]

LH: About drugs? [Ref. PB Visits 153-2.] Yes. Did (he lay) anything out when we got back? When we told PB that we had in the past taken drugs, that we, you know, experimented with drugs, he said we're just going to (ask) in particular what our mystic experience in-- I guess just call it experience, and for (our) [inaudible] experience. And, it's not important what the experiences were but that the [inaudible]

S: Or? (laughter)

LH: When we got finished PB said simply that the drug experience was-- well I asked him how would he view those experiences, are they real or not. And he said, well, they're real drug experiences. But that as far as the mystic experience goes that they don't compare to the real thing, that they're a-- they're a reflection of the real. And that-- in fact that in men they could prevent one from coming to the real mystical experience. And-- "Well, that's personal," he said. That you're going to probably have to wait three or four years before [inaudible] so there's some (life there), because there's-- all those things will kind of interfere.

S (simultaneously): Loud! I can't hear you.

LH: Should I repeat that?

S: Yeah.

S: Yeah.

LH: "Well, that's personal." PB told us that we're probably going to have to wait three or four years so that all the impressions from those experiences have died away. And whether-- because they will interfere with our making any progress and that they'll interfere with our coming-- (coming to) anyone (whose) experience(d) a mystic realization. And that our meditations are going to have to be very low key for the next two or three years until-- that's all part of our past. And he was-- he was very emphatic that there's, you know-- there's no-- there's no room for it in the path. That it's just a definite hindrance and a definite-- a definite distraction [inaudible] [14 second pause] You may not follow the quest until it's [inaudible]

THE ROLE OF THE GURU; TRANSCENDENTAL MEDITATION

LH, cont.: Well, going back to the guru, he said by definition the guru, when he takes on responsibility for the student's development [Ref: PB Visits 69-8]. And he said that means not only for the spiritual development but also the student's physical and moral development too.

NR (faint): Psychological.

LH: And psychological development that he takes on. Responsible for all aspects of the student's quest, and that this is what the guru [inaudible] And that if I go to another guru, he also has to do it. (laughter)

NR (faint): He talked a little about modern popular gurus too. And he said that they were, you know, beneficial in showing (views that--) but that all the promises and the great rewards of meditation were very misleading.

LH: Oh, he spoke about Transcendental Meditation [Ref: PB Visits 69-8]. And he related a conversation he just had with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. And, he said that in speaking to him he'd-- he asked him why he was spreading all these lies about mantra yoga 'cause he knew that mantra yoga wasn't-- wouldn't fulfill all the promises that he was making about. And Maharishi said, "Yes, I know, they don't but, at least they bring people to it and maybe they'll go on from there." So, I guess Maharishi's, you know, well aware of this. And [inaudible] He respected that answer. It was good at least that Transcendental Meditation would bring these people to the-- to meditation, even though mantra meditation is an elementary form. But at least it was a beginning.

NR: And PB said that several of the popular teachers today have been-- you know, run into him and asked him to (teach them) and he refused, said that he was on an independent path [Ref: PB Visits 69-9] and that he--

S (very faint): [inaudible]

NR (faint): Good question.

S (very faint): [inaudible]

LH: His-- he--

S (very faint): [inaudible]

S (very faint): Uh-hm.

LH: Yeah.

S (very faint): [inaudible]

LH: That's (really now) too specific.

S (very faint): Did he talk about--

LH: And he didn't say anything negative about any of them.

S (very faint): (What'd he say?)

LH: He just said that-- that he was on an independent path.

S (very faint): [inaudible]

LH: Yeah, we know. Kirpal Singh died a few days ago. [11½ second pause] Well then finally we asked him what would be the quickest way of coming to a realization of the Truth. (laughing)

S (very faint): That's (good).

S (very faint): That's (good).

THE LONG PATH AND SHORT PATH

LH: And he went into a really really nice talk about the fact that our-- our quest is made up of two paths, that there's a long path and a short path. And he said that we have to each walk those paths but that the short path doesn't cancel [inaudible] (one's own) development. Mostly because I guess you're not frustrated enough to take it.

S (very faint): [inaudible]

LH: But he said the first path, long path, is the path of self-development. And it's the way of self-improvement, of looking at one's faults and figuring them out and-- and learning from one's mistakes and it's kind of slow (gradual) process involving (very) long periods of time. And he said eventually one of two things happens for the person on this path. That one gets exasperated and just leaves the quest. Or one realizes the endlessness in that sense, so (its kind of) conclusion can be flipped or slip away. And at that point the short path arises. And then (it's the first--) it's harder to start that way 'cause you're starting the short path because you've decided it's so simple and so beautiful but-- And certainly (non/my) acceptance here. But it was just the way he said it, turning himself around 180 degrees and of always facing the Overself and not taking off attention from the Overself.

NR: He said [inaudible] Overself, depend on your own Overself. Do everything as if you--

LH: Yeah, it was so-- it was so simple and [inaudible] And technically it's just a-- it's just a game you play with yourself. (laughter) You just-- you just know that you're the Overself and just be the Overself. And he said all-- all the virtues and vices of your personality are fried. And you just need to say "I am the Overself." And then you try to act as if you were. And then you try to act as how you think the Overself would act in a situation. And then you learn from your mistake. And you say, "Yeah, I'm the Oversoul." And he came back to that later and [inaudible] [14½ second pause]

DEVELOPING CHARACTER THROUGH SELF-CONTROL AND HIGH IDEALS

LH, cont.: There's no perspective probably. All the stuff we had written down he saw just-- you know, just looked at it and saw me as like an orphan, you know [inaudible] He said it. (Heading) for a long walk and [inaudible] be back. And then the next day it was time for lunch and-- at another park, that he said more about watching us [inaudible] He said the most important thing for us is developing character. That it's more important than intellectual development or any other kind of development. This is all from character. This-- this is the most important thing that--

And he said that there are two parts to developing character. That the first part is learning self-control. And the meaning of the-- like the meaning of being a human is described by the riddle of the Sphinx, the animal-- the human head on the animal body. That we have to learn how to control our human body since that can be of service of our-- of our human mind. And there's a second part of-- of developing character. It's to have high ideals and that one must set some goal. Set one's goals as high as one knows and constantly uplift one's goals, and to always keep the attention fixed on this high goal. And I-- well I said it sounds like there's two aspects of character development [inaudible] other two paths, the one for [inaudible] which I have so long ago. And he accepted. [short pause]

Oh, he gave me an exercise to get up in the morning and he noticed I had a problem. (laughter) He said before you go to-- before you go to sleep at night to actually picture to myself a clock and have (at night set) for the time that I wanted to get up in the morning. And that as you pictured it, at the (very exact) time I should picture the alarm going off at 6 o'clock in the morning--I like to get up he said--and starting the day. And I should try to hold that picture in my mind 'cause I've only-- which I won't get-- each night before I went to bed. That's pretty hard for me to do [inaudible]

S: It is?

S (very faint): [inaudible] (laughter)

RG: Yeah.

S: With the store clock.

S: That's right.

NR: It's funny but I asked him questions about different exercises to do once you're in meditation and meditation on sleep and breathing. And the same thing, remember we went--

LH: This happened, I mean right at the wrong hour. (laughter)

S: Stupid story.

S (faint): Uh-hm.

S (very faint): [inaudible]

NR: On the other hand [inaudible] as if you were invested in the readings.

S: Yeah.

[18¼ second pause]

REDIRECTING SEXUAL ENERGY ON THE PATH

LH: He talked a little, not very long, but [inaudible] wanted to talk a little about sexuality and how much we should be detached versus active at a time [Ref: PB Visits 153-1]. And-- well he couldn't represent our lust. (laughter) He just said it's natural, especially if young people have very strong drives, you know. It's not necessarily our (exception) but-- He also said that (if) they want to reach a point where that'll (become) a real distraction from the path if they (don't develop) sufficiently. And they (related) that point. I suppose it's a point where you-- when it's still very strong in you but you-- but you punch them in, to try to start the suppression then when that energy will be available to you for the rest of your life. Whereas if you-- if you're not really concentrated, you just let it go on and past that point that that energy will die off on its own and it won't be available for you. Or that, you know [inaudible] let's say, at that point you can increase the pressure or redirect that energy and keep it from [inaudible] in another realm, in another form and it will always be available to you. [10¼ second pause] At the same time he said not to worry about it but now is the best time to start going. Should we do [inaudible]

S (very faint): And then it gets bad.

LH: Did you hear that?

S: No.

S: No we--

S: Speak up!

LH: At the same time that he said not to worry about it being a very-- you know, a very natural part of-- of our life now, he said that now would be the best time to start oppressing-- controlling it and redirecting it. And (that was plenty of time, you know, to harness that energy but--) (laughter)

S: Yeah.

LH: Oh, and he said that it was just-- it was just Nature but I mean usually [inaudible]

S (very faint): It's a real doozy, huh?

S (very faint): Uh-hm.

LH: And again it get-- and again he just said that it's just about it and I-- I kept trying to press him to give me, you know, another easy exercise other than the one he gave me. (laughter) He said just forget it, it's just a battle, it's just this-- there's nothing you can do about it. You just have to try to--

S (very faint, possibly part of background): Did you pick one?

S (very faint, possibly part of background): No.

[16 second pause]

SUNSET MEDITATION WITH PB

LH: Well after the meeting he said-- he went back to work for a while and I [inaudible] still there. Oh, and before we left we had asked him if we can call him, come back up and see us for [inaudible] So we went back to (Montreux) and camped out there for a night and called him and [inaudible] And [inaudible]

NR: But just to follow up [inaudible] a real power. We'd just been upset [inaudible] after we left. I was-- I was [inaudible]

S: Yeah.

LH: But we realized there's just a lot we don't know.

NR: PB asked me if I can (send him his) talk and--

LH: I did ask him one really specific question. I asked him if he'd sit at our meditation with us [Ref: Notes on Visits with PB, pp. 30-31]. And he said no he didn't do that kind of thing. And he emphasized once again that he's not our guru and that he's on an independent path, that Tony's our teacher.

S (very faint): Repeat that whole thing.

S (simultaneously): We can't hear you.

LH: I asked him if he'd meditate or if he would watch over our meditation. And he said no, that he doesn't do that kind of thing, that he isn't-- he isn't a guru, he isn't a teacher, that Tony's our teacher. And, we should look to Tony for that kind of thing. But then at the same time he took us for a really nice walk along the lake and eventually [inaudible] us to a park bench we sat down on and watched, you know, the sun set over the lake and we (saw) [inaudible] (laughter)

NR: After our sunset meditation, we can't remember-- Larry, what did he say?

LH: "I really (appreciate it)." (laughter) I do remember though that-- that he really tried to deemphasize that-- that-- for that time anyway, that (by trying to see him) tried to deemphasize the willful aspect of meditation. He tried to set us in this passive mood [inaudible] and-- and emphasized that there's like this feeling of peacefulness.

NR (faint): He said that it's just-- oh, meditation is not good enough. And in fact he said it was (more Na--) Nature who (was--)

THREE PHASES OF MEDITATION

LH: Yeah, he talked about-- just before this he talked about meditation, that there was three phases [Ref: PB Visits 89-1].

S: Yeah.

S: What are those three?

LH: That the three phases of meditation are concentration, and waiting, and finally ecstasy. And he gave us three different concentration exercises. The mantra (was/is) [inaudible] and a gazing exercise is helpful. Once they do a visual concentration. Like you take a white piece of cardboard and you draw lots of-- I mean a circle. Put a black dot in the center of your circle. And you stare, both eyes [inaudible] but not-- don't spend too much time on it 'cause it's-- it's a good thing [inaudible]

S (very faint): [inaudible]

S: Stick with it.

LH: And then he described the breathing exercise as just a general concentration and rest in this [inaudible]

S (very faint): What was the phase of waiting again Larry?

LH: (Waiting?) Just a passive waiting. But when one-- one gets concentrated, and [S simultaneously: So is like--] there's a period of just waiting.

S: The what?

NR (faint): He talked about [inaudible] And he said with the three, the mantra, gazing, and breathing, always remember that they're elementary forms of meditation. That you should find what's better for you and [inaudible] and remember that it's elementary. But you could-- (that/but) you could experiment and-- the drawbacks, and if it's necessary, the mantra is not really necessary. You know, the drawbacks associated with a religion, you know, with the-- with the overemphasis on one form of religion. And it's good for a while but it's not for--

[20 second pause]

LH: And he's-- At least for a time of the day, he said a few times that formal meditation isn't the only way to concentration, that some people just concentrate naturally and that Nature or great art can offer-- or Nat--

[Audio File 1974 0825a Ends]