Talk
Sunday, January 9th, 1977
Verbatim, unedited transcriptEVENT at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY
January 9, 1977
PB VISIT TALK; ED MCKEOWN
TOPIC: PB Visit
SUBJECT: Ed McKeown
SUBSUBJECTS: Nirvikalpa and Sahaja, Jnana and Bhakti, Zen and Vedanta, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and Transcendental Meditation, Diet
CONTENTS:
HOW THE NOTES WERE TAKEN; PROTOCOLS FOR SHARING UNFINISHED MATERIAL; FIRST MEETING AND TAXI INCIDENT
FIRST DINNER: STEINER MUSEUM; PB'S RESEARCH ROLE; YOGA VARIETIES AND TM; NOISE AND MODERN CULTURE; TEA LEGENDS; QUESTIONS ON PB'S WRITINGS; UFOS; BENOIT
QUESTIONS ON KARMA AND WORLD-MIND; TIME AND TIMELESSNESS; NECESSITY OF DOUBLE STANDPOINT
HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS AND BALANCE; FEEDING THE BIRDS; PB'S SENSE OF HUMOR
COMMENTS ON FOOD, HEALTH, AND DIET
MIND AND MAYA; NIRVIKALPA AND SAHAJA; SUDDEN VS. GRADUAL PATHS; JNANA AND BHAKTI; BUDDHISM AND HINDUISM
COMMENTS ON TRUNGPA, CHINMOY, KAPLEAU
AMERICA'S OPENNESS; PB REFUSING TO CRITICIZE; NOT MEDDLING IN OTHERS' AFFAIRS
IDENTITY OF REALIZATION; SAHAJA
DARK NIGHT; SURRENDER AND EFFORT; DRYNESS IN MEDITATION; LONG AND SHORT PATHS
ANECDOTES: EAST GERMANY; TOM'S ORANGES; FINDING A LATE RESTAURANT; PB STAYS FOR DINNER
DISTINCTION BETWEEN SAGE AND SAINT
COMMENTS ON FOOD AND VEGETARIANISM
SHABDA VS. MANTRA YOGA; PSYCHIC SUITABILITY; FINDING SUITABLE PRACTICES THROUGH EXPERIMENTATION
RESTAURANT MUSIC: AMAZING GRACE, THE BEATLES, MAHALIA JACKSON; PROTEST MOVEMENT TURNING TO MEDITATION; CHRISTIAN HYMNALS
BLAVATSKY; THE SECRET DOCTRINE
MOVING HOTELS; LETTERS AND GIFTS; HERBS FROM GOLDENROD
PARACELSUS AND PERSECUTION; SWAMI'S SNAP JUDGMENT; GANDHI TRAIN INCIDENT; ICE HOUSES; OCEAN LINERS
TURNER EXHIBITION; WITCH HAZEL AND SKIN CARE; PB READING THOUGHTS
UFO SIGHTINGS AND GOLDENROD'S FOUNDING; "RESEARCHER" NOT "PHILOSOPHER"; READING PB'S DICTATED ARTICLES
RESTAURANT MANNERS; READING LETTERS; ALAN WATTS; BEING AND KNOWING; TRUTH BEYOND SECTARIANISM
SHOPPING FOR TONY'S CUP; SYMBOLISM OF GOLD AND WHITE
TROLLEY INCIDENT; MAHARISHI AND TM; CHRISTIANITY; DEFINING GENIUS; MEHER BABA; DEGREES OF REALIZATION; MANDUKYA; LEARY AND RAM DASS; SWITZERLAND AS VIRGO COUNTRY; RESTAURANT MUSIC
TESTING PENS; RAMANA'S FOUNTAIN PEN
JUNGLE GURU TALES; VARIETY OF INDIAN RELIGIONS; MEHER BABA'S GURU; PICTURES AND MENTALISM; NOTE-TAKING ACCURACY
INDIAN STUDIES; KNOWLEDGE WITHOUT YOGA; NIRVIKALPA VS. JNANA; BUDDHISM AND HINDUISM; PATHS UNITED; MAYA; ZEN AND VEDANTA; WITNESS; JNANA AND BHAKTI MERGING; MOTHER THERESA
LAST DINNER WITH MELODY AND NOEL; CALENDAR GIFT; CHRISTIAN SCIENCE; ERASMUS; MANLY PALMER HALL; DEGREE SYMBOLS; JESUS AND KARMA; RUSSIAN TEA ROOM
FINAL MEETING; PB'S ENCOURAGEMENT; POSSIBLE VISIT TO ITHACA; CARTER QUESTION
PRECESSION OF EQUINOXES; CLOSING REMARKS AND THANKS
BOOKS / MAGAZINES READ FROM OR REFERENCED:
Paul Brunton, The Hidden Teaching Beyond Yoga
Paul Brunton, The Wisdom of the Overself, "Birth of the Universe"
Hubert Benoit, The Supreme Doctrine: Psychological Studies in Zen Thought
Ralph Shirley (ed.), The Occult Review
Helena Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine
Mahendranath Gupta, The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. Translated by Swami Nikhilananda.
The Mandukya Upanishad
Swami Nikhilananda, Drg-Drsya Viveka: An Inquiry into the Nature of the 'Seer' and the 'Seen'
Bible, John (8:12)
Marc Edmund Jones, Astrology: How and Why It Works
Desiderius Erasmus, In Praise of Folly
NOTES:
- This transcript is based on an oral presentation in which Ed McKeown read from detailed personal notes about his visit with Paul Brunton. The original written notes were not available during transcription. Quotation marks have been used when McKeown clearly indicated direct speech (e.g., when quoting Brunton in first person) or explicitly stated "that's a direct quote." In all other instances, the distinction between direct quotation and paraphrased recollection from notes was not always clear, and quotation marks were applied based on editorial judgment. Readers should understand that unmarked passages may also reflect Brunton's words or ideas as recorded in McKeown's notes.
TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT 2025 (V14.1a) on the basis of V14r, with two more passes, updated prefatory matter, footer, and audio file name, expanded Book List, new notes within transcript, altered TOC/Subheads, green highlighting removed to make usable for web, new formatting to accord with new conventions. Originally transcribed by Transcription Puppy/JRM in 2019; reformatted by JRM/JF 2019-2020, with TOC/Subheads by JRM. Archival verbatim transcript – V14.1a.
AUDIO FILES: 1977 0109a, b. [Note: "Tape" and "Side" refer to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files.]
1977 01/09 at Wisdom's Goldenrod
PB Visit Talk; Ed McKeown
Archival Verbatim Transcript
[Audio File 1977 0109a Begins]
HOW THE NOTES WERE TAKEN; PROTOCOLS FOR SHARING UNFINISHED MATERIAL; FIRST MEETING AND TAXI INCIDENT
EMK: I'll give you some indication of how these notes came about. I wasn't planning to take notes. I was going to take a notebook and sort of jot down keywords and then go back to the hotel room and try to fill in around them. And I guess the second time we met with PB, he noticed that I was taking notes and he started sort of dictating to me. And so I wrote down quite a bit of what he said and the next day told him that I pretty much got what he said verbatim and that I would like to bring it back and share it and would that be alright. And he asked me how-- well my method of taking notes and everything and said that it would be alright, but that there were some of the things that he was in the process of formulating in terms of how they were to be expressed. And he would like for us to type them up and send them back to him so that he could see if they were in the form that-- that was appropriate to be distributed so that there wasn't as much room for misconceptions or whatever.
So some of the things that we're going to read tonight we're going to share-- we're going to read just about everything that he said to us that we copied down of course, but most of the things, we'll indicate which ones they are. Dickie and I both took them down verbatim and then compared our copies and where there were discrepancies in our copies, we took them back to him and asked them-- ask him, you know, to settle the discrepancies and he did.
So there are some things that are-- are the way he presented them but they're not in a finished form. He's asked us not to type them up and xerox them. And, we decided that it would be alright to read them with the qualification that you understand that they're in working form. We're going to ask the tape recorders to be turned off when we read these things just because we had this-- just because we've sort of made a commitment to him not to distribute them. You'll see that there's nothing secret in them by any means. It's just a question that he's not finished working over them yet.
RG: Yeah. We're going to send these back to him so he'll then maybe send us back finished copies of them and then they could be xeroxed and distributed. [Note: The notes referenced here were sent back to Paul Brunton as documented in Ed McKeown's letter of January 1977. However, PB did not have the opportunity to review and return them in finished form before his death in 1981. Both the letter and the notes are preserved in PB Visits 2 (More Interviews), pp. 130-131 and 140-156, available at https://www.pbarchives.org/archive/document/writing/96. They are also held in the Wisdom's Goldenrod archives as individual scan files: 1977 0119 PBI by Ed McKeown.PDF (letter) and 1977 0119 PBI E. McKeown's notes.PDF.]
EMK: But the rest of the notes are notes that I took while we were talking with him either-- The general-- the-- the routine for the days generally were that we met PB at his hotel about 10 o'clock. We were staying in a hotel about half a block away. And we either talked with him for a while in the lobby of his hotel--there was a little sitting-room there--or we went for a walk and did errands or whatever and we had lunch. And then for the afternoon we either sat and talked with him or did more errands and had tea, generally a long tea, and then at dinner. And quite a bit of what he said was over tea or dinner or of course while we were walking.
He didn't-- he approved of taking notes and said that the way we were doing it was good and that he was glad there were two people taking the same things down to check. He suggested-- he said he was surprised that we hadn't brought a tape recorder, that there was a lot of material missed when we were out walking and someone couldn't take notes. So, for whatever that's worth. But, Romaine Stevens and Gillian Ped-Krag--
S: Pederson-Krag.
EMK: Pederson-Krag. [couple words inaudible] We were there for about ten days, nine of which we spent with PB. Well the first day I don't have very good notes because I wasn't taking notes. We met-- we got into the hotel about noon and were told that PB was expected to check in around five o'clock that afternoon. At about seven we hadn't-- we didn't know whether we should call him and tell him we were there or, you know, wait for him to get in touch with us. We didn't quite know what to do. So we decided we'd go out for dinner, and about a half a block from the hotel we decided we should go back and call PB and tell him that we were there, that we were going out and would he like to join us or-- or have a--
So Romaine called up to his room and he said he would be right down. And, he came down to the lobby and we talked, just brief introductions in the lobby. And it was decided that we would all go out to dinner together. And, we went out to get in a taxi and only four people would fit in. (laughter) And-- so PB said he would send the four of us and come in a second taxi. And I said, "Well, I'll come in a second cab." And PB said, "Oh, well he wants to go with me" and slammed the door and the cab left. (laughter) PB and me standing there. (laughter) And-- so-- I-- you know, I've met him ten minutes before. So while we were standing there he asked me what I was doing at the Center and what I was interested in and all kinds of things. I have no idea what I said. (laughter) I don't know what I signed up for. (laughter)
First dinner: Steiner museum; PB's research role; yoga varieties and TM; noise and modern culture; tea legends; questions on PB's writings; UFOs; Benoit
EMK, cont.: But, we joined the others at the restaurant. And he said a few things over dinner, he talked a little bit about Dilnawaz. He had heard from her and he told Romaine who, as you know, knows Mataji-- told Romaine that he wanted to send some of the letters that Dilnawaz had written on to Mataji with the idea that perhaps Mataji could help Dilnawaz get settled or start her dance or whatever she wants to do, her eurhythmics school in India. And-- so there was just a little bit of discussion about that.
He was-- he mentioned the Steiner museum. Most of what I'm-- I'm just pretty much going to read from my notes and Dickie's going to interrupt as he's reminded of things and you can ask questions if they come up. We asked how PB was-- he described how a friend of his had stood on a hill with Steiner watching the original Goetheanum being reduced to ashes. And PB was telling him about how the tears stood in Steiner's eyes watching everything he'd worked for burn. And, we asked PB what he thought of the museum and he said that it was very much unfinished and that Steiner's original plan was to have an interior with all kinds of carefully selected woods, but it just-- it hadn't come off, it wasn't finished yet.
This-- at this meeting PB emphasized that he is not anyone's teacher and that his work is research and putting ideas out for the world in general. He said that we could ask questions, that he would answer the ones he could. He also said, "I may know the answers but choose not to tell you, but that's the way it is."
He mentioned that Arthur had been to see him since Tony's visit and had reported good success with TM, Transcendental Meditation. PB said Arthur had meditated on "Who am I?" for all these years without success, and that people should understand that there are at least twenty kinds of yoga, and that one has to experiment by trial and error until he finds the kind that he is suited for. PB said that "Who am I?" was Ramana's formula but that he himself had never practiced it, having written about it and taught it in his books because Ramana asked him to. PB said that he had been guided from within in his choice of practices before he met Ramana.
He said that the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is adding courses in advanced yoga. (So) he's starting a school in Switzerland, raja yoga for example. He's making Switzerland his base and negotiating to buy land there, perhaps a college.
About TM, PB said "They, the meditators, become more tolerant. It may not suit you but they're entitled to it. So they don't make any effort. They have reason for it." He also said that he would-- Well, let's see. We walked for a few blocks through the business district to a coffee/tea room, which PB said was copied after the ones in Vienna, except for the music. He said they would have had Strauss waltzes playing instead of the jazz that was playing through the speakers in this place. He said noise is the disease of the modern era. The masses need this type of music and it would be wrong to take it from them. But it's also wrong to force others who don't enjoy it to listen to it at such high volumes. He said that's why Beethoven said he wouldn't reincarnate here anymore. (laughter) So--
When tea was served PB mentioned that Bodhidharma had sat meditating-- as he had sat meditating he'd become hungry and reached up and plucked a few leaves from the tree, thus beginning a tradition of tea. He also mentioned the legend that Bodhidharma had plucked out extra eyebrows and that tea trees had grown where they fell. And he said, "It's true. At least it's true that it's a legend." (laughter) And he asked Dickie how to make bagels. (laughter) Whether there was more yeast in bagels or in bread. He said that yeast was magic and that's why Jesus spoke of it in the New Testament.
He said this was an ideal time to ask questions about PB's books. So Dickie asked about "The Birth of the Universe" section on the brain. (laughter)
RG: I forgot what he said.
EMK: PB said, "There's an etheric brain and a physical brain. There are two. That's the only way to make sense of that. Both are in mind depending on how you define it. Until you come to Mind in itself, it is still external." That was a quote. [Transcriber note: Exact beginning of quote unclear.]
About planetary travel and UFOs, PB says he believes in them but doesn't say much about it because he doesn't want to be identified with crackpots and spiritualist theories. But yes, planetary travel is certainly possible. He said look at the rockets men on this planet have built. Is it too much to suppose that beings on other planets could do as much? Gillian was reading a lot of Benoit's Supreme Doctrine [Hubert Benoit, The Supreme Doctrine: Psychological Studies in Zen Thought] while we were there and she asked about Benoit. PB said he's very serious, he came to his understanding through severe physical suffering. But he also added that he hadn't read his book for years and couldn't comment on (his) books themselves.
Questions on karma and World-Mind; time and timelessness; necessity of double standpoint
EMK, cont.: And Dickie asked about this quote in the Wisdom. It's page 33 I think, I'm not sure. The quote "a selective--" about "a selective process inherent in the intelligence of the World-Mind and working always with the immutable law of karma…" (Paul Brunton, The Wisdom of the Overself, "The Birth of the Universe" [London: Rider, 1943] p. 33) Dickie asked about these two factors.
RG: Yeah, I-- We discussed this quite a bit in the last Wisdom class we had of-- it seemed there he talks about two principles, the karma along with another selective process so-- I was particularly inquiring about what-- what was this selective process other than the law of karma.
EMK: PB said many traditions speak of two factors working together to provide equilibrium. The Hindus call them the pairs of opposites, the Chinese Yin and Yang, etc. He says the law of karma similarly works complementarily with the World-Mind to sustain balance. Karma is more important for the human being because he's concerned with his own development. He's thinking about himself. The World-Mind has other considerations. The religious term is God's will. But we can call it the intention of the World-Mind. What the World-Mind needs only the World-Mind knows because it changes from moment to moment. The World-Idea is not static but (are both) constantly changing. This is the final act, the final completion of karma. So that's why there's sometimes instantaneous healing when someone is on the verge of death. He says people, taking a viewpoint in time, would prefer a comfortable universe. But that could only happen if other things were left out.
Then he said, "I'm not defending God. He could undoubtedly have made it easier, but that's the way things are. Therefore it's necessary to cultivate other points of view. We consider time because we're immersed in it. He must cultivate the point of view of timelessness for balance. Time is pushed on you anyway. The other you must reach out for, until your timed life has its background in the timeless. It's there all the time. Eternity is a prolongation of time. Timelessness is being Being." You can't imagine what it's like to hear him say that.
"'Cultivate' is actually the wrong word. We could say immediately switch back to it until it becomes habit. Ramakrishna gives an example of a man courting a woman. His mind automatically flies back to her. Similarly, the mind will automatically switch back. Cultivate means let be what is already there. The ordinary man must be taught a new habit to add to the old habit. The mind will then, as in the example above, switch back without reference to anybody but to Being itself."
And the question was asked, "Is the World-Mind working with or subject to karma?" PB said, "To discuss this, we can go to the Buddha. The Buddha works without a concept of World-Mind to avoid the religi-- religious-- religiosity--" I don't know if that's how you say it-- "that was so strong at the time in India. He says whatever is born must die. Whatever is brought together must separate. Whatever begins, must end. The creating or causing of something must have an undoing. The law of karma works with bringing together and separating, forming and undoing. Actually both cause and effect are there at once."
Concerning whether Ishvara is subject to the law of karma, he as a God is defined and (limited) in the end, but that's unlimited from our point of view. There is a Sun behind the sun and universes within universes. The quote, 'The World-Mind arises within Mind' means one little absolute arising in a greater absolute. He said these problems settle themselves when you get hold of the principle. You must get the key and hold on to it, not just to your single point of view. Both points of view are necessary. Otherwise, you will always be asking, "How can this be?" Do you want to add anything? Is--
RG: So there I--
EMK: The World-Mind of this universe--
RG (simultaneously): Yeah, we also asked whether the idea of the World-Mind refers to one universe or all universes and he said the World-Mind is the World-Mind of this universe. He said we can't know what a World-Mind of another universe would be like.
EMK: "So the absolutists claim that the individual doesn't exist and then they explain Maya as illusion, constant change, and then add inexplicability." He said, "This last is almost an admission of their failure. It's the old religious escape. God is a mystery. We need a double viewpoint of everything and we need to hold them simultaneously to keep them together, but we're still living here. If you're not there, what is there? Something is there which is taking an interest in these studies, seeking knowledge and self-realization. What is it? If it's not the ego, what is it? If it's only one-sided, timeless and absolute, why does it need to seek? You must think for yourself to see."
And after a little while, we were sitting there and I asked him, I knew that he usually went to bed early, or thought he did, and I asked him if we were keeping it up-- keeping him up. He said well ordinarily he had work to do, but that-- and that he didn't stay up so late. But he said, "I'm my own boss. I'll make it up another night." (bit of laughter)
He said, "We must learn from all traditions. Philosophy must be free. You have the right to truth and freedom. You won't lose by it. Nor will truth lose by it."
These-- I haven't organized these by topics obviously. They're pretty much chronologically the way they were given to us. So, the transitions I guess will--
Human relationships and balance; feeding the birds; PB's sense of humor
EMK, cont.: Someone asked about human relationships. Then PB said: "Men and women have a godlike image of their beloved but it's in their mind. That's Nature's way of working. There is a necessity to develop the principal side of the human being so the various parts can check each other like policemen. It's very hard to get objectivity while you're young. You have to be a hero fighting yourself. The more you can attain balance while you're young, the smoother the journey is. Just a calm temper is a help." And he mentioned that the Brahmins had a ceremony for 13 year-olds comparable to the Bar Mitzvah for stressing the importance of morality on young people.
This was our first meeting, I guess our second meeting, (the way) we sort of fumbled paying a check. PB sort of saved bread and we walked out to the street and down this alley full of all kinds of construction equipment, scaffolding. I thought it was like a dead-end. I didn't see any way out down there. And he led us through this-- that little door. And just as soon as we went through the door we were right on the bank of the river. And all these swans and gulls and terns and everything came over and PB took the bread that he had saved and broke it in pieces and handed it to us to throw to the birds. It was very nice.
Then we went back to the hotel and then PB said that we were going to meet between 8 and 8:30 the next morning and he said that he would appear for breakfast. (laughter) Well, the next morning at breakfast, PB made a big point to correct something he'd said the night before when we met him. We'd been talking about this hotel we were staying because it was more expensive than he remembered. And he said that we should find a cheaper place to stay, that it didn't make sense to spend that much money unless we just wanted to do it as a treat or something. He said that he had to stay there because he needed the plush surroundings to-- what was it?
RG: To impress all the people that he has to manipulate.
EMK: Yeah. (laughter) And, the next morning, one of the first things he mentioned, I guess he knew we took him seriously, 'cause he said that that wasn't the case at all, that he could live in a mud hut or the basement or any place, that that had been a joke (besides). (laughter) It was hard to tell when he was kidding.
RG: Yeah right.
COMMENTS ON FOOD, HEALTH, AND DIET
EMK: Real hard. We spent the whole day doing errands with him that day. Actually he was doing the errands and the four of us followed him single file up and down the streets and alleys. (bit of laughter)
There were some comments at lunch about food. He said that spoilage of milk products in the summer is Nature's way of telling you to avoid those foods when the weather is hot. Dickie was drinking carrot juice and he told him to drink it very slowly, that concentrated juices should be sipped to mix them with saliva. Regarding coffee, he said that each person has to decide for himself whether and how much he can drink. He mentioned that he eats bread with his tea to make the tea less disturbing. He said if you're going to be careful about food, you should be consistent and do so throughout your diet.
He also mentioned this a lot, he said it was a shame that organic foods are at people's door and they won't take advantage of them. He suggested twice that we should get enough people to hire a farmer to grow good vegetables for us here. He said you can't separate your physical from your spiritual philosophy. The old English word for "whole" means healthy, heal. You can become whole by being healed physically.
Gillian mentioned that Mexican and Spanish peoples eat hot foods and are explosive, whereas Indians are not. PB said that the difference has to do with early training, that the Mexicans are taught to release their emotions but the-- the religiousness of the Indian culture encourages control, and that these factors counterbalance the hot diet.
MIND AND MAYA; NIRVIKALPA AND SAHAJA; SUDDEN VS. GRADUAL PATHS; JNANA AND BHAKTI; BUDDHISM AND HINDUISM
EMK, cont.: Then there's-- Back to last night's discussion of the inexplicability of Maya and the absolutist position. Well, he had said before if you remember that that word "inexplicability" was almost an admission of their failure.
RG: Yeah. So I-- I thought about that a lot that day. I asked him that night, I said, "Well what did you mean by this almost, you know, if it was almost." And he said, "Well, it was-- this almost was very important," he said that they had solved the problem. It just appeared that--
EMK: He said it was a really big word.
RG: Yeah.
EMK: But on the same topic he said, "The mind can think itself into anything. You can get people to believe in anything. Without any outside influence, the mind can create and believe in what it has created. Why say food doesn't exist and then eat it? If they would only say that the material world in itself is not the ultimate reality that would be alright. The Sage sees the world but he can let it go. To say there is no world, no contact with anything through the senses, is wrong. The mind creates and we must hold on to the dualistic and non-dualistic simultaneously. The materialist stage is first, the belief that this only is real. It is a natural reaction to the world by materialists and children, who are unconscious materialists and have the world of fairies fostered on them by others. At the next stage we discover-- or some scientists and (originists) have said concerning the unreality of the world, namely that God alone is real. We must not overlook the fact that these discoveries are all made in Nirvikalpa samadhi.
"Here you lose all gods and all teachers. When you come out of Nirvikalpa samadhi, there's again this and that. But it's no longer Nirvikalpa samadhi. After it's assimilated, it's then Sahaja samadhi. You can't stay in the non-world of Nirvikalpa samadhi. There are no rules about samadhi." This was a comment on a question about the number of days one could remain in samadhi. He says, "Those numbers are fanciful. Anyone who gives rules about samadhi is an individual idealist who speaks from his own individual experience."
Question: "Is the experience the same for everyone?" This question was asked in here some place, I'm not sure whether the answer comes. PB was saying, "One can't be in the world as a person and exactly enjoying Nirvikalpa samadhi. But does he therefore lose the fruits of it? No, these things cannot be explained by the intellect. They're taken as two states. You have to disappear in samadhi to understand. Without practicing yoga, one can still find the Real. Traditionally yoga is used. Nirvikalpa samadhi is the result of yoga. But there is still the state beyond that: deep sleep made conscious. All roads lead to Rome. There is no cast-iron rule that says this is the way to Reality. Someone may discover a new way. Countries or methods don't matter. The word 'technique' is false. It can come by itself. We should not become sectarian. It can happen to an atheist." PB said he had recently had a visit-- a visitor who wasn't seeking the light but it came to him. Now he can't understand why everyone doesn't see the truth. He did nothing. However PB noted that when this man was younger, he was moderately interested in the studies but had to go to war. After the war he was kept busy by his farm and family until he was in his 60s. At that time the light came to him and didn't leave.
Someone asked about sudden illumination and said that-- well Romaine was speaking, and said that Mataji teaches that there is no sudden illumination but rather a slow continuous growth from darkness to light. That's Romaine's comment. PB said that even within the Zen tradition there's the sudden and the gradual schools. He says the gradual point of view is that the sudden school wants something for nothing. He said, "They're both right. That's the joke. (some laughter, student assents) Why set one against the other? They both have their place."
Concerning jnana and bhakta. "If you attain jnana, you'll attain bhakti. If you attain bhakti, you will attain jnana. They're brother and sister. Holiness brings wisdom because it brings you nearer to the center. Wisdom brings holiness for the same reason. But this doesn't always happen all at once." Ramana told PB that it took three years for him to settle down a bit, that he had no interest in bhakti at the beginning but did when he died. PB then said, "Sahaja is the most beautiful and natural thing. There's nothing to display or advertise."
S (faint): Who did it take three years?
EMK: PB said that Ramana told him that it took him three years to--
RG: Ramana, yeah.
S (simultaneously): Ramana or PB?
EMK: Took Ramana.
RG (simultaneously): Ramana.
S (very faint): Ramana.
EMK: One was [one/two words inaudible] Dickie's part I guess.
Concerning will and intuition and meditation, someone was talking about problems in meditation, whether one should push or stop meditating at times. PB said, "Both will and intuition have something to say. But don't overcook the goose. Meditation shouldn't become a problem. You should be happy that you found something and a way to it. So you can label everything and the intellect will disappear. You can also work yourself to the edge of a nervous breakdown and that's unnecessary."
Again about bhakti and jnana. He said, "There's no ultimatum about bhakti versus jnana. Tony has every right to conduct the school in his way. At the same time, if it's a school of pure philosophy, there should be room for both bhakti and jnana." He said, "It's difficult because-- because some students want only bhakti and they're against themselves."
Question: "Is it possible to understand the role of the physical body in perception?" Answer: "It is necessary to win the materialistic mind away from the mechanistic view that the body is a machine and bring about a more living concept of itself and its body. Therefore we must direct attention to the process of perception for those who need that. They've got caught in the wheels of the machine and they had to be dislodged. Then everything can be seen in its place and used. The same thing is true about the ego. Who's going to bring you breakfast if there's no ego there?"
S (faint): Exactly.
EMK: "The realized person--"
S: Yeah.
EMK: "The realized person can be said to kill out his ego, but there is still the individual difference. He's still using an individual body, but there's only a little flavor of the ego left, as even Ramakrishna admitted. If the ego does not tyrannize over the real consciousness, it's no problem. If it carries out the orders, it's alright. Something has to be there. Each individual reacts in a different way to each experience, whether it's simple everyday experience or the experience of realization, because it's his individual experience.
"Nirvikalpa samadhi has no coloring at all but you're in a trance. In Vivekananda's day, Nirvikalpa samadhi was considered the highest. Hinduism is now getting more knowledge. They're learning from Buddhism, which was once seen as an enemy. Shankaracharya helped stamp out Buddhism in India because it had deteriorated in the thousand years since the Buddha and consequently appeared as atheistic. Shankaracharya was very successful in his debates and what he didn't defeat, the Mohammedans did with sword and flame. The monks had to flee to Tibet.
"The conception that Buddhism is atheistic was a misunderstanding of Buddhist teachings. The Buddha refused to discuss whether God existed or not. He said the house is on fire, get out. Meaning, of course, the house of desires. He knew the truth but didn't want to give everything to everyone. He gave what was needed and was misunderstood. He never said there is no God. All religions deteriorate. Christianity has deteriorated today and look at the Hindus. The priest used to push the widows into the flames with their husbands' bodies believing that one is married to the same mate for reincarnation after reincarnation. That's not true Hinduism. It was added by stupid people. The older a religion gets, the more error it gets."
COMMENTS ON TRUNGPA, CHINMOY, KAPLEAU
EMK, cont.: About Trungpa [Chogyam Trungpa]. PB was very interested in his physical condition, the fact that he was having problems and asked questions. Told that he smokes, PB said that he may smoke to dull the pain. He has something to give, but it's for Tibetans. He's doing it through the West. Westerners can I think he said "absorb" some of what he's doing. PB said he knows a Catholic abbot who was ousted from the Church for trying to purify that institution. He said the guarding attitude can't be helped. They're protecting a tradition that's been passed to them and they won't just throw out what they consider to be treasures.
Said changes take time. But there are times, such as now, when astrologically it is necessary for these things to be hastened. Somebody mentioned the fact that Trungpa had recited a chapter of his own book from memory. PB said, "A photographic memory is easy if you're trained to see and recall pictures rather than thoughts. It's not memorizing by heart. If you concentrate on a picture or page, it will flow into your mind. It's taught at an early age and takes time. If your parents are doing this, you pick it up."
And someone asked a question about somebody named Geller [Uri Geller].
(Side 1 of original cassette tape digitized as 1977 0109a Ends; Side 2 Begins)
EMK: Alright, I'll skip that. Somebody mentioned someone who didn't talk at all. Taught without speaking. PB said well maybe he picked it up from Meher Baba, it's infectious. He said, "But it's good yogic training to shut up for a while." (laughter)
Again on Trungpa, he said, "I like that Tibetan young man. He's got originality. He's got to try to adapt to the age without sacrificing the essentials."
About Chinmoy [Chinmoy Kumar Ghose], he said he was trained by Shivananda. It's the orthodox teaching of yoga when you get right down to it, as Shivananda gave it to him. Concerning Kapleau [Philip Kapleau] and the sudden school, he said some want meditation without discussion and others want discussion without meditation, that there's something for everyone.
America's openness; PB refusing to criticize; not meddling in others' affairs
EMK, cont.: About America, he said it's always been open to new ideas more than any other nation. There's more interest in the studies now in America than in India. Now there is almost complete freedom to say and think what you like. But you can't have the good without the bad.
One of the things-- maybe it's appropriate to mention here, one of the things that I noticed was, you know, Dickie and I both commented on this, was that PB just didn't recognize negative-- negativity or criticism. Like we were-- I especially but the two of us were both pretty impressed with Zurich because it's a really clean city and it looks really good and they have no traffic problems apparent. Everything was very pleasant. Of course we were with PB all the time we were in Zurich. [S: Yeah.] That there weren't many problems. But we kept talking about how clean it was and how polite the people were and how kind everyone was being to us and comparing it with New York and some of the cities we know. And, he just wouldn't accept the criticism. He said there's more peacefulness here in Zurich. He said, "But have you been to the West Coast? The people are mellower. The sun helps make people more genial." He said, "Also in New York, there have been more immigrants wanting to fight their way up. They're more ruthless, but it's all in the game." This consistently happened. Rather than criticize something, he would point out why it was the way it was.
As a note to the above, PB mentioned Ramana's comments about fussing in the ashram. He said there always will be trouble and complaining. If we put this right, something else will come up. Put that over the door. (bit of laughter)
Concerning meddling in others' affairs, maybe I should put this over the door too, trying to convert people and everything, he said, "The first problem is to solve your own problem, get yourself straightened out. But you can do that without forgetting the others or meddling in their affairs." He said, "Some will meddle for a while and quit. There's no rule for everyone."
Identity of realization; Sahaja
EMK, cont.: Again about whether each person's experience of the Real is identical or not, he referred to the 60-year-old farmer that he had mentioned about who had-- had had this experience late in life. He said, "He could have reached it-- he could have reacted in another way, but then it would have been a different experience. The reactions are not important. What is important is to know that the Real exists, to feel that you are That, but to play this role as a person. There is only one thing. If he experiences it, it must be the same as anyone else's experience. He experiences consciousness as it is and so does the other chap. If it's an experience that comes and goes, it won't be identical and at-- it won't be an identical experience. If it stays, it is the same, Sahaja. If you know today what you knew twenty years ago, it's the same. But if you've changed, if what you know has changed, it's not Sahaja. It's a primitive attitude to regard this as another possession, but it's understood you are the possessed one. That's why we call it Grace." Then he said, "Don't make a problem of it." Concerning the dark night, he said, "Those who suffer the agony--"
S (faint): Well, the--
S (faint): I think (for a while--) I thought you weren't recording.
EMK: No, this isn't the part yet that we're not going to record. That's coming up on the next page. Is the microphone back on?
S: Yeah.
S: Yeah.
S: Ok.
Dark night; surrender and effort; dryness in meditation; long and short paths
EMK: Concerning the dark night, he said, "Those who suffer the agonies of the dark night are making their own dark night. It's the Real appearing as darkness." Asked if this was that individual's karma, PB said, "Everything you experience is karma, if you want to introduce that concept. You can call it God's will or karma. You can only recognize that you can do nothing about it. Hand it over to the power that runs the world and sit down to serve it.
"Take it as part of the dream and you won't suffer so much. This too shall pass was Lincoln's phrase during the darkest part of the Civil War. He was told this. He got help. To do this with the dark night, you have to practice beforehand with little things."
And then this-- I-- I don't think this is too personal. The-- he was talking about surrender here. And, I mentioned that often at the Center, there's an emphasis on the individual's making his own decisions without being told what to do. And that it's often difficult to know whether one is being called on to stand back and be passive or, you know, make a decision and summon whatever resources he can muster and take the consequences himself as part of his development. I had a talk with [one word inaudible] about this. I asked whether the ego could decide to surrender in the context of PB's remarks above or whether it was a matter of praying to be allowed to surrender. And I felt myself getting really fumbled up with words so I asked him whether my question made any sense. And he looked straight at me and just nodded his head (and) [couple words inaudible] me. And then he said, "Well you can try. You need not be too conscientious about it, the praying. It may not meet with success but that still will be the result of the prayer."
To someone about dryness in meditation, he said, "If you feel dry and can't meditate, let it go. But it's best to be a little patient until you're used to it. Don't work yourself too hard. If you really can't meditate, then you have to wait for something to unfold."
PB asked Romaine whether she was keeping up with the discussions that were going on here about the long and short paths. He said that the two are emphasized but that the timeless has to be given more importance to get the calmness aspect. One must cultivate the eternal Now apart from whatever other exercise one is doing. That's all part of the short path. And then he dictated a message that he said that we were to bring back. It's the one called "The Long and the Short Path." Dickie's going to read it. [Ref: PB Visits 2, pp. 151-152]
RG: Yeah.
S (faint): Uh-hm.
S (simultaneously): Ok.
EMK: Yeah.
S (faint): Uh-hm.
RG: Turn this off?
EMK: Yeah, would you turn the recorders off please?
RG (simultaneously): Yeah, turn off the tape recorder.
Anecdotes: East Germany; Tom's oranges; finding a late restaurant; PB stays for dinner
EMK: And you'll have to talk louder 'cause when he turns out then you'll say so. [tape break]
It's really unfair to put all-- put all this to you at once and-- This was like the middle of the second day for us. And we at least had some time to go back to the room or whatever. But I hope that we get to type some of it up and distribute it because it was [couple/three words inaudible]
PB had just-- he had to send a letter-- this is kind of funny, he had to send a letter to Germany and he didn't know the correct name for the Germany that he wanted. He wanted it to go to West Germany but he didn't want it to go to the wrong Germany so we looked it up and we found out that East Germany uses the word "democratic" in its name and he got really-- he said, "They've made a god out of evil and falsity becomes truth and they've got the cheek to call it democratic." (laughter, student words)
This-- I don't think Tom will mind if I mention this. When Tom came back, he told the story about the oranges. Most of you probably heard it about PB giving him two oranges, one of which is very nice looking, the other one wasn't. On the inside it was the other way around. The one that was-- looked good was spoiled and the other one was very good. So I mentioned that Tom had told that story and PB said, "Well that's Nature's lesson." Said, "All that glitters is not gold. He didn't have to come all that way to find that out." (laughter)
All this was over empty teacups and it was almost 9 o'clock. PB said he had letters to write that had to go-- and had to go back to the hotel. Leaving, I asked him if we can help with anything and he said, "No, I have to help myself." And after a pause, he said, "But thanks for the offer." Then realizing that we hadn't had dinner, he took us on a hike to find a restaurant open late. He located one where the owner had learned to cook Chinese and Indian foods by correspondence course from Chicago. He made such a big thing of that.
RG: Yeah. (laughter)
EMK: You have-- you have to visualize the restaurant scene because none of us could read German and all the menus were in German. So we'd sit down and PB would read the whole menu to us and then make sure that we each had what we wanted. And, it took a long time to order. So, he got us settled in this restaurant and-- and finally found some quiet tables, and he stopped at the head of the table and he said, "I can't leave you." And I told him that the waiter spoke English and he said, "I know the waiter speaks English but we have so few days together," and he sat down and had dinner with us.
Distinction between Sage and saint
EMK, cont.: So, one of the things that we talked about at dinner was the distinction between a Sage and a saint. He said a saint is someone who is holy, moral, etc., not necessarily wise. Jnana is another matter. A saint has mastered his lower nature, developed love, is devoted to God. A saint may also be a Sage. By implication, a Sage is saintlike but he doesn't necessarily have to follow the ascetic regime that a saint follows. A Sage would try to use wisdom because he has to live among people. He may be bold like Paracelsus or he may be quiet because he doesn't want to live with people's enmity. It is probable that a saint will have samadhi but not necessary. You can be a saint just by your way of life.
COMMENTS ON FOOD AND VEGETARIANISM
EMK, cont.: Then he went from that to talking about ketchup. (laughter)
RG: And I was (going to ask) and have some cake. Yeah, had these fried potatoes and--
EMK: And when I'm taking the notes I wanted to capitalize ketchup because everything is-- (laughter) He says he doesn't recommend ketchup because of the vinegar. If one uses vinegar, cider vinegar is best. And then someone asked about mushrooms and he said mushrooms grow in dark places and true vegetables require light. Mushrooms partake of the darker side of life. Said giving up eggs is the last step in avoiding killing and eating animal products.
RG: In this connection (to me), he also did mention I think a previous day that the white of the egg is less harmful than the-- than the yolk but eggs should be given up.
EMK: We--
S (very faint): [one/two words inaudible]
S (very faint): What?
S (very faint): [few words inaudible] (laughter)
RG: He als-- he also mentioned, we talked about-- about rice a little bit and-- I don't know, there was some-- I know a lot of people here were under the impression that he had said that, you know, one shouldn't eat brown rice but he's-- he eats brown rice. And he said-- he said as you get older it becomes harder to digest brown rice. But if you can digest brown rice, it's a lot better for you. It has a lot more vitamins than white rice.
EMK: We talked about cheese and rennet and he asked questions and I told him about a conversation I had with, well one of the professors up at Cornell about the possibilities of non-animal rennets, and that he had told me, this was in '72, that it was impossible to buy any cheese and be sure that it didn't have animal rennet in it, and that there was no way to get the rennet without killing a baby calf. And PB said, "Well, now I know why I don't eat cheese."
RG: But then I did tell him about Kutter's, you know, cheese and he was glad to hear about it, for us. (laughter) He still doesn't eat cheese.
EMK: So--
RG: But it--
EMK: He said-- he said he wouldn't attack onions. But that's a Brahmin rule and we don't have to copy them. He said all hot food, curry, etc., as well as alcohol stimulates animal passions. Onions can be used occasionally for medicinal values of preventing or curing colds. Garlic is stronger and therefore even more effective. But they should then be taken raw so that their curative effects are not diminished.
S (faint): Did he cheer?
EMK: He said that it's his hope that he will write another book and go into vegetarianism. He omitted it in his earlier books and Ramana mentioned it to him. PB said that meditation is more important and he didn't want to make it too hard for people at the time. But now that meditation is becoming accepted, he can discuss vegetarianism.
It's also important to go into vegetarianism for humanitarian reasons, to show man's cruelty to animals. He said we have maltreated animals. They give us clothing, food, labor and love and what have we given them in return? If one feels that he cannot completely give up meat, he must investigate and determine why he is still dependent on it, why he cannot find sufficient strength from other foods.
He said Vivekananda stayed at a friend of PB's in England. He was surprised to find that he ate meat, Vivekananda. Vivekananda wanted the Indians to be strong and stand against the West. He wanted Indians to become more aggressive and advocated that they eat meat to acquire these qualities associated with meat eaters.
And about people who eat meat, he said if they keep on, one day the feeling of disgust for meat will come by itself. He said that more children are being born into the world who are inclined toward vegetarianism.
Shabda vs. mantra yoga; psychic suitability; finding suitable practices through experimentation
EMK, cont.: Dickie asked about shabda yoga. PB said the answer would depend on which sound level one discussed. He said he hasn't practiced it but knows people who have practiced it and written about it. It's seemingly easy but difficult to get results. Some people have tried for years without success. On the other hand, as a basis, there is a cosmic sound. Some are suited for it and some are not. It's the same level as mantra yoga with the addition of something occult. In mantra yoga, you produce-- you produce the sound you concentrate on. In shabda yoga, you concentrate on a sound which you don't produce. Some are psychically suited to hear it. That's why there's more success with mantra yoga. The idea of a cosmic sound was nurtured by the ancient Greeks and he said it was [one word inaudible] present?
RG: It's a [one/two words inaudible] yoga.
EMK: He said if shabda doesn't work, it should be given up. One man spent 12 years before he gave it up. He could have given it up sooner. He said it's similar to experimenting with various instruments to see which one is suited for. It doesn't take that long to experiment with various types of yoga. You find you have an affinity with some more than others.
RESTAURANT MUSIC: AMAZING GRACE, THE BEATLES, MAHALIA JACKSON; PROTEST MOVEMENT TURNING TO MEDITATION; CHRISTIAN HYMNALS
EMK, cont.: Now this restaurant that we were sitting in had a speaker system that played music through the ceiling and I don't know why I was tied into it. But-- well, at this particular point they were playing Judy Collins' record Amazing Grace. And I asked PB if he was familiar with the song. He said-- he said it was very lovely and asked about its theme and I quoted the first verse to it, which you probably know.
S: No, what is it?
EMK: "Amazing grace (how sweet the sound) that saved a wretch like me! I once was lost, but now I'm [sic; am] found, was blind, but now I see." He said that she had a very spiritual voice and he talked about her and placed her in the era of the late 60s. PB asked if she was around at the time of Joan Baez. He said with a smile, "It's good they made their protest. The protest leaders who turned to meditation are leading others away from protest toward meditation. The Beatles were the largest. They were mantrists. Whether the people knew it or not, they were getting steeped in it."
[few seconds of faint background student talking, some laughter]
EMK: We mentioned-- "Let It Be" was playing. I think it was playing. Anyway, we mentioned "Let It"-- the Beatles' song "Let It Be." "When I find myself in time [sic; times] of trouble, Mother Mary comforts [sic; comes to] me, Singing [sic; Speaking] words of wisdom, Let it be."
PB said it was a nice thought. He said there are so many hymns in Christian hymnals with gripping spiritual power as well as nice thoughts. It would be a shame if they were lost. The music over the speakers now is playing "The House of the Rising Sun." (laughter)
S (amidst laughter): Oh yeah? (laughter)
S: (You know), could try it.
EMK: He thought the robot-- The next one-- the next-- this is what I've started. The next one was Mahalia Jackson singing "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands." (laughter) And, it was really something.
So we paid and left about 11 o'clock, just around the time for meditation at the Center, and walked briskly back to the hotel to end the second day. On the way home I kept checking to make sure I had my notebook the way I had checked two days ago to pat my passport. They were really full days. Well--
RG: There was one story on the way home that night, I think it was at night (then/time).
EMK: Dickie talked with him a lot walking down the street.
BLAVATSKY; THE SECRET DOCTRINE
RG: And, I don't know, yeah. He just-- he happened to start talking about Blavatsky, and-- and he said he was a great admirer of hers. A very unusual woman. Very courageous and outlandish. But he said when he-- he was editor of this magazine The Occult Review in London, and, when he went to look for an office, he found out that Blavatsky had occupied the same office, you know, 100 years ago or whatever, 50, 80 years ago and-- and he liked that. We talked about The Secret Doctrine [H.P. Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine] a little bit. I said I had a lot of trouble reading it. He said, "Well, it's an encyclopedia." He said you have to use it just a-- you know, use it as a reference book.
[9¾ second pause]
moving hotels; letters and gifts; herbs from Goldenrod
EMK: Well the next morning after breakfast we met PB at the hotel and he told us he had to change things around a little bit, that he had an appointment, so we took care of moving from the hotel into another one, moving Romaine's luggage and then moved PB's luggage to the other hotel. And then after we met him again we sat with him in the lobby and I gave him the letters and presents from people here.
And, Ella May had asked me to take over some of the-- I think some of you know this-- take over some of the teas and the mints and the herbs and things that had grown around here. And he seemed particularly pleased with them. He asked about the stream, the mint, (and) if it grew right next to the stream. And he said that not only were these herbs unsprayed with chemicals but that they had been grown on holy land, had been sprayed with spiritual essence. PB brought that up twice.
About the gifts, he mentioned that-- It seemed like it was so hard to give him gifts. It seemed like putting concrete blocks on him. But he took them. He said that Vogue, V-o-g-u-e, is the brand of soup that he likes and-- but he doesn't know why people keep sending him other kinds because there's something in all the others that he can't eat, has sugar or salt or something.
Paracelsus and persecution; Swami's snap judgment; Gandhi train incident; ice houses; ocean liners
EMK, cont.: He took us to another vegetarian restaurant and we sat there for a long time. He spoke of Paracelsus, who lived in Zurich by the way, saying he was strongly persecuted but that he had asked for it. He said he insulted the authorities in his own profession and incurred the wrath of the clergy. And in this connection, PB mentioned that a section in The Hidden Teaching which sounds as if he advocates kings being overthrown, since he mentions that the time for that is here. He talked to someone who had stopped at that statement who wouldn't finish the book. Oh I think it was person that-- yeah.
RG: Yeah, yeah, it was (a wrong term).
EMK: Then he talked about a Swami who was a teacher that PB had known and was friendly with. The fellow was friendly with PB and glad to see that PB had written a book and thought he knew what to expect. Said he didn't get past the first chapter where PB discusses the caste system. He got as far as the word "brown-skinned" and threw the book down, he was so sensitive. He would accept no explanation. PB said they never met again. Later one of the man's disciples came to PB and told him that this man had been convinced to finish the book and was now an admirer. She wanted PB to go see him. PB said he wouldn't go see someone who would make such snap judgments. It's dangerous to associate with them. But then, and again consistently, he added that the man had probably been deeply hurt, possibly by the English some time. He said it's the echo of old experience. But still as a guru teaching others, we must set an example.
Then he told a story of Gandhi. You'll notice in this particular chain of stories how it's almost like by association the next story he tells. He told a story about Gandhi who after he had become a lawyer was refused a first-class train seat and vowed at the time to free India from white domination. He said the Englishman who insulted him had no idea what he was doing. (laughter) But-- but then this led to a discussion of air-conditioned trains in India. (bit of laughter) And he asked us if we could guess how they managed to have air-conditioned trains in India in those days.
And that led to a discussion of the ice houses that the English had, stick stone-walled ice houses. Then he asked us if we had any idea of where they got the ice. And of course, we guessed wrong and this led to a discussion of the-- their using whaling ships to go out into the [RG: Antarctic.] Antarctic I guess to get ice to bring back for their ice houses. And that-- [short pause] Oh and this was-- this was the time that he asked whether there were still ocean liners that took passengers across the oceans. And we said yes, that we thought there were, and he said, "Good. That if I come to the States, I prefer to come by ship." He said he was glad to hear they still run.
RG: And, this wasn't-- this wasn't the comment though on his coming, this was just befo-- prior to that.
Turner exhibition; witch hazel and skin care; PB reading thoughts
EMK (simultaneously): This was one of two times that he suggested it.
That afternoon he took us to the art museum to see a Turner exhibition. It was really fine to watch him look-- move in front of each painting, just stand very still and move to the next and all the way around a-- But they turned out to be watercolors and he said that he had hoped that they would be oils. That Turner's watercolors were sketches like notes, and that they weren't his finished pictures.
And then he took us to see the house where Paracelsus had lived in the 1400s. Oh no, this is on the way back, walking back to the hotel he stopped, they had a drug store that carried Steiner products, prescriptions, and he bought some witch hazel. And, walking along the street he was giving a commercial for witch hazel, he's-- He talked a lot about shaving. He said that [S: Wow.] as a-- you know-- (laughter) Anyway, he said witch hazel is a lotion to put on cuts and to stop bleeding. He said he-- he puts it on his face three times a week and that's the reason why his skin is wrinkle-free. [S: Oh. (some laughter)] And he-- he was-- you know, he was talking to him and he was patting his face, "And that's why I don't have any wrinkles." And the thought came up, you know, "Gee, I hadn't noticed that," you know, because his eyes are-- he has bags under his eyes. And he didn't-- I didn't even have a chance to finish the thought and he said, "Of course the bags under my eyes are because (laughter) I have a kidney condition." It got to the point that--
RG: Yeah. You couldn't think anything.
EMK: No. You'd try to say mantra just to keep from wishing for anything, because if you wished for something it became the next thing that he did. And we were sitting at-- we were sitting at dinner one night and he mentioned-- there was a teapot with a ceramic strainer in it, and he mentioned that he had broken his and he was going to a res-- a store the next day to get a replacement. I was just thinking, "Gee, it would be nice to take one of those back." And PB said, "And we'll probably get one for him too." (laughter)
RG: Yeah. And the day-- the day after that we had just finished lunch in one restaurant and we happened to be going somewhere and passed by the other vegetarian restaurant about ten minutes after we ate this big meal. And somebody must have had the thought to go in there because he stops and turns around and says, "Would anyone like to go in here?" (laughter)
S: Who was that? (laughter)
RG: It wasn't me that time. (laughter) Somebody did it, I don't know who. It wasn't me.
UFO SIGHTINGS AND GOLDENROD'S FOUNDING; "researcher" not "philosopher"; reading PB's dictated articles
EMK: This I commented on before. I'm gonna have to go maybe a little bit faster 'cause we've got other articles here to read too. When we met for dinner, PB mentioned in the hotel lobby the newspaper article that Tony had sent over about UFOs. He said, "I have no doubt of their existence. If the human mind can develop the kinds of spaceships we see at the present, why couldn't a mind more advanced than ours fashion and perform more complicated things?" He said, "Obviously they want to remain aloof. If they wanted, they could land anywhere. When they want to communicate anything, they will." Gillian mentioned sightings eight years ago in the Ithaca/Newfield area.
S: Can I ask a question? If there's really an awful lot there, instead of going (with a) speed and that way we could have another meeting and take a nice pace. I think it might be [few words inaudible]
EMK (simultaneously): Well-- Maybe-- either that or maybe I could sort of edit as we go and skip some of the (wisdom) here.
RG: There was one--
S: Yeah, yeah.
RG: What time is it [one word inaudible]
EMK: So it's about 8:30, twenty to 9.
RG: We'll get through it.
EMK: Ok.
S: Keep going.
S (simultaneously): [few words inaudible]
S: [few words inaudible]
S (faint): Yeah, tell him to get faster.
EMK: Ok, alright, ok.
S: [few words inaudible]
EMK: No, Gillian mentioned the sightings eight years ago in the Ithaca/Newfield area and added that nothing had come of it. PB asked, when did Wisdom's Goldenrod get started? When did they begin their activity in the bookstore? And Dickie said 1968. PB smiled and said, "Well, you said eight years ago. Perhaps Tony has started something bigger than he knows."
S (very faint): Oh yeah. (bit of laughter)
S (faint): Oh yeah, that's true.
EMK: This was--
S (faint): [few words inaudible]
S (faint): Last time I was at the library there, (I survived).
S: (Really a/Let me)--
EMK: Just, I tell you what, why don't we do this? Why don't we read the articles that PB dictated and then if there's time I [RG assents] could go on with the anecdotes. Because the things that he dictated are much more substantial than our experiences with him. [Ref: PB Visits 2, pp. 140-156] There are two on the Overself and I think Dickie's gonna read them. And then-- because a lot of the things that he said are comments about the articles anyway so--
RG: The only other thing, in regards to Paracelsus, when he-- there was a little plaque on the wall at the house where he lived and-- I mean you could see in German that there was the word "philosopher" in the translation. But when he came to the word "philosopher" he translated it "researcher." And he did that quite a few times. He wouldn't-- he didn't use the word "philosopher" much and he would use the word "researcher."
AS (faint): Dickie, do you want the tapes off?
RG: Yeah, the tape should be off for--
[tape break]
[24½ second pause]
EMK: This is just a sick point of-- This also shouldn't be taped by the way. I'm sorry. (bit of laughter)
S: Oh God.
EMK: Well that's-- that's all of the typed notes that we're going to read. The rest-- you know, there are other things that he said to us but-- well I don't know how late it is.
RG: What time is it?
AS: Great.
S: Around 9:20.
S (simultaneously): Oh do that tonight.
S: Do that tomorrow.
EMK: Ok.
S: It's ok.
S: There's still more stuff on [one/two words inaudible] yeah.
EMK: Yeah. [couple words inaudible] Can't believe it. I-- I think we're going to get through everything.
[20¾ second pause with faint background student talking]
RG: Well--
[Audio File 1977 0109a Ends]
[Audio File 1977 0109b Begins]
RESTAURANT MANNERS; READING LETTERS; ALAN WATTS; BEING AND KNOWING; TRUTH BEYOND SECTARIANISM
EMK: He had ordered fried potatoes and they weren't cooked enough. And, earlier the waiter had brought cooked green beans in his salad and PB said that he wouldn't send it back if the waiter couldn't be expected to do something he hadn't been asked to do and that it wasn't his fault. And-- now when the potatoes weren't cooked enough, we offered to send them back and have them cooked some more. And he said no, that they'll think you're a nuisance. There's no use criticizing-- or there's no use creating bad thoughts in their minds. The thing to do is remember and specify what you want the next time. Then they will think this fellow has special taste and wants his potatoes cooked more. It won't be taken as a slam on their cooking skills. At the same meal he was-- he obviously had things on his plate that he wasn't going to eat so he was dividing them with us, putting it on our plates. And, someone at the table said-- or, PB said, "It's like feeding a baby," he's putting these things on our plates. And someone said, "I love it. You can do it forever." And PB said, "I won't do it forever. If you're a bad learner, I won't do it. You'd have to learn quickly."
S (faint): That's right.
EMK: This is the meal where he read some of the letters that people had sent. He was going to give us answers to bring back to people but he just didn't get around to it. He had to cut the trip, the visit a little bit short because of something else that he had to do. But, we did-- he did read a couple of the letters and some of the Christmas cards and he was-- well obviously he was doing a lot of dictating of other things to us. I think he had-- either has a weakness in his forefinger or something that makes him-- makes it difficult for him to write. And these letters, it was-- it was almost a puzzled expression on his face why people didn't ask Tony, or other people here if they could use the resources here. Why did they write to him about academic things when there were resources here to get answers. He would, you know-- here he'd brought all (these/his) letters to lunch with him, and--
Well-- He discussed Alan Watts and how when Watts was 17 he brought an article on Zen to The Occult Review. PB and the other editor were very impressed. His intuitions were based on reading only Suzuki's [D.T. Suzuki] two books. The rest came from within. PB called it an obvious case of reincarnation. He said Watts liked the tea ceremony because it was labeled Zen. If it had been labeled something else, he might not have liked it. He was sent to America to get subscribers for a new publication he was working with. And there he married the daughter of an Episcopal minister and didn't go back to England. During the war he became a minister and wrote about Christianity. Within a year after the end of the war he had thrown off Christianity and was writing about Zen again. He had a family. PB called him expert on Zen and a clever boy. (laughter)
Dickie asked about the Greeks and the hierarchy of being and knowing. PB said-- PB said being and knowing are two aspects of one and the same thing. They're indistinguishable from each other. If one is intent on establishing a hierarchy, he can. In action, we have different aspects of mind but in actuality we do not.
The Indians claim that Proclus and Plotinus got their ideas from them. That the teaching spread from India to China to Tibet to Egypt. Lovers of Greek philosophy used the same idea to show how ideas got to England. Truth may be born in any mind even on a desert island. It comes up and gives itself to man and then man gives himself to it. Anything a teacher passes onto him must be justified within himself.
Television was discovered in Europe and America simultaneously. But the same thing can happen with Truth. Neither the Greek claim nor the Indian claim matters. They both got it from the same source but we don't know about this third man. All that broad sectarianism which makes claims we are the source of Truth has no place in philosophy.
[15½ second pause]
SHOPPING FOR TONY'S CUP; SYMBOLISM OF GOLD AND WHITE
EMK, cont.: Oh I have mentioned to you that we were talking about going shopping for teapots and I-- they had these little bitty demitasse, small cups for coffee. And at dinner I said, you know, we should take one of these back to Tony 'cause he's kind of gone on coffee. So the next morning when we were shopping, that was one of the things that we looked for. And PB bought his teapot strainer and then said, "Now did you want to go someplace and look for a cup for Tony?" And I said, "Well, PB, we could shop. You know, we don't have to take your time to go shopping." And he said, "But it's for Tony." So we went and bought a cup. So we went to this department store, sort of Macy's type, and PB led us up the escalators up to the houseware store or to the houseware shop. It had an area about the size of this room just full of demitasse cups! (laughter) And--
RG: Wasn't that (big).
S: Is that true?
EMK: Well [few words inaudible] (laughter)
S (faint): Maybe.
EMK: There were a lot of dishes there though. (laughter) And--
S: Yeah.
EMK: PB looked at a lot of them and then he picked up this little cup which is a little white thin saucer with gold around the outside and a gold cup with gold around the trim. And, he said that this-- this would-- he would suggest this one. He said not only is it the least expensive one, (EMK laughs) but, he said that the gold is for Wisdom's Goldenrod and the white you can guess about. I asked if the white were for purity and PB nodded. He said, "The white light of pure consciousness, not the moral purity some people think. Truth destroys falsity. Turn on the light in the room and darkness flies. Tell him I searched through many cups to find the one that was suited for him." (laughter)
S (faint): Ok, thank you.
Trolley incident; MAHARISHI AND TM; Christianity; defining genius; Meher Baba; degrees of realization; Mandukya ; Leary and Ram Dass; switzerland as virgo COUNTRY; restaurant music
EMK: I got stuck on the trolley, on the tram, on this trip and everybody else got off and was foll-- they were following PB and some woman stepped in front of me and started letting people on and I couldn't get off. And-- so I finally caught up with him just as they were noticing that I wasn't there. And I told PB that I wasn't afraid that I was going to get left, I was afraid I was going to have to push someone down, and he said, "Well, one must be prepared to use force when persuasion fails." (laughter)
At lunch, the Maharishi was mentioned again, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. PB had an appointment with the lady who together with her husband were in charge of TM training in Zurich. PB said she was a student of his books and she didn't like everything about TM but saw good in it. He said that the Maharishi chose Switzerland over Italy for the headquarters of TM. He said one advantage of Italians is that although they're volatile, they manage to work their way through where Anglo-Saxon-- Anglo-Saxons would tear their hair. He said the Italian Church is very corrupt and that the only spirituality is in the monasteries and convents where there is still the tradition of the Italian saints. We were talking about Christianity now so Gillian told the story about-- and she was in Italy when the last Pope was being elected and a lady had asked her if she were a Christian and Gillian hemmed and hawed and finally said no. And so the lady fell to her knees praying since it's believed efficacious to pray for someone's conversion during the election of a Pope. And PB said--
[student fumbling around with tape]
S (faint): Oop. Wait, wait, wait [couple words inaudible]
S: The--
RG: Ok.
S (very faint): It's a new [one word inaudible] but-- (laughter)
EMK: And Gillian was describing this as a superstitious thing and PB said, "Well, in a way she's won. She's converted you to a Christian life. The form is different, there's a difference in details. On her level it's the best she knows, it's very kind. Let her keep it up. Only she has to be instructed. She has to go through what we all did and learn what Christianity really is and not what the Church has taught her. Let them do it but they shouldn't interfere with people who want to be left alone."
He was asked what the definition of a genius is. PB said, "A genius is a man especially well endowed in some skill or matter. He doesn't have to be religious." He emphasized that he never regarded Meher Baba as a genius. Someone mentioned that they thought he had and he was very emphatic. He said, "Meher Baba was mildly insane. (bit of laughter) He had some sort of mystic experience from the old lady. He was a mild religious maniac. He wasn't responsible as a lunatic for his statements. He got some sort of revelation but he wasn't prepared for it. It bowled him off his head. He went into a mixed-up condition. He made statements talking out of his hat. He called himself 'King of the Yogis' claiming that all the yogis in Benares recognized him as king." PB went and asked several yogis in Benares and they'd never heard of him. (laughter) He said, "I don't take him seriously. A man can be mistaken but that's another thing. When you're dealing with mild lunacy, you have to be careful.
"To speak of degrees of realization refers to your experience, not to realization. There is no difference in the thing which is being realized. That's one and the same. But someone is doing the realization and there is a difference in somebodies. Is there a difference in the realization of Meher Baba and Shankara? Are you going to be content with calling both realization among such different individuals? I'm using an extreme example to illustrate the point. There is a difference in degree of what, not of kind. There is one truth, not one realization."
S: Excuse me, how did that come off to you?
EMK: That was a comment at the end of one of the articles on the Overself that Dickie already read.
S (faint): Oh. Well [couple words inaudible] (my) summary of something and why this question's important [one/two words inaudible]
S: (Right.)
S (faint): Yeah.
EMK: Ok, the next was the long piece that Dickie read.
[short pause, flipping through notes]
RG: Uh--
EMK: There was a waiter that was very abrupt to us at the vegetarian restaurant, the only-- the only person all week that was at all abrupt or short or impatient at all. Everyone else was opening doors and, you know, giving us change and running around the counter to open the doors for us, it was incredible. But dealing with this-- this man's abruptness, PB said that he had a very military air and the people in Switzerland, men had to spend a certain amount of time in the military. He was probably just out and that it was probably a result of his military training. Came up that Dickie was trying to make Ithaca bagel conscious. (laughter)
S: Dickie was eating. (laughter)
S (very faint): [one/two words inaudible]
EMK: Well he asked us to find quotes about these two positions, Shankara and Ramakrishna's-- that dialogue. If-- and I know Randy's looking through The Gospel of Ramakrishna for comments that Ramakrishna made about it. If anyone knows of any in Shankara, I would appreciate having some collected or at least be directed to them so I can send it to him. [Ref: PB Visits 2, pp. 155-156]
S (very faint): [few words inaudible]
EMK: Well mainly those two were the ones he was looking for. If you know of something, we could-- we could send it to him.
Concerning the Mandukya Upanishad, I had mentioned to him that the-- that the Advaita class was going to start doing that. He said it's straight Mayavada, using the example of the whirling torch and the illusory circle. But the Mandukya has gone ahead of all the others by stating that mind is the only thing.
He said that he had observed the initiation of 45 people in one day by the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and underwent the initiation himself at the Maharishi's request. He said he observed the presence of something like a hypnotic influence but shooed it away.
He said that he is not surprised that the initiation wears off and leads to disenchantment for some, although the use of mantra yoga is appropriate in the beginning as Ramana too has pointed out. He had been dictating to us all through that, told you what an ordeal it was to order food. He had to read the menu for us and everything and in this restaurant we had to order by 10 o'clock and he had been dictating and everything and we finally put the notes away and he said, "Now what time is it?" Someone said, "It's five till 10." And he said, "My God, we've got to organize!" (laughter)
He said the Maharishi was an Advaitin belonging to the order of Shankaracharya. "The time has come to advance his training beyond mantra yoga. The new course for teachers will be six months instead of the current two."
Concerning the price of the TM course in the United States, he said, "America has to worship the almighty dollar because its pioneers had to build the country from scratch. The virgin territory attracted eager immigrants who flocked there. It's alright. Now they have enough people. America has been more hospitable to immigrants from other countries. Switzerland does not care to host new religions. The country isn't built that way. America is. Some religions have selected Switzerland as headquarters because of Switzerland's neutrality. There has been persecution in the past but it doesn't exist today."
Talked about Leary [Timothy Leary], he said-- had been in Switzerland, he said, "He was extradited finally as a drug addict but not as a religious leader." Commenting about Leary, he said, "Poor chap, he lost his balance. Alpert [Richard Alpert, later known as Ram Dass] had enough sense to get away from the whole thing. He gave up drugs. He tried to persuade Leary to go to India with him. Had Leary listened, his whole life would have been changed."
He said Switzerland is a Virgo country and Virgo rules health and sickness. Pioneers in health foods, for example this Dr. Bircher-Benner [Dr. Maximilian Oskar Bircher-Benner], are Swiss. But he said there's still a desire for meat. So the health food stores are successful because they also sell vitamin capsules which is also ruled by Virgo. But the vegetarian restaurants are failing. This again was at the restaurant with the music and they played "Let it Be" again. Then they played "We've Only Just Begun." Then they played "When I Fall In Love It Will Be Forever." (laughter)
RG: Right.
EMK: Then they played the song from Sesame Street, "It's Not That Easy Being Green." (laughter) I commented about it to PB and he was just smiling at his plate. (laughter)
TESTING PENS; RAMANA'S FOUNTAIN PEN
EMK, cont.: The next day-- the next day was the pen episode which probably most of you have heard of by now. PB had-- we'd taken some pens to him, some of those Pilot Razor Points which have a metal protector around the point and we'd sort of went on different little hunts for different kinds of markers and we collected several different kinds, I had brought a few with me, we found some more and PB was trying them all out.
And, he would-- well, you know, he was-- he spent 45 minutes (in) an hour tr-- you know, talking about all these different pens and didn't they come in any barrel color except black. He said that they should be in good colors, that black isn't a color. And that he wanted-- he was looking for one that didn't have too much ink in it, he said there's no use carrying around all that extra weight. And, he was trying out the different ones and as-- he was writing on my notebook and trying these pens out and I was wondering what he's writing, see what people write when they try out pens. I thought he'd be writing his name or some sentence or something. When we got back to my hotel, I looked it up and he was writing among other things, "I am a pen. I am a pen." (laughter)
S (amidst laughter): Oh ok.
EMK: Then he talked about Ramana's taking a fancy to PB's fountain pen and that PB gave it to him as a gift and that Ramana insisted on filling it himself and that he ha-- when people would come in with the ink and everything and he would fill. (laughter)
JUNGLE GURU TALES; VARIETY OF INDIAN RELIGIONS; MEHER BABA'S GURU; PICTURES AND MENTALISM; NOTE-TAKING ACCURACY
EMK, cont: And then he-- talking about giving gifts, he mentioned the Jungle Guru and that-- I think some of you heard the story about the fellow that had the ashram out in the woods and that he had the people firing guns off at night to keep the students awake and to scare the animals away. Well while PB was staying with him-- I'll just read it. That led to a story about giving this man a special razor which he took a fancy to. And PB said he--
This was-- PB talked about a razor that he used to have that had a container on it that held water because someone had discovered that it wasn't the soap, it was the water that made the shave easier. So this was a bottle with a razor on it but you'd fill the bottle and shaved with it. (laughter) He said but it was too-- he found it was too much trouble to carry around so-- the Jungle Guru liked it so he gave it to him. (laughter)
He said that it was unusual that this Mohammedan, this Jungle Guru had so many Hindu followers. PB said that he was there with the Jungle Guru at the time when the Chinese swept through Tibet and massed on the Indian border, threatening an invasion. The Chinese were fully armed and ready to take India but were deterred by the countries who said they would aid India.
He told of the guard(s) shooting guns to keep the disciples awake and he said that they also had orchestras that came around playing instruments and banging on drums. He said, "I asked him how he came by this special approach." He said he had been a rice merchant with wife and children and he reali-- when he realized the senselessness of his daily routine. He decided to go to the jungle to figure out what it's all for. He settled matters with his wife and told her he didn't know when he would be back and went off into the jungle.
By some method of staying awake he attained samadhi, then he went back to his wife but not to his business. He became a guru. He was a jolly fellow (who'd parted) good friends. When his wife's sister's husband died, he married the sister-in-law as was the custom. PB said he met the two wives and that they were good choices. He mentioned here that it is not essential whether you're married or unmarried. The essential thing is inside you, if that's right. So he trailed off.
Back to the Jungle Guru. It was a tough life. You weren't allowed to wear shoes, they were strict vegetarians, or to eat after five o'clock so that the mind would be light. He had chosen the jungle because it was unpolluted virgin land. There were wild beasts and which was a second reason for the gunfire, and he wouldn't allow toilets. He had to go very far away, and that made for tough living.
There are all kinds of religions in India, all kinds, some queer, some sensible. There is atheism there too. He said he met Meher Baba's old lady guru. He said, "She didn't kiss me though. I wasn't attractive enough. (laughter) I could have had the kiss of enlightenment had I been a bit taller perhaps." (laughter)
Someone asked if they could take a picture. And he said, "Well, at this age it doesn't matter. I'll do it. But if you understand mentalism it's unnecessary. If you find it too difficult then take a picture." (laughter)
S (faint): And you did take a picture though. (laughter)
RG (faint): We didn't take a picture.
EMK: He said that it was good for Dickie and me to each take notes and then compare them for accuracy. And he said otherwise one day the people following Dickie would be Catholics and those following me would be Protestant. (laughter)
INDIAN STUDIES; KNOWLEDGE WITHOUT YOGA; NIRVIKALPA VS. JNANA; BUDDHISM AND HINDUISM; PATHS UNITED; MAYA; ZEN AND VEDANTA; WITNESS; JNANA AND BHAKTI MERGING; MOTHER THERESA
EMK, cont.: He said the people studying Indian thought are quite right in wanting to study what was studied in the past. It's good that they're learning it and they should, it's worth studying. But it should not be allowed to block the way to learning what is particularly needed and emphasized for these times. Otherwise, they stand in their own light. The difference between pundits and seekers: pundits are scholars and seekers are not dependent on the intellectual.
He said, "One can reach the highest without yoga if you fully understand mentalism. That understanding can't go away. If you can get the knowledge, you don't have to get the experience although most people do. The essential thing is to know. Knowledge is of mind, the knowing principle in you, that which knows. Knowledge requires the whole of you including feeling and will, otherwise it's just metaphysics." The question was asked, "Is that knowledge different than Nirvikalpa?" He said, "Yes, of course, in Nirvikalpa there is no person."
Question: "Is that process of gaining knowledge culminated in an experience?" He said, "It may take place gradually or suddenly, although that is uncommon. It is an experience. It must be felt, realized and known. The mystic and yogi totally relies on experience. To the philosopher, experience comes as a result of knowledge." Concerning the yogic state in which the world is thrown out, he said, "If you can throw it out, you can bring it in. If you can't bring it in, you can't throw it out. You can go into Nirvikalpa samadhi and there's no world. But the world is made of Brahman, God's substance. Knowing it in Nirvikalpa is one way of knowing Brahman. Knowing the sensible world is another way. Only the ordinary man doesn't recognize it as such; the Sage does. The yogi normally gets Nirvikalpa, but you don't have to be a yogi to get knowledge. The yogi will have to get knowledge sooner or later."
S (faint): And we end it there.
EMK: Just a little bit more. About Buddhism, he said the Mahayanists come quite close to the Hindus, especially to Vedanta. So much so that some Hindus and Buddhists are suspected of having each other's faiths. The Buddhists have had all these experiences, but since they start at a different point, they give it a different formulation. The Buddhists come to mind, the Hindus start with mind. Once that is established, they teach down with a hierarchy of Gods.
The Buddhists analyze consciousness in a very minute and fine way, even finer than the Hindus, and he referred us to the Abhidhamma. Whether Hindu or Buddhist, it arrives at that point where everything is voided and there can be no further analysis or experience of an individual. Hinduism or Buddhism can't go beyond that. It's all the same. He said there are the-- there are the two paths, there's nothing new in them taken separately. What is new is the emphasis that is trying to be made to bring the two approaches together as paths to the same thing, two sides of one and the same coin. To present these two together as paths with emphasis on the unity is perhaps the only new thing. To keep them together is the point.
He had bought a-- one of those little BIC lighters to light incense with and decided that he couldn't light his incense without burning his thumb with that. And he was trying to figure out what he could do with it. And I said well-- we couldn't-- none of us could think of anyone that smoked. So I said well, we could use it to light incense at the Center. So he said, "Yes, that would be a combination of modern science and ancient wisdom." He said, "Mystics are the greatest eaters, especially Advaitins. The Advaitins like to eat matter." (laughter)
"In Nirvikalpa samadhi there is not-knowing. In jnana there is knowing. Otherwise yoga and jnana are the same and why have two paths?" He said, "The only way we can communicate is by silence. But it's not always possible for everyone to know what we're trying to say." (laughter)
He defined Maya as glamour, a magical glamour, an illusion. This after he led us up and down in front of all these beautiful shops for forty minutes. [flipping through notes] That we've read. He says, "The jnani, whether or not he has attained tran-- the trance state, knows what he is. The yogi without jnana knows what the yogic goal is but not what always is."
That is a-- as far as the statement that-- saying that the Sage does not see the world, he says, "Sages such as Ramana do not go this far. They are working with God without being swayed by the person. It is more correct to say that the jnani, the Sage, does not see the world or experience the world as apart from Brahman. It is a continuous thing; otherwise it is not Brahman. If no sight through his own eyes takes place, then what is steering?
"Nirvikalpa samadhi is certainly a wonderful experience but we didn't come to Earth for that alone. It's merely a duplicate of certain subtle poignant after-death states. In most schools, meditation is prescribed for withdrawal from external-- from the external world. If anyone is able to concentrate long enough and hard enough, for example in Zen, they can have the experience without meditation. But meditation is not done for itself in philosophy. It is done as a help until the mind is sufficiently trained to penetrate.
"Mayavada is a doctrine that declares the world is not real, but something mistaken for real. The illustration of the rope mistaken for a snake is usually cited along with the doctrine. It doesn't deny the piece of rope, it denies the snake. It does not concern itself with discussing the snake. It implies that consciousness in this instance, under the sway of the emotion of fear, produces or invents or creates the illusion of the snake."
Concerning the above statements and Suzuki [D.T. Suzuki] (who) said-- "This is the complaint that Suzuki made to me about Indian philosophy." He said, "He knew Sanskrit by the way." He said, "Yoga at its best is an achievement of mental quiet but Zen is not content with that but seeks, quote 'Direct penetration to reality.'" And he said those were Suzuki's words.
He said, "Our argument was about that. He's saying in another way what we're saying here, the yogic goal is different--not completely, they both practice meditation--from the philosopher. The Zen masters seek direct penetration to Reality. It's hard to see any difference between the statement of the goal of philosophy and Zen. When you come to methods and practices, that's Zen. Even Zen has sudden and gradual schools.
"In Vedanta--" This is a different angle. "Vedanta, the Maya doctrine plays an important part. It's discussed and in Hindu religion too it's brought in but not discussed. It's there. To them Maya is a reality within a reality. They call it a force and have a different opinion of what Maya is." This is in the religion I think. "In the higher schools it is not a reality. We don't mention Maya in philosophy. We mention that Mind has different powers. One power is the playing of tricks with itself. It has different appearances, snakes and ropes. Maya is also called magic. On a religious level it is practically regarded as a real thing, a magical power that is there under the command of a real God. Unfortunately the religious level and the mystic level on the fringe get a bit mixed up. It's a reality and not a reality. On the highest level of Vedanta, it is definitely a non-reality. The only thing is the non-dual Real."
He said, "There was a Swami, I've forgotten his name, who spent years and years in the Himalayas in ashrams and alone. He came down and wrote a large book. He produced a lot of questions about his studies, questions and doubts he wanted answers to. He was a rare instance. One can understand why they trouble(d) him."
Well here's another comment about Suzuki. He said how Suzuki can possibly consider the Mandukya and commentary as a work merely conducive to mental quiet. It shows great penetration, not less sharp than Zen, and it shows it's not taking for granted the burning circle of fire as a circle. It refuses to be satisfied with illusions and isn't that penetration. There's no reason for Zen to put itself up on a pedestal above Advaita. Certainly when it comes to such matters, the Indians can give lessons to Japan. But Zen is Mahayana. Buddhism arose in India and Hinayana and Mahayana were always together. Whatever the Japanese can attain, the Indians can attain. They existed before Zen. You see how this coloring of the ego--here he was talking about Suzuki again--as Ramakrishna speaks of it. There is a national ego because he was born in Japan.
(Side 1 of original cassette tape digitized as 1977 0109b Ends; Side 2 Begins)
EMK: --for--
S (very faint): Witness (consciousness)?
EMK: He says the witness is a provisional term used by the Advaitins to establish truth. It is used as a position in thought and they drop it later when they arrive at the higher position, because they want to avoid the dualistic viewpoint of the individual who attains union with God but maintains his own individuality apart from others but not the ego. But they do not consider it a real entity which is lasting in any way. It's just an idea which they want to use.
The work Drg-Drsya Viveka [Swami Nikhilananda, Drg-Drsya Viveka: An Inquiry into the Nature of the 'Seer' and the 'Seen'] considers a position comparable to the witness temporarily. They trace the eye back to the knower of the eye, consciousness, which cannot know itself. They find the seer and the seen which are both known as mind, as the object is their mind. The eye is not the seer, without the mind it couldn't see. The physical eye is not the seer, it is the seen. The mind is the seer, the knower of the eye. These books all belong to the Advaitic school and help direct thought along the path of jnana, whether you use meditation or not. So it's Ramakrishna's game again, using one thorn to pluck out another, use a sharp keen intellectual analysis to get out of the intellectual analysis, then you throw it away. That's part of the jnana path.
But the farther you advance in jnana, if it is successful, if it really is (seen) and doing its work, it lifts you above the intellect and you begin to absorb bhakti. Bhakti comes in by itself as you become more and more mind. You get sucked into devotion to the idea of what mind is, combining jnana and bhakta. It shows you're getting closer. Then the mere word-- then the mere words which arouses a thought or idea connected with mind automatically produces an attitude of devotion or praise and you'll feel this (greatness).
You can't have advanced stages of jnana without feeling. Feeling is your heart, the deep center of your being which feels. Feeling nobler, deeper, richer, purer. A true jnana experience will be rich experience of feeling as well. Most people imagine bhaktis as individuals in a frenzy of love up dancing around. On the contrary, it is so deep and peaceful that you don't dance about. It's too deep for dancing of that type. The only dancing that would come with it would be slow, graceful, if it came. Jnana and bhakta are not so far apart as you may think. They are at the beginning but not the end.
The man with no desire to dance, who wants to sit still under the tree, may still be a bhakti. There's no universal rule that says you must dance. Each has his own kind of history. The TM leader here asked, "Is it essential to learn meditation to reach enlightenment?" "Usually most people do, but it is not essential. Enlightenment may be gained without it, but it's not usual. It can happen without meditation because in thinking about truth, pondering, remembering, trying to understand its nature, all the things which mentalism teaches, you are unconsciously drawn nearer to bhakti because you're drawing nearer to mind and its delicate refined level of consciousness. You're getting richer in the feeling of it and sharper in the knowledge of it. It requires constant pondering and not making a headache for yourself. So you may get enlightened without meditation."
(It means that) do you have a personal relationship, he said, "They've gone out from their little self to take in another little self. It's developing unselfishness but it's extending oneself into another, into a self out there. It is love, yes, but it's possessive love. It doesn't get you to others. If-- it all in the end goes back to God. Coming down it gets more and more possessive. The same things people use to extend themselves into another can also drag them down. You can see real altruism when God enters in. The ego is really quiet. But those things are rare. The ordinary person can never be like Mother Theresa. She couldn't do it herself unless the higher power were using her. Who was going to kiss a leper? Something is doing it through her. She never studied, I'm quite sure, she's a bhakti. But she doesn't need to. When she dies, she will have it immediately. But she must have had an illumination. She must know or understanding intuitively what is working there. When it first entered her consciousness, she knew then. That was her illumination."
S (faint): [few words inaudible] wasn't there.
[few seconds of very faint background student talking]
LAST DINNER WITH MELODY AND NOEL; CALENDAR GIFT; CHRISTIAN SCIENCE; ERASMUS; MANLY PALMER HALL; DEGREE SYMBOLS; JESUS AND KARMA; RUSSIAN TEA ROOM
EMK: At dinner on December 28. This we thought was going to be the last meeting we had with PB because he told us he was going to have to leave the next day. Melody and Noel joined us and they brought PB a calendar. And one of the illustrations was a photograph of the Earth from 20,000 miles above its surface the astronauts had taken. PB looked at it and located the Sinai Peninsula and the outline of Africa. And he said, "It's wonderful how it all holds together while silly people are fighting." Then he handed me the calendar and told me to look at it and I was flipping through the pages and then there were these quotations and the one that stuck out most was like--
I was sitting there next to him and he hadn't recommended food to us all week, he'd been reading the menus and letting us pick what we wanted. And at this last meeting he leaned over and said, "I can recommend the bouillon." So I ordered bouillon with vegetables in it.
Oh and he-- he was going to have to go back to the hotel so he was just-- he wanted to get something quick so he was eating a cold salad. But he encouraged me to take the bouillon because it was cold outside, we needed the heat. And, he was being so tenderly attentive while I was eating it, he leaned over very gently, "But is it alright?" And then he handed me this calendar and I opened it up and the quotation that I read was the one from the Bible where he says, "I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in darkness but will have the light of life." (John, 8:12) It wiped me out.
He showed me on the same calendar there was this Buddhist thangka, the wheel of existence with the three animals in the middle. And when I saw it, I said, oh, you know, we talked about this in class and it's been pointed out that the three animals in-- represent the lower nature. He said, "Well, the good must be there too." You look closer at the thangka and in each one of those realms of existence there's a Buddha showing the way. And he said, "Yes, that's Buddha."
Talking about Christian Science, he said even Mrs. Eddy [Mary Baker Eddy] couldn't do it. She suffered terribly for two years with pneumonia and died. The doctors had to give her morphine. All the Christian Science couldn't stop her suffering or save her life.
And he found a-- he's looking through (hasn't--) How and Why [Marc Edmund Jones, Astrology: How and Why It Works] or one of the-- one of the astrology books we took over, he found a quote from Erasmus. And he was curious about Erasmus because this was called-- the work was called In Praise of Folly. And he appeared very excited, he said, "Someone has praised folly, I must look that up. That's really good, someone has praised folly." (laughter)
Concerning Manly Palmer Hall he said he must have a lot of Capricorn in his chart. "I've met him, he-- he's got a gravity and soberness which weighs things. He tries to be fair. He's an excellent student who remembers. Astrology was his first love." Tony sent some books to Melody and she said that her mother Noel told her she should write Tony a note. And Melody said, well, she sent Tony a mental kiss. And PB told her to write the note. He said, "I don't know if he's reached the stage where he can see those things." (laughter)
Concerning the degree symbols, the different sets of degree symbols, he said you have to put them together and reconcile them where it's possible. Where you can't reconcile, you must be guided by intuition to determine which symbols are appropriate to you. Jones' symbols are beautiful. They're so in harmony with the universe. Symbolism is one of the most ancient method of instruction. It makes use of the imagination which merges into clairvoyance. True symbolism speaks and instructs you.
PB-- or Melody told about a book that she was reading where the author had said that it was-- it was nonsense to insist that Jesus had had to die for our sins, that we should concentrate on the life he had lived and not the fact that he had been killed. And to say that he had had to do that was nonsense. And, PB said yes, under the laws of karma to say that Jesus had to die for our sins is nonsense.
Noel and Melody and Romaine and-- all of us I guess, it was a-- kind of a rambunctious dinner. Well, compared to the others, you know, it was like we were playing with a beach ball under the tables it was so loud. And then, PB said something about all the Leos at the table really putting on a show. And, in the middle of it they were talking about tea rooms and Noel leaned over and asked PB if he had ever been to the Russian Tea Room in New York. And PB just sort of looked up slightly and said, "The name alone frightens me." (bit of laughter)
FINAL MEETING; PB'S ENCOURAGEMENT; POSSIBLE VISIT TO ITHACA; CARTER QUESTION
EMK, cont.: The next day we met with him just for a little while. I didn't take a lot of notes and I started to and then I sort of felt like-- I sort of put the pencil down. But I did write down some of the things that he said. He said, "The best thing you can do is try to practice what you know. Pray to your own Higher Self to assist your efforts. But you must make the effort. Then you can ask for help. Ask, pray and do what you can. There are powers to help you." Someone said, "I don't know how to thank you." PB said, "Kind thoughts. Kind thoughts to yourself to lift yourself up, to see something of your angelic nature. That's the best thanks for me. The quest isn't that hard really. You are already that which you seek. You've heard it before but it's a fact. It's true that you don't know it. But it is possible to know it and that should be an encouragement."
Someone said, "I wish I could find my way in that direction." PB said, "Don't merely wish." And that's when he said-- there was a pause and he said, "It was possible that I may come to the United States. I don't know. If I do, I shall certainly visit Ithaca." And then he said, "And you can pray for me. I'm a sinner like you are."
[22 second pause]
S: Any more?
[short pause]
S: It-- this book.
S: What was the last thing you said? What was that last part?
EMK: He said, "You can pray for me. I'm a sinner like you are." That's all the notes that we have. Anybody has any questions, it's certainly not (objective). Not about the things he said but questions in general. Somebody asked me before the discussion if he had said anything about Carter. Romaine did ask him about Carter and PB didn't have any comment. I mentioned that I had seen an interview where he had been criticized for making a statement that he prayed several times a day, forget how many, and that Carter had responded in saying that it wasn't the kind of prayer that people thought, that it was like in a difficult situation he would stop and ask for help. PB said, "Well, so he does ask someone for help." Other topics, (there were--) you know, obviously there's an awful lot that we couldn't-- that I didn't take notes on and Dickie didn't take notes.
RG: Ed was pretty fastidious though. (chuckles)
EMK: Yeah, one night, I had-- I had-- he had dictated all this stuff and I said, "Well I'll write this up and bring it back to you tomorrow." He said, "Well, if you do that, you'll be up all night. But of course if you want to." So I was up till 5 o'clock. (bit of laughter)
Precession of equinoxes; closing remarks and thanks
RG: There was one comment about the precession of the equinoxes. He said the astrological precession is a clock that registers but doesn't cause the movements in world culture. It was quite an astrological--
S (faint): Would you please repeat that?
RG: Yeah. The astrological precession is a clock that registers but doesn't cause the movements in world culture.
S: In world--
RG: Culture.
S (very faint): Culture.
S (faint): Culture, culture.
[short pause]
S (very faint): Did he say anything about those movements of world culture?
RG: He discussed some in reference to--
EMK: What was the question again?
S (very faint): Well [couple words inaudible]
RG (simultaneously): Did he discuss any movements of world culture. Just generally the spiritual impetus that is coming up now in the West, in America, sort of coming from India now to America. Nothing very specific.
S (very faint): Did he say that was positive? Did he--
RG: Everything was positive.
S (faint): (New world.)
RG: Yeah, it seemed, you know-- sure, (as well as that).
[few seconds of very faint background student talking]
EMK: He told Dickie to open a restaurant. (bit of laughter)
S: Oh.
RG: What?
S (very faint): [few words inaudible]
RG: He told me what?
EMK: Yeah, I think he did.
AS (faint): I think he asked (Dickie).
EMK: No he was (giving me--) I bought a car like that [couple words inaudible]
RG (simultaneously): What? Mm.
S (very faint): Well--
S (faint): (Well--)
S (very faint): Thank you.
S: Thank you.
S (very faint): Thanks.
S: It was lovely.
[background student talking and laughter till the end]
[Audio File 1977 0109b Ends]
1977 01/09 V14.1a: EVENT: PB Visit; Ed McKeown. Copyright 2025 Wisdom's Goldenrod p. iv