Damiani

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The Idea of Man

CLASS at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY

with Anthony Damiani (AD)

February 25a, 1981

METAPHYSICAL CHART; IDEA OF MAN

with Appendix: JF class notes 1981 0225.

TOPIC: Metaphysical Chart

SUBJECT: Idea of Man

SUBSUBJECTS: Idea of Man in Soul, Four Intellects, Astrology Theory

CONTENTS:

"Cosmic Gizmo" of Demiurgic Intellect is underlie & correlate of I.M. (Idea of Man) in Soul

I.M. in Soul has house structure, through which Soul learns

I.M. in Being underlies, coordinates both

I.M. in Being = 360 rays, degrees; I.M. in Soul = houses; I.M. in Cosmos = signs, planets, etc., natal chart

Cosmic objective, Soul subjective (I.M. in Soul)

Planetary souls, cosmic soul in this scheme

Soul's vision of Intellectual-Principle, & annulling itself

Four Intellects schema

Active Intellect at 3 levels: Being, Soul, Cosmos

Sensible Intellect & Scorpio meanings underlie Pisces

Sensible Intellect, Soul could interpret meanings at all 3 levels

Divided Line: cosmic circuit in 2 lowest sections; dianoetic in I.M. Soul; intelligible intuition in I.M. Being

Methodology of 3 zodiacs, planets of cosmic circuit inside all

Cosmic Circuit & Sensible Intellect

Divided Line & Four Intellects

3fold, 4fold, 12fold, but only one zodiac

Chart analogy: paper = Nous, lines = Soul, the rest = Cosmic Circuit

Subjective & objective: Absolute Soul, Universal Soul, Individual Soul

Metaphysical chart, 4 quadrants, basis for what follows

Chart of the One: 4fold, 7fold

Zodiac in the Soul

To read natal chart is to read Soul

Passions of the Soul

Get to Soul/Overself first, then access to Ideas

Art example

Neo-Platonic tradition view of sensible

Spark, Soul vehicles

Alchemists vs. Plotinus' approach

V.9.13

First two zodiacs: in cosmos and Soul

Sagittarian, cosmic zodiac

Leo, Soul zodiac

8th house Idea & Sagittarius

Aspects

Soul reading Ideas in cosmos

Knowledge of objects, understanding of your Self

Where is meaning?

Subjective and objective, both right, Sage does both

Psychical essences in cosmic circuit

Satori, Soul beyond cosmic circuit

We all share in same psyche, same 360 degrees

V.3.4, self-knower as double

Three levels of understanding

Self of Soul is the Nous, but Soul not Nous, only becomes Nous' mouthpiece

God as Nous in V.3.7

Ascent of Soul to Intellectual-Principle, V.3.9

Commentators make no reference to astrology that's in Plato and Plotinus

Appendix: JF class notes

BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:

Plotinus, The Enneads (MacKenna translation, 4th ed.)
Paul Brunton, The Wisdom of the Overself
Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy: Inferno
W. Pauli, "The Influence of Archetypal Ideas on the Scientific Theories of Kepler" (in C.G. Jung, W. Pauli, The Interpretation of Nature and the Psyche)

PLOTINUS QUOTES READ OR REFERENCED: V.3.3, V.3.4, V.3.7, V.3.8, V.3.9, V.9.13

DIAGRAMS appended to this transcript:

FIGURE 1981 0225a-1-JF. Idea of Man Mandalas.
FIGURE 1981 0225a-2. Twelvefold Mandalas for Each Level of the Idea of Man.
FIGURE 1981 0225a-3. Three Hypostases and Two Levels of Cosmology Mapped onto Metaphysical Chart.
FIGURE IMG 2202-Posterboard Metaphysical Chart.
FIGURE 1981 0225a-5-JF. Saturn in Leo, Five Empties, Sun in Leo.
FIGURE 1981 0225a-6-JF. Four Intellects and Idea of Man Circles.
FIGURE 1981 0225a-7-AB. Four Intellects and Divided Line.
FIGURE 1981 0225a-8. Four States of Consciousness in Four Rings and Four Quadrants.
FIGURE AD Supp 201-top-digital. Quadrants and Rings (Substance and Function).
FIGURE AD Supp 202-digital. Triad, Double Act, and Circle.

Other diagrams referred to are not with this transcript version.

NOTES:

TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS WITH AUDIO FILES OF THIS DATE. The transcript below (a) is of the class actually held on this date. As of 2018, it is a combination of transcriptions of Audio File 1981 0225a (transcribed 2003) and Audio File 1981 0225b (formerly 1981 0225c) (transcribed 2007, for Idea of Man series 2). But they are both the same class. (1981 0225b was thought to be lost in 2003 when 1981 0225a was transcribed.) Audio File 1981 0225c (formerly 1981 0225b) is of an undated separate event on "Subtle Physiology" and has been transcribed as WG Class 1981 0225b. It is possibly part of WG Class 1981 0415 or 1981 0503 but it is still unclear as of October 2023. It was originally transcribed and included in the Idea of Man transcript series and has since been updated and corrected.
The early 1981 class series on the Idea of Man was held on Wednesdays.
The transcriber's notes for this class were more complete than usual and contained several diagrams, three of which have been redrawn and appended. The notes corresponding to the second Audio File have also been appended.
In these classes Anthony Damiani speaks about, among other things, the relation of Soul to Nous and Being, and to the Cosmos; perception; and "teaching the Soul." A large portion of these classes is devoted to Anthony Damiani's laying-out of the components of the three Idea of Man mandalas; herein we can see some of his metaphysical chart methodology. In these classes, one should remember that Anthony Damiani is working out his speculations in the metaphysical chart; therefore his symbolization of astrological and metaphysical chart concepts may not exactly match that in Anthony's later thinking or in Astronoesis.
For further reading on the Idea of Man in general, refer to Astronoesis pp. 147-165, the Editors' Extension on the Fifth Idea. Astronoesis pp. 114-117 is about "Each Idea is a Unique Form of the Whole." Astronoesis pp. 132-133 includes two Twelvefold Idea figures, to which the reader may also want to refer.
Previously printed, distributed 2003, 2007 as part of sets on the Idea of Man.

TRANSCRIBED by jf 2003, 2007 from Audio Cassette tapes; combined class reformatted by jf 2018. In 2024, IT updates prefatory matter and footer, replaces tape markers with audio file markers, alters Topic to make more accurate, completes Book List, adds Plotinus quotes section, corrects typos and some listening errors, adds new notes and alters some existing notes within transcript, moves JF notes into Appendix, removes one diagram and adds seven diagrams and references within transcript to these diagrams, reformats to accord with new conventions. Readable edited transcript – V11r.

AUDIO FILES: 1981 0225a, 1981 0225b (formerly 1981 0225c). [Note 1: "Tape" and "Side" refer to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files. Note 2: In 2024, REP Studio cuts off non-class related material from file b.]

Highlight:

1981 02/25a at Wisdom's Goldenrod

Metaphysical Chart; Idea of Man

[Audio File 1981 0225a Begins]

[Transcriber's note: Anthony Damiani does not speak until near the end of Side 1. However, because the expositions and discussions seem important or have astrological content, I have transcribed much of this. Portions not transcribed are summarized. After Anthony Damiani joins the discussion, the completely verbatim transcript begins.]

AS: Anthony may have some things to add in after we flounder around ourselves for awhile. But it might be good to ask some questions on it. Also it almost seems, that this might be a key to understanding an important concept that we left hanging in a way, an important question. But I don't see yet how it does that, but it seems it might be a clue as to what we're doing. And it's the following. We symbolically, we took this last third here to be the whole of the Demiurgic Intellect [FIGURE 1981 0225a-2]-- you remember all of the things that we did with the last four houses, you know with the Unity of the last four, and then the Matter, the Material Intellect, and then the Form, and then finally the combination of those the actual sensible is here [FIGURE 1981 0225a-3]. And we talked about this whole last third as being the whole-- it represents or symbolizing not only the cosmic circuit, but the whole prior to it, in other words the whole organization of the Demiurge of the fabrication of these vehicles. And all of that's going on, that whole business goes on, and what it's doing is building up these vehicles-- in other words, the planets, the planets organizing certain vasanas in such a way, that they are manifested as your vehicles and so on. So all of that is going on here, we call that sometimes the "cosmic gizmo," (student snickers) although I mean it's really quite an exalted notion, gizmo. (more snickers) That's funny, because remember Richard Platek had that dream once; he saw a cover of *The Wisdom of the Overself* but it was called *Mechanic of the Universe.* Anyway, that's the guy who has to fix this cosmic gizmo. (inaudible student comment, laughter) But then underlying--

Now if we do it in a threefold it's the 3rd third here, which we said also in the metaphysical chart was the Idea of Man structured by the last 4 houses. And we put those around as one zodiac, this innermost zodiac here, where we put around Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces [FIGURE 1981 0225a-1-JF]. And this seems to correspond to what we've done several times, as that Jupiter ring [as led by Jupiter in Sag., or the System of Nature], the four Intellects in that Jupiter Ring. And within this is the whole cosmic circuit. (drawing sounds) Now the symbolism was that the 2nd third of this chart-- one thing, there may be a question here, if this is the whole of the cosmic production, why is it here viewed as part of the Idea of Man? And why is it specifically an aspect of the Idea of Man? It seems that from our point of view anyway, the whole of this cosmic production is going to be interpreted in terms of this Grand Idea of Man. [Note: See Astronoesis, p. 339, Endnote 45, "Universal Man".] I don't know-- if we really can understand that yet.

But underlying that whole cosmic production by the Demiurge is the Idea of Man as it is in Soul, in the human soul. If we spread that around, we symbolized that in the chart as this underlying house structure, this 12fold house structure, which is like the subjective meanings which are going to be imposed on that cosmic circuit functioning. Okay.

Now there always is this question of how the inner or subjective meaning gets correlated with the outer or objective meaning. Here you have something going on in the cosmos (knocks on blackboard), some modification or some aspects going on, and that's the occasion for the Soul inwardly to have a knowledge of itself, okay. Just on that occasion we would say something like that from within the Soul, this meaning or the subjective Idea is projected on to that occasion, and the Soul gets to know something about the Idea of Man, gets something know about the Ideas which it has in itself. Now somehow these two have to be correlated, when something goes on in realm A, then something corresponds to that goes on in Realm B. If they're superimposed on each other then when there's an aspect going on here in the cosmos, and somehow this underlying realm, the Soul can read that or become conscious of that. And becoming conscious of that, or becoming conscious through that, what it's knowing is not just the cosmic functioning going on, but it's knowing something of the Idea of Man which it already has in itself. Okay.

And further, if we go back one more step, we have this Idea of Man in Being, which is even prior to the way it's in Soul. And from this view of this inner [outer] concentric ring, it seems that's coordinating in some way both the subjective Idea of the soul-- Subjective Idea is real bad-- say the Idea of Man in the Cognitive Isness or the Human Soul, and the functioning of the Cosmic Circuit. And both of those in some way are coordinated or pervaded by the Idea of Man as it is in the Divine Mind.

Now somehow in our symbolism there must be some way to understand that because this is prior, this first quadrant here, and gives rise to B and C [FIGURE 1981 0225a-2], it must be somehow that the Idea of Man per se, or the Idea of Man in the Nous, that coordinates the possibility of knowledge occurring in the Soul, when certain things go on in the cosmos, okay. Somehow these reason-principles as they are manifested either in the cosmos or in the Soul, are coordinated or are unified by the Idea of Man per se, the Idea of Man in Being, which he says retains the both the Idea in the Soul and in the Cosmos.

Now, I'm not sure if doing some of the little details of these rings would help, I don't think we ought to do them now. Um, it's too hard. Like there's some questions, well-- we correlated this ring, ring A, this is third A, and third B, and third C okay [FIGURE 1981 0225a-2]. And here I'm doing them according to rings, this is ring C, this is ring B, this is ring A [FIGURE 1981 0225a-1-JF]. Where B is the Idea in the Soul, and A is the Idea in the Cosmos or the Cosmic Man, and this [C] is the Idea in the Divine Mind, the Idea of Man. (drawing-on-blackboard sounds) [Note: Per AB notes, ring A is Divine Mind and ring C is cosmos, which correlates with Fig. 2 where third A is Divine Mind and third C is cosmos.]

Now one thing, we tried it, I think Anthony was correlating, trying to correlate this, the Cosmic, the A, the Idea in the Cosmos Circuit, we said, with the whole planetary functioning and perhaps the signs. This [ring B, Idea of Man in Soul] was correlated more with the houses. And this [360, my notes, see appendix], we said, with the Idea of Man in the Nous. And he tried to give the symbolism. I'm not quite sure if I understand it, either of imagining this point with 360 fixed rays shooting out from it, as if this were the Idea of Man in the first zodiac, which pervaded everything. And imposed on that was this was this 12fold house structure, you set up a certain point with the ascendant, and a certain point would be set up with the midheaven, actually the midheaven will be at some angle, and each of the house cusps would get a degree of Intelligibility, and that would represent the Idea of Man in the Soul. And further, if you imposed on that the whole functioning of the Cosmic Circuit, you know, your chart with all the aspects and the signs, and that would be, again, the third zodiac, zodiac A, the cosmic zodiac. And these rays would in some way tie all of these together.

Now I don't know-- I don't think at this point (inaudible) I don't think it really would help to go through each of the specific details (drawing), now obviously you've got a 12fold zodiac in each one of these. This 12fold according to the first four signs, then a 12fold according to the next four signs in the Soul, and a 12fold according to the next four in the Cosmos. And we even distributed certain dignities with these planets through here. And we could give meanings to each one of these little zodiacs, we could give meanings to Aries or the sign or the first house or the first principle in the Idea of Man, and talk about the Unity of the Being of the Idea of Man, and then the Unity of the Idea of Man as it is in Soul, and then the Unity of an objective, or the Unity of *A* cosmic production, an entity as a cosmic production. And we could go through those (drawing), and try and understand-- well, you'd see the meaning of the first Idea in the metaphysical which would be outside of the whole thing. Which pervades all the way down even into the cosmic circuit. Now-- that probably would be a start to understanding how the Idea of Man in the Soul was correlated with the Ideas which are objectively or reason-principles that are objectively manifested in the cosmic circuit. (inaudible) But-- okay--

[S/AS about not quite knowing 'how' this works]

RG: I would still like to clarify this distinction between objective Soul and subjective Soul, and what reason-principles constitute the objective Soul and what constitute the subjective Soul. And what does the sharp demarcation there mean, if there really is a demarcation. The way we've been doing this indicates one, it may be an illusory way of speaking.

AS: In other words, the demarcation between the Idea of Man as it is in the Soul. And by Soul here, we meant the subjective Soul, the Cognitive Isness. And the way that that Idea of Man is manifested in the Cosmic Circuit, okay, in Nature. I think that's the distinction that Richard's talking about. In other words, these two lower circles in this diagram. Or in our other description, leaving out the third level, if we imagine the whole house structure as the background, the way we did (drawing), and we say that's the way the Idea of Man is embodied in Soul, embodied, is in Soul. Or that represents somehow the vision that the Cognitive Isness has of the Idea of Man, its own peculiar vision. Like the Saturn [in Leo] looking at the Sun [in Leo]. So in some of the quotes we read, he says that the Soul does have a vision of the Idea of Man, has its own peculiar vision. But in order to express that, it needs to come all the way down into the sensible. Unless it reaches down right to sensation, it won't be known to the Soul. So the Soul is going through this whole process, as it were, of interpreting what goes in the cosmic circuit, and through its necessity to do that, or through it doing that, the Idea of Man is getting known to it. And ultimately its own Self getting known to it.

But there does seem to be this distinction we're making between the Idea of Man as subjective, which we symbolized as these houses, and the Idea of Man as it is superimposed on that, in other words through the whole functioning of the cosmos. Well, one way is that in the cosmic functioning it really does seem to be almost embedded in the Matter. I mean I think you would say that in the lowest level, in this third one, the result of the Idea of Man in this zodiac, in the 3rd third, is that these Ideas, or reason-principles, or dissipated essences, are actually conjoined with the material substratum. If not actually conjoined, at least superimposed on. So here you have the Ideas actually manifested, physically. Whereas in this next level up-- they're not physically manifested, okay, they're subjective, they're within the Soul itself, they're the Soul's inner vision, the way that the Soul contains the Idea of Man in itself. And whatever it brings out to interpret or understand what goes on physically, will have to come from this second realm here, it will have to bring it out from within itself. This will provide-- this material circumstance will apply, will be the occasion for that knowledge, okay, but it still will be a material circumstance. The next life, say this material function will be gone, a new material vehicle will be there. And a new participation in cosmic functioning, which will be another occasion.

RG: In speaking of the cosmic circuit that way, aren't you limiting the discussion to just the bodies of the planets?

AS: I think that we're limiting the discussion to the way that the individual participates in that. See you're going to come and say, well look, we could just as well say one of these planets has itself a soul. (RG: Obviously.) Yes we know but -- suppose that's so -- (RG: Yes.) then you're still going to have that distinction for one of the planets.

[RG/AS discussion, speculation on whether and how this works for just Idea of Man or a planetary soul, cosmic soul, World-Soul. End of AS response below.]

AS: . . . Each of these planets itself, as a soul, would have a vision of the Idea. (RG: And that would be its contents.) And that would be its contemplation of the Divine Mind, of the Ideas. And it too would have an inner aspect. And it too would have an outward functioning. I would imagine for a planet per se its outward functioning, its outward aspect would be a whole sphere, the sphere of the planet. (RG: And its inward aspect?) It would have an inward soul aspect.

If we used the diagram we did before with the Saturn contemplating the Sun [in Leo], and we went all the way down to the Sun in Aquarius, [Note: See FIGURE IMG 2202-Posterboard Metaphysical Chart.] this was in Leo and this was in Leo. This whole business here, the Saturn looking to the Sun, or the Sun is its Logos which is informing that Indeterminate Life of the Soul, that is in this second ring here [FIGURE 1981 0225a-1-JF]. That is the Unity of the Idea in Soul. Well this could an individual unit Soul, I don't see any reason why it couldn't also be in fact, it would have to be, also the cosmic soul, okay. The cosmic soul too would contain within itself the Unity of the Idea of Man, all the Essences necessary to manifest, the 36 Tattvas, an image of that or the fabricat(ional) principles that are going to manifest that Essence, and then Scorpio, the way that Idea is contained in a subjective way, or the way that Idea is played out in thought. So the World-Soul would have to have that inner aspect too, prior to its outward aspect. It seems more for the cosmic soul that the inner and the outer aspects are more in harmony, are in coincidence. Insofar as (inaudible) what he says there is that its outer aspect is its own fabrication, right, whereas its inner aspect is its own contemplation. For an individual [human] soul it seems that our inward contemplation is our own in a way, but the outward aspect of it that we're working with, is provided to us, we don't fabricate, we're only gnostic in this realm. In a realm where there's fabrication and gnostic. The World-Soul is both gnostic and fabricative. But apart from that distinction, it seems a similar analysis could be made. See, (knocks on blackboard) I think this analogy may break down with this house system thing. Because I don't know how to conceive how that would be for the World- Soul, except to say that, well it would be its inner vision, it too, if we did it with this ring. Really I guess we should do this whole thing [cosmic zodiac] as the background for a unit soul. (inaudible) We (got to get another ring in here), the whole cosmic version of it and you got to have another individual soul ring here. But anyway--

[S/AS question as how Idea of Man in Nous ring with its 360 rays and the house structure.]

AS: One thing he does say is that the Idea in itself does contain all the possible manifestations of it, and all possible visions by any particular Soul. I mean that was one thing I thought the end of last week, one of the things we went into there was to say well, if this was the Idea of Man in itself, or in the Nous, the outer ring, then each unit Soul, as a Unit Soul, must have something of that Idea of Man, its Logos present to it, would be like the Sun [in Leo] there. And the Essences [5 Empties in Leo] which are going to comprise that Idea, that Unit Soul, and also present in its Unity. And a combination of those two would be the definition of a Unit Soul over here. So it seems that the first two, the very first two houses in the ring [Idea of Man in Soul circle] which comprise its Unity are derived, or are its participation in the prior ring. And they aren't peculiarly its vision if the Soul were to become part, were to go back, if the -- I don't know to say this -- if he stopped being Soul, and just went directly into the Nous now, I'll try it again--

[S/AS on not understanding the diagram]

AS: . . . this question that we ended with last week. . . . in V.3.8, near the end where he says (inaudible), the very last paragraph:

Plotinus V.3.8 (AS reading): "If the Soul is questioned as to the nature of that Intellectual-Principle--the perfect and all-embracing, the primal self-knower--it has but to enter into that Principle, or to sink all its activity into that, and at once it shows itself to be in effective possession of those priors whose memory it never lost: thus, as an image of the Intellectual-Principle, it can make itself the medium by which to attain some vision of it; it draws upon that within itself which is most closely resemblant, as far as resemblance is possible between divine Intellect and any phase of Soul."

AS: And then the end [of previous 2/18/81 class] where Jeanne also had that question about the "summit of the soul", where is the summit of the soul in this diagram, if this is the soul third here, and he talks about the summit of the soul. And then he talks about the way that the soul has this intellectual vision; he says:

Plotinus V.3.8 (AS rereading): "[I]t has but to enter into that Principle, or to sink all its activity into that, . . ."

AS: It seems from the picture that if the Soul were to stop being Soul-- or to put it this way-- (drawing) the Soul does seem to have a permanent vision, a permanently instilled vision of the Idea of Man. And that's apart of its Unity right here. Remember this is from Leo, and this seems to correspond to the way that the Soul is conjoined with that Idea of Man, its vision of the Idea of Man. And (if) that is going to guide it, that informing by the Logos, that way that the Soul is this Logos of the Intellectual-Principle, that's going to guide it through all of its downward hypostasis functioning. It's going to going to guide all of its activity in Realm A [Cosmic], okay, in the 3rd third, and in way it seems it's that vision which is going to have to become actualized through the whole rest of this chart. Now two things seem to happen: one is that facing downwards, in governing the cosmos, the Soul still does have present to it, that vision, the pure soul has that vision. But if that soul really wants to get to know itself and look into itself, look the other way as it were, in places it almost seems he says that the Soul has to annul itself and completely enter into the Intellectual-Principle. Now if it does that, and this third house here of the Soul ring, in other words, if this individual Unit Soul almost cancels itself out in that vision, it would become the Sun here. But this Sun really is the place where it is linked up to the Divine Mind. So it seems that in doing that the Soul would no longer be Soul, it would become one, a whole parcel over into the Divine Mind, and it would just become the Nous. Not that it would become the Nous, but the Nous then would be the Knower in us. As he says, the only way for the soul to become self-knowing or to get self-knowledge, is if it makes itself over into the Nous. He says:

Plotinus V.3.4 (AS reading): "And a man becomes Intellectual-Principle when, ignoring all other phases of his being, he sees through that only and sees only that and so knows himself by means of the self--in other words attains the self-knowledge which the Intellectual-Principle possesses."

AS: Now, I don't know, I was trying to contend that if you go beyond this 2nd third here, you don't have Soul anymore. You still would have the Idea of Man, but this is the Idea of Man in the Nous, there's no longer a Unit or an Individual Soul. And the notion of a Unit or an Individual Soul only comes up when we talk about the Unity of this second ring in, the way that the Idea of Man is in Soul. And he seems to speak as if there are times when a man could transcend-- could transcend that Individual Soul and get access directly to the Nous. Then there are other times, when it seems that, no, even then, even if he has access to the Nous itself, he still must retain some quality of Soul. It's only through that that he could carry it back, that the knowledge of that could be carried back.

S: Do we also speak of the Sun in Leo as the Nous?

AS: See that's part of the question here. In the diagram, if you look at our diagram, in this diagram you'd have to say yes, it's part of the Divine Mind the Sun in Leo. Now what's the relation between this picture here, this conception that the Saturn, the indeterminate Life, looks to this Logos principle in the Sun, the Idea of Man [FIGURE 1981 0225a-5-JF]. And now in this diagram [FIGURE 1981 0225a-1-JF], we draw the picture the Sun here in the 1st house of the Soul ring. In other words, the Sun in some way does represent the Soul's link to the Intellectual-Principle. And it seems like the diagram is saying this 3rd house is the place where you have Individual Soul. If you don't have this anymore then the Sun and these Five Empties will be a separate Logos principle from the Nous. This would revert back-- It really is part of the Nous because it's part of the Nous ring, it's part of the two outer rings [which as Being and Intellect, together represent the Nous]. [Note: See FIGURE IMG 2202-Posterboard Metaphysical Chart.] So if it weren't for this principle of Indeterminate Life, would there be an individual vision of Nous? If there's no individual vision of the Idea of Man, is it an Idea of Man in Soul at all then? Well then it seems it isn't an Idea of Man in Soul at all, it's really the Idea of Man itself in Being, and not in Life. So if this Soul were to sink its vision back into the here, it wouldn't be the Idea of Man in soul anymore, it would be the Nous. And then it would be the Nous that was knowing and not the soul. As long as this 3rd house of this ring is still defined, as a Unit Soul, and as long as the Soul retains its unity as soul, it seems it still is soul and it still has an image in itself of the Nous. But if it annuls itself, then these first two houses of the soul ring, they aren't part of the soul ring anymore, they're really part of the Divine Mind.

S: So at the level of the Sun has available to it all, everything else?

AS: It seems that from the level of access of the Sun it would have access to the level of the Divine Mind per se. Because that Sun itself is the Logos of the Divine Mind, is part of the Divine Mind. I was trying to understand that in terms of this diagram-- He says:

Plotinus V.3.8 (AS reading): "In the strength of such considerations we lead up our own Soul to the Divine, so that it poses itself as an image of that Being, its life becoming an imprint and a likeness of that Higher, its every act of thought making it over into the Divine and the Intellectual.… it has but to enter into that Principle, or to sink all its activity into that, . . ."

AB: Avery, in that other quote you said "a man becomes Intellectual-Principle when . . . he sees [only] through that." In a way what you're saying is that when a man becomes Intellectual-Principle, it's no longer Man.

AS: No, he's no longer soul.

AB: Okay, right, you no longer have the Idea of Man as soul, you just have the Idea of Man (inaudible) Saturn.

AS: Now this may be just my interpretation then, but there seems to be a distinction between Idea of Man and Soul. Now soul too rests in the Divine Mind or the Intellectual-Principle, there's no doubt he says it is, but it seems to be a distinct principle from man.

AB: How about this though, you're tracing back the ring, and you're going from the Saturn back into the Empties and into the Sun, but why couldn't you go from that Saturn into that first ring? And then say that you have an intuition of the Nous?

AS: You mean you're tracing this back into the Saturn in Cancer?

AB: Yes, in other words go from the 3rd house (inaudible) into the 3rd house of the first ring. And then you would say that you have the Idea of Man as Soul knowing or experiencing the Nous. Whereas when you were going the way you were going--

AS: It seems if you go into here, what is this? (inaudible) We have this whole ring here we said was the Idea of Man in Being, the first quadrant of it is the Unity of that Idea in the Nous. This 3rd house of that-- if the first one [house] is Unity, and the 2nd is those Superessential Essences, this house here, the 3rd one, the Venus and Saturn which was Nature, actually is the Nature of that Idea of Man, the Idea of Man as a unique form of the Intellectual-Principle. There's no Soul there, it's not ensouled yet. And this one it seems this is the Nature of the Idea of Man in the Nous, as a distinct Idea within the Nous, and as a distinct Idea within Soul. If you wanted to do that you'd be jumping down a level into the Saturn. Now you'd have if this Soul was a unique, was a special form of the Idea of Man, which itself was a special form of the Intellectual-Principle. But it's hard for me to see if the soul jumped to this level, united itself with the Nature of that Idea per se, with the unique form of the Idea of Man, it seemed it would be giving itself wholly over, completely over to the Divine Mind, and you'd no longer be soul.

AB: Okay, in either case (inaudible).

AS: In either case it would no longer be that, it seems.

[Anthony now joins the conversation. From here to end of this class tape = verbatim transcription, including students.]

AD: That would be equivalent to the (first), that would be coming into the Active Intellect of the Soul [FIGURE 1981 0225a-6-JF].

AS: Of the Soul ring, of the Soul.

AD: The Active Intellect of the Soul.

AS: Yes. That's what I was-- that was interesting because what we were doing before: those four ones: We had the Unity, the Active Intellect, the Material Intellect, the Acquired Intellect (prompted by S), the-- and you can go on.

AD: And you can place them all on top of that. If you take the first quadrant of that you'll have the Active Intellect, it could be turned to the Material Cosmic Circuit or it could be turned to the Divine Nous.

AS: Right.

AD: So the question would be how does the Active Intellect assimilate either the Cosmic or the Nous?

(drawing on blackboard)

SS: The Active Intellect you're calling that whole first quadrant?

AS: It's the Sun, Tail [sic; Five Empties], Saturn, the first quadrant, in particular, the one that has this Cognitive Isness, the Saturn in Leo, the first quadrant of the Soul ring. Remember when we did the objective, the first quadrant of the objective Soul, the vesica was this Active Intellect. (SS: Right, right.) And here we're saying that this is a similar function, this is the principle of Intellection in the Soul, Saturn in particular. Which also has within it the image of the Idea of Man.

AD: You could go around with the Hylic Intellect, Acquired, Sensible, in the Soul. And then you could see it facing either the outer ring or the inner ring. We said last week we could even think of the Divided Line working there, that would be the intuitive faculty of dianoia, etc. [FIGURE 1981 0225a-7-AB].

AS: In the soul. Um, are people clear on what these-- what these little figurines here in these boxes, I hope this schematic of where these are coming from, is somewhat-- no, no, no, okay. When we did this with the Idea of Man in terms of these three levels, in terms of Being, in terms of the Soul, in terms of the Cosmos, each one of these would be a fourfold, each one of these will be a fourfold. And we said the last fourfold is determined according to Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces, (knocking on blackboard) which we always used to do with the Four Intellects. And we could transpose that one level up to the way the Idea of Man is in Soul. We'd have Leo, Virgo, Libra, and Scorpio around. Alright. So the first quadrant of that Idea of Man in Soul would be the dignities in Leo. The Sun, Five [Empties], and the Saturn. You're saying that seems to be analogously the Active Intellect of the Soul. Because -- he said from this here, maybe if we do this one, looking up, he says "it possesses itself as an image" -- no, "it has but to enter that principle"--

AD: Avery, I think it would be easier if you take the last, if you take the Sensible Intellect.

AS: Yes.

AD: The last quadrant, and underneath work out the meanings of the Soul, last quadrant, and I think you'll see very clearly--

AS: We're showing how the Soul's power is really underlying what's everything that's going on, (AD: Yes.) what we used to call the Sensible Intellect.

AD: (inaudible) the cosmic circuit.

AS: This diagram I think is pretty simple, anyway, this whole ring here is the Soul, and you have to imagine the whole cosmos, the Cosmic Circuit-- superimposed on that.

AD: So we have the Mars [in Scorpio]--

AS: The Part of Fortune.

AD: The Venus and the Moon.

AS: The Venus and Moon. [Note: Fourth quadrant, Idea of Man in Soul, FIGURE 1981 0225a-1-JF.]

AD: Now inside, in the Cosmic Circuit--

AS: We would have Pisces: (AD: Pisces.) Jupiter, Venus, double Mercury. [Note: Fourth quadrant, Idea of Man in Cosmos, FIGURE 1981 0225a-1-JF.]

AD: Alright, now you take the meanings you find in the 10th, 11th, and 12th house, and underneath them, the meanings that you would find in the Soul ring. [Note: See FIGURE IMG 2202-Posterboard Metaphysical Chart for metaphysical meaning of each house/sign.]

AS: Alright, like these are all Pisces. (drawing)

S: In the Soul is Scorpio.

AS: And this one in the Soul Ring is Scorpio, Subjective Conception-- In a general way we're saying that the Subjective Conception of the Universe in the Soul, or the Soul's Idea that it has Spread Out in Thought, in Thought, is the underlie of the whole sensible cosmos, of the whole sensible manifestation or Pisces. I mean it's almost like the whole of everything is-- if we imagine everything condensed into that, it's almost like this is a picture of the one we were doing with the chart. You see what I mean? I mean this is really-- these are the Co-- this is the Cosmic Circuit here, in Pisces. This, the whole-- if we're doing a big metaphysical view, this fourth-- this is Pisces, this is the Cosmic Circuit in Pisces--

(Side 1 of original cassette tape digitized as 1981 0225a Ends; Side 2 Begins)

AD: --over there.

AS: It's gnostic.

AD: That's (inaudible).

AS: Back (then) it's gnostic.

DB: Well, I mean the reason--

AD: The Cosmic Circuit-- and you were getting off the point before, the Cosmic Circuit is the World-Soul in matter. (DB: Yes.) That's what you're interpreting, that's what the Soul is interpreting.

AS: Yes.

DB: Well-- I don't know, I guess--

AD: Try again.

DB: Well, when we had done this previously, I made this point 'cause I-- (part of me--)

AD: We haven't done this previously.

DB: Well, the meanings that we gave to the Mars, (AD: Yes.) the Venus, and--

AD: Yes but you haven't worked with the Intellects. I'm just bringing in the Intellects now, that when you're speaking about the Divided Line or the Four Intellects you're speaking about the Soul. And all I'm simply trying to say is: If you think of those contents like the 8th house contents of Scorpio, alright, and you divide it up according to the Intelligibles, and you'll see that that will be the underlying meaning which you're giving to the 12th house. All your meanings are coming from there.

DB: Well, that was what I meant in terms of fabricative.

AD: It's not fabricative, it's gnostic. The Soul isn't doing anything there, the Unit Soul isn't doing anything there, the Unit Soul is inserted into the Cosmic Circuit and it has to interpret what's doing on, it has to interpret its experience. It could do so according to the knowledge within itself, or it could do so according to the knowledge in the Nous. Or it could do so according to the knowledge in the Cosmic Circuit. (silence)

DB: Well, insofar as we're discussing the Scorpio ring here, now is that interpreting this insofar as it's in reference to itself? (AD: I didn't follow you--) Well, I'm a little bit lost, because I'm not so sure what's getting interpreted, but is the Mars, the Part of Fortune, the Moon, Venus, is that the interpretation that the Soul is giving or having in terms of itself? Is that its meaning in its own (life)?

AD: If you take that 4th quadrant, alright, and you say it's Scorpio, you'll have three signs there; and if you take it as Pisces, you'll have three signs there. The 10th, 11th, and 12th house. Okay. Now the underlying, underlying-- In other words, think of this as a 3-layered cake, the toppermost layer is the Cosmic Circuit, the middle layer is the Soul, the bottom layer is the Nous. (DB: Okay.) Now we cut this cake into 12 sections, (DB: Okay.) and you've got 7 circles going around inside of it, alright, 7 planets traveling around [FIGURE 1981 0225a-1-JF]. Each one of those planets is both fabricative and gnostic. (DB: Okay, right.) So they're building whatever is being built into the Cosmic Circuit there (they're producing). Now it's whatever events or relationships or situations occur there are interpreted by the *middle layer* looking into the 3rd layer, it looks up to it and says, "That's what that means."

DB: The middle layer meaning the Mars, and so forth.

AD: Soul. (Mars in) the Soul.

DB: Looking to-- I forgot--

AS: Looking to the cosmic manifestation.

AD: Looking to the Cosmic Circuit. (student laughter)

DB: Looking into that, alright now this is not sure what I understand, now I thought that was its object.

AD: Yes. That's the object(ive).

DB: That was an object, now you're saying it can be interpreted at that level as well as the lower level?

AD: Yes. You can interpret things that are going on in this world according to the knowledge of this world--

DB: Okay.

AD: Or you can interpret them according to the knowledge of the Soul. Or you can interpret them according to the knowledge of the Nous. What's going on in the Cosmic Circuit could be interpreted at those three levels. (DB: Okay.) Now if we took Plato's Divided Line, those two lowest portions of the Divided Line would apply to the Cosmic Circuit, that's where your knowledge is coming from, the perception of shadows and the belief in the sensible are faculties of the object, that's all in the top layer of the Cosmic Circuit. The dianoia, the reasoning, is coming from the Soul, alright. And the intuition of the intelligibles, or the 4th part of the Divided Line, is coming from the Nous. And so the Divided Line is like a knife ran through the three layers [FIGURE 1981 0225a-7-AB]. (DB: Okay.) Very simple.

DB: The only-- I guess what's confusing me is that I can see the relation of the Divided Line to these three levels okay -- you know the bottom two referring to the Cosmic Circuit, and the dianoia for the Soul itself, and then the Intuition of the Intelligibles to the (outermost). I guess the difficulty I'm having-- I'm not trying to-- If we speak of the four levels of the Divided Line as Being the passions of the Soul or the faculties of the Soul--

AD: So what's your question?

DB: That's the part I can't fit yet-- are we saying that this is all-- my context has just gotten twisted around and bent out of shape there because I don't know what individual-- I mean, I've been looking at that Mars ring there (inaudible, coughing), the Soul ring was referring to the individual and its interpretation, okay, of the cosmic event, from a Soul's point of view, and it would seem that it would be that which would have the four functions within it, and--

S: The Mars would have the four functions in it?

DB: Well, no, not that, it seems like it would be the subjective Soul which would have the four faculties, the four gnostic faculties within it. Okay.

AD: Yes--

DB: And in this context it seems as if we're taking the Cosmic Circuit, the Soul, and the Nous, and putting them all in the context of the Sensible Intellect and--

AD: No, we're not doing that--

DB: Okay, well, in the context of the 4th quadrant--

AD: No, we're not doing that-- (DB: Oh, okay.) (inaudible). This is the Idea of Man. (DB: Yes.) Remember the way Avery worked it out for you. So over here you would put the Unity of the Idea of Man in Being here, in line with the Essences, gives you the Individual, so that would be one zodiac, that would be the first zodiac.

DB: That would be the Aries [zodiac].

AD: And if you don't get confused, let me continue without going all over this. That's one zodiac, alright. Now the second circle, represented the Idea of Man in the Soul. (DB: Yes.) And the first part (DB: The Sun.) which meant (DB: The Unity of the Idea of Man in S--) in Life, alright, and then over here, (DB: The Saturn.) that would be unit Soul, alright, then over here would be all the powers of that soul. (DB: Yes.) Okay. (DB: Okay.) And then the third circle-- and again-- this here zodiac would start with Leo, alright and go around. And now if you correlate them, this would be Aries, and you go around and get your second zodiac. In other words, within the first four signs, which get divided each one into three, and you end up with one zodiac. And you do the same thing with the 2nd zodiac Leo, and you get the second zodiac. And then your third zodiac, this would be the Cosmic Circuit, alright. Inside the Cosmic Circuit you could put all your planets, (drawing sounds) in here let's say the Earth, okay. Again over here you would start with Sagittarius, (drawing) and that would be what?

DB: The unity of the individual vehicle or the--

AD: Well, this would be the 1st house of the Cosmic Circuit, and it would represent the Unity of the Idea of Man in Being, in Life, or Soul, and this would be--

DB: The unity of the Idea of Man in Embodied or--

AD: Embodied or in manifestation, okay. So then he would start off here and you would have Aries and you'd go around and you'd have third zodiac. So whenever you look at any of the works, ancient works, like in the Kabbalah they speak about three zodiacs. Alright, now what we're saying is over here is that you have the Idea of Man, but in these three different versions, over here in Being, in Soul, over here in Matter let's say. Okay. Now, (drawing) this is the Soul, and what we're saying is-- we used to speak about the Four Intellects and we used to put them in here, alright. Now all I'm doing is putting the Intellects in the Soul. (DB: Okay.) They don't belong here.

DB: They don't belong in the Cosmic Circuit?

AD: No.

DB: Okay, alright.

AD: Who's got the Passions of the Soul?

DB: Well, they're subjective--

AD: Well, so you put them in here. Alright, so over here we're putting the Active Intellect, over here the Hylic Intellect, over here the Acquired Intellect, and over here the Sensible Intellect [FIGURE 1981 0225a-6-JF]. But over here you would have what? You'd have over here Capricorn, right, Aquarius, Pisces. Over here you would have what? (DB: That's Scorpio?) No, it's not Scorpio. What?

S: Mars?

DB: Jupiter? (inaudible)

AD: Well, what would this Second Intellect be? I mean, what would the--We said we start over here with Leo. (S inaudible) I'm sorry-- You have Scorpio here and you break it up into the three last signs of the zodiac, wouldn't you?

S: Yes. Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces.

AD: Right. So what we're doing is we're taking this Scorpio, which is part of the Soul, and we're breaking it up, alright, and it has three levels, and so we would say this would be equivalent to Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces. That would be the Sensible Intellect of the Soul. Now this part of the Soul, the Sensible Intellect of the Soul, understands what's going on in that quadrant of the Cosmic Circuit.

DB: Okay.

AD: Okay. The Active Intellect of the Soul would understand what's going on in this part; the Hylic Intellect of the Soul would understand what's going on here. So you have the Four Passions of the Soul, interpreting what's going on in the Cosmic Circuit.

DB: Yes, okay.

AD: Okay. Now if it looks this way, it will have to interpret what's going on there. If it looks this way, it will interpret what's going on there according to the Nous. (DB: Yes.) That's all, it's, very straightforward, very simple.

DB: I guess what I was confused about-- it seemed to me-- I guess I didn't understand what you're doing-- it seemed that you were saying that the Sensible Intellect of the Soul, was dianoia.

AD: No, the Sensible Intellect of the Soul would be equivalent to the lowest category, wouldn't it?

DB: The imagination (inaudible).

AD: Yes. The perception of shadows.

DB: Well, it would--

AD: If the Soul, the second one here, if the Soul is working through a body, because over here you have Capricorn, Aquarius, it can only perceive according to the modifications that take place in the body. These modifications are what you call the perception of your world. That's the Sensible Intellect. No problem. If you didn't follow, ask me questions.

CdA: So in each of these four divisions as symbolized by the Leo through Scorpio, you're seeing the Leo and the Virgo and the Libra and the Scorpio as the Intellects? Are you making those-- like the Scorpio is the Sensible Intellect, are you equating them?

AD: The sensible world gets interpreted by Scorpio.

CdA: Okay. Now-- I don't know if I've ever heard you speak about the Intellects as threefold. How is it? (AD: I'm sorry--) How is it-- Is there some principle that makes the-- each of the Four Intellects threefold as its shown, like it's looking like on the chart. Like how is it that-- is it because the principle of the Zodiac is already-- (AD: I didn't follow you, I don't follow you--) The Scorpio-- (AD: There's Four Intellects--) There's Four Intellects (AD: Yes.) and on the chart those Four Intellects become a threefold each.

AD: No, they're Four Intellects.

CdA: Okay, that's (how you're using it). Okay, How, so what is the relationship, is it the relationship to the zodiac, that the Soul's Intellect, the Soul's Intellect in relationship to the zodiac, to those ideas that are in the--

AD: No, the zodiac was only to provide you with the meanings that you insert into the Soul in order to understand, what projections are taking place into the Cosmic Circuit.

CdA: I'm sorry, can you say that again?

AD: Avery, make a straight line, I think it'll be easier with a straight line. Put the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th house above the line, or below the line, and the 7th, 8th-- I'm sorry--

AS: I'm not sure that's what she was talking about, although I could do that. We'll take away the outermost ring here. We would even do it this way, or just doing--

AD: I wanted to do a very simple version, I wanted to put one house under another house. I mean one sign under another sign.

AS: Well, you have it right here. It probably would be just as easy to do it here, you shouldn't have three, you don't have three signs in (inaudible)-- (drawing) Well, this whole thing is Pisces, it's all Scorpio; this whole thing over here is Libra and then inside is Aquarius; and this is Virgo, and this is Capricorn; and this is Sagittarius and Leo. (drawing; see FIGURE 1981 0225a-7-AB) So this would be like Intuition or Intelligence or Nous in the Divided Line, or Intellect, okay. When the highest part of the Soul ring is functioning towards the Unities that are embodied materially you'd have what they call the Active Intellect. And then on the next one when you have the dianoetic aspect of the Soul which is interpreting or giving meaning to the actual material fabrication in Capricorn, this would be called I guess, the Material Intellect. And the Hylic Intellect. And then the next one the Acquired Intellect, where you have these vasanas in Aquarius interpreted by the Tattvas, the principles in the Soul or the Forms in the Soul, the organization of those in Libra, the Tattvas. And then here, the Idea in Soul or in Thought [Scorpio] is interpreting what's happening in the sensible manifestation, the actual sensibly manifested universe, would be Pisces, the Five Mahabhutas. And that lowest level of the Soul, the Soul's Idea in Thought would be the Sensible Intellect, interpreting the sensible physical manifestation. Her question-- (CdA: That, inaudible.) I know, her question, why is this a threefold? (CdA inaudible)

AD: Well, there were (a couple of ways of) working with that, I was working with three zodiacs.

AS: Yes, I know. That's-- she was asking about that-- I know-- (S inaudible)

AS: This one out here is Cancer, you have the Idea of Man--

CdA: But each of those-- I could ask it in several different ways but there's this fourfold, the 12 metaphysical ideas are divided into four in each chart that is superimposed each other.

AS: That's okay.

CdA: But THEN-- there's this 12fold, it seems, that is underlying or superimposed upon the whole thing--

AS: That's the point-- the principle of the thing is the metaphysical, the fourfold of (CdA: Right.) the metaphysical chart, and the first quadrant we have-- In order to speak about this Unity, you really have to bring in three things if you want to understand what the Active intellect is--

CdA: Is that the principle then that in order to--

AS: I think so. The principle--

CdA: That every Unity in the chart is threefold, and so you were really-- (AS inaudible) Well-- (AS inaudible) What were you just going to say, I'm sorry I interrupted--

AS: I was going to say that insofar as Leo here represents the Active Intellect, or the Intellectual Part of the Soul, or the Highest Part of the Soul, if we try to understand that highest part of the Soul is Leo, we'd have to be bringing in the first three houses of the metaphysical to understand that. If we wanted to understand the Unity of the Material Manifestation, in Sagittarius, we'd also have to bring in the first three principles. And if we wanted to understand the Unity of the Idea of Man, according to which the Active Intellect could interpret, that too would be have to be according to this first three houses of the metaphysical map. Because the principles of the fourfold division, is the fourth one, (we have) got it out here, would have to be the metaphysical division. I think.

CdA: So if we think of the zodiac-- as 12 signs in the zodiac-- and to say in this example, in the Cosmic Circuit, or in the Cosmos, there are 12 signs of the zodiac-- Are those 12 signs four, or are they 12?

AS: Well, you can have a grouping according, there is a very important-- Even when we analyzed the Soul quadrant, we spoke about a commonality of substance, all three signs there were Soul, right, and all three in the 2nd quadrant are Prajna, or all three in the 3rd quadrant are Taijasa [FIGURE 1981 0225a-8]. I don't see why there's an objection to grouping them that way.

CdA: No I just don't understand it, I'm not attempting to--

AD: Well, Carol, do you understand the three zodiacs and their juxtaposition to each other?

CDA: Yes, yes. I think I do.

AD: Now if you took one zodiac, how many ways could you arrange it? And why? Well, if you divide it into three fours, why do you do it that way? If you divide it into four threes, why do you do it that way?

CdA: Well, I think that's what I'm asking. Oh wait, I'm sorry, I don't think I understood you. If you take one zodiac and you divide it in three ways, that's what you've done in these three charts so--

AD: Well, if you take one zodiac and you say I'm going to make it into four, I have four quadrants, what are you doing, what's your model?

CdA: If you take one zodiac and you divided it into four, the model? Well, the way we've worked has been from the 1st house of the metaphysical chart has established the fourfold.

AD: There's a fourfold nature to everything, there's a fourfold nature to everything.

CDA: Yes.

AD: When you do it in a threefold way, what are you doing?

CdA: I'm saying, and I'm not sure I understand, but -- when you're make a threefold what you're doing is that-- it's an ontic principle and so you are eliminating the first Transcendent principle, so it becomes threefold.

AD: You're working just with Being.

CdA: (inaudible) (would be). But I can't put those together with this--

AD: You can't put what together?

CdA: Well, so if this chart is BOTH, that's what's very confusing about it because it's both an ontic chart, it's in Being, it's a threefold chart--

AD: Well, you'll go on getting confused-- I mean-- give me a question--

CdA: I don't understand how the three and the four combine in this chart, I mean I see it but I don't understand it.

AD: What three are you referring to?

CdA: The three levels of the Nous, the Soul, and the Cosmos. Okay. That's how I understand the threefold.

AD: Well then-- well that's not the threefold chart, there are three zodiacs one superimposed upon the other I'm not speaking about the threefold chart.

CdA: But isn't how we first got this chart--

AD: What? Don't go by the genesis, go by what I'm saying now--don't go by genesis, okay. (student laughter) I'm just trying to explain that I'm superimposing one on top of the other, alright, and you could collapse them all into one chart, in doing that. Now the reason I doing that is so that you could see the underlie, the lowest layer would be the reality of the Nous, alright, you work out the meaning of the Idea of Man in the Nous, you only need the first four signs. Because that's in Being. The Idea of Man in the Soul is the next four signs, alright, and again that could be made into a 12, and that's superimposed on the Nous.

CdA: How is each--

AD: If you don't let me finish, you'll go wandering in a labyrinth of your own fantasies. And then I do that with the Cosmic Circuit, alright. Now I got only one chart, I don't have three charts. When I look at a chart, or you look at *any* chart, you got all three of them right there in one chart. Is it only her question, or is it yours, too?

CdA: Much more (inaudible)

S: I think it started out to be a simple question. (student laughter)

AD: It's a very simple diagram. When you take a circle, you divide it in three, and you put a circle in each one, and you take the third circle and you put it on top of the 2nd and the 2nd on top of the first, alright. That's the way I want you to look at it, I didn't want you to see three circles there. I don't want you to see three zodiacs, there's only one zodiac. (student snickers) Look, look, the first zodiac means the Idea-- the first sign Aries in the first zodiac means the Idea of Man in Being. The second zodiac Aries, alright, not Leo, is the Idea of Man in Life. The third zodiac, not Sagittarius, Aries, means the Idea of Man in body. (inaudible) If you look at a chart paper, alright, the white [paper] refers to the Nous, the lines refer to the Soul, the cosmic circuit refers to the others, to the 3rd one, the Cosmic Circuit. It's all on one chart. But you can't see it, right, because it's all on one flat dimension, one dimension. I'm just taking the dimensions apart. Like when you're speaking about the Intellect you're speaking about something very specific, each Intellect doesn't have three parts, because then you're speaking of Intellect, you're coming from the point of view of matter, whether intelligible or material.

CdA (hard to hear): That's the part that's confusing, that--

AD: I know. You got hung up on a side issue-- Go ahead, Richard.

RG: You say the Four Intellects are the aspects of the subjective Soul, which understands or can pull out the meaning of the cosmic gizmo (inaudible). And I don't understand--

AD: Well, I don't expect you to. Avery, you go through that--

AS: (inaudible)

RG: Well, let me clarify my confusion, and maybe-- I'm having a lot of trouble with these terms, objective Soul and subjective, maybe if I just pin it down what you mean by them I'll be able to handle it. (S: Objective--) Now when we say objective Soul there--

AD: You're speaking about Samkhya.

RG: You're speaking about Samkhya--?

AD: The whole Samkhya cosmology,

RG: From Prakriti downwards.

AD: From Prakriti downwards.

RG: Okay. But that's in reference to an individual Soul. In other words, it's the objective manifestation.

AD: No. Prakriti dances for all (alive).

AS: It's cosmic manifestation.

AD: It's cosmic manifestation you're talking about, yes.

AS: That was the thing you asked before, Richard-- (RG: I know.) But isn't-- he says the cosmos a blessed god, the whole manifested cosmos itself has *Soul* as its basis but Soul is not the cosmos. Isn't there a distinction between the Cosmic Soul or the World-Soul and the cosmos itself?

RG: Yes.

AD: Alright. But isn't that irrelevant right now? I mean the distinction between those two.

RG: Irrelevant?

AD: Yes--

RG: No, because if I don't understand that I can't follow anything you're saying, so why is it irrelevant? If the distinction between what you mean which is-- the whole basis of the distinction you're making I don't see why that's irrelevant. Then what is relevant to the point? I mean if I don't understand that, then I can follow the rest of what you're doing. (AD: If you don't understand--) The distinction between the objective Soul and the subjective Soul.

AD: The objective Soul, in other words the Soul of the cosmos.

RG: Right.

AD: And that's the World-Soul.

RG: That's the World-Soul.

AD: Yes, what about it? You don't confuse that with the world itself, do you?

RG: No, not at all. But you're still conceiving the World Soul as objective.

AD: Yes, as an objective World Soul.

RG: Okay. Objective to who?

AD: Objective to *us*.

RG: Objective to us as subjective in --

AD: As individual souls.

RG: Okay. Now I could understand the manifestation of that Soul as objective to us, but I can't understand that Soul as objective to us. If you said, yes, the cosmos is objective--

AD: Oh no, you've got to be kidding. You mean from Plotinus you haven't learned the difference between Absolute Soul, Universal Soul, and Individual Soul. How well have you read Plotinus?

RG: Obviously not well enough. I mean--

AD: There's quite a distinction between those.

RG: I know there is. But I don't understand, I don't understand -- My understanding what Plotinus means by those distinctions I have trouble with conforming with your diagram. (inaudible)

AD: There's an enormous difference between what he would call Universal Soul, Absolute Soul, and individual Soul. (RG: Yes.) There are tremendous differences. And the Universal Soul or the Absolute Soul does not insert itself into the fourth quadrant and experience. It *makes* that fourth quadrant.

RG: Right okay.

AD: It makes that fourth quadrant. But the Individual Souls are going to go *live* in that which the Universal Soul makes.

RG: Okay, fine. Now that Universal Soul that makes the cosmos you're referring to that as objective Soul--

AD: As objective, yes. Just a terminological distinction so that you don't confuse it with Individual Soul.

RG: But what is it, I don't understand-- if it's just a term, okay-- but if it had some meaning-- I don't understand the meaning of calling it objective.

AD: It fabricates the objective world.

AS: Okay--

AD: Isn't it simple enough?

RG: It's not simple to me at all, no. I mean--

AD: I'm pretty sure that your Soul or any Individual Soul or any number of Individual Souls is going to be the principle of universal manifestation.

RG: Okay, but that Soul itself then isn't objective. It may be the principle or the fabricator of the cosmos, but then why call that Soul--

AD: Because I'm equating that with the objective manifested world.

RG: But how-- I know I know, that's my problem--

AD: It's just a terminological distinction, so that we understand each other. Because there's also going to be a subjective Universal Soul, which is not concerned with the building or manifesting of a cosmos. alright, but being the mother of individual particular Souls.

RG: Okay, and why do we ascribe the label objective to one and subjective to the other?

AD: Because of what we just said. One Soul is going to be like called the Demiurgic Soul, (and it) fabricates, and is going to be the principle of objective manifestation. The other Soul is going to be, if I could use incorrect language, the mother of individual Souls, or Cognitive Isnesses, which are in no way to be equated with objective manifestation. If you didn't understand that then the past month has just been gone over meaningless.

RG: I understand the distinction I think you're making in terms of the principle of Soul that is creative and Demiurgic and fabricative, and an aspect of Soul that is contemplative and does not have anything to do with manifestation. (AD: I'm sorry, Richard, the first part--) I understand the distinction that within soul there are these two aspects. One that fabricates the universe, and the other that has no relation to the universe at all but is the Cognitive Isness. I have some understanding of that distinction within Soul--

AD: So you take the third quadrant and that would be concerned with the fabrication of the cosmos.

RG: Yes.

AD: But when you speak about Individual Unit Souls, you got to go to the second quadrant, you pull them out from the Natures, the Nature of Soul itself. So there you'd be coming from individual unit Souls. But, as we said, that Saturn [in Leo] could also refer to Juno and Cronos, [cf. Astronoesis *original draft* pp. 83-84 and WG Class 1981 0304; he means Rhea] the mother of individual subjective Souls.

RG: Yes. That doesn't-- But doesn't that the Demiurgic Soul or the Universal Soul, that also has an aspect of Soul that certainly--

AD: It's the Soul of the One--

RG: Rooted in the second quadrant--

AD: It's the Soul of the One, (RG: Yes--) that's quite different. If you call the first quadrant the One, the second quadrant Intellectual-Principle, the third quadrant Soul, the fourth quadrant Body, and you say that the third quadrant is Soul, you're saying it's the Soul of the One.

RG: Okay. In that sense it's certainly not--

AD: It's certainly objective to you, an "I".

RG: What do you mean by that? What do you mean it's objective, in that we see its functioning?

AD: We see its functioning, sure.

RG: But we certainly don't see it, we see its manifestation--

AD: Yes. Do you follow the distinctions that are being made here? That's the very first thing that we started out, when we established the chart, we said here we are, we'll divide it into four parts, Plotinus refers to this as One, this is Intellectual-Principle, this is Soul, and this is the System of Nature, alright, the fourth quadrant. Or, we can take the other alternative but with the rings, and work it around with the rings. And we had these two ways of approaching it [FIGURE AD Supp 201-top-digital]. No problem. We started off that way. (RG: I know.) and so now I'm drawing out all the implications of what we did. (RG inaudible) Go ahead. (RG inaudible)

AS: I think you want to know why, when we go back to that diagram, the cosmic manifestation, he wants to know why he's calling that the Universal Soul, the World Soul.

AD: He wants a dose of the Vedanta.

AS: I don't really understand what your objections-- We're saying that the Individual Soul's participation in that Universal Soul or in what we call objective Soul is only in terms of cosmic manifestation.

RG: Okay, that's fine.

AS: And that is your participation in it. (RG: Okay. But--) If you speak about that Universal Soul as knowing, it doesn't need to know in the same way that the Individual Soul knows, the true objective cognitive Isness.

RG: But in speaking of it only in terms of the Samkhya tattvas, it seems we're truncating the notion of objective Soul, by limiting it--

AS: But we included the 9th house too, not just 10, 11, and 12. In this diagram we have 9, 10, 11, and 12, not just 10, 11, and 12. And that brings in the Jupiter [in Sagittarius] which is the Being of that Soul.

RG: But doesn't that Soul have a subjective aspect too? It may be objective to us in terms of its m-- I still would have to say *it* is not objective to us, but its manifestation is objective to us. But itself as Soul isn't objective to us. As Soul it's subjective to itself.

AS: But it's not an individual entity in the way that these [individual] Souls are. It would be almost like a whole other (inaudible) Soul. It doesn't go through this. For one thing in the other picture we have, the way that it's known to itself as subjective is as the Nous, so it's always self-knowing, whereas the Soul is not, the Individual Soul is not.

RG: Okay. Fine.

AS: But its self-knowing doesn't require any external, it doesn't require it to know any external-- (RG: Alright--) --and so on. But you're just saying, well, we don't know that Universal Soul, the third quadrant of the big metaphysical chart, [Note: See FIGURE IMG 2202-Posterboard Metaphysical Chart.] we'd say well that has knowledge, or you want to say Jupiter Venus Mars, as far as the Intellectual-Principle going around that way, so it's conjoined with the knowledge of itself. So we say we don't know, we're not participating in that knowledge it has of itself, we only are in the outward manifestation of that.

RG: Right. True.

AS: I don't see any problems in saying that we don't have the knowledge of that--

RG: It seems whenever we speak of the objective Soul, I just-- that we're only speaking of its material aspect.

DR: I don't understand what you mean by that: How could a Soul have a material aspect?

RG: Does it have a body?

DR: Unless it's fabricative, I think, as a form that could be an object to knowledge.

RG: It has a material aspect.

DR: To another Soul--

RG: In that has a body.

DR: But if it's known, it seems to me that what is known has to be in itself an object for knowledge. To say Nature as what is known there.

[Note: See FIGURE AD Supp 202-digital for the following.]

AD: (inaudible) Now this is the chart of *The One* alright. Just The One. Not your chart, mine, of Jupiter, or anyone else, alright. This would be The One. This would be (drawing) its Being, its Life, its Intellect. If you want to look at it in quadrant form. This would be its Soul, alright. And let me put it this way--this would be its Nature, this would be its Soul, this would be its Body. This is the chart of the One.

Now there's another way you could look at it. You could say this is the One, this is Being, this is Soul or Life, alright, and this is Intellect. When you do it this way, you're taking the One and looking at it in terms of four levels of substance: Turiya, Prajna, Taijasa, and Vaishvanara okay. Now if you want to think of the Soul as function, alright, as doing something, then you can't-- this will only give you the substance point of view. So you've got to think of a 7fold to give you the--

So over here if we have One, Being, Soul, and Intellect, okay. The outside ring gives you your four: four substances starting with Turiya. The inside gives you the 7 functions. [Note: In the appended diagram it's reversed: the inside gives you the four, the outside gives you the seven, if you count One as pertaining to both inside and outside.] Now this is just the One. This here is the Soul of the One. This Soul of the One is fabricating the Universe. This is objective to anybody that lives in here. It's very straightforward, you couldn't ask for an easier answer.

RG: Which is objective?

AD: This is objective, (inaudible) anything living here, anything living here.

RG: I don't understand how the Soul in the 3rd quadrant is objective to an entity living in the 4th quadrant. I can understand that its manifestation is objective--

AD: Alright, if you want to put in that refinement, go ahead.

RG: But I don't know if that's what you mean--

AD: I mean both, I mean both.

RG: Okay, and I don't understand then, the part that I don't understand. I don't understand how that Soul is objective to (anyone), I don't really understand that, I don't know what that means.

AD: Well, does this fabricate the universe, right?

RG: Yes.

AD: All the vehicles in here are fabricated by the Soul, alright. Then that means that if an entity moves in here, lives in here, as far as this entity is concerned, this is objective because it made the universe. If it was its own father or mother, or if it was its maker, alright, if this Soul was the maker of the individual Soul, then certainly we can't say it's objective. We'd have to say it's subjective. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about this here making the whole of universal manifestation, starting with your 24 tattvas or whatever you want to work with. Very simple, very straightforward. There's nothing complicated about that. What is complicated is to try to understand this little scheme that we're laying out to understand the chart that you work with in astrology, which is to say, alright-- (silence) I know it's complicated. But then again I think you people are a little brighter than the average. Otherwise you wouldn't be here, you'd be in a Sheik's Oasis [bar in Valois]. (student snickers) You got Saturn here, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Mercury, Venus, and the Moon. [Note: Soul ring starting with Saturn in Leo.] Now remember we said if you take just the Cosmic Circuit, this is the world we live in, our universe, alright. You make this division in astrology.

[Audio File 1981 0225a Ends]

[Audio File 1981 0225b (formerly 1981 0225c) Begins]

AD: See, this is going to be equivalent to Aries. Now I'm going to run a zodiac around here, alright, and I'm going to put that zodiac-- now you already have a zodiac here I don't have to tell you, right? You all know you got a zodiac: Aries, alright, Libra, Capricorn, and Cancer, you all know that chart, (drawing). Now I'm taking this here and I'm saying look, the Soul has its own zodiac, there's a zodiac in the Soul. Are you reading Robert Fludd or the Archetypal Ideas in Kepler? [Note: See W. Pauli, "The Influence of Archetypal Ideas on the Scientific Theories of Kepler" in C.G. Jung, W. Pauli, The Interpretation of Nature and the Psyche. See also Kepler series, WG Classes 1981 0221, 0228, 0307, 0314, 0321.]

AS: There's a good quote on that.

AD: There's a good quote on that, now there's a zodiac in the Soul. Look it up! You could look up Ibn 'Arabi. Nah, don't need him. (student laughter)

AS: You look it up, Alan.

AD: So now we're taking this zodiac in the Soul, and we're saying wait a minute now, there's another zodiac underlying this one here, which is part of the Soul. Now in order to understand, in order to understand that means you have to take-- you have to find out what these Ideas are, these Ideas which underlie what's happening to you. So if you say that this is the Idea of the Soul in Life, alright, and then if you take your natal chart and you look at it, the first house is identity, this is where you identified yourself (with), and you say this is I, alright. What underlies this here? Tell me-- What makes you say that "I am I" just because you got a body born on Mulberry Street, 1924 at 4 o'clock in the morning, alright, you had certain parents, and lived in certain places. What makes you say "I" to all this? Terry might be able to tell us. (silence)

TJ: (inaudible) (student laughter)

AD: What do you read when you look at a chart? Aren't you reading your Soul for heaven's sakes? What do the hell you think you're reading? You break a leg, you say "ouch"; it's my body. Who's the 'MY' referring to? Body we know comes from this realm here. But the one who says it's "MY body" is coming from this out here. Here's the underlie for the whole thing. So everything in this cosmic chart is being interpreted by the Soul, assuming that you're intelligent Christians. But let's say you have a primitive mentality, you're not going to say that I'm interpreting what's going on here according to the Soul, you're going to be interpreting these things according to the knowledge of the WORLD. Now, most people say that you are just a body. Period. That's enough for them. Alright, then they're working within the cosmic framework. There, you can say that the Soul instead of looking up to the Nous for guidance, looks down into manifestation, gets lost and obscured in its ways. You remember Dante? "In the middle of my life, I lost my way, while walking through a dense and dark forest." [Note: See Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy: Inferno, Canto I.] (silence) Is there a problem with that? This is what I want you to understand, never mind going back to the original premises which we worked on three years ago.

Student: inaudible comments, something about 1832.

AD: 1832 we worked on it? (student comments, laughter) We keep going month by month, month by month, the ideas keep coming out, do you follow me or do you just keep asking me questions from pre-Civil-War days? (lots of student laughter) I'm not going to wait. Go ahead, David.

DB: I'm not sure if I'm imagining this--

AD: The question! (more student laughter) (Are you) so polite? The question, David, be brutal.

DB: Are the passions of the Soul the Idea of Man? [Note: See WG Classes 1980 1126, 1980 1203a for more on Plato's four inspirations, passions of the soul.]

AD: In Life.

DB: In Life. The zodiac you were just speaking of.

AD: He speaks of it as the passions of the Soul.

DB: Yes, right, but it seems then what we're saying--

AD: Could you imagine the Idea of Man in Being having passions?

DB: Oh, no, no.

AD: Okay.

DB: But rather than thinking of these passions as already inherent within the Soul itself, it seems that when we speak of the Soul as having these four gnostic faculties, we're speaking of the immanence of the Idea of Man in the Soul, in Life.

AD: Yes.

DB: Okay, yes, it never occurred to me.

AD: See, I want to leave out "in Man" right now, see if you can really grasp "in the Soul." Because that's your most immediate reference.

DB: Right.

AD: It's not until a person, let's say, reaches the Overself that he can speak about the Idea of Man in Being per se. (DB: Yes.) In other words, he has direct access to the Nous or the Intellectual-Principle. So this is our immediate concern, to understand the Soul that underlies, alright. Now *underlies* is wrong, because THE Soul IS NOT IN ANY PLACE. You can't localize it. The only way that Soul gets localized is like for instance: Let's say you have two aspects going on, alright, and an idea pops up in your head. You remember the way they show the light, you know, in a cartoon, you get a light, they put a bulb up, it lits up, alright. In that instant that the bulb lits up, alright, that's the instant that you can say that the Soul recognizes itself. Because it's being revealed to itself.

DB: Yes.

AD: It's not-- the most obvious example of course is in art when, let's say, you capture the essence of some poetry or painting, you recognize, you recognize something about yourself. You ever watch the way people all of a sudden lit up and smile about something beautiful -- it's themselves they're recognizing. They think it's the music. It's the Soul you're recognizing. Okay, so that's what I'm talking about, that's what has to be understood. And this is quite a conception. You have to remember that Neo-Platonic tradition, the way I understand it, and Avery I think, is that they want the whole of the sensible world as the backdrop in which to understand the Soul. That the stage, that's the backdrop. It's not another textbook that you turn to a footnote to find out. They say IN this world where you live, so to speak, where your Soul comes into, let's say, generation, it is here that is the backdrop of what we have to say, what our philosophy is all about. And that means using this whole cosmic setup, this whole cosmic panorama to understand all this. When a rabbit has a family of ten little rabbits, the whole cosmos is involved, it just doesn't happen by a concurrence of atoms.

DB: One other question, which is-- we speak of the Soul as this second zodiac here, this 12fold as being the subjective Soul. Now would this, is this what they refer to as the immortal spark that the Demiurge imparts to the vehicles here, is this the way that is working?

AD: No, as a matter of fact, you can't impart a spark to the immortal Soul, because if you said that, it wouldn't be immortal.

DB: Yes. I didn't mean to say that something was being imparted to the immortal Soul, okay. Taking the Leo to the Scorpio ring as referring to the immortal Soul okay, then when the Demiurgus is fabricating the vehicles he imparts an immortal spark to the vehicle okay and gives it life so to speak. Now what I was asking--

AD: I would like to drop that now.

DB: Okay.

AD: Okay?

DB: Alright.

AD: That's a question all by itself, and it's the nature of the vehicles. Alright, got another quote?

AS: Hm?

AD: You got another quote?

AS: This is an interesting quote. (AD: Alright read the quote and we'll see if we can handle it.) In fact, it's exactly what you were saying here. Um-- in V.9.13-- (pages turning)

AD: You see that the interesting thing that comes up over here-- the alchemists-- The alchemists believe that the realization of oneself takes place through a basic transmutation of matter. So that meant working within the cosmic circuit, alright. And the World-Soul which is embedded in the matter is what the alchemists were working with. But that will never take you beyond the domain of cosmology. Whereas what Plotinus is working with is Soul itself. And he's not interested in the World-Soul which is embedded in matter or which has to be released from the matter, so that one could transform, let's say, his environment whether it's the immediacy of the physical body or the sheaths. They weren't working with that, Plotinus doesn't work like that. Now this is a little difficult to understand but I'll work it out in the Saturday class. Where there's two possible ways of operating. There's one way through the cosmic circuit which is what the alchemists did, or --what the philosophic mystics do, is to work the way Plotinus [did]. Now these are two different approaches. One takes you INTO the objective realm, the objective Soul; the other one takes you into the Intellectual realm. Would your read it?

AS: It says:

Plotinus V.9.13 (AS reading): "It must be stated at the outset that we cannot take all that is here to be image of archetype, or Soul to be an image of Absolute-Soul: one soul, doubtless, ranks higher than another, but here too, though perhaps not as identified with this realm, is the Absolute-Soul.

"Every soul, authentically a soul, has some form of rightness and moral wisdom; in the souls within ourselves there is true knowing: and these attributes are no images or copies from the Supreme, as in the sense-world, but actually are those very originals in a mode peculiar to this sphere. For those Beings are not set apart in some defined place; wherever there is a soul that has risen from body, there too these are: the world of sense is one-where, the Intellectual Cosmos is everywhere. Whatever the freed soul attains to here, that it is There.

"Thus, if by the content of the sense-world we mean simply the visible objects, then the Supreme contains not only what is in the realm of sense but more: [but] if in the content of the Cosmos we mean to include Soul and the Soul-things, then all is here that is There." (AS inaudible)

[Note: See FIGURE 1981 0225a-1-JF for the following.]

AD: You see-- What I really wanted to show is-- is probably a little confusing. But I think if you can see-- We said we have three zodiacs alright. Let's work with just the first two zodiacs, and leave out the third one, the one on Being, because that's difficult, alright, from Aries to Pisces. Okay, we have two zodiacs. Aries to Pisces. Now this one here we said really here would be [the one beginning in] Sagittarius, okay, and this one here would be [beginning in] Leo. So if you took a Sagittarius [zodiac] alright-- Aries Taurus Gemini (drawing-on-blackboard sounds) Aquarius Pisces. Now we have a zodiac here, let's call it the Sagittarian zodiac-- and again, this is interesting. The ancients said that all generation took place from Sagittarius to Pisces. Now you have to figure out what they mean. Because as far as you are concerned you've got a zodiac and within that zodiac from Aries to Pisces you have manifestation. What do they mean when they say "manifestation takes place only between Sagittarius and Pisces"? Alright. Now that's just a side issue.

Now we take the Leo zodiac alright, and the Leo zodiac would be Leo Virgo Libra --is that right-- and Scorpio, okay. And this would be Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces. Now, these here would have to [be] underlying these here, they have to be underneath. So we would have to work out the meanings of Leo like for instance, we said over here the Idea of Man of Life, the Idea of Man in the Soul or in Life, combining with certain essences to produce-- That would give us let's say Aries Taurus Gemini okay. Well-- When you get to the Scorpio one, here, and this is the 8th house, these meanings here in the 8th house, would have to underlie the whole 4th quadrant of this zodiac. So if you take the meaning of Scorpio which is the Subjective Conception of the Universe in the Mind of God, and you say that that's implanted in the Soul, now let's say that that underlies Capricorn Aquarius and Pisces, alright, in terms of the Sagittarian zodiac. But that means that anything that's occurring in manifestation you're reading off, the Soul is reading off, the meanings of what's occurring in manifestation according to the Subj-- according to its participation in the Subjective Idea of the Universe. And that's why those meanings are projected ON to the cosmos.

Now of course here the importance of projection can hardly be overestimated. Because the Soul doesn't exist in any spot-- you know that's obvious, it's not localized. The only time that the Soul seems to be localized is like when we said over here, you have a certain aspect coming out, if you can imagine the light shining through these two, these two form an aspect, and the light shines out and you understand something-- in that movement, you could say that it seems that the Soul is localized there. But it isn't. It's self- illuminating. You get a general picture of what I'm working with?

DR: I have a general picture. I also have a question. I'm not sure if it's a little bit tangential -- (AD: Go ahead.) If you say that the Soul reads off of generation -- On the one hand, it seems as though it sees itself and that seems to be the import of what you're saying. And on the other hand, there seems to be a meaning that's actually inherent in the generation that the Soul is reading according to itself. From where is it really coming? Is it there in that generated world or it there in the Soul? Are the meanings the same in both, and the Soul reads what it wants to, or is there actually a meaning written into the cosmos that the Soul then reads?

AD: What you're saying is this here, I think. Sometimes the Soul could understand an object in terms of the object itself, that is, the definition of the object. And that means that the Soul has direct access to the informing Ideas, the logos principle of that object, that knows that object for what it is, as the definition of that object. Okay. Sometimes some relationship or event happens in your life, where you interpret it or let's say you can interpret it. Now I'm not saying that he can do these things, but you interpret that meaning, alright, that event you interpret according to a certain meaning which is in the Soul alright. Again, you're working off reason-principles within YOU, to understand what that event in your life is about. Now is there a higher meaning which let's say would include both? --that would be the Nous.

DR: I see, so the answer is really both, but there's really a more inclusive--

AD: Yes, because there has to be meaning to BOTH things. I mean, there has to be an objective meaning to the object which is being fabricated by this huge wisdom of the cosmos making that object. I mean there has to be a meaning, an idea, implanted in the object, in that sense that it's informing the object. So it does have a reason-principle embedded in the matter, alright, and that matter is manifesting that idea. So there is a validity to the knowledge of that object. There you would speak about the Ideas as immanent and present in the object, informing the matter of that object. There you would be understanding objectively. Alright now suppose you want to understand something about yourself-- also the same reasoning would have to be applied. But this time it would be have to be coming from your own Soul. It won't be coming from the matter that informs your body, makes your body to be the possibility of the manifestation of the idea of a man in a body, alright.

Now you want to know if this body is going through certain situations or events, what does this mean? It doesn't mean anything to the body, obviously, it's got to mean something to YOUR Soul. Now there would be a subjective meaning projected outwardly on the event. Now BOTH of these things are valid. And it's stupid to think that only the scientist is right who's describing objective phenomena, or the psychologist is right who's describing only subjective phenomena. They're both right. Why do you insist-- you'll see this very clearly when you get into the Kepler-Fludd argument. You'll see it very clearly, one is insisting on the rights of science and the other is insisting on the rights of the subjective soul. And they both go tearing at each other. It's foolish, they're both right. (DR inaudible)

But that's why the third circle you know-- because once you get into the Idea of Man [in Being] you're talking about Nous, you're speaking about the Intellectual-Principle. If you could negate the Soul's functioning, and that's what is required in order for you to enter into the Nous, then you would have the knowledge of the Nous that would be operating through your Soul, because Soul would be a vehicle which transmits that knowledge. So you can go to the Dalai lama and ask him something, and you would get an answer from the World-Mind DIRECT. Okay? He would be covering both phases. You go to a scientist and he's only going to tell you only what's going on inside the cosmic circuit. You go to, let's say a-- what do you call them, a spiritual preceptor, well, whichever-- he would inform you about here. But it takes an entirely different breed of man to take you from here. And I don't even know if we should even call him man. But we'll call him man because I don't know what else to call him.

Alright, you can continue, Avery. Now look--you try not to ask questions that are not related to this; you stick to questions related to this here. All of you, stick to the questions of what we're doing! Next week I'll give you the opportunity to ask questions about something else. But don't jump away from what you're doing. (S inaudible) Alright, go ahead, Richard.

RG: I mean, so in a sense, we find ourselves within the cosmic circuit--

AD: No--

RG: What?

AD: You can't, here.

RG: No, no, we don't find ourselves, I didn't mean it that way--

AD: Okay, good--

RG: We don't find ourselves in the cosmic circuit. We find our bodies in the cosmic circuit. I mean, we appear within the cosmic circuit, and what we call our subjective functioning is really not subjective, it's really objective functioning.

AD: Isn't that so? (RG: Oh yes.) As long as you're (sticking) with knowledge which is coming to you from the cosmos. (RG: Right.) Yes.

RG: Now when that organ, when those psychic functions that we take to be-- they can operate either towards the object or they can try to, in a sense, free themselves from reference to the object. And yet, um, it's within the psyche that both those processes happen.

AD: Yes--

RG: So within the psyche it can either function towards the object, towards the cosmic circuit, or it could function internally trying to read the contents in the Soul.

AD: (assents) Yes. So you could take the degrees for instance in your chart, okay, or let's say what we refer to as the psychical essences that constitute the personality, and they could be involved in trying to understand what's going on in the world. Okay, or they could be turned upon themselves and go beyond themselves. As long as they don't go beyond themselves they're still caught in the cosmic circuit. They got to get out of it. That would be equivalent to satori like you said. Yes-- (S inaudible) And the other strange thing is, you know, the remark I think, you probably heard enough times from Jung. He speaks about the unconscious and he says that the archetypes in the unconscious give it the structure and the formation it does. And then he makes the next remark, which is very interesting. That we all share in the same structure. So your psyche --and this is just a play on words-- your psyche is composed of 360 degrees and so is mine. And they're the same 360 psychical essences. And then the question would come, Well what distinguishes your personality structure from mine? And that gets us into a different ballgame. But right now you can see that that would be the common denominator among all people. So you can see if the 360 degrees, alright, are turned onto the cosmic manifestation, then it's going to get interested in what it projected out there, what it sees out there. It can get interested in itself, or it can get interested in what is prior. And there's the ballgame.

DR: When you mentioned the possibility of satori, are you saying there that's the recognition of the soul recognizing itself?-- or are you saying that's a recognition of the soul knowing that it lives in a world of Nous?

AD: Well it first has to recognize itself. I think you would have to go back to the quote-- Avery, you might remember the quote, that Jeff was interpreting differently-- (S inaudible)

AS: V.3.4. (LR: You have a page for it?) V.3.4. (pages turning) Page 385. The self-knower is a double person. (AD assents)

Plotinus V.3.4 (AS reading): "Thus the self-knower is a double person: there is the one that takes cognizance of the principle in virtue of which understanding occurs in the Soul or mind; and there is the higher, knowing himself by the Intellectual-Principle with which he becomes identical: this latter knows the self as no longer man but as a being that has become something other through and through: he has thrown himself as one thing over into the superior order, taking with him only that better part of the Soul which alone is winged for the Intellectual Act and gives the man, once established There, the power to appropriate what he has seen." (silence)

AS: So I interpreted the one, the "principle in virtue of which understanding occurs in the Soul or mind" is the Saturn in Leo, the Cognitive Isness. Okay, that would be like that principle underlying the whole cosmic circuit.

DR: The Soul recognizing itself.

AS: Right. But then, when it becomes identical with the Intellectual-Principle, then it knows itself by the Intellectual-Principle with which it has become identical. And that would actually be recognizing the Nous. That would be operating off the Nous' knowing, as we said. In the one case, the fellow could be soul, and know that he's operating as soul. At the lowest level let's say, he's taking himself to be this material functioning, the cosmic functioning. At the next level he knows himself to really be Soul. And at the highest level-- and that principle that he knows in virtue of which understanding occurs is in a way the principle of which understanding is occurring before anyway. So now this highest is that he knows himself by means of the Nous. Or actually, as he says, he becomes the Intellectual-Principle, so it's the Intellectual-Principle functioning through him.

DR: (Or some way that they speak of--)

AD: You remember that, Jeff? (some inaudible student comments; AS: Same three rings.) (inaudible) It's like if I'm in the position I'm in now, I would say, if I refer to the "I am I" well I'd say that the true "I" is the soul. Suppose I succeed in being Soul now. Now what's my true "I"?

JC: Well, it would be situated in the Nous.

AD: Yes, it would be the Nous. So the Self of the Soul is the Nous. But he also keeps the distinction. He says Soul is NOT Nous. It can use the Nous, but it is not the Nous. [Note: See Plotinus, V.3.3, eleventh para.] So Soul can, so to speak, be a mouthpiece for the Nous, alright, but it doesn't become the Nous just because it becomes a mouthpiece for the Nous. Now that's the next level that we would have to discuss which I don't want to get into now. When the Soul negates itself and-- the Nous-- becomes a mouthpiece for the Nous.

JC: There's another passage in the same section, on p. 388 where he says in [V.3]7:

Plotinus V.3.7 (JC reading): "But to admit its knowing God is to be compelled to admit its self-knowing. It will know what it holds from God, what God has given forth or may; with this knowledge, it knows itself at the stroke, for it is itself one of those given things--in fact [it] is all of them. Knowing God and His power, then, it knows itself, since it comes from Him and carries His power upon it; . . . because here the act of vision is identical with the object, it is unable to see God clearly, then all the more, by the equation of seeing and seen, we are driven back upon that self-seeing . . ."

JC: I think this passage is referring to the same--

AD: --same thing--

JC: And he seems to say that the soul when it knows the Nous, it knows that in the Nous-- let's say, it knows itself as an Idea within the Nous, as a real essence contained in the Nous, it's merged its knowing function that the better part of the soul, which is the intellectual aspect of the Soul, that now knowing that archetype of itself, which is in the Nous and becomes one with it, and that's what is given by God.

AD: Yes. God of course here means the World-Mind, the Intellectual-Principle. He often refers to it as the living God. And that's why I'm avoiding the third circle right now, the third zodiac, the highest zodiac. [Idea of Man in Being ring]

JC: Would that be a satisfactory interpretation?

AD: Oh yes. I think you'll find Plotinus pretty consistent and coherent. Want another quote, Avery? (JC inaudible)

AS: Do you have another one? (JC inaudible)

DR: How about the other quote distinguishing the soul from (consciousness)?

AS: I think we should follow from 9. We did V.3.8. the next section in 9 has some nice quotes on that. It's kind of (inaudible). He says:

Plotinus V.3.9 (AS reading): "In order, then, to know what the Divine Mind is we must observe Soul and especially its most God-like phase. [AS: We must go through this.]

"One certain way to this knowledge is to separate first, the man from the body--yourself, that is, from your body; next to put aside that Soul which moulded the body, and, very earnestly, the system of sense with desires and impulses and every such futility, all setting definitely towards the mortal: what is left is the phase of the Soul which we have declared to be an image of the Divine Intellect, retaining some light from that source, like the light of the sun which goes beyond its spherical mass, issues from it and plays about it.

"Of course we do not pretend that the sun's light (as the analogy might imply) remains a self-gathered and sun-centred thing: it is at once outrushing and [so on] . . . The Soul, on the contrary--a light springing from the Divine Mind and shining about it--is in closest touch with that source; it is not in transit but remains centred there, and, in likeness to that principle, it has no place: the light of the sun is actually in the air, but the Soul is clean of all such contact so that its immunity is patent to itself and to any other of the same order.

"And by its [AS: the soul's] own characteristic act, though not without reasoning process, it knows the nature of the Intellectual-Principle which, on its side, knows itself without need of reasoning, for it is ever self-present whereas we become so by directing our Soul towards it; our life is broken and there are many lives, but that principle needs no changings of life or of things; the lives it brings to being are for others, not for itself: it cannot need the inferior; nor does it for itself produce the less when it possesses or is the all, nor the images when it possesses or is the prototype." (silence)

AD: It will be a good beginning for understanding Plotinus. (silence) Maybe next week what we'll do is review (inaudible) from the beginning, just lightly, you know, touch on the major points. Because if Richard has this problem then I think a lot of others are going to have problems trying to recapitulate. What do you think Avery?

AS: Review what from the beginning?

AD: The way we laid out Plotinus in terms of chart.

AS: Oh.

RG(?): What we did in 1832.

S: Yes. (student laughter, comments)

AD: I think we could-- maybe I could review the One, the Intellectual-Principle, and the Soul, (AS: Yes.) well, just to review, a little refresher, because this becomes pretty massive as we go along. It's the only absolute system I know because you can't put everything together at one shot. Can only get little snatches here and there, you know, snapshots. You can never grab the whole thing at one time. Shall we do that? Alright, we'll do that then. You know, it's a strange thing if you read most of the commentators on Plato, Plotinus, any of these people, and there's so many references in Plato where he ACTUALLY is practically speaking astrology. And in the years that I've been studying and reading various commentators, never, never once was astrology brought up.

S: Yes.

AD: Now if you do find one, let me know about it because I'd really like to frame it. It must be the (capital order) today.

[Audio File 1981 0225b (formerly 1981 0225c) Ends]

Anthony Damiani Archive

Class

Wednesday, February 25th, 1981