Sunday, January 17th, 1982

CLASS at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY

with Anthony Damiani (AD)

January 17, 1982

BUDDHISM; ASTROLOGY

with Appendix: Classnotes AB 1982 0117.

TOPIC: Buddhism

SUBJECT: Astrology

SUBSUBJECTS: Vaibhashika, Sautrantika, Abhidhamma (Abhidharma), Yogacara, Dharmas, Skandhas, Vijnana, Bodhicitta, Parts (Arabic Parts), Aspects, Samkhya, Gunas, Matter

CONTENTS:

Vijnana skandha symbolized by angular relation of planets at birth; equivalent to Yogacara's unity of subject and object and Kant's unity of apperception

Vijnana as the subject which has all aspects, progressions, and transits as its content

Progressions correspond to meanings, transits to circumstances; progressions show development of bodhicitta

Vijnana as functional unity but not fixed; equivalent to evolving unit of life/bodhicitta

Vijnana as hater of causality, wants to stay the same

Unfoldment of bodhicitta's potential is in concert with unfoldment of World-Idea

Debate about whether Hinayana schools have concept of bodhicitta/unit of life; reference to Abhidhammakosha and its importance

Natal chart changing very slowly and with utmost resistance on your part

Natal chart shows potential to be actualized; example of attachment being gradually eliminated over time

Definition of bodhicitta in Vaibhashika system as element of desirelessness

Attempt to locate dharmas within astrological framework

Emphasis on making theoretical concepts practical through astrology

Student proposal for correlating chart elements with skandhas/dharmas

Appendix: AB class notes

Opening references

Dharmas/skandhas correlated with astrological elements

Pure sensation vs. conception; Western perspective

Western tendency to postulate substance/matter; for Buddhist, matter does not exist; dharmas held together by functions and unity of cognition

Consciousness is coordinate with degree symbols; all forces must cooperate to produce single item; every dharma is both cause and caused

Comparison of Samkhya and Buddhist systems: dharmas and gunas; time; fabricative and gnostic

Dharmas classified according to five skandhas

Vijnana as subject, contains all aspects, progressions, transits as content/object

Transits as circumstances, progressions as meanings

BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:

• Paul Brunton, The Notebooks

• C.G. Jung, CW 13, Alchemical Studies

• Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya (ed.), Th. Stcherbatsky, Studies in the History of Indian Philosophy, Vol. 3, ""Dharmas" of the Buddhists and the "Gunas" of the Samkhyas"

• Vasubandhu, Abhidharmakosha

• Arya Maitreya, Aryasanga, E. Obermiller (tr.), The Sublime Science of the Great Vehicle to Salvation, Being a Manual of Buddhist Monism

DIAGRAMS referred to (not with this transcript version) [Transcriber note: [diagram] means the speaker is referencing a diagram as he or she is speaking. If someone is drawing or writing, with audible sounds of chalk on a blackboard, I indicate this by [drawing] or [writing].]

NOTES:

• AB class notes have been appended because we are missing one or more audio files for this class. They thus help round out the class. All spelling, capitalization, and punctuation corrected, abbreviations spelled out in AB class notes.

TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT 2023. In 2025, IT updates prefatory matter and audio file markers to match new REP audio. Archival verbatim transcript – V11a.

AUDIO FILES: 1982 0117a (formerly 1984 0618b). [Note 1: "Tape" and "Side" refer to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files. Note 2: We only have the last audio file for this class, we are missing the rest. Note 3: In 2024, REP Studio separates off Audio File 1982 0117a from Audio File 1984 0618b.]

1982 01/17 at Wisdom's Goldenrod

Buddhism; Astrology

[Audio File 1982 0117a (formerly 1984 0618b) Begins]

AD: What, [S: Yeah.] what can I have?

S: A world.

LDS: A vacuum.

AD (simultaneously): I can-- I can have the Yogacara theory too, right?

HS (simultaneously): You have the unity of the subject and the object--

AD: Yeah.

LDS: Yeah.

HS: --in one [LDS: Yeah.] picture.

SP: I mean you s-- the consciousness here is not the consciousness the way we might put it in the fifth house or something.

AD: No, no.

SP (simultaneously): This is the consciousness in-- talked about a ray or an emanation or [AD simultaneously: Good, ok.] something coming out, it has to come out in relation, you know, because it's not a total kind of consciousness, it's the consciousness in relation to this life.

AD (very faint): Uh-hm.

SP: So if-- if it's a consciousness in relation to this life, it has these two-- this sort of inner and outer aspect, this cognitive and fabricative aspect, and the relation of the cognitive and fabirti-- fabricative is symbolized by these-- this angular configuration, is that what you're saying?

AD (very faint): Yeah.

HS: It's almost like it's coming out as the relationship.

S: Right.

SP: Yeah.

HS: As the internal [one/two words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): Well in a little while later on, you remember, the Buddhists are going to say, alright, that the thinker and what he thinks-- in other words, the object of his thinking is not external to him. In a similar way, when you look at a chart and you look at the natal situation of the planets and the aspects and then the progressions and the transits that are going on, they going to all have to be coordinated to each other so that you could reduce-- or let's say that there would be in Kantian terms a unity of apperception. The subject is reflected-- is reflected in the object-- no. The object affords the subject a reflection, he-- in other words, because the existence of the object the subject can know-- be known through that reflection on the object and the object, so to speak, can exist because there's a subject. [SP assents] So you had that unity of apperception.

SP: But this is-- seems to be one aspect of this notion of--

AD: Of vijnana.

SP (simultaneously): --of-- yeah and of dependent origination in the sense that when they say that a-- that the object certifies the subject and the subject certifies the object in the Prasangika system means that-- that they come in this relational or [AD simultaneously: Form, yeah, yeah.] unified kind of functioning.

AD: Ok.

S (faint): Oh but-- yeah.

LR: In saying that the vijnana is this angularity of the-- the time of birth, and that it's this unity of functioning, aren't you saying that in-- what it's bringing together is-- or are you saying that what it's bringing together is as objective as all the ideas as they're broken down and all the soul powers insofar as the planets [AD simultaneously, faint: Say it again, say it again.] are what are on the angular points.

AD (faint): Say it again.

LR: Well you said vijnana means it's bifurcation. And, if you see the angularity as this vijnana, aren't you saying that the two wholes brought together are on the one hand the contents as symbolized by the degrees, [AD, very faint: Yeah.] the ideas.

AD (faint): All that.

LR: And the other hand, when you say angularity you're talking about planets which are on degrees, so that you're bringing in the soul powers.

AD: Well I'm--

LR (simultaneously): And those--

AD: Yeah, I'm bringing in the soul powers, yeah.

LR (simultaneously): So those are the two-- seems to me those are the two poles that are brought together here.

AD (simultaneously): But there'll be more than two, yeah, but there'll be more than two brought together.

LR: No, no--

AD: Because actually what I'm s-- what I'm saying would amount to something like this. You're being asked to read a chart in this triple-fold-- in this triple way: the natal chart that you're born with, and immediately following upon that natal chart is the progressions and transits that are operative. So that there has to be a consciousness which is coordinate to the transits that are going on. This would allow us to have a consciousness which is in continuity but not always the same. So that insofar that the natal chart is gradually transforming the impressions, alright, and the transits are going on, then you have the contents, these transits that are moving around, and the progressions which is the coordinating consciousness, that to which these objects exist, that coordinating consciousness. So you have the two of them working together. I'm trying to-- I'm trying to put everything in the chart now.

S: Can I ask-- [S simultaneously: So, just the--] can I ask about why-- why you use those (and/in) the progressions to establish-- to inform you of the continuity [one/two words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): I'm sorry, why-- go ahead.

S: Why progressions? For a particular [one word inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): Because progressions are the meaning and the transits are the circumstances. [S simultaneously: That's interesting.] And the meanings [AS assents] will refer to a subject or a consciousness.

S (faint): Is it--

AS: Even when we spoke about the development of the bodhicitta or this spark, that would almost be that progression, it's like that natal configuration is gradually being transformed through all these experiences and that's what the progression, like you progress the angular relation and that shows you in some symbolic way the progression or the development of that second soul.

AD: Another way of looking at it is this way. If you really made some progress in your life, you'll see that the big aspect will not be to your natal Saturn but to your progressed Saturn.

AS: But if not--

AD: But if not you'll be going back to your natal Saturn.

DB: So-- (ok) just considering the vi-- the vijnana, the-- the natal-- the natal planets themselves, speaking of-- of that as the starting point, would-- are you saying then that what they mean by the vijnana is the interrelationship, this angularity is the interrelationship of all the faculties of the soul to one another?

AD: No I'm considering [DB simultaneously: Where is that?] the interrelationship of all the planets to one another, alright, as the powers of the soul embodied and representing that consciousness. And their transits, their motion, their movement as this content.

DB: Right. Yeah, I understand that but just the-- just the first part of that, that the consciousness itself, alright, is understood as being the interrelationship of the powers of the soul to themselves?

AD: In relationship to themselves, yes.

DB: Right, and that's--

AD: And the next day they're going to be changed--

DB: Right.

AD: --by progression.

DB: Right, but when-- when-- when you look just at the natal chart and you see this angularity here, and you say that this is the consciousness, this consciousness is constituted of the [one/two words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): Of his embodied powers of the soul.

DB: Right and their i-- and their relationship to themselves.

AS: As a functional unit.

AD (simultaneously): Yeah, (a) functional unity.

DB (simultaneously): As the functional unity, go ahead.

AD: Now you can see there the term functional unity, if you think of it as any kind of static idea you're-- you're going to misconceive it. Where I think a functional unity in this way that I spoke about is discontinuous. I mean, you have let's say a Saturn square Mars one degree when you're born but after a few years let's say, it's not one degree it's two degrees, three degrees, alright.

[student assents, very faint]

DB: That's-- would that be--

AD: That will be the functional unity of consciousness but it's not a fixed unity.

DB (very faint): Right.

S: Can I--

AD (simultaneously): It's not that you always will have it.

DB: And that would be-- would that refer to what-- what the-- quote that Randy read from PB when he spoke of the unit of life? [Note: See Paul Brunton, Notebooks, V16, 26:4.257 & Persp., Ch. 26 #49]

AD: Yes. [student assents, very faint] That would [few inaudible student words simultaneous with AD] be the same as the bodhicitta.

DB: Right.

LR: Which would be?

AD (simultaneously): Which is going to get immersed in this operation.

LR: Which would be the same?

DB (simultaneously): You said it's an ongoing living process.

AD: Yeah, a unit of life which gets projected out from the soul [LR: Right.] is the same as the bodhicitta.

GA (simultaneously): Yeah but, this consciousness [S simultaneously, faint: Yeah (well--)] isn't really that-- [S: Yeah but--] that unit of life but rather the-- it's like the first say modifications or developments that it's going to go through. I mean in a sense that you say it's [S simultaneously: Yeah but--] the-- the angularity of the planets right there you're talking about say a particular causality in a particular lifetime. [LR simultaneously: But I had--] In fact they call vijnana the hater of causality, 'cause it always--

AD: They call it what?

GA: The hater of causality. [S: So--] [S simultaneously: Could you repeat that?] 'Cause it wants to stay the same. So it's like even though you have--

AD (simultaneously): Uh-huh. Yeah-- no, do-- you notice that right?

GA: Yeah. So even though you have these progressions going on right away it keeps wanting to relate to that original pattern of the natal chart. Like it keeps-- I mean, that's--

AS: Kind of like that quote on the Vairocana, it's obedient to the conditions but only under a certain duress. (some laughter, students assent) I mean, 'cause it's these other-- I mean, the functioning of-- (no).

AD (faint): No I thinking that's a whole different context than [one/two words inaudible]

AS (simultaneously): Yeah but I mean I thought it was-- there was-- this was a reflection of that insofar as the vijnana was subject to all of this-- if you say that vijnana's going to be transformed, it's going to be transformed through this constant functioning of the other-- knowing, willing, [AD simultaneously: Yeah.] and feeling. [GA simultaneously: It's associated.] And in that sense it's-- it's being led or constantly determined and modified by these other functions. The vijnana is the--

LR (simultaneously): But in what you're saying is--

LR/S(?): Yeah.

AS: Well [one/two words inaudible]

AD: Well didn't-- didn't he say that-- didn't he say that that fragment of life is this-- which is projected out from the soul unfolds? Now, [S simultaneously: Yeah, it's the other--] if it unfolds, if it unfolds I would assume that all the potential which is-- [AS: Already in it.] which is already within it, alright, would have to be made explicit by placing itself at particular positions, you know, [student assents] in the time scale of let's say a world era. So that the soul unfolds, that bit of life unfolds from within itself this content.

AS: I know but that seems to be-- that's the other view. On the one hand, it is unfolding what's within it and we say the angular relations are a symbol for--

AD (simultaneously): Well, it can only unfold what's within it [AS simultaneously: Yeah. But--] given-- it's gotta be given that world condition.

AS (simultaneously): Yeah. No I'm saying that angular relation is then a symbol for the higher soul's state, for the-- for the level of the soul that's operating. [AD simultaneously: Yeah, uh-hm.] But on the same [GA simultaneously: But--] time, once it places itself within the context of the cosmos, it's like you cou-- it's now determined in a way. In some way all the [student assents, faint] events--

GA: Exactly, the co-- the vijnana here--

AD (simultaneously): Yeah, [few inaudible student words simultaneous with AD] because we're saying that it's going to make explicit what's within it. [AS assents] [couple faint inaudible student words] The unfolding won't take place just by itself.

AS: Right, and that's the other side, that it requires all of this evoking through these vehicles in order for this inherent or potential knowledge to be made applicable.

AD: Yeah Gabriel?

GA: Well I-- I must insist. The vijnana here-- they don't even have a concept of bodhicitta or unit life. This vijnana is totally-- you can't isolate it.

AD: They don't have-- they don't have that in the Hinayana system?

GA (simultaneously): Well then-- then I'm trying to say you can't isolate it at-- as something in itself in the sense that it always is something in relation to some other functioning. And to isolate it completely and say well it has all this potential which is going to unfold or do ide-- to identify the vijnana with, you know, the-- you know, as the soul per se or the-- the unit life, I don't think is at least what they-- I'm not disagreeing but you can't have it both ways at once. If this is the Hinayana scheme, I don't think that's what they meant.

RC (faint): Well you can say that a consciousness that exists in relation would have the ultimate destiny of knowing without (it).

GA: They're speaking of the relat-- of the relations.

RC (faint): Yeah.

GA: And they're not explaining the relation of the relations to-- to the soul, nor how those relations are an unfoldment of the soul, they're not explaining that part. They're just explaining the relations.

HS: Yeah but in that the-- in that like it's almost talking about the fourfold, that they have this, you know-- they have a way out of suffering so to say. There seems to be-- that's one of their implications that they're working with is the bodhicitta. Maybe they don't explicate it.

GA: Yeah, well yeah, I'd say there is [few words inaudible]

HS (simultaneously): But in that (you/they) could get-- (even/in) their claim, the whole claim is you could get out, so to speak.

GA (simultaneously): Yeah, but what I'm saying is if-- if you explicated it you'd have a different system. So why work with (this/a) system and then keep bringing in all this other stuff?

HS: I see.

GA: That that's-- [S simultaneously: Just--] that-- [HS simultaneously: I think that--] Maybe I'm just saying you're having it-- you have it both ways at once, and (so--)

HS (simultaneously): I think we're trying to (lead) as a-- (a/as) sort of the whole view though, Gabriel.

S: You know--

AS (simultaneously): I don't really follow the--

GA (simultaneously): Get-- I mean I don't--

AS (faint): I'm not sure I follow the [one word inaudible]

GA: It seems that in ex-- explicating this system, you changing it-- you're changing it into another system.

S (very faint): Right.

AS: Calls it-- calls it pure-- I mean I'm sure he doesn't mean that but he calls it--

GA: To me, I-- it's--

AS (faint): [few words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): I-- could you tell me how we're changing it? You're saying that the Vaibhashikas and the Sautrantikas or the Hinayana school doesn't have a notion of bodhicitta?

GA: Not in this-- not in a sense that you're using it, no. But sure there's some-- they--

AD (simultaneously): I'll get-- I'll go get you the s-- the text.

AS: I don't know what-- I'm not sure what you mean, I mean--

AD: Well--

AS: Don't follow.

HS/S(?): Give him a (quote/coat).

AS: They don't have [few inaudible student words simultaneous with AS] a word, they probably don't have a (word--) (laughter)

AD (amidst laughter): But I'll get you the text on that! (more laughter)

GA (amidst laughter): I'm not-- I'm not saying--

AD (simultaneously, amidst laughter): I'll get you all the text-- all the textual references you want that the Hinayana school has the notion of bodhicitta but it's not going to be called bodhicitta.

GA: Yeah.

S: Uh-hm, yeah.

GA: The wish to be free from-- from changing--

AD (simultaneously): The-- (Gabriel/Avery) we're talking about-- we're talking about the Abhidhammakosha. [spoken intensely] The whole Abhidhamma school, one of the most elite schools in Buddhism, [S simultaneously: Don't you agree with (the) (one word inaudible)] that itemized every single item of experience to the point that if you really understood them, you've gained release!

PD: No according to the Hinayanas and (Theravadas), the Mahayana is the aberration of the original teachings. (laughter) That's-- no, you gotta keep that framework open that that is not only one point of view on these.

GA: Well I know. I'm just saying that--

AD (simultaneously): Well, I think what we're going to see, what we're going to see if we work with this, we're going to see an enormous elaboration coming from the Mahayana school and furthering what we see here. But the Vaibhashika and the Sautrantikas laid the groundwork, the whole Hina-- Hinayana system laid the groundwork.

GA: Yeah but when you bring in all these-- you're bringing in all these planets, where-- show it to me in their system.

AS: Well that's-- I mean--

AD (simultaneously): Oh no, I'm not bringing you-- I-- I'm not bringing that-- [GA simultaneously: I mean if-- I--] I'm not saying you're going to find what I'm doing in any system.

GA: Well I think you would find a great deal of what you're doing in their system somewhere else.

AD (simultaneously): Otherwise I'd go back to longshoreman but at least when I wanted pineapple juice I just stuck my hook in a can and got it. (laughter)

LR: Can we get back to [one/two words inaudible] (laughter)

AS (amidst laughter): [few words inaudible] pineapple juice that time. [few words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): The Abhidhammakosa is so enormous, the learning that went into putting it together is a fabulous product of-- of the human mind. And I don't happen to like Vasubandhu. (bit of laughter) I consider him really overrated. Just like Nagarjuna. Don't get the idea that I didn't go into Buddhism. Don't get that idea. I may not know the texts that are being published today but I went through the entire Hinayana-- all those white books that are in the library. (bit of laughter) You don't think I gave them away without reading them?

LR: Can we get back to this? (some laughter)

AD: Yeah let's get back to this.

LR: I have a basic--

AD: Is it bodhicitta or isn't it?

LR: If what you s-- been saying, if--

AD: If you remember that quotation that you got from PB is identical with Plotinus' doctrine. Identical!

LR: Yes it is. It's very straight [one/two words inaudible]

AD: Now you mean to tell me that there was no Sages in the Hinayana tradition?

LR: Chip, that wasn't asked to you.

AD: No, all I'm trying to do is this--

GA (simultaneously): (He) was looking at you.

AD: I'm [GA simultaneously: But he did say--] gonna-- I'm working with the theory that these people really knew what they were doing. All I want to do is put it in a term and a context and a framework that I can understand.

LR: Can I ask you some-- What you're saying about this vijnana, what you've just said about that and the transits and the progressions and that it's no so-- it's no standing [AD, faint: Uh-hm.] consciousness, it's this functional-- I'm-- I get a little confused because it seems like all you'd be looking at then when you looked at the natal chart would be everything that refused to change and cooperate. (laughter)

AD: Well isn't that your chart? (bit of laughter) [one word inaudible] who goes out-- who goes along with the changes?

LR: Why would you want to look at that!? I mean, you're saying it's changing every instant, it's just fixed for the second you're born in--

AD (simultaneously): But-- but very very slowly. And with the utmost resistance on your part.

LR: I noticed that.

AS: No but-- (laughter) there is-- Anthony, you know when you [LR simultaneously: Go ahead.] said that it's fi-- it's fixed at birth for an instant and then it's constantly changing, interesting thing is like the-- [LR simultaneously: Wait.] the pa-- the parts however as these potential understanding, those are kind of seem to be fixed for-- for the lifetime. In other words, that angular relation, it's gone the next instant 'cause it begins progressing. But that stamp that it leaves [couple words inaudible] on that 360 degrees, the degrees are meanings it pulls out, those seem to be--

AD (simultaneously): Yeah just-- I follow that but the complication is this, at one and the same time, let's say, your past weighs very heavily on you and it should because you've assi-- let's say you've taken those lessons or those experiences into you and it's going to be the matter of your intelligence later on. You remember we spoke about, he spoke about from germ to human intelligence. [AS assents] And we spoke about it in a different way, that incorporated in the body is all this intelligence, the three brains [AS assents] that you've got to work with. So, the body itself is a mystery. In this mystery there's all this intelligence. I forgot what I said.

AS: Yeah [S simultaneously: Yeah.] ('cause all for) the--

LR (simultaneously): Its stamp.

AS: Yeah.

AD (simultaneously): Yeah, so-- so naturally, once a person acquires a certain position, a certain stance, alright, and then he's got to change and go to a new position, on the one hand he doesn't want to let that go, alright, it's got to become vasana-- it's got to become material for future growth, and at the other hand it-- the new stuff has got to come in. So he's like-- he wants to hold both positions. [students assent] He doesn't want the new to come in and he doesn't want to let go of the old.

LR: Right.

AD: But he's gotta do both!

AS: Right I just-- that's-- (I thought I could) [AD simultaneously: Yeah.] [one word inaudible] Plotinus [one/two words inaudible]

LR (simultaneously): But--

AD: We're still on one skandha by the way.

S: Isn't that often--

LR (simultaneously): Well I know, I know, I'm trying to really understand what you see. But if you say that that moment doesn't last for more than a moment and that it's changed-- it's altered within one minute already, [AD: It's--] what are you saying about that natal chart or that angularity which makes it so much more important than looking at the next moment or the next moment or the next moment if it's actually-- I'm not saying this very well (either).

AD (faint): No.

LR: Ok. The way you were speaking about that angularity at birth was as just a point in time which immediately began to be altered and worked over, alright. [S simultaneously: Yeah how (three/few words inaudible)] Yet, there ha-- there's something about that moment of birth which makes one keep looking at that as the starting point for looking at any progressions or transits, I mean--

AD: Yes.

LR: --it's not-- it's not entirely altered, [AD simultaneously: How come?] it's-- it does have-- [AD, possibly talking to someone in background: Huh?] it does have enough meaning such that you always refer back to the natal chart rather than the progressed chart.

AD (simultaneously): Well-- well again, again, this is very difficult but I'll try to do it this way. The moment-- the moment that the person is born, alright, and there is the ex-- exactitude of the planets on certain degrees, alright, you say this is the potential in this chart. Now, on the one hand, on the one hand he seems to participate in the fulfillment of the chart because all the planets, so to speak, in their angular-- in their angularity position contain all the parts, and all the parts are already included (in a--) the unific way into the meaning that has structured you originally. Then the actualization of this is the slow process of that potential becoming actual. [students assent, faint] And you can actually observe, you can watch this very carefully if let's say you've ever had a-- an attachment to something. Over a period of years, and it may take a period of years before that's gradually eliminated. The-- there might-- there might have to be a terrific pounding of many aspects before you gradually relinquish the hold on that attachment. And you can see this very subtle compulsive-- compulsiven-- compulsiveness being gradually relinquished. I'm speaking about us as ordinary people, I'm not speaking about the Sage who just takes a sword, like that guy does, [Note: Reference to statue at WG.] cuts it right off. That's the hero, I'm a coward. I don't let go. I hold on, I keep holding on. After getting clubbed a dozen times over a dozen years, I finally let go. And to watch, and this is the magnificent thing about astrology, and what Paracelsus was talking about, if you don't-- if you're not aware of these influences going on in yourself, you don't know astrology. You just know the symbols that they use. But you can actually watch these influences letting go, or the reverse, growing, you know. It works both ways but I'm taking this one because I've particularly observed it. And you can see that relinquishment gradually, little by little, being-- that compulsiveness weakening, weakening, and gradually it's not there no longer and you don't have to act compulsively. And of course you're going to take all the credit. (some laughter)

AB: Anthony, the [LR: Yeah but, as long as you--] biggest thing-- because the Vaibhashika defines the bodhicitta as this element of desirelesness which allows you to gradually relinquish.

LR (faint): [few words inaudible]

AD: You mean that was-- Yeah.

AB: That's their definition of it is this element of desirelessness. So it seems that that's what underlies or actuates this growth process in which you gradually cease clinging more and more, and when it's in its full fruit you have a Sage who doesn't grasp at all. That's (like/the) actualization of the bodhicitta.

AD (simultaneously): That's one of the mental components?

AB: Well they--

S (simultaneously): [one word inaudible] yeah, right, uh-hm.

AB (simultaneously): I was reading-- The way [HS(?) simultaneously: (Yeah.)] they define it in the Vaibhashika is that it's an element, a specific element or a dharma which corresponds with--

GA: Cessation.

AB: Cessation and desirelessness. And that represents the essential character of a Sage.

AD: Yeah but tell me, is it one of the dharmas? Is it included in one of [GA simultaneously: Yes.] the mental concomitants?

AB: I think so.

AS: Or is it non-analytical cessation?

GA (simultaneously): It's considered one of the-- [student assents, very faint] it's a dharma, eternal--

SP: Right.

AS: Isn't that one of the three eternal ones you-- you're-- you're naming, Alan? Analytic or non-analytic cessation?

S: (Ok), there's different ones.

AD (simultaneously): Because if-- if that is so--

GA (simultaneously): But that-- that's the point though, the definition of a Sage for them is that desirelessness, state of--

AD: Yeah but I'm asking, [few inaudible student words simultaneous with AD] is that one of the dharmas?

AB: It's not clear in here. I mean he-- he refers--

AD (simultaneously): You see, if that's one of the dharmas then we could say well maybe it refers to certain aspects or maybe it refers to certain degree. Maybe we could pinpoint it and find out what that is. And the next time when we're reborn make sure we have a planet there.

S: Uh-huh.

GA: Ok.

AB: They're calling it a special element.

AD: Yeah, special element.

AB (simultaneously): But he does not use the word 'dharma' in this right here.

AS: What's the name Alan, does he have a Sanskrit? It's not that important. It's ok.

AB: No.

S (faint, possibly part of background): [few words inaudible]

MW (simultaneously): Again also the way they define the gotra for the Vaibhashika, [couple inaudible AB words simultaneous with MW] absence of desire and grasping. Gotra--

AD (simultaneously): And they're saying it's inherent in the gotra?

AS (simultaneously): Yeah. I think that's what this--

AD: Yeah they had three distinguishing characteristics of the gotra, the fulfillment of which leads to Sagehood. [AB simultaneously: Yeah, it says--] And one of them was desirelessness?

AB: Right.

[Transcriber note: I am using Acta Orientalia, Vol. IX, Parts II, III, The Sublime Science of the Great Vehicle to Salvation, being a Manual of Buddhist Monism, the Work of Arya Maitreya with a Commentary by Aryasanga, translated by E. Obermiller, published by Lugduni Batavorum: E. J. Brill, 1931.]

Maitreya, Asanga, Obermiller (tr.) [The Sublime Science, p. 97, AB reading]: "…absence of desire, [MW simultaneously, faint: (one word inaudible) absence of enmity--] absence of enmity, and absence of infatuation which are [called] the 3 [principal] roots of virtue. [Of these three], the element of absence of desire is that which represents the essential character of the Saint and the [AB emphasizes following word] element conducive to Salvation."

S: [one/two words inaudible]

HS (simultaneously): It's one of the 46--

AD (simultaneously): They're saying element so that that would have to be a dharma.

HS: It's one of the 46 mental elements under the 10 universe-- the good moral forces present in every favorable moment of consciousness, number 6.

AD: Then that's got to be-- we've got to be able to locate that in the chart. That's what I'm talking about, I want to place it in cosmology. If I [couple/three inaudible AS words simultaneous with AD] can't find a degree where this means desirelessness so that I could watch-- I could watch what happens there, then it's going to remain theory! If I can't locate these doctrines in cosmology, it's theory!

AB: Well if the Vai-- [S simultaneously, faint: I think it's one of the functions.] if the Vaibhashikas were correct then it would-- and it was a dharma then you would have to find it in the grid.

AD: Yeah.

AB: (But/By) the very way we're defining [couple words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): But then if we do that, if we [few inaudible student words simultaneous with AD] do that, then the-- don't you see then, it's no more speculative philosophy? It's practical philosophy. [S, faint: Saturn in Libra. (Note: Reference to AD's Saturn at Libra 6.)] It's not theoretical, it's actual! [GA assents] And astrology could use this. Or we could use it in-- if it's-- if it's one of the parts, then we'd have to observe that very carefully. And cooperate with it when it happens. How many times I tell a person, you gettin' a good aspect, don't get into trouble, stay alone, be a hermit. What do you think they do? They go to the bar that day! Well, we had enough today. Go ahead.

S (faint): Go ahead.

LR (faint): Yeah.

AD: They're all back here anyway. (laughter)

SP: (You had a) good aspect (Lauren). (laughter)

AD: We'll try-- we'll try, Avery, and whoever we can get together, we'll try during the week to pinpoint [AS simultaneously: I have an idea.] these skandhas.

AS: Can I-- [S, faint: Yeah.] I have a--

AD: You got an idea?

AS: I have a-- [AD simultaneously: Ok.] for a-- for a very general idea that you might-- it may be--

AD: Well, you going to [AS simultaneously: I could--] hoard it or you're going to get it distributed?

AS (simultaneously): No, no, I was gonna-- (some laughter) I was going to distribute it so it could get destroyed. The-- then I won't have to think about it. (bit of laughter) If-- if you s-- starting--

(Side 1 of original cassette tape digitized as 1982 0117a (formerly 1984 0618b) Ends; Side 2 Begins)

AS: --it seems like the other-- the other three or four, the other dharmas should-- should be like whole different ways of seeing that angular relation. In other words, if you take that original angural-- angular relation out of that you can get first an aspect pattern, the whole aspect pattern. Next you can get all the parts, you get all the positions by sign, say, and you get all the positions by house. And you just take something general like that. [AD: Yeah.] Then for example would the 14 forces and samskaras represent the aspect pattern say, the 44 mental concomitants, really 90, would be all the meanings, the mental concomitants or the meanings. The rupa-- the ayatanas would be the houses and the signs or the-- the positions by the ele-- if you say the rupa of one side was the elements, that would represent the four-- the four elements as part of its positions by sign. And the other one would be, say, the position by house. In other words, all the others were showing the various unfoldment or individuation of that planetary configuration, but that would be almost primary to it it seems.

AD (faint): (What's purusa?)

AS: That's the light of the soul (I think).

AD (simultaneously, faint): Let's (concentrate on that). Let's leave the whole board. [drawing] [few very faint inaudible words]

AS: I'm just trying to see some way of categorizing all the elements of the chart according--

AD: You know-- these are not really deep. But [AS assents] if we do this here, if we do this here, now that circle there, alright, if we do this here-- [short pause while drawing] and-- [one inaudible student word] Ok? We got the Kalachakra there [diagram].

AS (faint): Yeah. (bit of laughter)

S (faint): Yeah.

AS/AB(?): That's good.

[10¾ seconds of background student talking, laughter]

AD (faint): Alright we'll continue (in the morning). [11½ seconds of background student talking, laughter] Well--

S: It's the vicious circle.

RG: The vicious circle. (bit of laughter)

[background student talking till the end]

[Audio File 1982 0117a (formerly 1984 0618b) Ends]