Monday, June 4th, 1973

EVENT at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY

with Anthony Damiani (AD)

June 4, 1973

PB VISIT TALK; VIC & ELAINE MANSFIELD

TOPIC: PB Visit

SUBJECT: Vic & Elaine Mansfield

SUBSUBJECTS: The Quest, Drugs, Diet, Parenting, Hatha Yoga, Astrology, Wisdom's Goldenrod

CONTENTS:

THE PATH TO MEETING PB

FIRST MEETING WITH PB

PB'S PLANS TO MOVE; TWO TYPES OF SEEKERS; THE CENTER NEAR WATER; TEACHING AND SELF-KNOWLEDGE

PB'S APPROACH TO FOOD AND DIET; SPICY COOKING

CULTIVATING DEVOTION; THE NEED FOR PATIENCE

PB ON DRUGS; VALID BUT NOT REAL; LEARY AND ALPERT

PARENTING ADVICE; NATURE'S INSTRUMENT OF LOVE; PB'S DIRECTNESS

LONG MEDITATIONS

DAY AT PB'S APARTMENT; DAVID'S BEHAVIOR; PB'S TOYS

HATHA YOGA; KUNDALINI; BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS

MAKING PB'S BED

PB'S SIESTA; MEETING IN THE PARK; MONTREUX LANDSCAPE

MISPRINTS IN PB'S BOOKS; CHRIST FROM ANOTHER PLANE; BEINGS ON OTHER PLANETS

TUNISIAN TEA ROOM; ARAB CIVILIZATION DURING DARK AGES; REGRET ARABS DIDN'T CONQUER ALL OF EUROPE

QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CENTER; AD FAVORS ADVAITA; SAMKHYA-ASTROLOGY WORK; PB ASKS ABOUT PUBLICATION; TONY'S TEACHING METHODS

ONE IDEA FROM DIFFICULT CLASS SUFFICIENT; RUNNING FOR THE BUS; PB'S STAMINA

SUPPER; PSYCHADELIC LIGHTING; PB'S HUMOR

NECESSITY OF DISCIPLINING DAVID; SETTING GOOD EXAMPLE; NIPPING EVIL IN THE BUD

PB'S CONVERSATIONAL STYLE; ANSWERING LETTERS MENTALLY; DEATH AND KARMA; AFTER-DEATH HELPERS; LIMITED FREE WILL; DETACHMENT AND PEACE

PB PLAYS WITH DAVID; "I LOVE YOU, PB!"

PB'S CHINESE DÉCOR; PICTURES OF SAGES; RAMANA STORY

ELAINE'S PAST INCARNATION IN CHINA; ANTHROPOLOGIST'S VISIT TO RAMANA; SPIRITUAL RIPENESS; VIC'S INITIAL RESISTANCE

IMPORTANCE OF RELIGIOUS EDUCATION FOR CHILDREN; MAHABHARATA AND LIFE OF CHRIST

SAGE TEA; LOCAL CHOCOLATE

TEA ROOM ENCOUNTER; RESISTANCE MELTS; INTENSE DEVOTION

GURU MOUNTAIN AND THE KRISHNAMURTIS

REVOLUTION; HELPING OTHERS; SELF-KNOWLEDGE FIRST

QUESTIONS ABOUT CENTER; MEDITATIONS; ZEN APPROACH

ASTROLOGY; TONY'S CONTRIBUTION; PUBLICATION QUESTION

PB'S NEW WORK; EVENTUAL PUBLICATION; QUESTIONS ABOUT GROUP'S FUTURE

MAHARAJ JI; ALAN WATTS; CHAPEL HOUSE; CORNELL LIBRARY

MEDITATION AND PAST KARMA; TOLERANCE FOR GROUPS; MAO CRITICISM; RESPECTING ELDERS

GRACE

STUDENTS HAVE AD AS TEACHER; PB AVAILABLE FOR IMPORTANT MATTERS

PERSONAL REACTIONS; IMPROVED MEDITATION

SPIRITUAL BOOKS FOR CHILDREN; QUESTER COUPLES ATTRACT QUESTER SOULS

PSYCHOLOGY VS. PHILOSOPHY; JUNG'S LIMITS; PSYCHOLOGY ENDLESS

COMMENTS ON CENTER; AMERICAN PIONEERS; CENTER AS SANCTUARY

BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:

• Paul Brunton, The Inner Reality (Discover Yourself)

• Swami Kuvalayananda, Asanas

• Swami Kuvalayananda, Pranayama

• Vyasa, Mahabharata

• Ralph Shirley (ed.), The Occult Review

NOTES:

• See PB Visits 1 (Goldenrod Interviews) at https://www.pbarchives.org/archive/document/writing/94. Search "Vic and Elaine Mansfield" in the text-searchable PDF for the notes that formed the basis of this talk; most but not all were presented.

TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT 2025 (V14.1a) on the basis of V14r, with three more passes, updated prefatory matter, footer, and audio file name, expanded Book List, altered TOC/Subheads, green highlighting removed to make usable for web, new formatting to accord with new conventions. Originally transcribed by Transcription Puppy/JRM 2019; reformatted by JRM/JF 2019-2020, with TOC/Subheads by JRM. Archival verbatim transcript – V14.1a.

AUDIO FILES: 1973 0604a, 1973 0604b, 1973 0604c.

1973 06/04 at Wisdom's Goldenrod

PB Visit Talk; Vic & Elaine Mansfield

Archival Verbatim Transcript

[Audio File 1973 0604a Begins]

THE PATH TO MEETING PB

VM: Whatever I say about PB or in fact anyone is really, in large part anyway, a reflection of my psychology and where I'm at at the moment, probably a lot more than just the truth about PB.

S (faint): Who's PB?

VM: Well, I don't know.

S: Go on.

[short pause followed by laughter]

S (amidst laughter): That's too much [one/two words inaudible]

S: No better way to (pin) the class.

VM: Yeah, any questions now? (laughter)

JL: What happened?

EM: Just start at the beginning.

VM: Yeah I'll start at the beginning.

S (faint): Just start at the be--

S: How was the trip?

VM: It was excellent.

EM (faint): Just start-- start (with beginning), we arrived totally in--

VM: Oh yeah. (laughter)

EM (faint): Give me some credit.

VM: See we wrote to PB once a long time ago, nearly year and a half ago and he said, "Not at this time." So that was a bit disappointing but ok. And then we wrote him again, he says "No. Not now either." And that hurt a little more because I'd concocted this whole trip of giving a paper in Italy at a scientific conference and got my way paid and all that sort of thing and I said, "Oh boy. PB has set it all up for me, isn't he wonderful?" (laughter) And then he showed me that I don't know what I'm talking about. But fortunately Noel interceded for us and arranged it.

But, things happened so quickly at the end just before we left that we didn't know what the dates were for the meeting. So she said that-- or we arranged with her that she would write to this conference way down in southern Italy. Well it turns out that there was a mail strike in Italy. [S: Uh-oh.] So we found out about this and said, "Well we'll call you as soon as we get to the conference if your letter isn't there already." Well we got there and her letter wasn't there. In fact the telegram that I sent to southern Italy three weeks before hadn't got there so-- We tried to-- to call Zurich. In fact Elaine did most of the calling. And, after three days of real strenuous calling and yelling, "Pronto, pronto"--

EM: Three hours a day.

VM: Nothing, it was-- they claimed that there was no such number that we were calling. We were-- information claimed that there was no person with a phone number of this a-- you know, at this address and so on.

Elaine knew that Beau-- that Noel's husband Beau worked in a Zurich opera house so she called there and they said they never heard of the guy. (laughter) So I was really freaked out. And, then we said well, we'll try a telegram even though I don't have much faith in telegrams since, you know, the one I sent three weeks ago isn't even here yet. But within 24 hours we got an answer so everything cleared up after that.

So then we went north and spent some time in Italy and we got to Zurich, or to Montreux. So I called PB up on the phone and like everybody I guess who calls him for the first time, kind of tense, but PB is very sweet and very-- very considerate and so on, he puts-- does-- at least it appears that he does his best to put you at ease and we arranged a meeting.

FIRST MEETING WITH PB

VM, cont.: We were supposed to meet on the 23rd but he says, "Well I also have some time tonight. So I'll-- I can come by your hotel." He wanted to make it as easy for us as possible since we had David and there was a question of where we put him to bed and so on and so forth, so he said he'd come to our hotel. Since he was out of town that day, he said, "Well I'll be in on the 6:05 train and it'd take me ten minutes at most to walk to your hotel" and I told him the number of the room and so on.

So I thought I would stand outside in front of the hotel on the street and thereby help, you know, so PB wouldn't have to run around and find out where room 7 was and all that. So I got out in the street about 6:10 and I'm waiting, 6:15 there's no PB, 6:20 there's no PB, 6:30 there's no PB, and I'm-- all these things are going through my mind. "Well everybody's always told me how punctual PB was, you know, like what's going on here," and-- I mean I was already pretty wired up to start with so this didn't help. And I'm waiting and waiting, 6:45 no PB, 7 o'clock no PB, and I just--

I knew I'd see him, I mean I-- at least I thought I'd see him because I did talk to him on the phone and all that. But I-- I was I guess kind of discouraged and my feet hurt from standing up there. (bit of laughter) So I walked inside the hotel.

And it's kind of interesting the way the hotel was arranged. There's a big driveway that went up to the-- to the side of the hotel and there's a big sign there, two big arrows, saying the entrance to the hotel is in the back. And right near that sign there's a small path which leads across the front of the hotel where we had a room in the front. We were slightly below the grounds, there was a picture window that was maybe three feet off the ground level, it looked out front. In fact this path was very rarely used so there was three spare tires sitting on the steps.

And-- anyway I came in and I was kind of discouraged and I just lay down on the bed 'cause my feet hurt. And-- well I-- I don't know, I was just laying there and I said , "You know Elaine, I won't believe I'll see PB until I see him face to--" I didn't get out the face-- last face part and Elaine says, "There he is!" (laughter) There's this little man with a little hat on, he's looking through the window and I'm laying on the bed. (laughter) So I jumped ahead and started-- zoomed out there and all discombobulated and I said, "How did you know I was in the-- this room, you know, how--" yeah, how did you know. (laughter) PB didn't-- of course he didn't say how he (knows, well I--) he just knew. So I was (laughter) beside myself to some extent. And-- So he came into the room and sat down, it was--

What did he say, well, not-- I don't know. But PB was-- Like I had the-- I had so many expectations which I knew I shouldn't have, you know, you-- you know all these things but nonetheless you do them anyway, (that) impossible, (I--) I had all kinds of expectations, I thought there would be these great stony silences or-- PB turned out, at least with me, and I-- from what I've learned from others, to be rather chatty and-- and would ask questions and would talk about the weather and the restaurants in town and he'd recommend that you eat here and there and so on. So that helped in a way to-- you know, to break the tension a little bit and David was there and he helped a lot by chasing all around and making a racket and trying to get PB to play with him and stuff like that. (laughter) And, David would hand toys to PB and he'd take the toy, so--

David didn't quite know what to do but he was obviously very strongly affected by it because he's usually a very energetic kid but he was a wild man around PB. And, I had a few messages from-- that-- or just one or two messages that Tony wanted me to relate to PB and we talked about these things.

And-- well what else happened? You know, I'm trying to do it chronologically. And I-- one of the things we did, which Tony recommended, and I'm glad we did although it was an effort, was after we'd meet with PB we'd come back and although we were really exhausted-- For me it was like being around like ten thousand volts all the time being around PB. So you'd come back and you just lay in bed. (laughter) But we stayed up and at least jotted-- jotted down, you know, like broad topics anyway. So I'll have to--

S (faint): What do you think they say about [couple words inaudible]

PB'S PLANS TO MOVE; TWO TYPES OF SEEKERS; THE CENTER NEAR WATER; TEACHING AND SELF-KNOWLEDGE

VM: Oh yeah. Yeah, this is really interesting in light of the class we had Friday night. I'll skip over a lot of this sort of personal stuff. (You know, I asked) questions about my own meditation, some of the problems I was going through and so on. I don't think they're really of general interest. If it is of general interest I'll try and remember.

EM (faint): Well the first time in conversation [one word inaudible] he said he was going to move.

VM: Oh yeah, he said he was going to move and I said, well do you know where. He said he was going to move within a year-- in about a year. So I said do you know where. He said no I didn't, so I said to him well I'm sure you know there's a lot of sentiment for you to take a visit or move to Ithaca. (laughter) Maybe it ended on Tony's part but I know a lot of us would like to see him.

S: PB's fun.

VM: And he-- he was just silent. (laughter)

S: He's a prudent man.

VM: And, he said-- he said something very interesting, as I say especially in light of Friday's class. He said in a group like this, there are roughly two kinds-- or basically two kinds of people. There are those seeking some sort of psychoanalysis, or some sort of healing, and there are those seeking truth. And there's a real big difference between the two. If I understood what was going on Friday night, Tony tried to show us a difference between feeling or psychoanalysis or psychology and-- and truth.

And he was ask-- we talked a little bit about the Center and I guess from AnnDrea and other people who knew something about the Center and sent some pictures and so on. He was glad that the Center was near water. He said that the yogis had always found that meditating near water, whether it be a lake or a stream or river, was always helpful. And not just for aesthetic reasons but for more profound reasons. Also on top of mountains.

Well then we went out to dinner. And-- oh on the way we talked a little bit about teaching. He was saying how-- I told him I was going to teach in the fall. He said well that's very nice, so I-- traditionally in India the teacher would weave spiritual matters in with his more secular sort of teaching. And, I said to him, well, I can barely conceive of myself teaching physics, certainly not doing anything beyond that. And he says well, my job now is to find out who I am. So I said, "Correct."

PB'S APPROACH TO FOOD AND DIET; SPICY COOKING

VM, cont.: So then we got to this restaurant and-- This is very funny, you know. Everybody who goes there always has something to say about PB's comments on diet or the way PB eats and some people come back and say oh he doesn't eat at all or if he eats he doesn't eat this, doesn't eat that, doesn't eat this. With us he ate a lot and he seemed very flexible about what he-- what he ate. For example, he said, "Well I don't usually eat onions but if they're served to me I'll eat them." On the other hand, he is extremely careful not to have dairy products and butter and things like that.

Also the thing that struck me too is that PB wouldn't just follow somebody's rules as to what to eat. He would be very careful to try different kinds of foods and note the effect on himself, on his bodies and so forth. Well, he was very interested in digestibility of foods. He says one of the big problems that food reformers or food faddists have is they always talk about the vitamin-- vitamin [with British accent] and mineral content but they don't worry about digestibility and that's a big failing. And-- Well, all I can really remember from that dinner is little David was inhaling spaghetti. (laughter) What else happened there Elaine? (laughter)

EM: David was-- I don't know, the whole time it was just a-- he was obsessed or just putting a big show on for-- to get a handshake from PB, and that was what he's doing when we went out to eat. It was very painful.

AD: He (continues to do that).

EM (simultaneously): [couple words inaudible] He was attacking this [couple words inaudible] soda. (laughter) She was-- she was nice about it, I mean she would like [couple words inaudible] (laughter) It was-- he was never ending maniac for attention.

VM: Yeah. This is (reflecting right off his) tables.

EM: Is-- let's finish the other thing.

S (very faint): Ok, (let's finish).

EM: Another thing that, I don't know, might interest some people who are into cooking, which interested me, that PB says (we'll) get all foods the proper way. Or--

VM (simultaneously): He loves to talk.

EM: We talked about food like three quarters of the time. Anyway he was-- he said like vegetables should be quite well cooked. And, I know like from my point of view I-- I was brought up on the-- on the idea, sort of health food idea that things that are less cooked are-- have more vitamins, vitamins, [with British accent] less-- He said that-- that they might have more vitamins just as they stand, but since your body can't digest them it doesn't do any good. So he cooked his food very-- so it was quite soft. Ok, I think that's wrapped up food. He offered us eggs, he offered us drinks, he offered us chocolate, you know, and he-- [VM simultaneously: You know, it's funny.] He cooked this very very spicy curried food, [VM: Yeah, after one meal.] beans like dal and-- (laughter) Sorry, I think the food thing is just totally individual. We were dying with his hot food. (laughter, clapping)

VM: He's something. Even Tony I thought he-- I thought his food would be so bland and [one word inaudible]

AD: Oh no, I--

VM (simultaneously): I see him stand this poor guy--

AD (simultaneously): Now you see what I have to go through. (laughter)

S (amidst laughter): And I stand there.

EM: He said "I like to give--" Then he mentioned how he spiced the food and he said, "Yes I like to make my food enjoyable." (laughter)

AD: I used to try to implore him, tell him it's enjoyable without that.

CULTIVATING DEVOTION; THE NEED FOR PATIENCE

VM: Nothin' doin'. (laughter) Well then after-- after dinner we went back to the hotel and-- and we talked there for a while and-- Well I had a discussion with him about some questions in meditation and so on. One of the things that he stressed and-- well how applicable this is for you I guess you'd have to decide but it might be-- it might be appropriate, at least for some. And he really stressed, for me anyway, that I had to develop my devotional-- the devotional side of my nature, and try and bring more of that into meditation. And for me lately that's been tough so I-- you know, it certainly seemed correct that he should stress that.

He also stressed constantly through the course of the few days that we were there that meditation as well as the rest of the spiritual endeavors require a great deal of patience. That also (I see) seems appropriate for me but-- He said in general that Westerners are very impatient people and they expect instant results. And he says that's just not the way it is. Well in fact while I'm on this topic I'll pull together some things he said the last-- the last day as well. And that is that very often, when we're closest to some sort of breakthrough or insight or goal of some sort or other is when we kind of lose heart right at that critical hour. And, he says we all have a lot more inner resources than we give ourselves credit for.

S: What does it mean no devotion?

VM: I think you know, don't you? I mean--

S: Well I (don't know).

VM (simultaneously): Well look, let me just say from my-- For me sometimes meditation is I sit down and there's just like a tremendous amount of garbage spinning around, and thoughts, feelings and so on, and I just have to-- I feel like I've got to grab this bull by the horns and it's a lot of will and it's just "Oooohhhh" like that. And there's no room or-- with that attitude, you know, there's-- like you kind of forget what you're really doing, you know? I don't know what I'm doing but I know it's not just wrestling a bull, you know? (some laughter) And, I guess everybody has to do that-- You know, he didn't give me a prescription, say do this and do that, right?

EM (simultaneously): Well, when he was talking about that though he said-- he said like everything in Nature gives homage to the-- to the Sun which is the-- he says which is the closest physical manifestation of World-Mind. And he said like at dawn all the birds sing and flowers open and everything pays homage. And that, you know, we also have to-- he said-- How did he say? He said, "One must develop a devotional attitude toward the World-Mind because…" and it just faded out and--

AD: He gave you an example.

EM (simultaneously): And just sat there.

VM: That's right, he just did it.

EM: And beside the chaos around it he was like [VM simultaneously: Oh boy.] special island of peacefulness amid chaos.

VM (simultaneously): That's right, the-- that's very interesting, the TV was going on, and this lady is speaking French, rapid French in the background, real something maybe-- And there is PB, and he really was-- again, you know, I mean this is interpretation and all that sort of thing on my part but it still seemed pretty clear that the world could literally be coming to an end and [S: He wouldn't care.] he just still knew where his center was anyway.

S: Yeah.

PB ON DRUGS; VALID BUT NOT REAL; LEARY AND ALPERT

EM (faint): Talk about the drug (things) a lot.

VM (simultaneously): Oh yeah, he was very interested in drugs, and I guess maybe that was a reflection of who he was talking to too. (bit of laughter) But, some of this I think is of general interest. He asked me sort of what kind of drug experiences I've had and what sort of drugs I've been involved with and I told him that I, you know, had a fair amount of experience with psychedelic drugs and he asked me if I thought I've had mystical experiences with drugs. So I told him, well, it's always mystified me because if I read in the books about mysticism these classical sorts of descriptions of what the symptoms are, what the emotional experiences are, what the perception and so on of this state is, it seems to coincide exactly with maybe three or four experiences that I had. And, then he asked me if I've had any flashbacks or nightmares or reoccurrences of what seemed like a real experience and I told him no, I was very fortunate in that respect. All I had left was desire to hallucinate but no-- no bad experiences. And then I said, but I don't understand what the validity of that experience was, I mean, was it just a complete fake or hallucination or what.

And he said, well, it wasn't, it was a valid experience. On the other hand, it wasn't the real thing either. It was more like going to a movie and seeing a movie and accepting the movie for reality. Or another kind of analogy that he used was that it was like a mirror reflection; mistaking the mirror in some sense or the reflection in the mirror for the real thing. And he spoke about how the Mexicans, Mexican priests, and the Egyptians and the Greeks and the Indians all knew about drugs and knew how to use them and in some cases they did. But they knew their limitations and they knew the dangers involved in drugs.

EM: And he said they were a real last resort for breaking down barriers.

VM (simultaneously): Right. For real [EM simultaneously: Real last resort.] hardcore materialists I guess. And he also said how (laughter) the drugs-- the drugs that we're using, things like LSD and so on, are synthetic drugs and are more potent than-- than the-- than organic drugs, which I think you can attest to. But the thing that struck me too was, he was shaking his finger at me and was-- (laughter) He's saying, once you found meditation there's no excuse for taking drugs.

So, I mean, he's recognized that, I sensed or I believe that, you know, some-- some benefit can be derived from drugs but, certainly for people like us I guess there's no excuse for taking that recourse. Also he said things like-- PB very very rarely, only in two cases, would ever say anything negative about various spiritual groups. You know, he would sort of chat about this guy and that guy and so on. And as far out as some of these people might seem to us, PB always could see that for some people at some time or in some circumstances these people were doing some good.

But about Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert [later known as Ram Dass] he thought that they had reaped much more havoc and had accrued much more in the way of bad karma-- karma for themselves as well as for others through their advo-- advocating drug use and so on, indiscriminate sort of drug use.

S: Does he mean Alpert in his new incarnation of Baba Ram Dass or?

VM: Well he asked me what I thought about Alpert and I'd seen him a couple of times, once in California and once in-- once in a monastery in Elmira. And I knew some people that Alpert was staying with in California quite well. And, I was rather embarrassed by this question because I had sort of inside kind of information on what Alpert was doing and so on because he was with these people and I-- I'm certain these people weren't kidding me about this sort of thing. Anyway, without slander [couple words inaudible] large group, I told him I didn't think that-- I somehow doubted his sincerity or something, I couldn't-- You know, I felt-- as I say I felt really embarrassed saying this, you know, 'cause-- It's very difficult judging somebody else, you know, very often-- in my case anyway I do it prematurely, harshly and so on so I was reluctant but I said well I-- I just don't have a good feeling about the man, I-- I don't really know what Mark had said.

And he said well, he doesn't think that Alpert has really straightened-- or Baba Ram Dass has really got himself straightened out as regards his drug thing. For example, one of the last times, or the last time I saw him was with Andrew and Tom and Elaine and I went down to the monastery (without) having his people-- I don't know, when was that, like in last summer maybe?

TM: Last August.

EM (simultaneously): Last fall.

VM: Last August? Even there, you know, and this is fairly recent and he's been a long time away from the real big drug scene and so on, he was still grinding an axe of-- Satchidananda [Satchidananda Saraswati, C. K. Ramaswamy Gounder] made some remark about people who illusory-- illusorily think they're going to really make some progress or find God by taking sugar cubes and-- And then Baba Ram Dass felt compelled somehow to defend the use of drugs and so on.

Anyway, PB agreed that he didn't really think that Baba Ram Dass had completely straightened himself out was the word he used. And, felt the reason he went to India was to avoid legal complications and to save himself. Now I couldn't understand what he mean, like save himself from the law or save himself from the law of karma or what. But-- Anyway.

I guess that's about it for the drug thing. But that was one-- he was really emphatic there. Now maybe that's me or my generation or what but--

AD: No, he was emphatic.

VM: No I know he was emphatic, he shook his finger, he did-- you know, he looked-- looked right at me and I sort of shriveled.

EM: He was emphatic about two things: one was disciplining David and one was drugs, and that was it.

AD: He went through it.

PARENTING ADVICE; NATURE'S INSTRUMENT OF LOVE; PB'S DIRECTNESS

EM: But-- well right after that, I think I'll say this because he was talking to me about-- well he was talking to me a lot about bringing up David and sort of my part in motherhood and how it was important to balance out my duties as a parent and my duties to myself. And how it was important to be involved with the child but remain detached from the child and those kind of things, they-- they will [one word inaudible] (with you) constantly.

But anyway he said this one phrase this first night which has really stuck with me very strongly but he said, "Nature uses us as an instrument of love for the child." And-- so my point maybe-- I don't know, from my point of view that was really a beautiful way to express the whole experience of being a parent, especially the negative aspects of it, but--

VM: Well let's see, we were at my sister's. Well-- It's strange, you know, you-- So we're sitting there, it's about 11 o'clock and-- PB's extremely mannerly, I mean he-- he's very considerate, very practical. On the other hand, he doesn't kid around with silly conventions either. Like, he (decided) it was time to go to bed, so conversation kind of lulled and he just jumped right up and says, "It's time to go now." (laughter) That was it. So anyway--

LONG MEDITATIONS

EM: He said also that to-- that medi-- he felt that the long meditations [VM: Oh yeah.] that we talked about-- we talked about Tony, what kind of work, how Tony's work was divided up and stuff and-- and I said that I-- I thought maybe the long meditations were hard for Tony. And he said that he-- he felt that long meditation was alright, that it could be very self-healing, that-- that there was no problem with long meditation. He didn't ever mention anything negative about the long meditations at all.

VM: I'm going to get more coffee, Elaine.

EM: Oh, ok. Oh boy. (laughter) You know what I mean?

VM: Elaine said she wasn't going to come tonight if I didn't let her talk. (laughter)

EM: I didn't say that. (more laughter)

VM: No, but anyway [few words inaudible]

S (simultaneously): Right, right.

DAY AT PB'S APARTMENT; DAVID'S BEHAVIOR; PB'S TOYS

EM: He has to get his point in before he leaves. Well the next day we were supposed to go to PB's-- to PB's place at 11:30. And, I had offered to cook so he said to buy some stuff. So we ran all around trying to figure out what to buy. And, I-- I can kind of figure out from talk-- we talked about food(s) the night before and just trying to figure out what to buy so I bought stuff that seemed very safe and-- But then we-- we got at the wrong bus stop and everything got messed up so we were late and Vic was really mad at me, he was like--

S (faint): PB don't mention [couple words inaudible] (laughter)

S: [few words inaudible]

VM (simultaneously): (Some thing), he didn't understand English so I could say anything in the street.

EM: Yeah, I mean like [few words inaudible] of feelings, I was dying, yelling at me.

VM: Yeah in retrospect you could see, I mean even now certainly we're not back to normal but you're really under a lot of stress there and boy it came out and sometimes through a negative form for me. So--

EM: So, then we went to PB's and we were supposed to cook lunch and stuff and we got to talk for a little between cooking lunch and David, David just screamed. Not cried but like yelled for attention. (We/He) would always be quiet and he'd yell so loud you couldn't talk at all. So the only time we could talk was "David!" So we were always playing with David. He still says PB-- or he says, "Brunton's got a lot of toys," that's what he's-- that's what he remembers. 'Cause PB kept bringing out stuff for him and (really--)

VM: Well it's very strange, like did you [EM simultaneously: All these--] see that little box [couple words inaudible]

EM: Yeah, yeah.

VM (simultaneously): PB-- PB says-- well, we brought a lot of toys 'cause we were-- fancy-- brought him a fancy puzzle and all this and we hoped that he would entertain himself so-- And we had feared that he would be a problem but our expectations were far exceeded. (laughter)

So PB said, "Oh, I've got some toys." You know, what do you think PB would be doing with toys but-- (laughter) He goes in-- he goes in his closet which-- By the way, PB has-- his place is neat. Boy, he's got so much stuff around his apartment. I'm sure you people who visited know, it's just stacked all up, you know, with books everywhere and manuscripts and in the kitchen, a big corner of the kitchen's all piled up with boxes full of stuff and it's just a nice [EM simultaneously: Big cloth (one word inaudible)] inlaid blanket or something, you know, one of those things.

So anyway, he goes in his closet and he pulls out this box which has Dr. Paul Brunton written on it and so on, he pulls out these little blocks that you stick together.

EM: But the little blocks were only [VM simultaneously: One (with a) man.] into a shape of a little man.

S: Oh God. (bit of laughter)

S: [couple words inaudible]

VM: So David really liked that. In fact he liked that much better than anything we-- we brought for him. And from that, plus other things, PB had a box full of doodads and switches and coins. He-- Tony perhaps-- He just says, "Well, you got a lot of toys for me." (laughter)

HATHA YOGA; KUNDALINI; BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS

VM, cont.: Well one of the things he talked about that-- it was before lunch that day was Hatha Yoga. I don't know how-- it's very hard for me to remember how these different subjects got started or how one passed into another. But, this-- he praised Hatha Yoga quite a bit, he also told-- It's amazing, PB knows so many facts about all kinds of things. Like he would know about this gardener in town, how many years he worked on the gardens and [couple words inaudible] with plants and all kinds of things that-- He was telling me a story about how the Russians had thought that Hatha Yoga might be of some benefit to their society so they sent a special delegation through India to various ashrams where-- doing Hatha Yoga and they came back with a negative report. "But the Hatha yogins are very (primitive) fellows and it wouldn't be suitable for the Russian people."

S: More interested in (the Gods).

VM: Yeah (the Gods) were-- (laughter)

S (faint): Yeah, I know [couple words inaudible]

VM: Anyway, he did say that Hatha Yoga was very good for the people especially if they were sick or had something wrong with them. Of course it has to be done with care and that one should never force various positions and should be done slowly and without any pain. And, PB always seemed to be acutely aware of individual differences and he would say-- I tried to pin him down, I said, "Will you recommend Hatha Yoga?" He said, "Well, for some people, some asanas are good," you know.

EM: At some time.

VM (simultaneously): He's-- well he's not going to give (student laughs) blanket sort of-- blanket endorsement, you know. I guess you have to be sensitive and feel your way around. He also made the interesting comment that Hatha Yoga can temporarily open the kundalini. So--

RG: Say that again?

VM: Yeah.

RG: (Temporarily?)

VM: Temporarily open the kundalini, kundalini. And, he also recommended this one-- these two books on Hatha Yoga which some of you people may know. Is it Swami Kuvalayananda?

S (faint): Why don't you spell it?

VM: K--

S (faint): [couple words inaudible]

VM: K-u-v-a-l-a-y-a-n-d-a [sic; K-u-v-a-l-a-y-a-n-a-n-d-a]. There's a book on pranayama and one on asanas. I think he told me that was the book. The guy's--

EM: He's apparently a medical-- [VM simultaneously: He has an MD.] has-- he has an MD and also does Hatha Yoga.

S: Can you spell the name again?

EM (simultaneously): And PB was very interested in interdisciplinary medical-- I mean he talked quite a bit at this time about how important it was and how he felt it was coming that doctors would use herbal medicine and--

VM: Acupuncture, all that stuff.

EM: --and acupuncture and Hatha Yoga as well as-- as well as Western medicine too.

VM: Can you spell it, Elaine?

EM: Well [couple words inaudible]

S: (K-i--)

EM: K-u-v-a-l-a-y-a-n-a-n-d-a.

S: What were the two books [couple words inaudible]

VM: Pranayama and Asanas. Two of them.

S: By the same guy.

EM: Yeah.

VM: Yeah.

[short pause]

LS: And he published (in these times)?

VM: I don't know Len, I mean-- I'm pretty sure they're written in English though.

MAKING PB'S BED

EM: (That was too--) you made his bed and-- what's going on?

VM: Oh yeah. I-- you know, it's-- I just wanted to do something for PB just because, well, you just feel that, you know. But he didn't want us to work. I think there's a lot of things going on. First of all he's very mannerly, and maybe more important than that is he doesn't want to encourage any kind of bhakti attitude towards PB, towards (him). And-- so I think-- at least I interpret anyway that his reluctance to let me do chores around the place. But still I made his bed.

And, he has a very strange bed, he has one of these Swiss beds which raise up at the foot and at the head. He sleeps, especially in the wintertime, with his feet about 18 inches or 20 inches or so above the-- you know, the level of the rest of his body for his circulation. And, he also had like-- I counted them, there were six pillows in his bed. (laughter)

S: He really-- he had six?

VM: Yeah, almost like a hammock. He says he works a lot in bed. And-- (laughter) and I told this to Richard Platek, he says, "Why not?" (laughter) And that the place just so, you know, I mean-- oh I-- I--

EM: It took him longer to tell Vic how to make the bed [S simultaneously: Than it took him to make it.] than taking it to make the bed by far.

VM: I was having-- I said, "Well can I make your bed?" and then when I saw it he had just so, he wanted his bed just so, you know. (laughter) I kind of clenched up, I said wow, I hope I can do it, you know, he wants me (laughter) put all my concentration in. (laughter)

S (amidst laughter): I think Richard (would).

VM: Because he had these pillows, all six of them, placed just the way he wanted them [couple words inaudible] telling us (they had to come up at) different heights and so on. He also made a remark, he says, "Well I have this one come all the way up here because I pull it over my head when I'm working." (laughter)

PB'S SIESTA; MEETING IN THE PARK; MONTREUX LANDSCAPE

VM, cont.: So-- we ate-- we ate lunch and then shortly after lunch we le-- PB left for a siesta. He takes a little rest I guess you'd call it, rest his body or something, you know, in the middle of the day. He says it prolongs life. It's also the custom there in Montreux to take off a couple of hours for lunch.

Let's see, then we saw him later that afternoon in the park, (we/he) took a stop-- Apparently he has a few standard places he likes to go just about every day [few words inaudible] for tea, and he likes to walk around the lake, it was really--

EM (simultaneously, faint): Oh yeah [few words inaudible]

VM: It's really quite a lovely sight. Montreux is on the edge of a mountain that comes down very steeply and into the lake which is a very nice lake and there are big mountains on the other side of the lake, so it all s-- the place is in a very beautiful setting. And--

MISPRINTS IN PB'S BOOKS; CHRIST FROM ANOTHER PLANE; BEINGS ON OTHER PLANETS

EM: He talked about his books and mistakes in them.

VM: Oh yeah. I had some questions about his books and one of the things that he stated very emphatically, he says you have to be very careful because a lot of the paperback editions have misprints and typographical errors and things like that. He says they were very clumsy when they did these paperbacks. I guess that's the Weiser books. You know how the bindings come apart so--

Then we got-- well, I think in The Inner Reality it says that Christ is a being from another planet and that always mystified me and I asked him about that. He says, "Not another planet, that's a misprint, it's another plane," which really didn't clear it up too much but in some ways (maybe/may be) more acceptable.

S (faint): Another plane.

VM: Plane. So, then this-- I started asking him about beings on other planets, you know I have an interest in astronomy and I-- Like I wanted to know, are these beings actually sort of associated with the physical planet, or should we think of them as some sort of subtle body which is attached to say Venus (and) beings on Venus.

Well that is very mysterious, so he said, well, depending on the planet, some planets are more highly evolved than we are, and that they don't have a physical embodiment like we do so if we went there, you know, you wouldn't see somebody running around like-- somewhat like yourself. Well, the interesting thing for me (that's) quite mystifying also was that he thought that the United States program to land-- or any country's program to land manned vehicles on these planets would-- would not be successful because these beings would protect their own territory. They didn't want to be invaded by us or have us visit them. He thought it would be much more likely if they would visit us.

In fact he talked about Hindu myths where beings from other planets came early in the history of man and helped him along spiritually and then after we had developed as a race sufficiently then they left our atmosphere. Well, PB seemed very happy to talk about this but somehow I just didn't think it really applied to me very much and I said well-- I was all mystified by what he was saying and I said, "Well, fortunately, it doesn't seem to bear too much on my problem," and he said, "No, it doesn't." We left that. I guess we walked along the lake and he-- He comments about all kinds of things. You know, if you stop talking and just get silent, it seems like very shortly he picks up the conversation and asks you a question, something like that.

S (faint): Yeah.

EM: [few words inaudible] and just kept playing with him too. He was-- the boys were sitting in the park, we were trying to-- we took David to the swings and learning to play with the kids and hoping it would knock some [couple words inaudible] It didn't work. And we brought--

TUNISIAN TEA ROOM; ARAB CIVILIZATION DURING DARK AGES; REGRET ARABS DIDN'T CONQUER ALL OF EUROPE

VM: He took us to this lovely Tunisian tea room which I guess it takes a lot of--

EM: He asked about [couple words inaudible] was vegetarian.

VM: Right. It's a beautiful Arabic place. Well, three Tunisian craftsmen came over to this man who decided to build it and they built it with great authenticity and attention to detail and so on. And PB was speaking about the Arab culture and what was the European Dark Ages and said it was extremely high-- or a highly developed civilization with a very advanced metaphysics, logic. Sufis were having their heyday then and, oh, the very best astrology and all this sort of thing. And he said that he had wished that they had overrun all of Europe instead of being stopped at-- I guess they had stopped at the Pyrenees or some place. Which I thought was kind of interesting. And then he asked--

LS (simultaneously): That's not the way our history books tell it, you know? They stopped the infidels in France and turned them back.

VM: Right. Correct.

S: Uh-hm.

S (very faint): That's right.

QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CENTER; AD FAVORS ADVAITA; SAMKHYA-ASTROLOGY WORK; PB ASKS ABOUT PUBLICATION; TONY'S TEACHING METHODS

VM: Then-- then he asked some questions about-- about the Center and stuff and-- He said to me what-- what system of thought or philosophy, I don't remember exactly the word he used, did he-- did Tony favor the most. So I said to him, well as far as my understanding goes, Tony extols the Advaita Vedanta as being a sort of pinnacle of Eastern thought, but doesn't feel that many of us are sufficiently prepared to really appreciate it, to-- to understand it in any-- any depth. So although he keeps it in the background [couple words inaudible] occasionally he spends more time doing kind of a comparative analysis using various systems to elucidate points.

Then I spoke about Samkhya a little, not that I lectured on it, you know, just some-- (laughter) "Well you see in Samkhya--" (laughter) I told him how he studied Samkhya, not at present we weren't actively involved in studying it but I explained a little bit how Tony used it in conjunction with-- with astrology and a good number of his students were active in helping elucidate some of his ideas and how Tony had really raised astrology to a level that we certainly couldn't come anywhere near in any of the books that are at least currently available.

And, then he said, "Well is he publishing any of this, is he writing any of it up?"

S: PB.

VM: PB I mean said, is Tony writing any of this up. And I said well, not at present, although I mentioned that-- that Len had made up some-- you know, had written up some things. But, as I understand it, and I hope this is correct Len, you didn't really feel completely satisfied with the understanding of things to push the writing that far. And, I said, as I understand Tony's feeling or position on this, he's really not completely satisfied that everything is crystallized and formed (quite) sufficiently to-- to really write it up. And I mentioned how Tony was very against people who'd get one sort of intuition and then bombard the market with sort of fixed-- you know, half-baked ideas and unresolved details and so on, and PB said, "Oh yes. Tony was no doubt exposed to a lot of that at Weiser's, I could see why he is against falling into that trap."

I did mention-- I mentioned to him how the tapes were-- class was taped. And he thought that was a good idea, especially for people who couldn't make the tape-- or make the class. [S: I'll be back.] And-- oh we spoke, you know, about how Tony would very often use two or three systems to elucidate one point. I said how very often his books they're written so apparently clearly that one gets the illusory idea that you really understand what's going on. But when sometimes Tony come in from left field using maybe slightly different terminology or slightly different system to elucidate the same point, you realize how flimsy your understanding is, and he thought that was good.

And, I don't know (whether) he-- he asked or I told him that very often in order to understand the point we just have to spend a whole evening on maybe one sentence or one paragraph and he thought that was good, there was no sense of just running on and not really understanding something in depth. And-- well you should talk a little more perhaps.

[short pause]

ONE IDEA FROM DIFFICULT CLASS SUFFICIENT; RUNNING FOR THE BUS; PB'S STAMINA

EM: Well, after we left we went, you know--

VM: How about you talk about when you get one idea and all that sort of thing.

EM (simultaneously): Oh yeah, I talked to him about how sometimes I wasn't-- I wasn't able to really concentrate on the-- on the whole class, it was-- you know, like it really varied how much I would get from different classes. And some classes were just too-- too hard for me, like the ideas were just too difficult, I couldn't understand them.

He said that he felt that just for that one idea from a class, that that was enough. I mean, (it was honestly) try to get as much as you can but even if you just got one idea maybe a year from now or tomorrow or sometime that idea might become very important. And-- so that, you know, he felt that it was good to try. And that [couple/three words inaudible] it was valuable.

And that-- well after that we-- we went to get-- [VM, faint: Give the example.] we went to get a bus and the bus passed us and we had to run for about a block but we didn't want to run because, you know, I mean he's 75 years old so we just kind of walked until-- (some laughter) And he started taking off and it's like when he walks his arms hardly move, he's like very-- his body's very quiet when he walks or just his legs move. And then-- and suddenly off like-- it was like this tremendously efficient little machine [couple words inaudible] just like little pistons [makes piston noises]. (laughter) He ran like about a block and he wasn't even out of breath, but we were really amazed. (laughter) So he jumped on the bus and he sat a few seats in front of us and we were laughing about it. It was very funny to see. (laughter)

And-- and according to-- and David must have thought it was funny too. Anyway he was sitting up there and David comes to us, "Hey Brunton!" (laughter) And PB just turned around and gave him this real kind of wry little smile and we were (just--) (laughter)

EM/S(?): What else you got? What else you got? (Really?) (laughter)

[Audio File 1973 0604a Ends]

[Audio File 1973 0604b Begins]

SUPPER; PSYCHADELIC LIGHTING; PB'S HUMOR

VM: --about this bus incident. We made supper at PB's apartment. And, as we were sitting down for supper, PB got this big orange plastic, kind of reddish-orange plastic lamp that's sort of mushroom-shaped and it has a rather broad base and then comes up and turns over kind of like this and there's a bunch of lights underneath it. And he says-- so he says, "I dine every night with psychedelic lighting." (laughter) He said, "It's my attachment." (laughter) He was very serious about, you know, the roots of-- roots of--

EM (simultaneously): He goes-- he goes, "This is my attachment, (uh-hm)." (laughter)

VM: He pulls this lamp-- he pulls this lamp out on the little table right out in the middle of the kitchen and then turned off the overhead light and this big red glow was (passed around). (laughter) (These have) happened here, (right), you know? But, I guess that's a recent acquisition. So the next night I said to him, "Shall I set up the psychedelic lighting?" He says, "Yes, please." (laughter)

He's a funny man, you know, I-- I guess he figures-- he's obviously-- he must be doing it for my benefit 'cause I don't think he needs to make jokes for himself, that's-- So it's nice. I guess it goes along with what PB says about-- in some of his books, you know, the philosopher shouldn't be a gloomy kind of killjoy sort of personality. Detachment is fine, on the other hand it's ok I guess to crack a joke now and then.

NECESSITY OF DISCIPLINING DAVID; SETTING GOOD EXAMPLE; NIPPING EVIL IN THE BUD

EM: But then I had talked-- you know, we've been struggling with David all day and then we-- then we got a babysitter that night. We couldn't get-- we had a hard time getting babysitters everywhere and in Montreux it was just like that, it was-- it was so easy to get a babysitter, it was just really nice.

VM (faint): Yeah, (we had) a nice time.

EM: And, he talked-- he talked to us again and he said it was probably-- it was-- he said it was Vic's karma to have a child with this kind of energy, he said Vic was probably like this when he was a child, but I think that (he) was very severely disciplined. And, they-- well-- He said that like you had to be really careful to set a good example for a child. Like he was really (noticing). He noticed a lot [couple words inaudible] how David would repeat things. He said David was listening to everything we said all the time. He said you had to be very careful to set a good example when a child is real young, and that discipline was extremely necessary. And in the afternoon he said to us, he said, "You must discipline this child." Like really.

VM: Yeah, (aside) from the drug thing that was more emphatic even.

EM: And-- and he said, "You have to discipline a child but hitting or spanking may not be the best way." And so we said--

S: Crazy [one/two words inaudible]

EM: Yeah he said-- I just [one/two words inaudible] "Well what do you do?" you know, I thought. And he said, "Well, you should try to nip evil in the bud," he said. I don't know exactly what that means.

VM: Well that was in actually a different context.

EM: I guess so. Ok well anyway he said at this time about disciplining, he finally said, "You should [VM simultaneously: I--] always try to encourage positive behavior." So I'm trying to find my own ways of doing that but you have to discourage the negative behavior and just be very patient, like wait for this whole thing to evolve and just to keep on it all the time, so you don't get, (you know--)

VM: In fact he said in-- in (the inspiration) to that that if we didn't discipline him now, life would do it later but it'd be much more painful.

EM: Yeah and he said free-- free schools had proven themselves not to work. This kind of free or bringing up children without discipline just doesn't work he said.

PB'S CONVERSATIONAL STYLE; ANSWERING LETTERS MENTALLY; DEATH AND KARMA; AFTER-DEATH HELPERS; LIMITED FREE WILL; DETACHMENT AND PEACE

VM: This is the thing too, you know, that like, PB wouldn't-- see he wouldn't start a lot of conversations but he's much-- much more likely to start a conversation about-- about the food or tea or about the countryside or the political situation. Well actually, I didn't-- we didn't talk about politics but he would mention some current affairs kind of things. He just didn't talk that much about philosophy and mysticism. And that to me was a bit of a surprise. I expected a man who had spent all his life or a good part of his life writing about these topics and so on would like to talk about that sort of thing but didn't appear to be that way at all.

EM: He also said that night that he answered-- he talked about some letters and stuff and he said, "I answer all letters mentally." He said, "It would be impossible to answer them physically but I answer every letter mentally." Talk more about the death thing?

VM: Well, I guess so.

EM (simultaneously): (Knowing the great evil) had (everything) to do--

VM: Yeah this is a-- I don't know. Lately and over the past year, two years or so, occasionally I get these very kind of morbid thoughts of dying. It's not so much the pain of dying that seems to bother me, it's the-- the idea that I might go through life and not realize some measure of truth. And I expressed that to PB and he said, yeah. It's largely your karma which decides whether or not you will really penetrate the veil or realize truth in some measure. And that the best you could do was just to work-- work the best you could.

And he said as far as dying goes, he said, there are beings on the other side who act like midwives and help you into the-- to that realm. And that-- well I asked him questions about-- we'd spent some time in an Italian graveyard just going around. [S: Oh, oh.] We had our own car for a short while so we happened on this very elaborate graveyard. The Italians are noted for that sort of thing and have these huge big mausoleums or big buildings with flowers and pictures in them and a lot of little lights here and there, these internal lights. And, I thought too of the Catholic thing of All Souls' Day and how they ask you to-- to at least once a year and hopefully more often pray for those people who have died. And I-- (that) just doesn't make any sense to me, like how I could help somebody who had died, I just didn't understand that. So I asked him about that, was that complete superstition or was there some truth in that. And he said it was only a very strong-- strong-willed sort of person who could effectively help anybody on the other side. It was mostly a question of a person's karma and his receptivity to the help that he got when he died.

S: Can you say that again, the last (part)?

VM: As far as the after-death state go, it was really largely the karma that you've accrued during your life that determined what went on after you died and also your receptivity to-- to the help that you got on the other side. And that somebody like you and me probably wouldn't be very effective in helping somebody but perhaps a more powerful mind could-- could be of some help. And, let's see, he said something about [one word inaudible]

EM (simultaneously): He said there was some free will. He said there was limited volition or free will after you die the same way there is when you're alive. I have no idea what that means.

VM: Well--

S (faint): Limited volition.

EM (simultaneously): I didn't get it, really, you know.

VM: He spoke a little bit more about that, you know. We do have some free will but obviously our choices and sorts of volitions that we can make are limited a great deal by circumstances and the karma that we find ourselves with. And-- Let's see, there's some other things.

EM: Well that-- well, you know, that [couple words inaudible] (a while) he was talking about. Like we'd talk about all these things and how we (doing) this and worry (about) dying and this and that. [VM simultaneously: No attachment.] Then he said-- the last thing he says well-- he says, "Well don't worry about it." And he says, "We have to be--" he says, "This is all maya. You have to be detached even through the quest." And-- and he sa-- and then he said like, "Take your peace now." He said-- and then he said, "Let nothing rob you of your peace." And then he said, "I have to go to bed." And (we/he) went. But that was a--

[12 second pause]

PB PLAYS WITH DAVID; "I LOVE YOU, PB!"

EM, cont.: So the next day we went there again and about the same time that [couple words inaudible] noise. And that day PB really spent a lot of-- (project) a lot of energy that (lunch) period to David. Before he would like-- David would kind of get his attention but he would-- well, he wouldn't pay that much attention to him but he would-- At this time he really, you know, like amused him and put the blocks together with him and playing. Not-- not the way I play with him. I mean he wouldn't try to-- like I notice that like when I play with David I kind of act like I'm his age, you know, [student assents] and act silly and tickle him and talk stupid (and stuff). PB talked just the way he talks, you don't know, but he like would build little things with David (and so--)

[short pause]

S (very faint): Well--

VM (faint): [few words inaudible]

EM: Do you want to-- well after-- that was-- after lunch, I don't know what happened further, I can look but, after lunch David said-- he said "I love you, PB," just-- He says I love you to like me and Vic and his grandmother and-- But it was kind of out of the blue especially since PB really hadn't tried to entertain him. Seems really unusual from my point of view. Then he--

VM (simultaneously): In fact he said it twice.

EM: And then-- and then he said it again, he said-- PB kind of said something else and he said, "You know what, I love you!" And then PB said, "Oh you must love my beard," he seemed to be trying to distract him and then-- then he talked to David about why David doesn't have a beard and stuff like that and then-- and then Dave was pulling on his beard and his moustache. (laughter) And, he just seemed to-- he-- I don't know what he said but anyway he started really kind of talk about other things, "You must love my beard. You don't love me." [couple words inaudible] And then-- then when we left, I said I was going to get a babysitter that night and that was going to be the last time we saw-- we would see him. And before I said I wanted to get a babysitter one afternoon he told me not to. He said get a babysitter (but not in here). So, anyway he asked David to shake hands. Said, "You want to shake it?" sort of. David shook (his) hand. You don't shake hands with him. I mean-- (bit of laughter)

[short pause]

VM: So it was-- so we went back again that night, a lot-- you know. We talked more about sort of personal things. More questions about meditation and so on.

PB'S CHINESE DÉCOR; PICTURES OF SAGES; RAMANA STORY

EM (faint): Do you want to tell them about [couple words inaudible] show us? I mean, he showed us a lot of people, pictures [three words inaudible] but, you know.

VM: Well he showed-- PB has got a very, very strong Chinese influence in his decor and it obviously goes much more with decor. On one wall he has three Chinese Sages--Buddha, Lao Tzu, and Confucius. On another wall he had three scrolls of Buddhism. This is more the Tibetan Buddhas. In his bedroom he had a lovely picture of Wang Yang-ming who looks very stern and rather fierce. So I commented on, you know, he was kind of fierce-looking, reminds me somewhat of Atmananda, that same sort of-- looks like he could bend a steel bar or something over your head if he had to. (laughter) And he just said yes, he was a very just man. Not harsh, but just, and he knew what he had to do and he did it.

He showed us a picture of-- he said, "This is the greatest living Sage in India." So I just said, "Well what's his name?" PB was just silent. He didn't want to give his name out but-- That picture plus a small picture of Ramana is the only picture that-- that he had near his bedside. But he also did speak about some time when he was with Ramana, say he spent about three and a half years at the ashram. Sometimes, in the two hottest months of the year, many of the devotees, himself included, sometimes would leave and go north where the climate is more-- more humane because the heat in the south apparently was so-- so intense that it stops any kind of intellectual activity. He said however one year he was interested in really staying there and not going north. So in order to sort of help him through the heat, he took a little trip to Madras, which in those days was twelve hours, and when he got there, he sat underneath the fan and ate ice cream for three days. (laughter) And then he went back to staying with Ramana. (laughter)

ELAINE'S PAST INCARNATION IN CHINA; ANTHROPOLOGIST'S VISIT TO RAMANA; SPIRITUAL RIPENESS; VIC'S INITIAL RESISTANCE

EM: The same afternoon he-- like he talked with me about some of my-- like as a-- at Cornell I was a Chinese language student [couple words inaudible] And he asked me about that stuff and he said, "Well don't you-- don't you think you probably had a recent incarnation in China?" And I said, "Well, I don't know, I thought it." But I don't-- I don't really know about-- I mean I don't know how to test my fantasy against what really happened, and he said, well, if you go to a place, then you'd be much more likely to know if you had an incarnation.

VM: He also spoke too about-- I think that was in the afternoon about-- Ramana was-- there was an anthropologist who spent a few days at the ashram I guess extensively doing anthropology and-- After a few days he said, "Well, I just have to leave now because I just don't see it, you know, he's a very lovely man, he sits on the couch there and they put questions to him and so on but I just don't understand what-- what it's all about." And PB made the point that it's only a very ripe soul who was going to have a great spiritual experience. See like, one of my I guess egotistical sort of desires was I really wanted fireworks to go off. I wanted some kind of great conversion and so on and well I just-- I didn't have it, I just-- you know, I'm not that ripe soul that he's referring to. And-- well there was a dose of comeuppance in a way although I suppose he didn't say was very presumptuous but-- That's one of the things that becomes very evident, we're beginners, you know, and then you're around somebody like PB.

In fact, such a beginner that you don't even know exactly what's going on there, you know. In fact the first day or day and a half or so, I really felt a lot of resistance to the man, I expected some in a sense but I got so tight, tense and kind of a certain coldness and distance. It really came over me and it's very discouraging when this sort of thing happens, you know. But, things did-- did improve in that respect.

VM(?) (very faint): [few words inaudible]

IMPORTANCE OF RELIGIOUS EDUCATION FOR CHILDREN; MAHABHARATA AND LIFE OF CHRIST

EM: Well, I do (think the) general thing because I don't know, I just-- people [one/two words inaudible] probably (because) I was. And the last-- really last topic that he-- and he brought this up, you know, this time. The last topic we talked about again was upbringing of children. And he said-- and he said that it was really important to give a child a religious education and it was best if this was handled at home because it would be done without superstitions and he talked about, you know, reading various stories and-- What's the name of the book, that one?

VM: Mahabharata?

S (faint): Mahabharata.

EM: Mahabha-- [VM simultaneously: No.] Mahabharata.

S: Right.

EM: Mahabharata. And stories about Christ, you know, etc. Anyway, he felt it was really important to give a child some kind of a religious level that they can understand.

SAGE TEA; LOCAL CHOCOLATE

VM: Well also that last night, you know, the funny thing was PB had-- has a big cupboard full of tea. And after supper he doesn't like any real tea as he calls them, the kind with stimulants in it. So he says, "Would you like an herbal tea?" And I said, "Yes." And he says, "Well what kind?" I said, "Oh, you know," Pisces, "Oh, whatever you want." And he says, "No, no, you decide."

EM: Right.

VM: And, so he says, well we have this kind of tea and we have sage tea. He says, "Although you have to develop a taste for it." He says, "On the other hand it makes you a Sage." (laughter) And then he says-- he says, "There must be some reason why they call it sage tea." (laughter)

S: Gotta drink some more tea.

VM: Maybe we'll all go out and buy some sage tea.

S: Oh God.

S (faint): I've drank your tea.

VM: He also tried to get me to eat chocolate. See this is such a strange thing, like-- He's-- he told me, well he says, "You know, there's a lovely man and his wife who--" Gives me this whole story about a man who used to make candy, especially excellent chocolate in Montreux and now the big firms have thrown him out of business. PB says, "I got some of the last chocolate," pulled out a scarf and--

S: (And offer it.) (laughter)

S: It was spoiled.

S: (He ate one.) (bit of laughter)

VM: And then he shows me this jar of little pieces of chocolate all broken up nice and so on, I said, some (old) [one word inaudible] came out of it or something, I said, "Oh, no thanks." (laughter) I was thinking I should get a piece and bring it home, we all split it up. (laughter)

LS: So you didn't get to taste it?

VM: No I didn't.

LS: Oh, terrible.

S: Terrible.

VM: I just--

EM: We were offered it again.

AD (faint): It was supposed to be our duty. (bit of laughter)

S: Right.

S: Junk food.

TEA ROOM ENCOUNTER; RESISTANCE MELTS; INTENSE DEVOTION

EM: The last thing we went back-- or, we saw-- we weren't supposed to see him after that but we saw him again the next day sort of by mistake. We went to his tea room where he had taken us and he was sitting there, you know, very quiet and peaceful and-- and (the place) is a fantastic place. And then--

VM: Sort of too peaceful to be real, I thought there was something going on. I got a little scared [one word inaudible]

AD: That wasn't (backing out).

VM: No it wasn't. His aura must have stretched all the way across that tea room. Because I got relaxed and just sat there and wow, all of a sudden, you know, I was caught off guard I guess. And I got very quiet and sort of abstracted and just went right there inside myself. Kind of freaked a little bit because this is not my usual state. (bit of laughter) And, then after sitting there for a few minutes David had to go to the bathroom so Elaine says, "You take him." Well I said, you know, ok, and we went upstairs and Dave went to the bathroom. We were looking around. It's a beautiful place, incredibly beautiful, and my eye was up in the ceiling somewhere and David took off. So I'm out there looking around for him and I find him over to the far side of the cafe, you know, this tea house, and he's over walking towards PB who's talking to this other older couple. And so I said, "Come on, David, come on over here." Because, you know, it was quite obvious PB has work to do and you can't go and talk on PB and sit down. (laughter)

But David didn't want to-- didn't want to obey my call so he just kept going right after PB and waddled over there and said hello to PB and he nodded hello and I finally got David away. But when I was caught off guard there, the feelings really rushed out. That's that kind of resistance that-- I guess my resistance was sort of caught off guard there. I didn't want to leave either and I think David was where it was at but-- But of course we did leave and then Elaine also. Well you should say--

EM: I felt very badly just for--

VM: Because you don't take him to the bathroom. (laughter)

EM: No. I felt badly that I-- well I wanted to go and see him very-- just to go look at him. Like I felt at that time that that day I didn't want to talk to him again, like I was-- it was just too exhausting to him. For whatever reason I just felt that I couldn't see him again that day and I really just-- I just didn't have the energy left. But I wanted to-- I really would have liked to have been in a room this side and be way in the back and having coffee with somebody else or something so that I could just observe him but not have to talk to him or anything. So anyways then I felt badly 'cause I couldn't go in and I didn't feel that I probably would be able to see him and just then he walked out. And, just like Vic, I mean at that moment I felt much more-- I felt this really strong feelings of devotion and sadness 'cause I'd never see him again and just really felt some of the more powerful emotions I've ever felt of a devotional nature and-- I guess it was because-- I mean I had no [one word inaudible] to feel that when I [one word inaudible] I mean it would come-- It was, you know, so-- it would come slightly or very subtly but not in a powerful kind of way. And, you know, he was walking away and I was very thankful for that glance-- that glance because it's just so-- I wasn't able to (give you a chance).

GURU MOUNTAIN AND THE KRISHNAMURTIS

VM: He also talked about this Guru Mountain. There's a little (bit) right there. He's spoken to a lot of people about that and I think some of the things he said about Krishnamurti were not just random thoughts about Krishnamurti. But there's this big mountain which PB also was on too, at the bottom of the mountain. Actually slightly below PB there's a big casino and he joked about that too. (laughter)

He spoke about Krishnamurti-1, who is the Krishnamurti that Theosophists and so on were very involved with and thought he was going to be the world savior and so on. And this Krishnamurti was at the top and he lived in this town called Gstaad and had summer-- I wouldn't exactly call it summer classes or seminars maybe, be outside and so on.

And then there's another Krishnamurti who had the same name but was in fact very much like him in terms of his ideas, especially when the Krishnamurti-1 was younger and he was very radical and spoke out very strongly against meditations and gurus and so on. And then there was a third fellow down below, some Bulgarian spiritist who it appears that-- PB made the comment that as they descended down the mote-- down the mountain the doctrine got--

EM: We didn't know what that meant in terms of PB being down by the casino. (EM laughs)

VM: Yeah, that was scary. What are you doing at the bottom? (laughter) We didn't ask him of course but he said that as they came down the mountain the doctrine seemed to become less philosophical [one word inaudible] at least the Center but perhaps not the world.

And, he's-- he had very high respect for Krishnamurti, he said especially because although the Theosophists had touted him as a world savior, he at this big conference said that "I'm not the world savior," and of course that-- that was a very courageous thing to do in a sense because that would've been obviously a very-- an inflated place to be.

And, he mentioned how Krishnamurti was very against the idea of gurus because he felt that so many people merely model themselves after the guru and became sort of fake imitations instead of being themselves in a true sense and I guess that-- you know, that wasn't just a random thought, obviously applied to-- to me and to us.

REVOLUTION; HELPING OTHERS; SELF-KNOWLEDGE FIRST

VM: And-- Oh he spoke about politics and how he felt that revolution of a violent nature and a wide-ranging revolution is always det-- detrimental and disastrous and how-- just like in your personal life you can't expect great revolutions, you have to work on one problem at a time and work as intelligently as you can at it.

And-- (then I guess), he also spoke about-- he spoke about helping people, I-- this is the question that I asked him. Because you know, when people would go to Ramana, when-- in fact, I can even remember I think PB asked this question at one time about well what about the world's suffering and so on. Like see, I've never made [one word inaudible] settle completely myself sort of what my obligations are to the rest of the world. Like, you know, it's fine, we come here and we do the best we can to meditate and study and so on but pretty much I don't worry about the guy down the street or the political problems have kind of pretty much faded out on that sort of thing, like a lot of us have. But I still am not completely settled that I'm not shirking my duty in some sense.

I asked him, I said, "What about this businesses of helping people, I mean-- You know, Ramana would always say when somebody would say, well I'd like to help somebody or what about the world's evil and so on, Ramana would always say, 'Well, find out who you are.' Either the question will be answered or dissolve." And PB said, "Well, that's true, Ramana did say that to some people at some time." And again it's just like with PB, I mean he doesn't-- I mean he puts his answers to the person and to the occasion.

But he also mentioned how Ramana would also say in some places that it was appropriate to do the best you could in terms of helping other people. For example-- I guess I used this example, I said, well it's obvious, you know, like if somebody slips on the sidewalk or on ice or something and you go and help him up. That seems to me like genuine helping. On the other hand, so much of what I have considered for myself [couple words inaudible] to be helping has been really acting out my own complexes and-- and there was no altruism involved, it was a, you know, a distortion of altruism, it had nothing to do with that. PB says, "Well, certainly until one is fully realized there's-- there's going to be a mixture of motives, but one's responsibility is to first of all make sure that you know enough about yourself and what's going on to be of some help, and then act with the maximum amount of awareness that you can." And he used the examples of-- "Well don't you think Tony is helping people?" I said, "Well, certainly I know he's helping me and I'm fairly sure others too." And then he used that as an example of the possibility of really helping each other. And there's other things too I guess but I-- I think (we've) [couple words inaudible] enough, especially me so-- We'll be happy to answer your questions if we could.

QUESTIONS ABOUT CENTER; MEDITATIONS; ZEN APPROACH

JL: Did he make any specific statements about the Center?

S (very faint): Yeah.

S: Wow.

VM: Well--

JL: Did you talk about it?

VM: Yes, we did talk about the Center, we talked-- he asked me details about how we ran the meditations, the long ones especially. Tony wanted me to ask him a little bit about-- if he had any ideas on how things should be set up legally and financially. He didn't give specific details about how it should be done, although advice in a general way. In general, John, it seemed that he was either silent or positive. Certainly he gave no-- no warnings or say well that doesn't seem like the best way of doing things or anything like that but-- You know, in general, I'm sure as you know, PB doesn't say "should" or "must" or, I mean, you know-- So, one has to I guess use intuition and so on.

S: [one word inaudible]

JL (simultaneously): (But), did you talk about specific things, I mean specific aspects of [VM: But well--] activities at the Center?

VM: While we were talking about the studies I said very often, or at least sometimes (doing the--) with long meditations we'd use Buddhism in conjunctions-- you know, Zen, Chinese Buddhism, in conjunction with the meditations in order to help us understand what we were trying to do. And, I spoke to him about how Tony occasionally claps these boards. He says, "His what?" (laughter) And, I says to him, "Well you know a lot of us are-- are kind of sleepy or just let go of our concentration and Tony goes around and slaps these boards together, try and get us into it." And he says, "Oh yes, the Zen approach." (laughter) He didn't say, you know-- he certainly didn't say, "Oh the Zen approach, that's terrible," no, not at all, I mean-- As I say, everything he said, certainly every time pretty much that Tony's name was mentioned, he would either-- well there'd usually be a positive sort of comment made. Oh, that was (fantastic). But not-- not really specific things. Like he didn't-- like I say (and) he (even) asked if there was any room to (experiment).

[23 second pause]

ASTROLOGY; TONY'S CONTRIBUTION; PUBLICATION QUESTION

LS: Vic in what context was he talk-- were you talking about-- of writing down the stuff about astrology? Can you expand on that a little?

VM: Yeah. He asked me what schools of thought or philosophies Tony was-- what school Tony was most in favor of. And I told him this business about the Advaita but how very few of us were really in a position to appreciate its depth and so on so he spent more time with things like Buddhism, Samkhya, his works. And he also mentioned that in his books he didn't really put in that much of the Advaita, although it's certainly in there but-- He said how Tony was using-- Tony was doing-- well, and he'd actually stopped and I said but at this time he was-- he stopped doing it although-- I think I'm-- I can't-- I mean let me try again. [short pause] I'm not sure if I said that Tony has stopped doing the classes on--

EM: Yes.

VM: I did? Did I say that Lenny was doing them now or what? We might have.

EM: Well, I don't know, I was very nebulous.

VM: Yeah. I can't remember whether I said you were doing astrology by yourself now or not. Maybe if it comes to me I'll certainly let you know. And I said that Tony had really done some nice things with astrology especially in using Samkhya to elucidate some of the ideas in astrology and raised it to a much higher level than anything you find in books. And he says, "Well it sounds like Tony really has made a contribution there." And I said, "Well, certainly it seems that way to me too." And he said, "Is he writing it down?" Or "Is he writing it up for publication?" And I said, "No, he isn't." Although I've mentioned that you had written up at least some preliminary things on astrology but, as I said before, I didn't think you were completely satisfied with your understanding of it or the way things were coming out to be happy enough to go on and really write something up in detail or a longer-- [EM simultaneously: Publish it.] a long publication.

EM (faint): He said (publish).

VM: Although I did mention you published something in an astrological journal, even though it escaped me at the time and still does now. And then I told him how Tony didn't really feel sufficiently crystallized or clear or things haven't fallen in place enough to really write up a full exposition of-- on astrology, and how he was against people doing these half-baked sort of things. And he said, "Yes, I understand that, Tony was exposed to a lot of that at Weiser's." And I think that was it. [short pause] It seemed like there was the hint of work there.

S: Agreed.

LS: Well I caught the hint in the way you'd said it, I'd wondered if there was-- just wondering if there was anything specific more that he had said.

VM: No. I don't think so Len and again-- Of course my interpretations, my psychology comes in here but I would say that PB seemed to think that-- Well I-- I don't know, I want to really be careful here but, he did ask, "Is it being written up for publication? It sounds like Tony has made a contribution."

[short pause]

PB'S NEW WORK; EVENTUAL PUBLICATION; QUESTIONS ABOUT GROUP'S FUTURE

JL: You said that he mentioned something about his own works. Did he say anything more about them?

VM: Yeah I asked him, I said, "Are you writing for publication?" He says, "Well, very (reluctantly) once a year I'll write something down (in a journal) sort of and [one word inaudible] something like that." I said to him, "Well, are the things you're writing now, are they going to be published?" He says, "Oh yes, they'll be published someday." And that was it. Again really, (you know), Jo-- at least where I was I couldn't push PB, say, "Well when," you know-- (laughter)

JL: No but I mean--

VM: You know, in general on things I would just sort of try and take in what I could and I-- I guess I was shy, I just-- I just didn't feel I could try and get more out of him than he wanted to-- wanted to say. But he didn't say whether they were-- whether they were going to be books or what form they would come in, although he did say he's always writing and they will be published someday. It's also interesting too where he doesn't-- like I had a few questions about his books and stuff and he doesn't-- he says, "Oh I don't remember what's in them." He says, "You probably know them better than I do," which is a real assumption on his part. (laughter)

JL: Did he say anything about prospective work involving this group?

VM: I don't understand your question.

JL: Any tendencies, I mean future-- future work of any kind? Did you ask him anything about those things?

VM: Like what direction the group would be going or something?

JL: [one word inaudible]

VM: No I don't think so.

S (faint): Elaine, can you explain to me what are [few words inaudible] walking that way in his answers.

VM: I almost expected that, you know. I didn't--

S (very faint): Yeah.

EM: When you ask him a question that you want answered he-- I thought I would have been much more comfortable [couple words inaudible] when I (walk) there but anyway. I thought (had it) been so much more comfortable if he'd said "[couple words inaudible] (my answer)." He would just be silent. So I wasn't-- that's my usual response.

VM: You know, the way I phrased it I-- I just always somehow throw in a little plug for the home town, you know, sort of-- (laughter) That was really-- [S simultaneously: Yes.] that was kind of the sentiment behind my statement, I didn't-- PB knows more about what's going on here certainly than I do so-- But I just, you know, throw it in.

MAHARAJ JI; ALAN WATTS; CHAPEL HOUSE; CORNELL LIBRARY

JL: Did he talk at all about the Sages that he had known, I mean the different people? Talk at all about Ramana?

VM (simultaneously): He knows-- he knows so many people man, he knows them (all).

JL: Did he talk at all about--

VM (simultaneously): Everybody-- everybody that-- he didn't know-- one guy was interested and asked his opinion on, you know, this 15-year-old fellow, the [S: Right.] Maharaji [Prem Pal Singh Rawat].

S: Maharaj Ji.

S: Yeah.

VM: Well, you know who I mean, I can't remember his name now.

S: Maharaji.

S (faint): Maharaji.

VM (simultaneously): Guru-- Guru Maharaji. He said, "Oh, I knew nothing about him."

EM: His only comment was it's peculiar to have a name which has no surname in it, which has no personal name in it. That was his comment.

VM: Yes.

EM: And he said, you know, Mahesh Yogi, Mahesh is his personal name, or Ramana Maha-- you know, there'll be a-- an honorary with a personal name and [three words inaudible] and that was his only comment about it.

S: Does he know [one/two words inaudible]

EM: He doesn't know anything about him. Or else he didn't want to comment.

VM: We talked about [one word inaudible] I know this is not your question but I think of somebody-- You said did he talk about Sages and I think of Alan Watts, which Alan Watts would love to hear but-- I said-- well we were talking about different people, you know, and he-- he said how he met Alan Watts when he was 17 and in England. And apparently Alan Watts wrote an article for-- about Zen Buddhism and PB at the time was a literary or editor for the journal [The Occult Review]. And so the article was sent to his journal and they had a tea with Alan Watts, he and the editor who also spent many years studying these things. And, PB said the man had an incredible genius which flowered at a very early age and it must've been a carryover from his previous work with Zen. But, now Watts had-- the genius had matured and flowered but he'd lost something, said he also has gained something. And, I said to him, "Gee, when I saw Watts I was very disappointed in him," you know, again at this little conference where all these people came to. Said he really looked kind of rough and made some very disrespectful and I thought distasteful kind of remarks about Christ in the Catholic Church. And-- [short pause] Well, PB didn't comment too much about that, he just said that he really did have a genius when he was young and it has flowered but-- He has lost something and that he has also gained something, you know. And-- [short pause]

Actually we didn't talk that much about like Atmananda or Ramakrishna or something. He did talk some about Ramana, listing his-- some of his quotations occasionally. [9¼ second pause] He was very interested too in this-- I told him about Chapel House, you know the place they have up at Colgate and how somebody left a lot of money there and they have this huge facility which is not very heavily used but it's there and people can go on retreat there if they like and spend merely two dollars a day for room and board. He was very interested to see that these kind of things are spreading up in the academic atmosphere. In fact, he wrote it down and said, "Oh I'll tell some people who live in that area, if you're looking for a place to-- to go away for a retreat."

And, he asked if the philosophy department at Cornell had interest in Eastern things and I said, oh I wasn't very much in touch with the philosophy department but to my knowledge they certainly seemed to offer a very extensive or courses, although I know of one or two kind of introductory courses on Eastern thought. He said he-- he said he regretted or-- that may not be the appropriate word, but he wished or something like that that he were near a large library like Cornell. He asked if Tony made use of it and I said yeah he did, and especially a lot of students would bring him volumes now and then. He said, "Yes, it's very hard in this very provincial place I live in."

[12 second pause]

MEDITATION AND PAST KARMA; TOLERANCE FOR GROUPS; MAO CRITICISM; RESPECTING ELDERS

JL: Did he make any additional remarks about devotion?

[14¾ second pause]

VM: I don't think so. He said an interesting thing though, which somehow it just pops into mind now, is that very often in the beginning of your practices of meditation, we'll reap some benefits or some of the karma that you've accrued from previous lives in your work and experiences with meditation. Which seems quite reasonable but I've never really thought of it before. But as far as what procedures or how one should approach the whole thing, he didn't really say although he did stress its necessity. Now, as I said, you know, that may apply to a lot of us, it certainly applies to me. I guess that's the kind of thing you really can't say for somebody else, how to do it.

S: Vic, a while back you said that he had a good word for a lot of groups that many of us considered to be way out.

VM: Well like the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi [couple words inaudible] I think he's, you know, kind of a strange guy. And yet he thought that well, he was doing-- he was doing good, you know. Well we talked about for example, like I read not too long ago where the US Army is using Transcendental Meditation and drug therapy for certain people, and it seems to be very successful. And-- oh we talked about (Suvi), this group that I was involved in in California, it's of Indonesian origin and really kind of a-- sort of a cult spiritualist (planet) sort of thing. I thought that (for) the time but I stepped in anyway and he talked a bit about that. But he said that, you know-- As I say, the only time he really was against things was like the Timothy Leary-Richard Alpert drug thing, very adamant about that, and also Mao Tse-tung. He didn't like Mao. He talked a bit about Mao and I tried to be a liberal and say, well, you know, he's done a lot for the people in terms of medical care and so on and so forth although he certainly has robbed them of a lot of freedom and he says, "Yes. If one wanted to evaluate these revolutions solely in terms of how much food a man has in his belly, well then in some ways they're a success. On the other hand, they've totally disrupted the society, they've robbed the people of freedom." He says, "Here in the West we have much more relative freedom," I mean, you know, relative freedom is just that.

EM: Oh he said-- he said another thing that's an interesting thing, that in light of our society he said during-- he-- and he said "And during the Cultural Revolution, the youth behaved terribly toward their elders." (laughter) Oh yeah. We forget about that in this country about our behavior toward our elders. He's really into that. He talked a lot about the age, you know, about his age and how he shouldn't do this in his age and how he-- like he took naps to prolong life and slept this way and he is a--

VM: That's when he went to bed this way.

EM: He went to bed (this way).

S (very faint): Right.

S (faint): Uh-hm.

JL: Uh-hm.

S (very faint): Uh-hm.

[short pause]

S (faint): Vic? You mentioned that PB spoke about the teachings of Christ [couple words inaudible] and how he came-- how Jesus came from another plane. Did he say anything more about that or?

VM: Well, I guess I left out one part, he said that either consciously--

[Audio File 1973 0604b Ends]

[Audio File 1973 0604c Begins]

GRACE

VM: --don't really think he gave more detail than that. [short pause] I really forgot, I-- well it seems to me a very important thing somehow, and that was right around the same time this conversation about two types of people. This is in conjunction with some questions I was asking about meditation. Some questions about meditation that I was talking to him about, and one of the things he said was that grace is so important. He says in the beginning, you feel like it's all your own will or the operation of grace is not very evident. However as you advance you see that grace is more and more operative or it's operating more and more. And he said how grace, at least in part, is the result of our aspiration. [9¾ second pause] And that the ego-- this is another thing I guess that Tony was saying Friday night, that the ego really can't lift itself up by its own-- well he used shoestring and Tony was saying bootstraps but certainly the same idea. (laughter)

That really does take grace, you know. We haven't (really gone over) [few words inaudible] (and) be accurate. But it's hard to be accurate, you know, you get slowly snowed under with all kinds of things, difficult but--

Anyway, that was important, at least to me it seemed important, about the necessity of grace and how at least in part it's a result of our aspiration. And how we can still the mind (with our/by) will to some extent but in order to really penetrate this ego complex or I-complex it requires grace. It's a gift.

[15½ second pause]

RC: Did you ask him at all about how to go at it in terms-- You know, not the thing with, you know, straight out and out will but trying to go the way of devotional approach.

VM: I didn't ask him, Randy, I-- When PB gets on these-- when PB is on-- for me anyway, when PB's talking about his diet or about places in Montreux and so on, there's an exchange, you know, and I'll talk to him, but when he talks about things like this, I just go quiet, I just-- He says what he says and I remember and pick up what I can. But I didn't ask him, "How should I go about it?" you know. I'm not even sure if it's in or if he could maybe he wouldn't. You know, I don't know. [17¾ second pause] It's a lot of grace just being here isn't it?

AD: Sure.

VM: But here we are.

AD (simultaneously): You're talking to us Vic. Isn't that grace? We already had a good dose of him, you know. (We all together) tonight. [9 second pause] Why don't you ask some questions? Do you have any questions? Ask him questions.

STUDENTS HAVE AD AS TEACHER; PB AVAILABLE FOR IMPORTANT MATTERS

VM: PB stressed too, you know-- I-- this is revealing part of some of the-- He gave me a few messages to give to people which I have given them completely as I can. Kind of-- In a couple of instances he said, "You don't need me" or "These people don't need me. Tony--"

EM: "They have contact with Tony."

VM: "They have contact with Tony." I was going to "Tony is their teacher" but I don't think that's the way he said it, it's "They have Tony." [short pause] On the other hand he also said, "If there is something important, they should feel free to write me." I think that was for a few specific people but I think-- I don't think I'm going overboard in saying that's probably appropriate for all of us.

[39 ¾ second pause]

PERSONAL REACTIONS; IMPROVED MEDITATION

JL: What about personal reactions? I mean, what were you [couple words inaudible] feel pain right now? You feel any pain?

VM: Yeah, I think so. I talked to you about it John but I feel-- it'd be difficult for me to put it into words under any circumstances and in a large group. Be hard. There's definitely some things happened, you know. My meditation seems a whole lot better than it's ever been, you know, and that we have some sorts of small kind of psychic kind of phenomena and so on while I was around PB. But-- As I say we could talk about it later if you like. I'm sure the most important things I couldn't articulate or it can't be put into words anyway.

S: You don't even know about (those). (bit of laughter)

S: Right.

S: I'm sure.

VM: He snuck under my armor I'm sure.

SPIRITUAL BOOKS FOR CHILDREN; QUESTER COUPLES ATTRACT QUESTER SOULS

LS: Elaine, when you were talking to him about-- about kids, did he mention any places where these books were available, kids' books, kids versions of-- [VM: Yeah, he did.] of fairytales, you know, pictures and stuff.

EM (simultaneously): He talked about the Indian thing, he said there's a version of it with very large pictures and he s-- and like he was obviously into that kind of thing, you know, like picture books and that kind of stuff.

LS (simultaneously): Yeah that would be really nice, you know, instead of these little Golden Books.

EM (simultaneously): But then he could-- he didn't know if it was-- (laughter)

VM (laughing): With fire engines.

EM: Right, right.

LS (simultaneously): Yeah, fire engines and Old McDonald.

EM (simultaneously): But he didn't-- he didn't know. I said, "Well is this book in English or is it in another language?" and he-- He'd seen it in India, so it wasn't in English but as-- I mean, the copy he saw was in English but-- but he didn't really know. He just felt that it was important to look around. Like I-- you know, he-- I don't think he has that much contact with children himself. But-- He really stressed-- I mean (you) talked to him about that a long time, the importance of religious education. And the importance of a good example, which I know anyway, but when he tells me, I cringe every time I swear or something like that, you know. Like it really made me feel like I have to-- it made me able to start making some of those changes, things I'm not satisfied with. But he also said about children, which I thought was interesting, was that-- he said it was likely that if one was-- if a couple were questers that they would have a child who's a quester. He said insofar as there's free will in the soul, it'll choose a-- a child will choose to be born to a family where people are questers.

VM: It's hard to understand.

EM: I don't know. That's what he said.

PSYCHOLOGY VS. PHILOSOPHY; JUNG'S LIMITS; PSYCHOLOGY ENDLESS

RG: But-- but did you get to-- did you talk to him more about the relation between psychology and philosophy in terms of a [few words inaudible]

VM: Well I mentioned when Tony gives classes in Jung, he is very careful to place Jung in the right context from the philosophical point of view, show exactly his limitations and exactly where it can be of help. And he said, "We thought very highly of Jung." Said, "Yes, Jung really had a lot of insights and did a lot of good work, but he didn't go all the way." But--

S: He's going by your remark about that, Vic?

VM: No, I didn't tell him.

S: Ah, too bad.

VM: Also I told him too-- (laughter)

S: What remark?

S: What remark?

S (simultaneously): Oh come on.

VM: Oh somebody's-- oh I guess Jung-- Jung and PB have been together a couple of times and have written letters and stuff. I don't know where the story came from but somebody said that Jung said to PB, "I went in the back door and you went in the front door" and I made a wise crack, "They didn't go in the same house," so-- But I didn't think it was heard but it got around. (laughter) But the one thing he did say which is kind of interesting, you know, he really (kind of gave) me a knowing smile. I said at one time I was really heavy into psychology and more experiential rather than analytical sort of psychology and I just got so messed up doing it that it finally drove me to meditation. I couldn't find any way out, and that even for the last few years like really psychology it seems like it's one layer of the onion after another and there's no end to it and it just gets muddier and muddier. And I really get disgusted, you know, I said it's like-- just seems so hopeless, you know. Doesn't seem like the solution is there. And his eyes, again this is interpretation, but there was definitely a smiling. Says, "Yes, it's true." (laughter) He doesn't want us to get stuck in psychology either, you know. But other than that Rich I can't think of specific things.

S: Uh-hm.

[15¼ second pause]

COMMENTS ON CENTER; AMERICAN PIONEERS; CENTER AS SANCTUARY

RG: Did he mention any comments on astrology or things referring to [couple words inaudible]

[short pause]

VM: I took his comments as quite encouraging actually about astrology, you know. I was thinking of you when I said about students who have helped elucidate astrology, Samkhya system.

[few seconds of faint background student talking]

LS: You think maybe I ought to send him a copy of that article or?

VM: Oh, I don't know, ask Tony.

LS (simultaneously): I already sent [one/two words inaudible] article, you know.

VM: Ask Tony (about that). [33¼ second pause] I said something too about the Center, I guess in relation to the Center. I said how it really pleased me so much to see this building be built, not that I like to use just material things as any criteria in which to judge the value of what was going on here, but still, it really showed me and others too a real solid commitment to the doctrine or to Tony and what's going on here, I mean I explained how-- I'm sure you probably know, is how the frame was built almost entirely through contributions and everybody pitched in and a lot of us were real amateurs but still we managed to, you know, get up a nice building and it's very beautiful and so on. And he says, "Yes, that is--" Try to be exact here. Well I can't, but the flavor of it certainly was yes, that's very good, and it shows that people are getting something from Tony they can't get anywhere else.

EM: He also made that comment that people must be really getting something from Tony that they can't get anywhere else or else they wouldn't have been-- come for years. Mentioned how people just stay and stay. (laughter)

S (faint): That's very true.

S: I believe so.

[9 second pause]

VM: Well he also said something which I don't understand what-- again about the Center. I-- when I was talking about how we want to make up the appropriate sort of legal and financial things to protect Tony's legal and financial interests and so on and yet have him keep close watch on the place, I said how you know the building draws a lot of attention, it's kind of a unique building, there's a lot of cars around it and so on. And he said, "The building's made out of logs, isn't' it?" I said, "Yes, it is," and he says something like, "Well, only Americans use logs." I don't know.

EM/S(?) (faint): (They also buy logs.) (laughter)

VM: Yeah. I don't know what he was getting at but it stuck in my mind a little bit. Maybe we're pioneers on a new level.

S: (Who knows.)

VM: Hope so.

EM: I think he used the word "pioneers" with logs, [S simultaneously: Pioneers.] the American pioneers.

VM: Yeah, something like that.

[few seconds of faint background student talking]

EM: American pioneers (rolling) [couple words inaudible]

VM: Yeah.

LS: The ancestral spirits of the land, that could be.

VM: Could be we're all Indians come back. (laughter) They're in a log house on this very spot, all the Iroquois Indians.

LS: Oh Jung said something about that in-- [VM: But--] He wrote it but he said the ancestral spirits of the Indians were very strong in the making of the American psychology. That's an article I [one word inaudible] by [one word inaudible]

[few seconds of faint background student talking]

VM: It just struck me, you know, after leaving, Europe is such a mad scene when you're traveling around and so on, what a tremendous island of sanity and grace and spirituality, whatever you want to call it, this place is, you know? You don't kind of fully appreciate what a wild place it is out there when you're here all the time.

[35½ second pause]

S (faint): Thanks guys.

S: Thank you Vic.

VM: Well, thank you for your--

S: Yeah.

S: And now a word from our sponsors.

VM: Yes.

S: Yeah. (laughter)

S (faint): You want us, yeah--

[Audio File 1973 0604c Ends]