Class
Saturday, September 11th, 1976
Verbatim, unedited transcriptClass Held in Columbus, Ohio
with Anthony Damiani (AD)
September 11, 1976
Epistemology
TOPIC: Epistemology
SUBSUBJECTS: Buddhism, Mentalism, Witness-I, Ego, Sage, Knowledge, Plotinus, Matter, Astrology
CONTENTS:
Reading from D.T. Suzuki, Essays in Zen Buddhism (Third Series), on prajna, Gandavyuha sutra, how a Buddha sees the world
Fusion and blending of universal and particular
AD comments on D.T. Suzuki, Watts, Guenon
Western soul naturally Christian
AD and students discuss astrological aspects; transiting Mercury conjunct AD's Saturn, hard to think
AD book recommendations, ordering books
No knowledge of things, only ideas; pain and belief
Maya: television example, Sun rising illusion
Witness-I: dream analogy; and Overself; in everyday life; AD's experience
Reading from Plotinus, III.6.7, on Matter
Sage speaks from perspective of fixed World-Idea, is always working on raising mankind's level of consciousness; Sage's activity mostly incomprehensible to us
Mahayana school; Dalai Lama
Images and meaning; outer form and inner form; magnet example
Incomplete nature of our knowledge, which yoga aims to complete
Sage knows your celestial Idea
Characteristics of dreams from the higher self
Importance of sleeping on problems
Ego always rushes you; AD experience
PB's definition of ego
Ego can be objective to the Witness-I; extent of possible objectification
BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:
D.T. Suzuki, Essays in Zen Buddhism (Second and Third Series)
D.T. Suzuki, The Gandavyuha Sutra
Plotinus, The Enneads (MacKenna translation, 4th ed.)
John N. Deck, Nature, Contemplation, and the One: A Study in the Philosophy of Plotinus
Julian (Emperor of Rome), Thomas Taylor (tr.), Two Orations of the Emperor Julian; One to the Sovereign Sun, and the Other to the Mother of the Gods
Paul Brunton, The Hidden Teaching Beyond Yoga
Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
Thomas Taylor (tr.), The Timaeus (Vol. 2), in The Works of Plato, viz. His Fifty-Five Dialogues, and Twelve Epistles
Marc Edmund Jones, The Astrology of Concepts
PLOTINUS QUOTES READ OR REFERENCED: III.6.7
SABIAN SYMBOLS: Virgo 17, Libra 6
TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT 2019; prefatory matter and footer by JRM & JF 2019-20. In 2023, IT updates prefatory matter, footer, and audio file name, changes Topic, removes Subject, expands Subsubjects, adds TOC, completes Book List, adds Plotinus quotes section, fixes errors/typos, adds new notes within transcript. Archival verbatim transcript – V12a.
AUDIO FILES: 1976 0911a. [Note 1: "Tape" and "Side" refer to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files. Note 2: We only have one audio file for this class, we are missing the rest.]
1976 09/11 Class Held in Columbus, Ohio
Epistemology
[Audio File 1976 0911a Begins]
AD: --pure consciousness. Even to identify with that is the ut-- uttermost absurdity. To identify with that is insane. And you can see that it-- what-- what'll-- what it will come to will be this extreme identification with the ego-complex. That's what's going to result. And one could see that this is the necessary outcome of the Western man's passionate nature.
[14¼ second pause]
[tape break]
S (very faint): [one/two words inaudible]
AD: Oh no, this is Dr. Suzuki.
S: Yes, I remember. You-- as [S simultaneously, faint: D.T.] you said it, I remembered.
JC: Starting from here it says--
[Transcriber note: I am using Essays in Zen Buddhism (Third Series) by D.T. Suzuki, Rider and Company, London, 1953.]
D.T. Suzuki [Essays in Zen Buddhism (Third Series), p. 233, JC reading]: "Yet his perception yathabhutam [JC: Means see things as they are.] penetrates through these superficialities and recognizes that whether their minds are pure or impure, collected or scattered, greedy or not-greedy, they are all devoid of self-substance, of attachment, of discrimination. This is known as seeing all beings in their aspect of suchness, where pluralities in all forms vanish, revealing themselves such as they are in the light of Prajna. … [JC: Then he says--] When"the vanishing of pluralities" is talked of, one may imagine that they are ignored or annihilated in order to reveal their aspect of oneness. But what the Prajna devotees mean is that they are understood in their true relations, not only to one another but to that which makes up their reason of being."
AD (very faint): Yeah.
S (very faint): Ok.
AD: He's got Suzuki's works here, you got this one?
RW: Let me see one.
[tape break]
AD: --that sutra he's talking about.
D.T. Suzuki [Essays in Zen Buddhism (Third Series), pp. 75-76, AD reading]: "[We find here] nothing cold, nothing grey or earth-coloured, and nothing humanly mean; for everything one touches in the Gandavyuha shines out in [an] unsurpassable manner. We are no more in this world of limitation, obscurity, and adumbration; [AD adds: in this sutra] we are miraculously lifted up among the heavenly galaxies. The ethereal world is luminosity itself. The sombreness of [AD adds: the] earthly Jetavana, the disreputableness of the dry-grass seat on which the Lion of the Sakya probably sat when preaching, a group [AD reads: on which the Lion sits probably when preaching to a group, etc.]…all these have completely vanished here. When the Buddha enters into a certain kind of Samadhi, the pavilion where he is situated all of a sudden expands to the fullest limits of the universe; in other words, the universe itself is dissolved in the being of the Buddha."
AD: Ah here, good. This is more the Western way of understanding.
[short pause]
D.T. Suzuki [Essays in Zen Buddhism (Third Series), p. 76, AD reading]: "Thus in the study of the Gandavyuha, [AD reads: In this study, in this sutra] what is most essential to know is that the Buddha is no more the one who is living in the world conceivable in terms of space and time. His consciousness is not that of the ordinary mind which must be regulated according to the senses and logic."
AD: Alright. So he goes on and he says--
D.T. Suzuki [Essays in Zen Buddhism (Third Series), pp. 76-77, AD reading]: "In this spiritual world there are no time-divisions such as the past, present, and future; for they have contracted themselves into a single moment of the present where life quivers in its true sense. The conception of time as an objective blank in which particular events as its contents succeed one [after] another has completely been discarded. The Buddha [in the Ganda thus] knows no time-continuity; the past and the future are [both] rolled up in this present moment of illumination, [and] this present moment is not [AD adds: only] something standing still with all its contents, for it ceaselessly moves on. [Thus] the past is the present, so is the future, but this present in which the past and the future are merged never remains the present; in other words, it is eternally present. And at the center of this eternal present the Buddha has fixed his [AD reads: has his fixed] abode which is no abode.
"As with time, so with space. Space [in the Gandavyuha] is not an extension divided by mountains and forests, [AD adds: and] rivers and oceans, lights and shades, the visible and the invisible. Extension is here [AD reads: here is] indeed, as there is no contraction of space into one single block of existence; [but] what we have here is an infinite mutual fusion or penetration of all things, each with its individuality yet with something universal in it. The general fusion thus taking place is the practical annihilation of space which is recognizable only through change and division and impenetrability. To illustrate this state of existence, the Gandavyuha makes everything it depicts [AD reads: everything is depicted as] transparent and [AD reads: as] luminous, for luminosity is the only possible earthly representation that conveys the idea of universal interpenetration [AD reads: penetration], the ruling topic of the sutra. A world of lights transcending distance, opacity, and ugliness of all sorts, [is the world of the Gandavyuha]. [AD: Now--]
"With the annihilation of space and time…"
AD: So one could see this vast interfusion and interpenetration of the individual and the particular, I mean the universal and the particular, alright. On the one hand they're separated, on the other hand they're not separate. I am part of the universe and yet I am a-- distinct from it, alright, but the two of them are fused or blended. Whereas the way we see now, this is my-- me, this is "I" and that's the world. And never shall they meet. Ok.
D.T. Suzuki [Essays in Zen Buddhism (Third Series), pp. 77-78, AD reading]: "With the annihilation of space and time, there evolves a realm of imagelessness or shadowlessness [(anabhasa)]. As long as there are lights and shades, the principle of individuation always overwhelms us human mortals. In the Gandavyuha [AD reads: But here] there is no shadowiness; it is true there are rivers, flowers, trees, nets, [banners], etc., [AD adds: and] in the land of purity, in the description of which the compiler taxes his human imagination to its [utmost] limits; but no shadows are visible here anywhere. The clouds themselves are luminous bodies inconceivable and inexpressible in number, hanging all over the Jetavana of the Gandavyuha [AD reads: hanging all over the garden where the Buddha preached]--which are described in its [AD reads: his] own terminology as"heavenly jewel palaces"…
"This universe of luminosity, this scene of interpenetration, is known as Dharmadhatu, in contrast to [the] Lokadhatu which is this world of particulars. In the Dharmadhatu there are space and time and individual beings as in the Lokadhatu, but they show none of their earthly characteristics of separateness and obduracy as are perceivable in the latter."
AD: Do you get the feeling of what he's saying? Any idea? Alright. Everything, so to speak, is an expression-- every particular is an expression of a combination of universals. But it's perceived as a particular, not as a universal. But here it's like that's broken through. The universal and the particular are blended. Best example is music. Because the seven notes of the tonic scale all interpenetrate and all participate in each other. You cannot play c and not hear d, e, f, g and all the rest. The very nature of the musical scale is that dynamism where every note implies every other note. [student assents, faint] Try playing c, d, e and stop. You see you can't, you gotta go on, right? Well, alright, let's go back to that book.
RW: Is this a good place for Plotinus' mirror analogy?
AD: Yeah.
RW: Jeff? Need some help here. I'm trying to--
JC: When he said principle [S simultaneously: Which (book/one)?] of individuation which gives rise to the shadows--
S (very faint): [one/two words inaudible]
JC: What?
S (faint): We're trying [one/two words inaudible]
S (simultaneously, faint, possibly part of background): This book.
S (possibly part of background): Hello?
JC: Oh yes, ok, that's very nice.
AD: Well, give her the quotes on it. She'll want more, she wants to read those quote(s). It's really quite-- quite a feat because actually-- It's actually that you know you're an individual, you're a particular, you're part of the whole, [RW assents] and at the same time you know the whole. Like the way we feel now we feel alienated, "This is me," alright, "This is I. That's not-I." And when I say "that" I'm looking at all of you. [couple inaudible student words] I'm looking at the room, the buildings, the sky--"that's not I, this is me," alright. And this cleavage between the "I" and the not-I is always a standing sore thumb. Like even when you want to enjoy something it sticks up, you know, and there it's in the way, it's an obstacle constantly. And this-- this wiping away or this-- this breaking down of that separateness that the ego, you know, establish, the experiences are-- it's, you know, an ecstatic rapture, you know. Just like in music or in love, the-- the separateness of all things is obliterated. And yet, nothing has changed. One person doesn't melt into the other and you have Siamese twins. [students assent, faint] So that's what-- that's what he's talking about and that's a very beautiful chapter.
Suzuki did such a marvelous job. And, that's why when you see what some of these people have done to Suzuki you'd like to (crown) them. A good example is Alan Watts. He got a puerile and infantile understanding that he thought was the end of the universe. And Guenon too. The obtuseness, the-- the actual vulgarity of his (disability). You can't read him and walk away without feeling, "I am it." You know, he's the eternal discontent, Saturn square Jupiter. You're going to be like that all your life. You couldn't possibly bring out compassion for others because you're involved in such a conflict with yourself. But he projects it out into the world. Anyway, that doesn't detract from the-- what is worthwhile when you read him. But you just have to keep that in mind. I told you a story about the great Suzuki, (he stopped--) where he had such tremendous of a presence. He's sleeping, you know, everybody's so studious and alert, the wind blows through the window, he puts his hand out, stops his papers, everybody's papers are flying all over the room. (AD laughing, student assents) And, who was it, fellow who wrote Philosophy of-- He says, "Oh, he looked like he was asleep, you know." But his mind was like, you know, a mirror, just taking in everything as it came.
[students assent, very faint]
S (very faint): [couple words inaudible]
S (very faint): Very attentive.
AD: He's quite a character. He's a small man like PB. Very soft, very quiet, very-- very learned, [S simultaneously: Did it--] unbelievable. He knew a half a dozen languages. He could pull out-- I mean if you wanted to know something he'd pull it right out, you-- you think he had a filing system somewhere. And the same with PB, they were not exposing all this junk. They don't feel a necessity to go around parading and peppering their books with the superiority. And that's why after a while when you read him a couple times you begin to see he's really great. But you can see, it was like something destined to come to America and [couple/three words inaudible]
Ok, then if you have time and you-- and you feel like really engaging yourself, go read Maritain and get the Christian point of view so that you don't think I'm-- I mean I may be propagandizing or I may be trying to infiltrate your Christian morality. (bit of laughter) [S, very faint: Yeah.] But it's there, believe me. You may not think so, it's there, it's operative. This is a preas-- this a presumption of your understanding. This is a-- this is something built into your soul and you think, "Oh, this is the way things are. The substance of my being is going to become this entity, this entity that's going to be resurrected." And even though you say "Well I don't believe in that no more" you still believe in the basic assumption that you are this matter which is going to become or is going to be directed by the Ideas and the Forms to become this entity. You still believe that. You, you, you, you. I don't care that you're Jew, Greek, or anything else. That is a basic presupposition in your understanding. And like Jung said, [AD mimics Jung] the Western soul is naturally Christian. That includes his. [S simultaneously: Amen.] Fortunately I'm a foreigner. (AD laughs, laughter)
S: Jeff--
RW (in background, faint): Jeff? Seriously, now what's he mean there about the light in a room full of mirrors and so forth?
AD: He wants the exam-- the-- the thing with the mirror, the analogy of the mirror when Plotinus starts talking about it, [S: Hm?] how the-- and here's a beautiful comparative analogy you could work. You remember the--
S (very faint): Right.
S (very faint): Yeah I remember.
RW (in background): If you find it just stick that in where it is.
S: Which is--
S (faint): Yeah, uh-hm.
AD: John, you're getting senile. Things are (slowing up).
S (very faint): Yeah.
AD: There must be-- there must be some heavy aspect today. (General), where's Mercury?
S (faint): Oh.
JC (faint): Well--
S: Mer-- Libra.
JC: 6 Libra, 6 or 7.
AD (simultaneously): Oh, it's on my Saturn, no wonder. (AD laughs) Uh-hm. No wonder! (AD laughing)
[Transcriber note: There is a lot of background student talking for the next 11½ minutes. Sometimes it is hard to tell what's part of the background and what isn't. I do my best.]
JC (simultaneously): It's ret-- retrograde.
S (simultaneously, faint): Retrograding, right.
AD: Oh sure, it's going backward, yeah, I like to hear, that's-- that's normal.
S (very faint): Venus is there too.
S (simultaneously): Venus is there.
AD: Venus is there? In Libra? [students assent] Where?
S: 6.
AD: 6?
S: 6 or 8.
S: It happen to me?
S: Well, I got up this morning.
AD: Well that's real crazy, what ever made me come this week then?
S: [one/two words inaudible]
S: Right. (bit of laughter)
S: Well I [couple words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Mercury on Saturn, heaven help me.
S: Well I think it's (fun/fine). (some laughter) I think it's (fun/fine)!
RW: Philo's been up since 6 am waiting for you to get going. (RW laughs, bit of laughter)
AD: Well you know, [S simultaneously: I couldn't clean up (one/two words inaudible)] if Mercury's on my Saturn, it's very-- I can't think. Well, it can't think.
[students assent, faint] (bit of laughter)
S: Well I'm born with it.
AD: The poor Saturn has to alter.
S (simultaneously): I'm born with it.
AD: You're born with it?
S: Uh-hm, but I'm a little bit slower but I think it sticks. (laughter)
AD: If you work for it.
S (simultaneously): Great.
AD: But believe me, you know, my Saturn, when Mercury goes around there it starts shivering, trembling.
S: Tony? I haven't read enough Alan Watts but what is your-- the negativity toward Alan Watts come from, what is it based on? I've only read one of his (book(s)).
AD (simultaneously): He's very pretentious, he thinks he understands philosophy, whereas it's no more than a (prime/crime). His writings are no more than a (prime/crime). And these people have done a lot of harm to your generation with the drug [one/two words inaudible] They've-- they've created an enormous amount of bad karma for themselves and I'm including people like Huxley, ok.
[short pause]
S: Tony, in the Monday [one word inaudible] Venus Mars Pluto conjunction, what it means? Not--
AD (simultaneously): Well, I didn't hear you.
S (simultaneously): Not for you.
AD: What?
S: What it means?
AD: What means what?
S: Venus Mars Pluto conjunction.
AD: Venus Mars Pluto conjunction?
S: That is today.
S: Yeah (but you got) [one/two words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): That sounds delightful.
S: Mars is there.
AD: That sounds to the po-- like the possibility of a comprehension of the androgynous state. (laughter)
S (amidst laughter): He's provocative.
AD: You know, like you understand the meaning of being a united individual, the male and the female principles combined, [S: Yeah.] and a comprehension of that.
S: Today?
AD: It is today?
S: Yeah.
S: Uh-hm.
S (simultaneously): Mars is.
S: Mars Venus conjunction, yeah.
AD (simultaneously): I-- I better go look [S simultaneously: Mars Venus?] for a pretty girl. (bit of laughter)
S (to S): Yeah.
S (possibly part of background): (That's) Philo's.
AD (laughing a bit): I don't want that to happen to me, that's a catastrophe.
S: That's why I washed the dishes this morning. (S laughs a bit)
AD: You washed the dishes?
S: Without being asked to.
AD: Wow. It's operating in you, you better watch out. (S laughs)
S (faint): What happened?
S: Yeah. (bit of laughter)
AD (possibly part of background): What's in it though?
S (simultaneously): But I need to put all this together somewhere.
S (possibly part of background): [one/two words inaudible] yeah.
S (simultaneously, possibly part of background): But then at some point--
AD: Are you-- are you kidding?
S: I'm not kidding!
AD: It's one of my first days!
S: I didn't [one word inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): I can't hold anything in my mind.
S: You-- you (do) (that/this).
AD (simultaneously): Did you ever try to write in mortar? That's what I'm doing.
S (simultaneously): You have no-- you have no idea how-- what-- how that got worded (really/freely).
AD: Oh, that's a projection honey. I'm pretty objective about my psychic processes and I know when I'm functioning properly and when I have to fight. There's a difference, you know. Flows out naturally, I, you know, see everything right in front of me. Or like today I got to be babied. You don't hear the anvil back there but there's a little monkey with an anvil (AD laughing) trying to forge the thoughts and push 'em out.
S: No I-- essentially because I remember when you came in June last year you said the same thing.
AD: Well I must have had the same aspect.
S: Yeah, well you--
S: But doesn't Saturn help-- doesn't Saturn help you look ahead and-- so that it's--
AD (simultaneously): Saturn always looks backward, it's the clown. It's the procrastinator in the chart. Takes him 28 years before he finally decides to do something he started out doing.
S: Well if he's [S simultaneously: (Red?)] the reason-principle [AD simultaneously, in background: Red? (RW: Uh-hm.) Go ahead.] he knows it. If he's the reason-principle he knows it.
AD: Oh, you're getting carried away now. Sure he's the reason-principle but it's going to take him a Manvantara to get to know it!
S (simultaneously): I'm-- no, what I'm trying to do is because I have this conjunction, you know, anyway, I'm trying to--
AD: Saturn--
S: Mercury.
AD: --Mercury conjunction? [S simultaneously: Yeah.] In what sign?
S: Yeah. It's in Taurus.
AD: Well, that's good because--
S (simultaneously): But it's in the third house.
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, that'll help-- in other words, you've got to produce-- you're being forced on your own intellectual processes, you have to rely on them. That's what that really means. It kind of isolates your ego from everything else so that it could ponder about it. [S simultaneously: This-- this is what I thought (one word inaudible)] So it's a good conjunction. It can become very selfish, you know, it-- the entire preoccupation of Mercury could be with its own ego. But if you do it in the right way then it's good.
S: But with that-- the thing that helps me there is in-- is the opposition to Jupiter, both of them.
S (faint): That's great.
S: And that's the ninth house.
AD: Yeah, that will prevent it from becoming static.
S: Yeah. But I was just trying to, you know, think maybe that it couldn't be as bad as you say it is.
AD (simultaneously): Oh I know when I'm in-- I know when I'm in good shape honey. Believe me. (S laughs) And I know when I'm really sitting down. You know, there's times when the pro-- the mental processes, the fabrications that are going on are really under my control and there's times when they're not. And I can tell. So today isn't one of my best days. But anyway, we'll-- you'll just have to put up with it. (AD laughing)
S (simultaneously): [couple words inaudible]
S: Oh, I've got it in Scorpio [three/few words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): You find it, Jeff?
JC: Yes. Well one part of it. He had in-- in "The Impassivity [of the] Unembodied" he had two places [AD simultaneously: Yeah.] where he mentioned it there.
AD: Yeah well, alright, read the two book parallels. Or, use the Deck thing, read [JC assents, faint] from the Deck book. Deck has a very beautiful explanation. By the way, that might be of some-- that book is no longer in print-- print but, Jeff, if they xerox send a couple of copies to the group, I think they'll get enormous benefit out of that more than any other book on Plotinus.
S: What's the name of it?
S: Which one?
S (simultaneously): Nature, Contemplation, and the One. [Note: John Deck, Nature, Contemplation, and the One: A Study in the Philosophy of Plotinus.]
RW (simultaneously): Deck.
AD: Nature, Contemplation, and the One.
S (simultaneously): We have that.
S: We have that book.
S (simultaneously): It's in here.
AD: You have it?
S: Yeah, we got it.
S (simultaneously): It did come in.
JC: Oh you got?
AD (simultaneously): How many do you have?
S: [one/two words inaudible] needed one?
JC (simultaneously): Sold.
AD: Sold! (AD laughs)
S (simultaneously): I want one. Sold. (S laughs)
RW: Oh! You stay enclosed. (RW, AD laughing, laughter)
AD: Sold! (AD laughs) You sold them. (AD laughing)
S: Out of price.
S (faint): Oh no.
S: Paper?
S (simultaneously): [couple words inaudible]
S: (We do/Redo).
S: Yeah.
JC: This [one/two words inaudible]
S (simultaneously): Yeah, they just drop it (off), yeah.
[couple students at once, few words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Oh that's good, then you've got-- you've got them, good.
JC: Well then, don't give them any-- don't give any away.
AD: No, hold on to them for your group, hold onto them, they're xeroxing a few copies I think.
S: Well you could get more here available.
AD (simultaneously): No, no more.
S: We just had them.
S (simultaneously): [few words inaudible]
JC: No, [AD simultaneously: No more.] they're not available.
S (possibly part of background): From the One all the way down.
S: We just got them.
JC: And that was it, they were-- they would know.
AD: Would you rather be--
S (simultaneously): Oh I-- oh boy, I'm glad (I got mine).
S (simultaneously): She reminded [S simultaneously: Oh, they're remaining?] him when they came here.
S: Dave Yeoman's.
AD (simultaneously): You know, considering David Yeoman's luck I wouldn't be surprised if the wrong secretary got his letter.
S (simultaneously): Seriously, we just got them [S: Oh.] two days ago. (bit of laughter)
S: Yeah.
JC: But-- alright.
AD: Alright, try it again, see if you can get ten copies.
JC: There's about twenty people here that would like copies of it.
S: [one/two words inaudible]
S: But who wanted [S simultaneously: We want them.] one up there? Tim already wants a copy [few words inaudible]
S (simultaneously): Oh Kurt maybe wanted one.
S: Kurt.
AD: Never mind Kurt. (laughter, student words)
S (amidst laughter): [few words inaudible]
AD: Oh yeah.
[few seconds of background student talking]
S: There's another book on one of your tapes that I wanted to ask you about and that's this quotation which Barbara asked him about.
S: In Julian?
AD: Oh yes, those are the two orations. [Note: Julian (Emperor of Rome), Thomas Taylor (tr.), Two Orations of the Emperor Julian; One to the Sovereign Sun, and the Other to the Mother of the Gods.]
S: Yes. Are they in a book, are they cheap-- were they (copied)?
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, they're in a book, I don't know if the book is available. Book-- You know what we'll do? We'll do something like this. I'll ask Ed McKeown because he got them from a bookstore article (called--)
JC: (And) Aries Press.
AD: Aries Press. And they-- they are the original publishers and they published hundreds of copies and they never sold, you know, they never sold. So the thing to do is-- do you have-- do you have Aries Press?
S: No we--
AD: The publishers, do you write-- do you order from them?
S (simultaneously): No, we haven't used Aries Press.
AD: Order from Aries Presh-- Press, tell them you want five copies of the Orations of the Emperor Julian translated by Thomas Taylor.
S (faint): We want more than that.
AD: Ok. See if you can get five copies.
S: Six.
S: I think it's seven. (student laughs)
AD: Six, [S: Seven.] ten.
S: Do I get any? (laughter, student words)
AD: I think they're five dollars for two volumes but the first volume (is-- it's valuable).
S (simultaneously): It is three dollars.
AD: I'm sorry?
S: You want to write that down?
S (simultaneously): Three dollars.
AD: Huh?
S: Five, I'm convinced.
S (simultaneously): Three.
AD: Three dollars, look at that.
S: Well I don't care what it costs.
JC (simultaneously): And it's amazing [one word inaudible]
AD (simultaneous with S): Or order ten!
RW: Twenty copies Jan. (laughter)
S (simultaneously): Well, I'm going to order fifteen. (laughter)
AD: But, you remember, they won't sell except with-- I mean, a group that--
S (simultaneously): Yeah. I could sell fifteen I'll bet you right off (the bat).
S (simultaneously): Ok, I am in.
S: Well I want two. (laughter)
AD: Boy. You can't wear the [S simultaneously: Yeah.] pink [couple/three words inaudible]
S (simultaneously): One for [couple words inaudible] [few inaudible student words simultaneous with S] one for Saturn, one for Mercury.
RW: Have you got your order pad out?
S: I--
S: I'll just-- you just contact the bookstore 'cause I can't write all your names down, have to have me a title, yeah.
S: Avery almost ordered that Nature, Contemplation, and the One and maybe we got in right under the line.
S: You're right.
S: When he was down here.
AD: Yeah, it's possible. [S simultaneously: That's good.] But in case David-- I already know [one/two words inaudible] Look, I also go by the fact that David Yeoman ordered them, ok. Now David Yeoman has a particular kind of karma. (laughter)
S (amidst laughter): Wasn't me.
RW: Yes?
AD (simultaneously): In other words, there's always this constant conflict going on in him, [RW simultaneously: Yeah?] and the-- the possibility of, you know, a person like that would write, he would-- the response would be karmically not objective. So that a certain person would respond to his psychological condition and not to the objective (which he'll) write.
S (faint, possibly part of background): Yeah right.
S: Ok.
AD: Right.
S: Could you do that right away when you get home?
S: I'll do it [few words inaudible] [S simultaneously: Don't hold off.] get home, I'll just go right home and order it tonight when I get home.
AD: Well why don't you bring your pad here? (some laughter)
S (faint): Since [three/few words inaudible]
S (faint): Oh, I like that idea.
S: (I/You) (can promise)(--/.)
RW (simultaneously): We can-- we can make you five hundred dollars this weekend if you bring your pad.
S (simultaneously): How many copies should I get?
S: They're change(d).
AD: That's why I-- that's why you will-- nobody answering.
[few seconds of background student talking]
RW: He's just mentioned five different books that ought to be ordered and I want them.
AD: [one/two words inaudible] [S simultaneously: Well I--] that trick you. (bit of laughter)
RW (faint): You're just going to trick (me).
[couple seconds of background student talking]
AD (faint): [few words inaudible]
RW: No, I can't afford not to have them.
AD (faint, possibly part of background): [few words inaudible]
S: Oh, what-- I know--
RW: What? Deck and two volume--
S: We've got the Emperor's--
S: Emperor.
S: Oh.
S: We got one by Emperor--
AD: So very often these karmic [S simultaneously: Yeah, the Emperor Julian.] circumstance(s) (come). [possibly one/two very faint words inaudible] is what is [one word inaudible] I think the Oration is good.
RW: As soon as I quit working to start reading.
JC: There's two paragraphs here on the mirror analogy [student assents] [AD simultaneously: Uh--] from Plotinus [one/two words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Well, ok, why don't we review those analyses, they're very-- they're very beautiful parallel-- parallels. And, I think he wants to make the analogy and then we'll try to finish what we started. It'd give you a kind of picture. Now remember, it's only a temporary division between the Intelligible and the sensible and we're making it for the purposes of helping our understanding. Eventually they can be brought together, one realizes that the so-called sensible (world/realm)--
[tape break]
AD: --the same way you believe in this object, ok, and-- and the point here is to understand you're substituting belief for thing. You don't know a thing. All you know is the idea of the thing so that means all you have of this, so to speak, is a belief in your ideas of a thing. And if you really went through an analysis of what knowledge was constituted of, (you'd) become a solipsist. That's-- that's what the whole one-- first volume of the Hidden Teaching shows you, that the only thing you have a right to declare to exist fundamentally is the imagery that your mind, so to speak, presents you with. But to speak about an object independent of that you can't show me anywhere.
S (faint): When we have pain, do we believe-- just believe that that's pain?
AD: Some people that pain is ecs-- ecstasy. [short pause] And you've heard of for instance some people who don't believe in, you know, any kind of mortal disease or pain, and some even succeeded. Their belief was strong enough not to believe in it. Christian Scientists practice it. Some even get (ahead). I don't recommend it but it's there as a fact.
S (faint): Well then if you do it it'd be great.
AD: Uh-hm. If you've got that much will, you could do it. If you don't have that much will you can't. So we get-- the point that we want to get to is this here. What we call an object is not really an object. It's a belief in an object. If you put that word "belief in an object", you're correct. If you leave it out, and you say "this is the object", you're wrong.
S: But wait. You know she say-- you say she is--
AD (simultaneously): When you see on the television a horse running, alright, you believe it to be a horse but you know actually it's not a horse, it's a picture of a horse! [students assent] (laughter) And it's a good representation too most of the time. But actually it's only electrical impulses. (bit of laughter) Maya is so unbelievable. Look at this, we know, your reasoning has proved to you-- ok, can I say that? --that the Sun does not rise. Every morning you see it rise. (bit of laughter) Every morning the Sun contradicts you. "I'm rising!" (AD laughs, laughter) And your reason says "That can't be!" (some laughter) Alright? Maya. You remember the quotation, you got the quotation in-- he's got-- what series of Suzuki you have there?
RW: Third.
JC: He makes the impossible seem possible?
AD: No, he says where does the image, is it in the object, is it [JC simultaneously: Oh that's in the second-- second series.] outside the object, does it come from anywhere, does it go anywhere? (AD laughing)
JC: Second series.
S: You're right.
AD: It's really fabulous. (AD laughing)
JC: Page 182, second series.
RW (simultaneously): I knew it.
S (faint): What'd you say?
S: Now when you see a-- when you have a dream, do you actually see dream Tony?
AD (simultaneously): I don't dream. I don't dream.
S (simultaneously): Well ok, um--
AD: You have those dreams, you have it.
S (simultaneously): Well now-- well now when I have a dream I don't see dream Linda.
AD (simultaneously): I don't want to dream, I'm too tired, I want to sleep when I go to sleep. (laughter) [S simultaneously: Ok, when I--] I want nothing to do with images!
S: If I have a dream I don't see dream Linda running from the bear, I'm running from the bear. I'm dream Linda.
AD: Yes.
S: I don't see another little--
AD: That's what I'm saying.
S: --body [one/two words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): That the ultimate subject of experience is the real Linda, not the ridiculous imitative reflected cardboard copy. That doesn't experience anything. The ultimate experiencer of-- or subject of experience is your soul. That's what I'm saying, yes.
S (faint): Ok.
S: Ok, well I was just really wondering--
AD (simultaneously): Suppose you're having a dream now Linda, ok, suppose you're having a dream now. And we freeze everything, ok. And I'm a great surgeon, I go in there and I cut out the image of Linda in the dream and bring it out. Now do you think this dream (AD laughs a bit) Linda's gonna have feelings when we bring it to life? (bit of laughter, AD laughs)
S: Well I'm just wondering if when you talk of a dream analogy whether my dreams are like everyone else's.
AD: Oh yes, they are. (laughter, student words)
S: But I don't see, you know--
AD (simultaneously): Even though you got Uranus in the seventh house they're like everybody else. Just (sleeping). [few seconds of background student talking] Jeff, you know where that is?
JC: Yes.
AD: Read it to them, I think they'll enjoy it.
JC: What's that?
[few seconds of background student talking]
RW: Go ahead Jeff, I want to hear it.
JC: Well this is in the second series of Suzuki Essays. [short pause] That this is an extract from some sutra. It says--
[Transcriber note: I am using Essays in Zen Buddhism (Second Series) by D.T. Suzuki, Rider and Company, London, 1950.]
D.T. Suzuki [Essays in Zen Buddhism (Second Series), p. 168, JC reading]: ""And again, Bhadrapala, when a young man of fine mien…""
JC: Is that how you say that, m-i-e-n?
S: Uh-hm.
S (very faint): Uh-hm.
S (faint): Mien.
S: Mien.
RW: Mien.
JC: Mien.
D.T. Suzuki [Essays in Zen Buddhism (Second Series), p. 168, JC reading]: ""…wishes to see his own features, ugly or handsome, [JC adds: and] he takes up a vessel of refined oil or [of] clean water, or he brings out a crystal or a mirror. When either one of these four objects reflects his image in it, he definitely knows how he looks, ugly or handsome. Bhadrapala, do you think that what the young man sees in these four objects has been already in existence there?
""Answered Bhadrapala, [O no, Blessed One.]""
(Side 1 of original 60 minute audio cassette tape digitized as 1976 0911a Ends; Side 2 Begins)
AD: --yourself, alright. And you know you simply have to endure and hold on and not take them or identify with that-- let's say that, you know, confusion. And the next day the transit passes and you're back, ok. Now it's similar to this here. In the same way, when you think of yourself as the Witness-I, all the activities of the empirical ego assume that role. [student assents] (It's) only temporal. They don't take the likes and the dislikes of the ego as something to get anxious about.
S (faint): Uh-hm.
AD: Do you see the-- the analogy I'm trying to draw? It's like there's a place you can go in-- into yourself where you don't identify with these psycho-processes and assume that you are these psycho-processes. [student assents, very faint] What-- where is that? And there's no possibility of explaining that because that is the prior-- the assumed epistemological subject. In other words, your empirical ego consciousness rests on that assumption just like your-- the dream Cleta really rests on the real Cleta, otherwi-- you can't say the dream Cleta has consciousness. But, you say the dream Cleta is superimposed on the consciousness of the real Cleta and now dream Cleta think she's a conscious subject. [student assents, faint] In the same way, the empirical ego, alright, assumes that it is conscious. It is not. Ok? It isn't. What is conscious is the Witness-I, the ego, so to speak, superimposed [student assents, faint] on that. Now the Witness-I is like an in-between step. It's an expedient, so to speak, to get you to the Overself. Because beyond the Witness-I is the Overself. In other words, the Witness-I is like a temporary, you know, makeshift, which endures for a whole--
S (simultaneously): Ok, when you step back then you're not really at the Witness-I level.
AD: Huh?
S: It's like another center of consciousness.
AD (simultaneously): It seems like another center, you know.
S: But it isn't really the Witness-I position.
AD: It is the Witness-I. It's not the Overself position.
S (simultaneously): Really?
AD: Oh yeah.
S: That's all? (bit of laughter)
AD: Oh. You hold that position for more than a minute and you'll see what I'm talking about. No murmuring.
S (faint): Ok.
AD: You must have experienced it at times.
S (faint): Uh-hm.
AD: Like do you remember the example PB says about this hunter who was in the jungle, a tiger pre-- and he froze? Or like one of the kids was telling me they were driving, just about a second before they crashed there was this absolute transparent consciousness which in-- told them, "Don't worry, everything will be alright." Well, Terry was a good example, was driving and the car just swung around. She don't know why, how, anything, and made a complete 360 degree change. She took her hands off the wheel and for a moment (AD snaps fingers) there was a transparency in her consciousness and then the car straightened out and went-- went away. Didn't that happen to Linda? Cynthia? [S, faint: Uh-hm.] Happened to quite a few people.
S (faint): That happened to me (when I was--)
AD (simultaneously): Just before, you know, just before any real dangerous situation, the Witness-I comes into operation. It practically takes over. Then the panic sets in.
S (simultaneously): That has a higher kind of luminosity or [AD: Yeah.] something to it which you don't have.
AD (simultaneously): But you stay there, you stay there, [S simultaneously: Yes.] you'll see what I'm talking about. [student assents, faint] That's a--
S: Yeah, you don't get that kind of luminosity just in your everyday--
AD: No, you don't.
S: --standing back, (being/be an) observer.
AD: And its experience varies somewhat. Like some people imagine their Witness-I can coincide with the extent of the universe they see. Like if your consciousness goes out to that cloud, that's where your Witness-I is, everywhere within that realm. And then gradually when you lose it, it starts coming down, down, down, and then suddenly you're in this cubicle--"Let me out!" (AD laughs, student assents) There's a beautiful description of it in Tolstoy's War and Peace, when the prince gets enlightened and he s-- he says "I am the sky, the trees, the clouds. All of these."
RW (simultaneously): Can that occur--
AD: Huh?
RW (simultaneously): Can that-- can that occur in meditation?
AD: Yeah, it can, but usually-- usually it catches you when you're about everyday affairs. If you can practice (then), you know, it might catch you unaware. [students assent, very faint] There's no way of telling when-- now nobody could tell. I told you my experience that I was on the booth, just locked up in this jail. And I was trying everything, I was frantic. I was studying like a maniac for a couple of months, you know, you've gotta-- that's a foreground. And then in sheer desperation I leaned and the door flung open and I fell on the floor and I broke out, I was hysterical. (AD laughing) There were no stairs, you couldn't believe it. You could-- you can't tell how it'll come. I wasn't meditating. Far from it. In other words, that broke the pitch, you know. I had reached such a tense point that that broke it, when I fell. If there was a Zen Master he probably would have kicked me in the mouth or something, you know, broke my head or something. Because that was the moment, that was crucial, and that's the way it came. Just imagine you're down in the cellar with all iron bars, ok, all around you. I got in and I couldn't get out. I was going mad, I couldn't get out. And I really was panicking because I was studying all night, I was very tense, my head was hot. I went-- I went like this, I leaned and boom! the door opened and I fell down, you know. I couldn't see that that was the door. When I hit the ground, boy, "Ah!" (AD laughs) I went upstairs laughing. (AD laughing) [S: Fantastic.] I'm sure people thought I was crazy. (AD laughs) I was. (laughter) I think that was the only really sane moment I've ever had. [couple inaudible student words] Well it went on for three days, four days, something like that, and then it was taken away gradually. So there's no assurance, you don't know. You don't-- you have no idea (how--)
S (simultaneously): How could you explain that?
AD: Huh?
S: How do you explain that?
AD: Well I blame PB. I don't explain any of this. I write him a nasty letter and, you know-- [quietly] There's no explanation of Grace.
[tape break]
Plotinus [III.6.7, JC reading]: "[Matter]…is no Ideal-Principle, no Reason-Principle; it is no limit or bound, for it is mere indetermination; it is not a power, for what does it produce?
"It lives on the farther side of all these categories and so has no title to the name of Being. It will be more plausibly called [a] non-being, and this not in the sense that movement and station [JC: Rest.] are Not-Being [JC reads: Non-Being] (i.e., as merely different from Being) but in the sense of veritable Not-Being, [JC reads: Non-Being] so that it is no more than the image and phantasm of Mass, a bare aspiration towards substantial existence; it is stationary but not in the sense of having position, it is in itself invisible, eluding all effort to observe it, present where no one can look, unseen for all our gazing, ceaselessly presenting contraries in the things based upon it, it is large and small, more and less, deficient and excessive; a phantasm unabiding and yet unable to withdraw--not even strong enough to withdraw, so utterly has it failed to accept strength from the Intellectual-Principle, so absolute its lack of all Being.
"Its every utterance, therefore, is a lie; it pretends to be great and it is little, to be more and it is less; and the Existence [JC reads: Essence] with which it masks itself is no Existence, but a passing trick making trickery of all that seems to be present in it, phantasms within a phantasm; it is like a mirror showing things as in itself when they are really elsewhere, filled in appearance but actually…"
[tape break]
AD: --within the universe, are you speaking from that point of view or are you speaking from the point of view of being inside the universe and the way these things are relating to you, in which case you would have only a relative partial idea of what the object is. But stand outside and the whole universe is there, then you understand exactly what that object is and its relationship to all other objects and its relationship to the past and the future. You remember that from the Hidden Teaching?
RW: Uh-huh.
AD: Now which-- where are you speaking from? So naturally a Sage very often will speak to you, you say "What is he talking about?" Maybe it'd take twenty years before you understand because it might take twenty years before you see what he's saying. And there again there's difficulties because some Sages can speak from a knowledge that extends vastly into the future and some can't see that far yet. You know, that-- in other words, there's a-- a gradual infiltration of the whole Intelligible Idea (starts) coming into them, and it isn't that it isn't totally present there. It's a question of being able to translate it into human term. And that's where their problem is.
RW: When a Sage speaks then in the Eternal Now, he really can be speaking in my future but I can't comprehend but to him it's not the future.
AD: To him it's not the future.
RW: Yeah.
S (very faint): Yeah.
AD: If we could find that passage in the Hidden Teaching we'll see where he says there is a totally fixed knowledge. In other words, there is a knowledge of the universe which is fixed, not in a process of becoming. And this is where the Sage is coming from, speaking to you from. [short pause] And even for the-- even-- his understanding will even allow or permit for the contingencies that might arise in the sensible universe.
S: Are-- were you saying in the totally fixed knowledge then the Buddhists would--
AD: Oh they believe that. The Buddha had [student assents] that knowledge.
S: Well that's not a psychological level, that's really-- [AD simultaneously: Oh no, that's not (that).] that's metaphysical, that's why-- that's why I was--
RW: That's true.
S (very faint): Yeah, yes it is.
AD: Oh, don't misunderstand. You have to remember, you have very-- you have various and many schools of Buddhism. The Mahayana Buddhists are quite metaphysical. They believe and they accept all this, they even claim to, you know, work with it. An example was the fellow who says well, you know, they're building a Zen monastery and the [one/two words inaudible] says, well, they go back for five hundred years. They'll already have a pretty good idea when, you know, it's going to start making itself felt and worthwhile. And very often, you know, a religious leader or a prophet or a seer will do something now which won't take effect for a thousand years. And you say well, what is he doing it for, you know? [aside: Thank you.] That you don't know a word. You and I don't understand. It's almost like very often they go to different parts of (these, that) [couple words inaudible] got extended which later on are going to get fulfilled. They're quite-- I mean we can't comprehend. And so, at the very best we might have some educated guesses what they're doing. But that they-- that they are insistently working upon raising the level of consciousness of mankind is like a guarantee.
S: Well then those principles that you (were) [one word inaudible] to (this) ever-existing now, this flux, is that just a more of a psychological approach? I--
AD: Well you-- you must approach from the human level.
RW (simultaneously): Yes, yeah.
S: Ok.
AD: Yeah. With will it's the same. Look, you're a human being, this is the way knowledge comes to you and this is the way it is for you.
S (faint): Uh-hm.
S: But they're in-- they're not necessarily negating--
AD: No. Except for a few schools, you know, which will negate anything anyway, you always find some. But the Mahayana schools understood. They refer to the Buddha as omniscient, he has knowledge of everything.
S: Uh-hm.
AD: They're aware of that and I hope I didn't make you think that they're negative or (ignorant).
S: Well I just was confused about--
AD: Oh no, they're quite-- as a matter of fact they're quite amazing in many ways.
S: Some kind of (thinking) article, I thought it said that the two highest (Buddhists/Buddhas) to ever come to this country are asking for aid to rebuild a monastery. It would seem like they could just stay over there and work at a higher level, and if it's supposed to manifest--
AD: The two highest Buddhas? You mean that article that you showed me in the paper?
S (simultaneously): Right. I think that's what it said.
AD (simultaneously): I didn't think they were the two highest Buddhas. Does it say that?
S (simultaneously): Didn't it say that they were the two highest Buddhas to ever come to this country?
S (faint): Uh-hm.
RW: Well, they may have been the two highest to ever come to this country but they--
S: [few words inaudible]
S (simultaneously): [few words inaudible] Dalai Lama.
RW: That's a long way from Buddha.
AD: It's the Dalai Lama that's the big boy.
RW: Yeah.
S: Well they-- since they worded it in those words(--/.)
AD (simultaneously): You know, as a matter of fact, what was it, wasn't it PB who said that to Sid?
S: (Really?)
[tape break]
AD: --read Taylor. We're reading the commentary on Timaeus.
S (very faint): [three/few words inaudible]
AD: Oh no, I want a little juice. [RW: Yeah.] I'm drinking water, you know.
S: Oh.
S (faint): That's very good.
[9 second pause with faint background student talking, noises]
AD: Alright, you must have more questions on the-- That chapter, I mean, even I got questions on it, after 25 years. And I still got questions on it. You don't have no more questions on it?
S: I have a question not related to the chapter because I haven't even read this book yet. But when you were talking about--
AD: You're disqualified. (laughter, AD laughs)
S: Study the Hidden Teaching.
AD: Alright, now let's hear your question.
S: Ok. When you were talking about the image in dream, he said something like that the object of the image was the intended meaning of say the unconscious complex, and he uses [AD simultaneously: Uh-hm.] (maybe) [one/two words inaudible] So suddenly it struck me, the image of the chair as being an intended meaning of-- [AD simultaneously, faint: Yeah.] Is that-- does that fit in with this second book, (S laughs) I mean as being maybe the in-- the intended meaning of a higher mind or something, could it be translated that way? Because it-- again I'm with Dawn who asked that question about the dream in not understanding-- I mean that would make sense to me in terms of it seems that must have had continuity, the intended meaning and imagery.
AD (simultaneously): Well start again, would you please, from the beginning?
S: Ok. If the object of the image in the dream is the intended meaning--
AD: The meaning intended by the unconscious complex, [S simultaneously: Right.] alright, to draw attention to itself.
S: Right, ok, then wouldn't there have to be or would there have to be an intended meaning for the image of the chair or the image of Tony or, you know, maybe by a higher mind or something. And see, that's-- because we know that-- because I know or I guess I-- I believe that you're a real object but I'm beginning to know that you aren't. (laughter) So that I can compare you to a dream image.
AD (simultaneously): Well-- well then what we're saying is something like this, the image does present you with some sort of appearance, alright. [student assents] But now the inquiry has to start as to what the meaning of that is. [S: Right.] That what you know is the outer form of Tony which is probably the most insignificant part of Tony and that it would be worthwhile for one to investigate into the nature of this object so that he can get into the object as it is in itself in the World-Mind. In other words we have what you would call the inner form and the outer form. The outer form would be the object as it is-- as it is presented, and in an-- an appearance, alright. But then, what the object as-- what the object is in itself without that, alright, and the Hindus have the words-- Do you remember the Hindu? Svarupa.
JC: Svabhav?
AD: No, svarupa.
JC: Svarupa? Yeah, yeah, its own form.
AD: Its own form. So, the example we used was the magnet, alright. When we see the iron filings we see, so to speak, well we say "Ah, these are the lines of force," ok. But that's the outer form. If you take away those iron filings and let's say you had clairvoyant vision or let's say you had tremendous concentrative power you see the lines of force as they are in themselves irradiating [AD says: irridating], ok. Then you get to the inner form, you say "Ah, that's what the whole idea was tending to this here." So what we're saying is something like this, that basically the image is meant to bring you to a realization that there is an object here which you believe in but which you'll have(--) your knowledge requires to be further gone into. So that what-- the knowledge we have of an object is very much an incomplete knowledge. [students assent, faint] And like-- well, they could tell you, I kind of bug them, you know, I'm listening to music and I'll keep playing the same thing over and over and over. And until they get to that inner form of the melodic inspiration, I tell them they haven't heard it. I don't care how deaf they are, if they can't-- In other words, you have to reach that inner essence and then you say "I got it." Once you got it then you know the piece, until then you've just been listening to a lot of noise. Ok, you see what we're saying?
S: Yeah, but--
AD: There's the inner object as it is, so to speak, in the World-Mind and then there's the object, again the same object, but as presented to you in your imagination.
S: Uh-hm.
AD: And--
S (simultaneously): But I'm led to a-- a different question about-- because-- I think because of this word 'intention', and that is that the appearance of you in my consciousness-- if you are an image or a-- I don't know what the words you've been using about this putting out and then the abiding and then the retracting. If you are that of the World-Mind-- I mean obviously (how I confuse(d)--) This intended meaning thing, I keep going back to this, because meaning, I don't know, I-- I think I mean it. So if you have an intended meaning by the World-Mind or do you have an intended meaning for my personal consciousness which is seeing you? Do you understand what I mean? It's like--
AD (simultaneously): Not really, go-- go ahead, keep going.
S: Because it's very-- I guess it comes to the-- the question of, I don't know that you or any of you or any of this is sort of a projected image of the World-Mind or if you are a projected image of my mind, and if I should learn the meaning of you to me, which that's the only meaning I can learn, you know. I don't think I know how to answer-- ask that question yet.
AD: (Well) take your time, there's no rush. Well think about it for a while. But what you can really understand is that basically what we call knowledge is very incomplete. [student assents] Most of us have no knowledge except you might say a knowledge by description or acquaintance, a certain knowledge. It's always incomplete. And the whole idea of yoga is to give you real knowledge of what an entity is, what this object is, that object. So it's [S simultaneously: Oh.] like an unconsummated knowledge. You meet a person, and let's say the person intrigues you and yet you always feel a kind of inadequacy in all your knowledge about that person. And it's only when a person gets to what the celestial Idea or what the Overself is that one has a completion of the knowledge of that person and knows that person. Until then, all he has is an appearance of knowledge of that person.
S: Ok, thanks. Now, when you have that knowledge, do you have the knowledge of the person or do you have the knowledge of the-- of the potential or the meaning that person has to you, I mean kind of ultimately or really?
AD (simultaneously): Well that would be included. No, that would be included too.
S: Do you ha-- can you ever have the knowledge of a person as their own meaning or is it always [AD simultaneously: Yeah.] then maybe the real meaning they have [AD simultaneously: Yes, sure.] in your life?
AD: Sure. But you're speaking now of a very rare kind of individual, [student assents] a Sage, you know?
S (simultaneously): I know, that's what you were speaking about.
AD: And he has that su-- he has that knowledge. He has a knowledge of your causal being, [S simultaneously: Objective, uh-hm, ok.] of your existential archetype, the celestial Idea, what you really embody. And also that knowledge in place of-- in terms of his own relationship to you, [student assents] and what you mean to him or he to you. Sure. But that's rare, you know, that's a gift of the Gods.
[students assent, faint]
S: Boy, (I mean--)
S: And dreams.
S: That-- that will what?
AD: I'm sorry?
S: And dreams (works) [couple words inaudible]
AD: Well it depends, if you've been a good girl or bad girl.
S (laughing): Because I have my Overself, a few days ago I (suddenly) I dream that I was born (with/a) sheep and couldn't (walk).
AD (simultaneously): That you were who?
S: And then finally I awoke and I was very happy and I said, "That means in the dream book, that was my first idea, that means in that dream book that I will be today very lucky."
AD: Were you lucky?
S: No. (laughter)
S (faint): Oh.
AD: You better [S simultaneously: Yeah. Get another one.] change your dream book. (AD laughs, laughter) Get another one.
S: No that's the [couple/three words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): But generally one of the ways you know that the Overself or the higher self is operating in a dream it's very luminous. There's a luminosity that's unbelievable. There's-- there's an ecstatic intensity in the dream.
S: Sure.
S: (But probably shouldn't--)
[students assent, very faint]
AD: Yeah, usually if you get that it's-- it's important. Something important, for later.
S: But the psychology is first.
AD: The psy-- psychology?
S: Yeah.
AD: I don't think so.
S: No?
AD (faint): It depends what (you read).
S: I read Jung, Jung, Jung.
AD: Well Jung, yeah, but he's an exception. Most of them would be [one/two words inaudible] Dreams of prophecy or dreams of revelation, all that is, you know, hard to believe that they don't believe it because these things have been going on for 2,000 years. But there's no mistaking dream life that's from the higher self. No mistaking it.
S (faint): (No mistake.)
AD: [one word inaudible]
S (simultaneously): [couple/three words inaudible]
AD: Huh?
S: What that in the dream?
AD: Well--
S: Doesn't mean the subject of what the dream.
AD: I'm sorry.
S: That it doesn't mean the subject of the dream, it comes from the Overself or the higher self through the dream, it's(--) whatever I dream. It's-- it's from somewhere. Do I get from my Overself the dream as such?
AD: Yes your-- it can come from the higher self. I-- I knew of people who even got instructed in their dreams.
S: Uh-huh.
AD: I even tell the kids who've got a real tough problem: go to sleep with it. Work real hard and then go to sleep and ask your dream mind to help you. Many times you'll get up in the morning and the answer will be like waiting out there, you get up, boom!, it's there. [student assents] Sure.
S: This happen, yes I know.
AD (faint): Sure.
S (very faint): This happened?
S (very faint): [couple words inaudible]
[short pause]
S: That is a good-- a good saying, sleep-- sleep on it, think, sleep on (it).
AD (simultaneously): Oh yeah, definitely.
S: That's a--
S (faint): Saying.
AD: Yeah, sleep on it is very important.
S: Yeah.
AD: Anytime you have a real crucial decision to make, sleep on it. Because, you know, it's the ego's way of always saying "Hurry up, hurry up, rush, quick, get it done, hurry!" As soon as that's going on you could rest assured the ego's pulling the wool over your eyes. It's up to something. That's the only way it can get things done, you know.
S: Yeah.
S: What about the [one word inaudible]
S: That's its territory.
S: (I mean tidy up.)
AD: I'm driving the other night, you know, Sun Mercury conjunction. And you know my Mercury degree, the volcano? [Note: M.E. Jones, The Astrology of Concepts, Virgo 17, "A vast display of cosmic force is seen in the eruption of a volcano with dust clouds, flowing lava, earth rumblings."] And all of a sudden I wanted to beat everybody on the road. (laughter) "Wait a minute, back." (AD laughing)
S: That's my midheaven.
AD: That's your midheaven, oh. That's-- that can get you physically sick, you better watch out, you know. Boy, then I was ready to race everybody on the road. With that stinkin' stupid Dodge? (AD laughs)
S (faint): (Yes I--)
AD: Couldn't win over a scooter! (bit of laughter)
S: Suddenly it becomes a race car.
AD: Yeah. Yeah, once he sees these psychic impulses, you know, just take over. Mercury of course is (lucky). You got no more questions, huh Red? Getting weak.
RW: Oh, little bit. (bit of laughter)
AD: He's weakening. Not that we'll get any answers, right? We won't get any-- any answers but at least we might have some clarification.
[9 second pause]
RW: Where are all these people on Sunday morning who have all these questions?
S: Well I've asked so many I'm ashamed to ask any more. (S laughs)
AD: Well [one/two words inaudible]
RW (simultaneously): Where's Judy?
S (faint): I don't have any.
S (very faint): She's in the (back).
RW: Judy come on.
S (faint): No Red, (let her answer). (laughter)
RW: Yeah.
S: He's not that hot on Sunday morning Tony.
AD (simultaneously): Judy is happy with my appearance, she says she was very happy to see me so I figure all I have to do is appear and she'll be happy, (some laughter) all her questions will be answered. So we'll leave Judy out, let's try someone else.
RW (simultaneously): Barbara, are you all spoked out?
S (simultaneously): What the--
RW: That's it.
S (very faint): Yeah my [three/few words inaudible]
S: We'll have (Sunday/some good) porridge.
S: Goodnight Red.
RW: Geez.
S (faint): [couple words inaudible]
S: [couple words inaudible] (bit of laughter)
S (simultaneously): What does PB mean by ego? What is exact terminology, what does he really mean by--
AD: Well the ordinary usage.
S: Is that just a conception of the mind or the--
AD (simultaneously): No, the ordinary usage, I-- that's not ahamkara. The empirical ego. The ego-complex. Everything that you think that you are.
S: Does it mean even that objective look? Like you split your mind and you examine your feelings. Now--
AD: I'm sorry?
S: If you jump back from your feelings and thoughts in the sense that suppose you have thought about something and you go back and try to take a look. For example he says if you-- if you are very angry you-- you ask, "Who am I?" and you just step back a little bit. Is that "I" also included in the ego as such because it-- it is not real?
AD (simultaneously): No, no. If you step back, you're trying to objectify the ego. As strange as it may sound, the ego could be an actual objective entity. Not the empirical-- I mean not the-- not the subjective consciousness. (But) not that. But the ego can actually be objectified. One-- in other words, like what we were talking about before, you look at a certain thing going on in you and you don't identify. You're objectifying certain traits, mental characteristics and attributes, ok, you're s-- you're putting them out there and you're saying "Oh, so that's what I'm like." You're objectifying. As soon as you study philosophy you have to start doing that, it's imperative you do it.
S: And then that--
S (simultaneously): Could the ego see ego?
AD: It's not the ego seeing the ego.
S: But isn't the [one word inaudible] functioning (in the) objective?
AD (simultaneously): No. That's why I said, this is, so to speak-- the ego can be objectified. To whom? To the Witness-consciousness, not to itself.
S: The Witness-I is--
AD: The Witness-I.
S: --is capitalized, why don't you want--
AD: E-y-e.
S: It tells you why here.
RW/S(?): Wait a minute, wait.
S: Ok, that part is--
AD: Oh, higher ego.
RW (simultaneously): (Wait/Uh-hm).
S: I as-- I made a wrong assumption.
AD (simultaneously): No, I wouldn't call the higher "ego" [S simultaneously, faint: Ok.] because its very nature is to be very impersonal and put the ego-- The whole study, for instance, of science depends upon an impersonal reason-principle in us that could detach itself from its own subjectivity. And insofar that you can detach yourself from your own subjectivity, see your fantasies as fantasies, you are-- you are objectifying the ego. You're putting it out there and, you know, say-- looking at it. And you'll see how quick-- and a minute later you'll be those very things that you objectify. It is possible, very possible, and I recommend it.
S (simultaneously): How far is it that you think we can objectify?
AD: Huh?
S: How far is it that you think we can objectify?
AD: You can go all the way honey. All the way, which means that you become cardboard.
S: Uh-hm.
AD: In other words, you--
S (simultaneously): What about to the point of seeing the higher self, but that which still belongs to that higher self?
AD: Yes. That's what I mean all the way.
S (faint): Ok.
[Audio File 1976 0911a Ends]
1976 09/11 V12a: CLASS: Epistemology. Copyright 2023 Wisdom's Goldenrod p. iii