APPENDIX: Dalai Lama Interview (Short Version)
December 15, 1978
Sidney: We took many photographs -- over 500. These are just a few of the ones I liked so I had little prints made.
Charlene: I didn't know if you had a tape recorder but these are some excerpts from classical music -- Western classical music. Some of them, in our group, we listen to before we meditate because they're very reflective and some are spiritual. I don't know if you have… Do you have a tape recorder? … If you have time…
Dalai Lama: Thank you.
Sidney: And we also have an invitation from the group that we belong to and this it.
Dalai Lama: (Tibetan)
Secretary: It's in New York then? New York State?
Dalai Lama: How to pronounce?
Sidney: Ithaca.
Dalai Lama: Ithaca.
Sidney: That's where Cornell University is. Some Tibetan students were there many years ago.
Dalai Lama: Yeah, yeah!
Charlene: It's about five hours from New York City.
Dalai Lama: How long since you established this society?
Sidney: The group started maybe ten years ago.
Charlene: Here's some photographs of the Center. It was built by the members themselves.
Dalai Lama: This is Japanese style.
Sidney: Yes, Japanese gate. This is the view from the Center. There's a big lake down the hill. It looks over the woods. This is the main building. In fact, that's the only one you can see in that photograph. That's some of the members.
Dalai Lama: How many members?
Sidney: About 130. That's the main building. It's log on the outside but it's very modern on the inside.
Dalai Lama: It's very beautiful.
Charlene: Our teacher wanted it to be log because it's much harder to build a log cabin. He believes in hard work.
Sidney: He wanted everyone to work on it.
Charlene: To balance hard work with study.
Dalai Lama: Very good.
Sidney: This is the inside.
Dalai Lama: This one?
Sidney: That's the temple.
Dalai Lama: Ah!
Sidney: It's being built. It wasn't finished at the time but it will probably be finished when we return. And this is the guest house. When we have visitors they stay there.
Charlene: It's now finished.
Dalai Lama: And this one?
Charlene: This is our teacher, the person who organized the Center, Anthony Damiani. [Note: The first part of this sentence was actually spoken by Sidney, with Charlene adding "Anthony Damiani".]
Dalai Lama: This one?
Sidney: This is his teacher, Paul Brunton…
Dalai Lama: Ohhh…
Sidney: Who spent many years in India.
Charlene: He's written (many books).
Sidney: (At the classes in the Center) we discuss the relationship of ideas from one tradition to another.
Dalai Lama: Very good!
Sidney: There is argument back and forth.
Charlene: People don't live there. They come after they work. There are maybe four monks who live there.
Our teacher's interest is to synthesize all the philosophies and to find the one Truth, so we try to study all to be familiar with…
Dalai Lama: Very good. Some relation with Theosophy Society?
Sidney: No. Not exactly.
Dalai Lama: The idea is the same I think?
Sidney: Similar.
…don't have the opportunity to travel and see traditions first hand and meet spiritual teachers.
Dalai Lama: (Tibetan)
Secretary: His Holiness says he very much appreciates the idea behind the Center.
Dalai Lama: It's very good. It's very important to know the various different teachings and philosophies. If you look from wider perspective, all these different teachings, I think one aim, one single aim, to help the human mind to solve human problems, so more or less the same goal…so, it's very good…(Tibetan)
Secretary: His Holiness says thank you also for the invitation and if the opportunity does arise, His Holiness would certainly be interested to pay a visit.
Dalai Lama: (Tibetan)
Secretary: And His Holiness feels that the idea behind the Center seems to be that you're quite open to other faiths…
Dalai Lama: (Tibetan)
Secretary: Without making too much of a distinction between the different faiths.
Dalai Lama: That's good I think…(Tibetan)…Non-sectarian…accept every teaching, every good point, and argue with every teaching (laughs)…(Tibetan)
Secretary: His Holiness says without being too biased.
Dalai Lama: Very good.
Continuation of sixth mind is always (inaudible) whether you are seeing or not, whether you are awake or not. The sixth mind is always there. But within the sixth mind there are different levels. At the moment we are using one kind of sixth mind. When we are sleeping, different kind of sixth mind, still more subtle. Then we faint still deeper. When we're dying, the deepest sixth consciousness is working. So the sixth is from previous life to this life. To this life, next life…always continues. There is no beginning, there is no end to Buddhahood, so that sixth consciousness, sixth mind, and within the sixth mind--not this you see, rough sixth mind--but deepest sixth mind, usually we call the seat of Buddha. Now, that consciousness will go to Buddhahood. This rough consciousness will not go.
Sidney: So one more question. I'll skip these. This is a general question many people have. A lot of people just asked what qualities are the most important to develop for this spiritual quest (and what techniques can be used?)
Dalai Lama: (Tibetan)
Secretary: His Holiness says techniques may vary.
Dalai Lama: …and some people…for example, some people, the teaching of death more helpful, some people the teaching of karma theory is more suitable, some people, the teaching, of, you see, these psychological things may be suitable, for certain people the teachings of some sort of relativity theory, this (inaudible) theory, relativity, the sunya theory more suitable you know for beginner. Now in the long run all these teachings must be practiced and combined. Each teaching has some sort of special quality. And of course some people, the teaching of God, (Tibetan) God teaching, the theory of God…
Secretary: The acceptance of God…
Dalai Lama: Almighty. I think some people… So you see there are many varieties, but essence I always say, feel, that kindness, harmony, open heart, respect each other, help other as much, less selfish, share other people's suffering, more concern with other people's suffering and problems, that's the essence. Now in order to achieve these qualities…(Tibetan), [Note: Dalai Lama is speaking English here, not Tibetan, please see verbatim transcript above.] there are various types of teachings and methods, and we must have these qualities. As a Christian (Tibetan)…the idea of Brotherhood, the serving of mankind. Very good! Some of these, you see, great Christian people sacrificed their own life and their own private happiness (Tibetan).
Secretary: Personal sacrifices.
Dalai Lama: …to other people…for sake of other people's benefit. I think mainly due to their believing in God, serving God, actually serving God (Tibetan). They are serving their human brother. Very nice! Now as a Buddhist, the teaching of, right from the beginning, very much emphasis on kindness, compassion, bodhicitta, you see. The very purpose of (Tibetan) the desire to achieve Buddhahood is for the sake of others. No selfish motive, so these are very good teachings.
Sidney: So these are the most crucial for everyday practice.
Dalai Lama: Yes.
Sidney: To remember these qualities.
Dalai Lama: …and implement, in daily life: less selfish, less anger (laughs), more patience, for oneself, more contentment. These are… Whether you believe in God or not, whether you believe in next life or reincarnation, it doesn't matter. This very life exists. We remain as real brother. If we lead right type of life, whether you accept next life or not, naturally it will affect the next life. So this is what I always feel and what I myself also practice as much as possible.
[19781215 DAL Interview wgr F03 Sid and Charlene.PDF Ends. Note: Formerly misdated 1978 1015.]
Interview
Friday, December 15th, 1978
Verbatim, unedited transcriptSidney Piburn and Charlene Temple's Interview with His Holiness the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala, India
December 15, 1978 (Friday Afternoon)
with Appendix: Dalai Lama Interview (Short Version), December 15, 1978.
TOPIC: Dalai Lama audience
SUBJECT: Sidney Piburn, Charlene Temple
SUBSUBJECTS: Wisdom's Goldenrod, Buddhism (sixth mind), Quest, Ethics
CONTENTS:
Initial introductions and gift exchange; group invitation presented to Dalai Lama
Discussion of the Center: 1) location and history; 2) physical description; 3) leadership and philosophy
Dalai Lama's response to Center's approach: appreciates open non-sectarian approach; notes connection to Theosophical Society; emphasizes importance of understanding various teachings
Common aim across traditions: helping human mind and solving human problems
The sixth mind: continuous nature; different levels; continuation across lives; deepest sixth mind goes to Buddhahood
Various approaches for different people: death teachings; karma theory; psychological teachings; relativity theory; sunya theory; God/divine teachings
Essential qualities to develop: kindness, harmony, open-heartedness, mutual respect, reduced selfishness, compassion for others' suffering
Final teaching points: importance of implementation in daily life; value of practice regardless of beliefs; natural effect on future lives through right living; personal example of practicing these principles
Appendix: Dalai Lama Interview (Short Version)
NOTES:
This is 1978 12/15a, S. Piburn and C. Temple's Interview with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and the first entry associated with this date. 1978 12/15b = Plato; Parmenides Seminar, for which we have no audio, just AB notes.
Originally tape recorded by Sidney Piburn.
Scan file 19781215 DAL Interview wgr F03 Sid and Charlene.PDF is an older version of this transcript and it is appended here for completeness.
This was the first visit by WGR to HHDL in Dharamsala after Sidney's letter to HH.
Initials: HHDL = His Holiness the XIV Dalai Lama, SP = Sidney Piburn, CT = Charlene Temple (Macdowell).
TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT 2021. Archival verbatim transcript – V11a.
AUDIO FILE: 1978 1215a. [Note: "Tape" refers to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files.]
1978 12/15a
Sidney Piburn and Charlene Temple's Interview with His Holiness the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala, India
NOTE: HHDL = His Holiness the XIV Dalai Lama, SP = Sidney Piburn, CT = Charlene Temple (Macdowell)
[Audio File 1978 1215a Begins]
[few seconds of noises; talking begins at 0:00:34.8.]
SP: I took many photographs, over five hundred. Those were just a few of the ones that I liked so I had little [HHDL: Hm.] prints made.
[12¾ second pause]
HHDL: Uh-hm, hm.
CT: I didn't know if you had a tape recorder but these are some excerpts from classical music, [HHDL: Hm.] Western classical music.
HHDL: Uh-hm.
CT: Some of them in our group we listen to before we meditate because they're very reflective and some are spiritual. [SP simultaneously, faint: Mm, right.] I don't know if you have-- Do you have a tape recorder in-- If you have time. (SP laughs a bit)
HHDL: Thank you [one/two words inaudible]
SP: And we also have an invitation from the group that we belong to. And this is a--
Secretary (whispering): [possibly speaking Tibetan, few words inaudible]
HHDL: Uh-hm. [15¼ second pause] Mm. [short pause] [speaking Tibetan]
Secretary: Uh--
HHDL: No.
Secretary: It's in New York (then/is it)?
SP: Yes.
Secretary: New York State.
HHDL (simultaneously): Mm.
SP (faint): Uh-hm.
HHDL: (No/Now) sometimes [couple Tibetan words] probably I-- yeah. How to-- how to pronounce?
SP: Ithaca.
HHDL: Ithaca. Hm.
SP: It's-- that's where Cornell University is, [HHDL: Hm.] some [HHDL simultaneously: Uh-hm.] Tibetan students [HHDL simultaneously: Ah yes.] were there many years ago.
CT: It's about five hours from New York City.
HHDL: Mm. [short pause] How long since you established this-- [SP: Uh--] this society?
SP: The group started maybe ten years ago.
HHDL: Mm.
[11¾ second pause]
CT: Here's some photographs of the Center.
HHDL: Mm.
CT: It was built by the members themselves.
HHDL: It's in Japanese style.
SP: Yes, Japanese [HHDL simultaneously: Uh-hm.] gate. This is the view from the Center, there's a big lake down the hill [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] and it looks over the woods. This is the main building. In fact that's the only one you can see in that photograph. [short pause] That's some of the members.
HHDL: How many members?
SP: About 130.
HHDL: Mm.
SP: That's the main building again. It's log on the outside but it's very modern on the inside.
HHDL (simultaneously): Hm. It's very beautiful.
CT: Our teacher wanted it to be log [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] because it's much harder to [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] build a log cabin, he believes in hard work. (CT laughs a bit)
SP: He wanted everybody to work on it.
CT: To balance hard work with study.
HHDL: (Second) [one word inaudible]
SP: This is the inside or--
HHDL (simultaneously): Inside. This one?
SP: That's the temple and [HHDL simultaneously: Ah.] it's being built, it wasn't finished at the time.
HHDL: Hm.
SP: But it'll probably be finished when we return.
HHDL: Uh-hm.
SP: And, this is the guest house. When we have visitors they stay there.
CT: It's now finished.
HHDL (simultaneously): (This one?)
SP: This is our teacher, the [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] person who organized the Center.
CT: Anthony Damiani.
HHDL: Uh-hm. This one who?
SP: This is his teacher, [HHDL simultaneously: Ohh.] Paul Brunton who spent many years in India.
HHDL: Hm.
SP: And--
CT: He's written--
[tape break]
HHDL: Hm.
SP: --what day classes are discussed or they discuss relationships of ideas from one tradition to another, and--
HHDL: Very good. Very interesting.
SP (simultaneously): And there's-- there's [one/two inaudible CT words simultaneous with SP] arguments back and forth. (SP laughing)
CT: Yeah.
HHDL (simultaneously): Uh-hm.
CT: People don't live there, they come after they work. There are maybe four monks who live there. But our teacher's interest is to--
SP (faint): (Right.) (SP and HHDL laugh)
CT: Yeah, differentiate just-- (bit more laughter) [HHDL: Mm.] Our teacher's interest is to synthesize all of the philosophies and to find the one Truth, so we try to study all to be familiar [HHDL simultaneously: Hm.] with them.
SP: He tries [HHDL simultaneously: Very good.] to see how--
Secretary (faint): Very good.
HHDL: Hm.
Secretary: Is it [couple words inaudible]
HHDL (simultaneously): Some connection with Theosophy Society?
SP: No, not exactly.
HHDL: Huh. The idea is same I think.
SP: Similar. [HHDL: Mm.] Similar. [tape break] --(don't) have the opportunity to travel and see traditions first hand and meet spiritual teachers.
HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]
Secretary: His Holiness is--
HHDL: Appreciate here.
Secretary: His Holiness very much appreciates the idea behind the Center to which you belong.
HHDL (simultaneously): Mm. It's very good. Very important to not-- to know the various different teaching and different philosophy. If you look from wider, sorry--
Secretary: (Very) from a wider perspective.
HHDL: Mm. All these different teachings, they I think one aim, one single aim--to help [one/two Tibetan words] human mind, to solve human problem. So more or less the same goal. [short pause] So, this very good. And that [speaking Tibetan]
Secretary: And--
HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]
Secretary: And, His Holiness says thank you also for the invitation and, if the opportunity does arise His Holiness would certainly be interested to pay a visit.
HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]
Secretary: And, His Holiness feels that the idea behind the Center seems to be that you're quite open to other faiths.
HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]
Secretary: No, without making too much of a distinction with different faiths.
HHDL: Mm. That's good I think. [speaking Tibetan] non-sectarian [one/two Tibetan words] (SP laughs) Ah. Accept every-- every teaching, every good point. And argue with every teaching. (SP and HHDL laugh)
CT/S(?) (amidst laughter): But I think--
CT (faint): Our tea--
HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]
Secretary: His Holiness says without being too biased.
HHDL: Mm. (SP laughs)
SP (faint): Yes.
HHDL: Very good. [tape break] Sixth mind, continuation of fifth. [tape break] Continuation of sixth mind is always (going to be) there, whether you are seeing or not, whether you are--I'm sorry--awake or not. The sixth-- sixth mind is always there.
SP (faint): Always there.
HHDL: But within the sixth mind there are different level.
Secretary (faint whisper): (Levels.)
HHDL: At the moment, we are using one kind of sixth mind.
SP (very faint): Yes.
HHDL: When we are sleeping, different kind of sixth mind. Still more subtle, subtle.
Secretary (faint): Subtle.
SP (simultaneously, faint): Subtle, yes.
HHDL (simultaneously): Mm. Then when we faint, still deeper. When we dying, deepest sixth consciousness is working.
SP (faint whisper): Yes.
HHDL: So like that. So sixth con-- sixth consciousness is from previous life to this life, to this life next life. Always [speaking Tibetan]
Secretary: They continue.
HHDL: (Or) continue.
SP (simultaneously): Uh-hm. Is this--
HHDL: There's no-- so no beginning. There's no end. There will be no end. [couple Tibetan words] no end.
SP (faint): To this consciousness.
HHDL: (There'll be doubt.) So that sixth consciousness, sixth mind. And within the sixth mind, not this you see rough sixth mind but deepest sixth mind, usually we call the (seed/seat) of Buddha. Now that consciousness will go to the Buddhahood. This rough consciousness not go.
SP: So one more question, I'll skip these. This is a general question [HHDL: Mm.] many people have (that's/it's)-- and, a lot of people just ask, what qualities are the most important to develop for this spiritual quest.
[short pause]
HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]
Secretary: His Holiness says techniques may vary.
HHDL: Some peop-- now for example, some people, the teaching of death more helpful. Some people teaching of karma, karma theory, is more sort of-- more suitable. Some people the teaching of, you see, these psychology thing may be suitable. For certain people, the teaching of some sort of, you see, relativity theory, this pratityasamutpada theory.
SP: Yes.
HHDL: Relative sort of-- relativity.
SP (simultaneously, faint): (Relativity.) Right.
HHDL: The sunya theory more suitable. (Not/Now) for beginner.
SP (faint): Uh-hm.
HHDL: Now for long run, so all these teaching must be sort of practice.
SP (faint): Practice.
HHDL: And combine.
SP (faint): Uh-hm.
HHDL: Each teaching has some sort of [couple Tibetan words] some sort of [Secretary, very faint: Special.] special [Secretary, very faint: Quality.] quality. And of course some people the teaching of God, teaching of God [couple Tibetan words] God teaching, God, theory of God.
Secretary (faint): (Theory/The)-- the acceptance of God.
HHDL: Mm.
Secretary (very faint): Uh-hm.
HHDL: Almighty. I think some people it-- [tape break] So you see there are many variety. But essence usually-- and I always-- I'm sorry-- say-- say and feel (a/that) kindness, harmony, open heart, respect each other, helping as much as-- less selfish. Share other people's suffering. More concern other people's suffering and problem. That's the essence. [short pause] Now in order to achieve these quality, you see, now that, as I mentioned, you see there are variety, various [one/two Tibetan words]
Secretary: Various types.
HHDL: Various types of teaching [Secretary, very faint: Teaching.] method. And we must have the-- these quality. And these truth and-- As a Christian [speaking Tibetan] Christian says the [couple Tibetan words] brotherhood [one/two Tibetan words]
Secretary (faint): [one Tibetan word]
HHDL: Brotherhood, serving man-- mankind. Very good. I think some of these, you see, great Christ-- Christian people who sacrifice their own life and their own, how to-- private happiness or-- I'm sorry.
Secretary (faint): [speaking Tibetan]
HHDL (simultaneously): [one/two Tibetan words] Life.
Secretary: Sacrifices, [HHDL simultaneously: (Oh/Mm).] personal sacrifices.
SP (faint): Uh-hm.
HHDL: To other people's-- [S, faint: (Right.)] sake of other people's benefit, I think mainly due to (their/they) believing in God, serving God.
SP (faint): Uh-hm.
HHDL: It's [couple Tibetan words] they-- (no), it-- Actually serving God [couple English or Tibetan words, unclear] (in serving) [one/two Tibetan words] I think human-- human brother.
Secretary (faint): Human being's life.
HHDL: Very nice. Now here as a Buddhist, the teaching of-- oh right from the beginning, very much emphasis on the kindness, compassion. Bodhicitta, you see.
SP: Yes.
HHDL: The very purpose of [couple Tibetan words] desire to enlightened Buddhahood is sake for others.
Secretary (faint): (Really) for the sake of others.
HHDL: Not selfish motive. So these are very good teaching.
SP: So, these are the most crucial for everyday practice, [HHDL: Yes.] to remember these qualities and--
HHDL: And implement.
SP: And implement according to your--
HHDL (simultaneously): Mm. In daily life, less selfish, less anger. (SP laughs) Isn't it? (HHDL laughs, laughter) More patience for-- I'm sorry-- for oneself, more contentment. [short pause] Yes these are the-- Whether you believe God or not, whether believe-- you-- whether you believe next [one/two Tibetan words] life or reincarnation, doesn't matter. This very life, you see, exist. We remain as real brother. If we lead right type of life, whether you accept next life or not, naturally affect next life. [short pause] So this I always feel and I myself also practice as much as possible. Like that.
[Audio File 1978 1215a Ends]
1978 12/15a V11a: EVENT: : Sidney Piburn & Charlene Temple's Interview with His Holiness the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala, India. Copyright 2021 Wisdom's Goldenrod p. ii