DIAGRAMS FOR 1980 0130a
Class
Wednesday, January 30th, 1980
Verbatim, unedited transcriptClick the series name to view more
CLASS at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY
with Anthony Damiani (AD)
January 30a, 1980
PB BOOKS; WISDOM OF THE OVERSELF;
"THE WORLD-MIND"
TOPIC: PB Books
SUBJECT: Wisdom of the Overself
SUBSUBJECTS: "The World-Mind," Cosmic Soul, Cosmology, Evolution
CONTENTS:
NO MATTER HOW MANY SUNS THERE ARE, COSMIC SOUL IS THE PRINCIPLE OF ALL OF THEM, THE ONE SOUL OF WHICH ALL THESE SUNS ARE EXEMPLIFICATIONS
THE IMMEDIATE PURPOSE OF THE SUN'S MANIFESTATION OF THE COSMOS IS THAT THE CREATURES WITHIN IT WILL ULTIMATELY REALIZE THEMSELVES
WHEN THE COSMIC SOUL WITHDRAWS THE UNIVERSE, THERE IS A PERIOD OF NON-MANIFESTATION
THE KARMIC IMPRESSIONS REFER TO INDIVIDUAL THINGS, OR ENTITIES, IN THE UNIVERSE, AND THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IN EXISTENCE
EVERYTHING WITHIN THE UNIVERSE IS SELF-BEGOTTEN, AND THE UNIVERSE IS THE TOTALITY OF THESE SELF-BEGOTTEN ENTITIES INTERACTING WITH EACH OTHER
THE COSMIC SOUL DOES NOT MAKE INDIVIDUAL THINGS, RATHER IT MAKES AN ENVIRONMENT FOR THEM TO FLOURISH IN
INSOFAR THAT WE ARE PERPETUALLY EXISTENT ENTITIES, WE ARE LAWGIVERS TO OURSELVES; WE ARE THE JUDGES OF OUR FATE
THE COSMIC SOUL GIVES EACH ENTITY THE LIFE-FORCE, OR POWER, TO SELF-ACTUALIZE
THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS OF COSMIC SOUL: (1) THE UNINTERRUPTED LIFE OF THE INFINITE SERIES OF UNIVERSES AND (2) THE LIFE OF A PARTICULAR UNIVERSE
THE COSMIC SOUL HAS NO PURPOSE TO FULFIL FOR ITS OWN BENEFIT, BUT THE ENVIRONMENT IT PROVIDES MAKES THE EVOLUTION OF ENTITIES WITHIN THE UNIVERSE POSSIBLE
THE PURPOSE OF EACH CREATURE'S EXISTENCE IS TO REALIZE ITS OWN ESSENCE (THE ETERNAL OVERSELF CONSCIOUSNESS), NOT THE ESSENCE OF THE COSMIC SOUL
THE TENTH AND ELEVENTH HOUSES, THE SYSTEM OF NATURE, IS THE TOTALITY OF THE GODS WORKING TOGETHER TO PRODUCE A COSMOS, THE LAST OF THE GODS BEFORE MANIFESTATION BEGINS
BECAUSE THE LIFE-FORCE IN US WANTS TO GET BACK TO THE COSMIC SOUL, IT WILL DRIVE US THROUGH THE SEVEN PLANES OF EXISTENCE—THUS EVOLUTION IS GUARANTEED
THE LIGHT THAT IS GIVEN BY THE OVERSELF TO THE BODY DEVELOPS AND LEARNS THROUGH THE PSYCHE IT PRESIDES OVER
HOW TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN INDIVIDUAL TIME AND COSMIC TIME AND HOW ARE THEY RELATED TO EACH OTHER?
BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:
Paul Brunton, The Wisdom of the Overself
Plotinus, The Enneads (MacKenna translation, 4th ed.)
Plato, Republic
PLOTINUS QUOTES READ OR REFERENCED: IV.4.10, V.1.3, V.2.2
DIAGRAMS appended to this transcript:
FIGURE IMG_2202-Posterboard Metaphysical Chart.
FIGURE 1980 0130a-2-AB. Empyrean, Three Ethereal Worlds, Upper Solar World, Three Material Worlds mapped onto Metaphysical Chart.
FIGURE 1980 0130a-3-AB. Divided Line.
FIGURE IMG_2319 copy. Proclus Chart (excerpt).
[Transcriber note: [diagram] means the speaker is referencing a diagram as he or she is speaking. If someone is drawing or writing, with audible sounds of chalk on a blackboard, I indicate this by [drawing] or [writing].]
NOTES:
This is 1980 01/30a, PB Books; Wisdom of the Overself Class, and the first entry associated with this date. 1980 01/30b = Hinduism; Samkhya.
Wednesday night class, part of Wisdom series 1979-1980.
TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT 2019; reformatted by JRM & JF 2019-2020, with TOC/Subheads by JRM. In 2023, IT updates prefatory matter, footer, and audio file name, fixes Book List, adds Plotinus quotes section, adds new notes within transcript, fixes errors/typos, adds four diagrams and references within transcript to these diagrams. In 2024, MW alters Subheads to make more accurate. Archival verbatim transcript – V14.1a.
AUDIO FILES: 1980 0130a, 1980 0130b. [Note: "Tape" and "Side" refer to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files.]
1980 01/30a at Wisdom's Goldenrod
PB Books; Wisdom of the Overself; "The World-Mind"
Archival verbatim transcript
[Audio File 1980 0130a Begins]
[noises, shuffling about, faint background student talking; AS starts to talk at 0:00:23.2]
AS: On top of 311?
AD: You say we did this here?
AS: We did it. I think we've discussed it, yeah.
S: But I never did.
AD: Well let's start there. "These problems…"
AS (simultaneously, faint): (His/Whose) reasoning--
[Transcriber note: I am using The Wisdom of the Overself by Paul Brunton, Rider and Company, London, 1943.]
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 184, AS reading]: "These problems are intractable…"
AS: This is the bottom of 310. I don't know what paragraph it is.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 184, AS reading]: "These problems are intractable unless we first understand that the universe is not brought into existence, that it is not created, and that it arises because it must. The World-Mind must obey the everlasting law of its own being and periodically manifest or reabsorb the world-image. What is this inner necessity which so compels it to do so? It is karma, the ultimate and eternal law governing the perpetual movement of its own activity and consequently governing the rhythm of universal existence and non-existence. This however is not a law set up from outside, for there is nothing outside World-Mind. Its inner necessity is beginningless and endless because the World-Mind itself is a beginningless and endless force. Hence the question why the world was brought into existence is one which we put only so long as we do not know what the world really is. When we understand that it arises in obedience to the general law of karma, that it is a perpetual self-reproduction appearing intermittently in cosmic cycles, [AS adds: and] that it has never had a beginning or will ever have an ending, we see that there can be no ultimate purpose in it but only an immediate one."
[9 second pause]
AD: I think we spoke about it a little bit.
S (faint): Uh-hm.
S (faint): Yeah.
[10¾ second pause]
AD: [aside] That's alright, you can open it. So, get any ideas in the week that's gone by? [17¾ second pause] Well at least you remember what we said about it?
[10 second pause]
PD: How about a question?
AD: Good. Anything right now. (laughter)
NO MATTER HOW MANY SUNS THERE ARE, COSMIC SOUL IS THE PRINCIPLE OF ALL OF THEM, THE ONE SOUL OF WHICH ALL THESE SUNS ARE EXEMPLIFICATIONS
PD: He speaks of karma here as the-- governing the rhythm of universal existence, not cosmic existence. And this-- this seems to be a kind of halfway between saying the World-Mind's cosmic soul and the World-Mind's the Intellectual-Principle.
[short pause]
AD: Would you repeat that again, uh--
PD: Well he s-- [MB simultaneously: Paul.] he [S simultaneously: Paul.] speaks [MB simultaneously: Paul.] of [AD: Paul.] karma--
S (faint): Whatever.
AD: I never could get them straight. (AD laughing, bit of laughter)
PD: He speaks of karma as governing universal existence, not just cosmic existence. And he speaks of this as the law of the World-Mind itself. Now, if we say that it's just cosmic soul, it's an inapplicable framework to speak of the cosmic soul governing all existences. It's just governing its own sphere.
AD: Yes.
PD: So the-- his concept of World-Mind here seems to include something of both the Intellectual quadrant [Note: Second quadrant; see FIGURE IMG_2202-Posterboard Metaphysical Chart appended to this transcript.] as well as cosmic soul.
AD: And, you got Richard to agree with that?
S (faint): Yeah.
PD: I don't think he's here, is he?
S (very faint): Yeah.
S: There he is.
S (very faint): Uh-hm.
S (very faint): (Forgot him.)
S (very faint): Forgot him.
RG (faint): I see your thoughts and--
S (very faint): You must have (improved).
PD: Well it's-- it's a question, you know, I'm not getting in the middle of anything. (laughter)
S (amidst laughter): Again.
RG: Oh, come on.
PD: He speaks of karma here as governing universal existence. And this-- this is the law of the World-Mind itself. And, if we say the World-Mind is cosmic soul, then we can't speak of the World-Mind governing universal existence, you can only speak of it as governing cosmic existence. So in this case the World-Mind seemed to be referring to the Intellectual-Principle at least in part as well as cosmic soul.
[short pause]
JC: Well not necessarily.
AD: Yeah. (bit of laughter)
JC: You could say that it means the cosmic soul periodically puts forth the gross universe.
PD: But he says universal existence, he doesn't say [JG simultaneously: What--] gross universe.
JG: What do you understand by universal existence?
JC (simultaneously): Well, the universal existence--
PD (simultaneously): All possible existences that could exist in any conceivable or inconceivable manner. (laughter)
AD: All possible--
JC: What--
AD: All possible universes, right?
S (faint): Yeah, exactly.
PD (simultaneously): Correct.
S (faint): That's all (of them).
S: [couple/three words inaudible]
[short pause]
JC: I mean why couldn't the cosmic soul be an eternal being also, [PD: It is.] perpetually, but perpetually eternal instead of absolutely eternal?
PD: I think it is.
JC: So that that law could govern the cosmic soul (then/there) too.
PD (simultaneously): In its own sphere of cosmic manifestation, not in universal manifestation.
JC: Well universal existence, I mean you could interpret that according to your-- you know, your own association.
PD: Well I'm just putting the two words together, universal--
JC: You mean the whole manifested universe.
PD: Every sphere, not leaving anything out. I'm not saying it's just this Solar Logos, which is I think what this-- the cosmic soul would have to be restricted to.
JG: But you left out the first half of that sentence. There are two things, the--
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 184, JG reading]: "…karma, the [JG reads: is an] ultimate and eternal law governing the perpetual movement of its own activity…"
JG: And with that also the universal existences.
PD: But the "it" that it's referring to is the World-Mind there. It's in the sentence before.
JG: No you couldn't [S simultaneously: No.] possibly refer to--
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 184, PD reading]: "The World-Mind must obey the everlasting law of its own being and periodically manifest or reabsorb the world-image."
AS: So what is that right there Paul?
PD: That's the next question Avery, what is--
AS (simultaneously): No, well stop right there, the World-Mind.
PD (simultaneously): What is this inner necessity which so compels it to do so?
AS: No, what is the World-Mind that must obey the everlasting law of its own being when it manifests the universe?
PD: There it seems to refer to the cosmic soul.
AS: Yeah, ok.
PD: Right, and that's the point I was making, Avery.
AS: Ok.
PD: That it's a sliding scale it appears here.
AS: Well, I don't see why the-- but--
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 184, PD reading (simultaneously with AS above)]: "It is karma, the ultimate and eternal law governing the perpetual movement of its own activity and consequently governing the rhythm of universal existence and non-existence. [S, faint: Uh-hm.] This [however] is not a law set up from outside [PD adds: the World-Mind], for there is nothing outside World-Mind. [AS, faint: Uh-hm.] Its inner necessity is beginningless and endless…"
AS: I see the way you were talking about it. You're saying-- you're saying that the "its" here, the karma, the ultimate eternal law governing the perpetual movement, that whole sentence there refers not to the World-Soul or the World-Mind but to this thing he's calling karma?
PD: To this universal law, yeah.
AS: And you're conceiving that as being something interior to the World-Soul?
PD: Or some-- some aspect of the Intellectual-Principle.
AS: Which works through the World-Soul then.
PD: Right, the World-Soul is subject to that law.
AD: Well, you want me to give you my explanation Paul? When you think of the Sun as the soul of this universe, alright, and if you take an indefinite plurality of solar systems that could possibly exist, you know, as many as you want, and each one has its own Sun and each Sun of each respective universe we would call the cosmic soul in that universe. Now, if let's say you have a hundred thousand solar systems and each has its own Sun, by cosmic soul I mean precisely that, that there's one soul of which all these hundred thousand Suns are examples or exemplifications of. So cosmic soul would include all these Suns, each one would exemplify the soul.
PD: You're generalizing the concept of cosmic soul.
AD: Yeah. Yeah I'm generalizing, alright. And the-- the Sun, as I mentioned to you, the Sun that you see existing in your solar system, and which is the soul of your solar system, the one you happen to inhabit, and the same for many other solar systems, the-- what we mean by cosmic soul is the principle of all those Suns. That would be cosmic soul. And that that cosmic soul must conform to the law of its own being.
PD: In that-- in that framework you're just speaking of this cosmic soul as being the principle of universal manifestation.
[Note: See FIGURE 1980 0130a-2-AB, Empyrean, Three Ethereal Worlds, Upper Solar World, Three Material Worlds mapped onto Metaphysical Chart, appended to this transcript for the following.]
AD: Yeah. And if I tried-- if I tried with a diagram maybe, I don't know if I'll succeed but, if I did a diagram, [drawing] let's say-- For s-- for some of you who u-- who might find a diagram useful. We put over here for instance the sublunary world, over here the planetary system, ok, and over here the inerratic system, the inerratic stars [diagram], ok? Now, over here we would put the cosmic soul [diagram], ok? Now you can imagine that there are many many solar systems, many of them, alright. But it is this Sun here [diagram], not the Suns of individual solar system, that is the soul of the universe. You follow that? This Sun here will also be [drawing] the light that shines through let's say the inerratic sphere, this-- the fixed stars. This Sun here will shine through the planetary systems. So this is-- you could think of this as one cosmic soul, alright, but you could ima-- you could imagine n + 1 ['n' plus one] number of solar systems. So when I say cosmic soul of the universe, don't think of the physical, you know, exemplification of that which would only be one.
Just like for instance when I say there's a dog and there's another dog and there's another dog, alright, so I got three individual dogs in front of me. And each dog totally and completely exemplifies the Idea of a dog. There's nothing missing, alright, as Idea of the dog in each and every dog. He's complete. He's got all the dog qualities he needs in order to be a dog. (bit of laughter) Ok? Now-- Then I-- then I'll speak and I say but the Idea of the dog, alright, is not one, two, or three dogs or four or five or ten or a thousand or a million. The Idea of the dog is different than all those dogs which exemplify the Idea of a dog.
In the same way, all these Suns in a sense are different from the cosmic soul, because they exemplify the cosmic soul. But I could have n+1 cosmic solar systems, [drawing] alright, each-- each Sun, of each solar system, including even let's say a binary solar system where you have two Suns revolving around each other, alright, each one of them, so to speak, will exemplify this Idea of the cosmic soul. And when he speaks about-- when he speaks about the-- that this must-- this cosmic soul must manifest the universe according to a law of its own being, I don't have to go to the World-Mind because I can't conceive of the World-Mind manifesting something and then withdrawing something, manifesting, withdrawing, because that would not be the Intellectual-Principle. The Intellectual-Principle or the World-Mind is eternally in stasis, eternally in repose. Its understanding is in all-- is an understanding that's fixed for all time. That doesn't alter, alright, and there wouldn't be anything coming in and going out.
PD: But conceiving of the Intellectual-Principle as purely static, isn't that limiting?
AD: That's not static. That's not static.
S: We say we're poised more than static maybe.
AD: If for instance we use an example of a man who can in his intellectual omnipotence, alright, let's say he conceives a whole novel in his mind, alright, the relationship of all the parts to every other part and the beginning and how it's going to end and everything that is the novel, alright, and he holds it in contemplation, that's not static. That's an ex-- that's an ultimate-- an ultimate dynamism. It's eternally what it is.
MB: When you s-- when PB speaks in this paragraph about the-- the law of karma as being the inner nature of the World-Soul, and then he says that the law of karma is an eternal law, is he speaking about a principle that's entirely within the World-Soul or does the law of karma ask that-- also trace its origin to the Intellectual-Principle?
AD: What was the law of karma?
MB: Well we s--
AD (simultaneously): Do you remember?
MB: We said that--
AS (simultaneously): The law of every individual's own continuity.
AD: Remember?
MB: You mean the twofold law, the--
AD: Yeah.
AS (simultaneously): But the general one.
MB: The general one.
AD (simultaneously): The general law of karma. [MB: Uh-hm.] You want to turn back to that section and read it?
AS: Adjusts effect to cause.
THE IMMEDIATE PURPOSE OF THE SUN'S MANIFESTATION OF THE COSMOS IS THAT THE CREATURES WITHIN IT WILL ULTIMATELY REALIZE THEMSELVES
[21½ second pause, flipping of pages]
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The Birth of the Universe," p. 29, RG reading]: "…the law of every individual entity's own continuity. Whether it be a planet or a protoplasm it has to inherit the characteristics of its own previous existence and thus adjust effect to cause."
AD: Now suppose we apply that definition to let's say a Sun. Le-- take an easy example-- easier one first. You know, the Sun of our system, alright. Go ahead, try. Apply that definition to the Sun of our solar system. And then after that we can take that definition and apply it to the cosmic soul, which means the soul of the universe entire.
S (faint): Read it one more time?
S (very faint): Uh-hm, yeah.
AD: Would that-- would that fit, so to speak?
PD: Well in that the Sun continues to be the Sun it fits. In that any existing being maintains its continuity of existing, you would say it fits.
AD: And by adjusting the effects to the causes, alright, wouldn't this fit perfectly the cosmic Sun?
PD: Well it seems to fit anything that's in existence.
AD: And what-- let me put it this way then. Ultimately as far as we're concerned, given a given universe, what is the most patent or the most important item of existence would be the Sun of that universe. So that would set up like the type or the model that everything else follows. And if we see it in the Sun, alright, we'll see it in a bat, we'll see it in a snake, we'll see it in a dog, a tree. In other words, the law of continuity must-- it must be best exemplified in the Sun itself. [student assents, very faint] And that in a sense we could see that when we speak about what I had mentioned at one time that the precession of the equinoxes is the Sun's recoll-- way of memorizing everything that goes on within the universe, within its universe. So that would be its memory you might say, alright. And through that it re-- it holds on to all the activity, it memorizes all the activity that goes on in the universe. When that universe is withdrawn by the Sun back into itself, we could say that it has a memory of everything that occurred within the universe and when it gets projected out that memory is now actualized, alright. So this weaving or this breathing, you know, in and out would have to imply that the universe may, may not evolve, let's say it's evolving, the Sun is breathing out the universe, taking it back in, making the necessary adjustments, the next manifestation, those things that need adjusting get adjusting, alright, so that there's this constant interplay of all the items, the plurality of objects within that universe until the items within it find-- find what, you know, he referred to as the immediate purpose of its manifestation, which would be that the creatures within it would realize themselves. The immediate purpose, he says they-- that the-- it does have an immediate purpose but has no ultimate purpose. So the immediate purpose of the Sun's manifestation of the cosmos is that the creatures within it will ultimately realize themselves, that's its immediate purpose. Ultimate purpose it can hang on because this process goes on forever. So I could read it that way and it makes a lot of sense to me.
WHEN THE COSMIC SOUL WITHDRAWS THE UNIVERSE, THERE IS A PERIOD OF NON-MANIFESTATION
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 184, AD reading]: "…the universe is not brought into existence, [that] it is not created, and that it arises because it must. The World-Mind [AD reads: World-Soul] must obey the everlasting law of its own being and periodically manifest or reabsorb the world-image. What is this inner necessity which so compels it to do so? It is karma, the ultimate and eternal law governing the perpetual movement of its own activity and [consequently] governing the rhythm of universal existence and non-existence."
AD: Manifestation and non-manifestation.
RG: What does the non-manifestation there mean?
AD: Well, I think you know that, when it withdraws the universe it would be a period of non-manifestation.
RG: But, [AD simultaneously: What--] when we speak of non-existence here, I mean, or existence it seems that they're-- that doesn't imply-- um-- non-existence would seem to imply something other than the possibility of existence.
AD: Uh-- Well, you have to go on Richard, I don't follow you yet.
RG: In other words I will use the terms possibilities of manifestation or the possibilities of non-manifestation. If what's been talked about here also governs possibilities of non-manifestation, it would seem to transcend the sphere of the cosmic soul.
[short pause]
AD: I still don't follow you.
RG: The content of the cosmic soul is what is to be manifested.
AD: Yeah.
RG: But there are ideas that are not to be manifested. There (might/would) be no, you know, whatever, not manifest possibilities, possibilities that don't actualize in-- within a universe.
AD: Oh I see what you're referring to, go ahead.
RG: And I don't know-- I don't know here if he means that or if he means that the manifestation withdraws into the cosmic soul and that's what he means by non-existence or whether he means possibilities of non-manifestation.
AD: No I don't think he's referring to that here.
RG: I didn't think he was.
[short pause]
AS: Yeah, well, Richard I mean, here he's speaking about the existence and non-existence of the universe. Something has existed and then is withdrawn. That Guenon thing seemed to speak about unmanifestable. And that seemed way beyond this realm. 'Cause he was speaking about potent-- things which were actually-- he said they were principles of non-manifestation which were unmanifestable, period, and didn't-- never did manifest or couldn't manifest.
RG: Right.
AS: And here he seems to be speaking about the universe which does exist and then is withdrawn. He speaks about the rhythm of existence and non-existence.
S (very faint): Uh-hm.
BS/RG(?): It seems though, yeah.
[short pause]
AD: And I would say, Paul, that the next sentence could be readily applied to a cosmic soul.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 184, AD reading]: "Its inner necessity is beginningless and endless because [the] World-Mind [AD reads: cosmic soul] itself is [a] beginningless and endless force."
PD: Well the-- the-- the question was referring to the previous sentence. The activity of the World-Mind is governing the rhythm of universal existence and non-existence.
[12½ second pause]
AD: Again?
PD: No, my original question was referring to the previous sentence where he speaks of [S, very faint: (No/Oh).] [AD simultaneously: Oh, ok.] the rhythm of universal existence and the World-Soul's-- the cosmic soul's--
AD (simultaneously): Yeah but you see in substituting cosmic soul or World-Soul, I think, I think that there's a consistency and a coherence all the way through. [student assents, very faint] So the question why was the world brought into existence can only arise if one doesn't understand the nature of the cosmic soul.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 184, AD reading]: "When we understand that it arises in obedience to the general law of karma…"
AD: That is, that the Sun has to go on being what it is.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 184, AD reading]: "…a perpetual self-reproduction appearing intermittently in cosmic cycles, that it [has] never had a beginning or will ever have an ending, we see that there can be no ultimate purpose…"
AD: Alright. And human thinking is besieged by the fact that everything must have a purpose, a final teleology is always invoked to explain things. But he's saying that you can't u-- you can't use that here. Go ahead, uh--
S: Well the way you put it-- or it sounds like the law of karma is a dictate to the cosmic soul, and I'm confused as to whether or not the law of karma is essential to the cosmic soul or a dictate to the cosmic soul. Does it imply-- does the law of karma ultimately abide in some form in the Intellectual-Principle, that's in a kind of poise that is non-(manifestable)? [short pause] Or-- and another way of putting the question is if (you/it) could just be, how could it arise as a principle of cosmic soul without proceeding first through the Intellectual-Principle in some other form? Well, no, that's a bad way of putting it. [12¼ second pause] Is my question clear?
AD: No.
S (faint): Oh.
S (very faint): Work on this [one word inaudible]
S (simultaneously): Well, I understand the reason for the law and that there should be a regulation of that which is manifest so that an equilibrium can be reached. And it says in this paragraph that it's a law of the cosmic soul. But my question is, is that law an essence of the cosmic soul or a dictate to the cosmic soul from the Intellectual-Principle? Where does the-- where does the real law of karma arise? I understand its functioning manifestation but does it have a non-functioning arisal? And how did it get to the cosmic soul, it can't arise there.
RG (faint): (Why not?)
S: Because if it was not in the Intellectual-Principle, it would lend a kind of greatness to the cosmic soul that superseded the Intellectual-Principle.
RG: No, not superseded it, merely executed it through power. If you talk about karma as power, then you speak of it-- you could speak of it as the power of the cosmic soul. It's manifest.
S: No I would just have a hard time understanding any-- well in a mathematical way, any content in a subset that wasn't included in-- in the set in which the subset was a part of. And I see the cosmic soul as being a-- a subset of the Intellectual-Principle and maybe I shouldn't do that.
AD/S(?) (very faint): It's [one word inaudible] the Intellectual-Principle.
S (simultaneously, faint): Doesn't mention it again.
S (very faint): Yeah.
[9¼ second pause]
S: Yeah just the one point that confuses me about the paragraph is that it says it's [AD simultaneously: I-- I really can't--] a law of the cosmic soul, that one comment.
AS: Yeah, maybe this isn't the right way to look at it but, even if you do want to push it back and say well the World-Soul originates from the Intellectual-Principle or is grounded in that, [S, faint: Right.] still you could say that it is intrinsic to the World-Soul to manifest the universe because the World-Soul then could be seen as the aspect of the Intellectual-Principle that is responsible for manifesting the world. [S, faint: Ok, that is (one word inaudible)] In other words, it's the tot-- you know, he says somewhere in Plotinus it's the total-- the-- the soul is the total of that activity emanating from the Intellectual-Principle towards the production of a cosmos. [Note: Plotinus, V.1.3, third para.] So you're-- you would be saying well there's the World-Soul, but then there's this life or this principle of the World-Soul back in the Intellectual-Principle. But you could-- if you put them together you could say well the World-Soul is the principle of manifestation that originates from the Intellectual-Principle. No doubt everything in manifestation will proceed from there but that the World-Soul here is that principle which does manifest the cosmos. I mean even if you say it comes from the Intellectual-Principle, well, that's still ok. It is that aspect of Being that manifests cosmos.
MB: You can't view it as a mathematical--
AS (simultaneously): It's a total outpouring of its life.
MB: You can't view it as a mathematical subset because that's a quantitative idea where you would say that everything that's in the World-Soul exists in the same exact way in the Intellectual-Principle and I don't think that would be appropriate. I mean--
AS: Oh yeah, the other point was that the Intellectual-Principle is not-- there's nothing there that's in motion.
RG: Right. And if nothing's in motion you can't speak about the governing of an appearance and a non-appearance. Hence you would have to apply the [student assents] [AS simultaneously: To the World-Soul.] idea of karma to soul [AS simultaneously: Yeah.] because soul is motion.
AS: Yeah.
AD (very faint): Alright.
AS: Adjusting effects to cause and so on, I--
RG: Yeah, I don't see, if everything in the Intellectual-Principle is fully accomplished how you could speak of the movement in and out or the governing of that.
MB: Well I guess like--
AS (faint): Yeah well--
MB: I had similar question I thought when I asked about whether the law of karma could come from there because if you consider the law of karma-- if you consider the cosmic soul itself as governed by the law of karma then can you place that law of karma entirely intrinsic to the cosmic soul where PB says it's part of the cosmic soul's [AS simultaneously: But it's--] own nature.
AS: Yeah, why not.
MB (simultaneously): Or-- or can-- or do you say, well there's-- the cosmic soul is subject to the Ideas or is in some way governed by a principle higher than itself and could you apply the term 'karma' there.
S: It is governed by. That's the key. Is governed by.
AS: By its own nature though.
S: Well, ok, I'll--
PD/S(?) (simultaneously): By Idea(s).
S (very faint): Yeah, ok.
MB: I mean I could-- I could see where you could say that when you use the term 'karma', that applies to something entirely within the cosmic soul and that even though the cosmic soul is governed by it, it could still be within its own nature. That's still a possibility, that its own nature is set up in such a way that karma operates in that way within the cosmic soul and the cosmic soul itself is subjected to-- to its own law.
[17¾ second pause]
THE KARMIC IMPRESSIONS REFER TO INDIVIDUAL THINGS, OR ENTITIES, IN THE UNIVERSE, AND THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IN EXISTENCE
AD: Well, why don't you proceed on the next page, "Such questions…"
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," pp. 184-185, AS reading]: "Such questions are based on the untenable attitude of the questioner in taking for granted (a) that sudden creation of the universe in time is ultimately true, [AS adds: and] (b) that the universe was formed by an independent outside Creator. A universe formed on the basis of these two factors would naturally have purpose inherent in it. But there is no separate Creator. The collective karmic impressions rise of themselves within [AS adds: the] World-Mind. This is because there has never been a time when they did not exist for, although their forms may change…"
AS: I'm sorry, I didn't read that right.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AS reading]: "This is be…"
AD (simultaneously): That's alright, that's alright.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AS reading]: "This is [S simultaneously, faint: (Bless you/Go ahead).] because there has never been a time when they did not exist for, although their forms may change, they are as eternal as the World-Mind itself."
AD: Let's stop for a moment, alright?
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "The collective karmic impressions…"
AD: Beginning of that sentence again.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AS reading]: "The collective karmic impressions rise of themselves within World-Mind."
AD (simultaneously): Cosmic soul. Within cosmic soul.
AS (simultaneously): Cosmic soul.
AD: "This is because…"
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AS reading]: "This is because there has never been a time when they did not exist…"
AD: Now, what is he referring to here as never having been in existence whether actual or potential?
AS: Never having been out of existence. In existence? I'm sorry.
AD: Yeah.
S (very faint): Uh-hm.
S (faint): Right.
AD: He says here--
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "…there has [AD reads: there's] never been a time when they did not exist…"
AD: What's the "they" referring to?
JG: To collective karmic impressions.
RG (simultaneously): The collective karmic impressions.
AD: What are karmic impressions?
RG (faint): Good question.
[short pause]
AD: The entities that you applied your law of karma to.
JC: The individual minds that arise and take on [one word inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): In-- alright, individual things let's say, individual entities. So then what is he saying about them?
JC: That they could-- well--
AD: No, what is he saying right here?
S (faint): They always [one/two words inaudible]
AS (faint): They always [one/two words inaudible]
RG (simultaneously): [couple/three words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): They have always been.
S (faint): They've always been.
AD: They have always been in existence. Alright, read it again now.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AS reading]: "The collective karmic impressions…"
AD: Alright.
AS: Or things.
AD: Things, yeah, you, I--
AS: Look at these.
AD: The lion, the dog. Yeah, go ahead.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AS reading]: "The collective karmic impressions [AS reads: They] rise of themselves within World-Mind [AS reads: World-Soul]."
AD: You see what he's saying here? Well give it a good look. He says there's no outside Creator.
DB: But--
S: And error--
AD: And he's saying that you have always been around, although you change, you know, your forms change. You're not as ugly as you are now. (laughter)
S (amidst laughter): Wait.
AD: But you've always been around.
AS (faint): Thank heaven.
JC: Wouldn't (he/you) have to be referring to cen-- centers of consciousness, I mean a--
AD: I told you, forget the language, things, entities, you, I, the ant, the mosquito, the gnat, the fly, [JC: Ok.] a star, ok, entities, entelechies, any word [JC simultaneously, faint: (one/two words inaudible) entities.] you want, thing, ok. [S, faint: Uh-hm.] And he's saying here you've always been around.
S (faint): Right.
AD: Yeah. I-- I don't know what this sentence means.
RG: But if you-- if you were always around, would--
AD: You, I, and all these others, right? Collectively we constitute what is called the universe.
S: Uh-hm.
RG: Yes.
AD: Yeah.
RG: But if we did-- if we—
AD (simultaneously): And no one outside has anything to do with making this universe. So evidently we are responsible.
RG: Right.
MB/S(?) (laughing): That's kind of good, right?
S (very faint): What?
RG: But to speak about that entity who's always existed, to take on different forms it seems you'd have to establish that entity in the Intellectual-Principle, to speak of him as never changing.
S: [couple words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Oh he didn't say they never change.
AS (simultaneously): He didn't say they never change.
AD: We say-- [S, very faint: Yeah.] he says here, never out of existence. There's never been a time when they did not exist.
RG: Right.
AS: That's right.
S: Huh.
AS: He says their [PD simultaneously: The impressions.] forms may change.
RG: No the forms may change.
AD/S(?) (simultaneously): No.
AS: Right.
RG: Their forms may change but who is the "their" whose forms are changing?
AD (simultaneously): The thing, whatever it may be. You, I, etc, you know, all of us. Everything in the universe. Everything in the universe is guaranteed to go on being in the universe forever and ever.
RG: Ok but that means going on changing to be in the universe.
AD: Yeah.
RG: Because anything in the universe is changing.
AD (simultaneously): The next time I'll appear as an elephant, after that a mosquito.
RG: Ok, but that which is appearing, [AD: Yeah.] that essential thread which constitutes the essence of all those appearances--
AD: Uh-huh. Has--
S (faint): You said.
S: It's (the--)
AD (simultaneously): Has a kind of e-- eternality.
RG: Eternality.
AD: Yeah. Go on.
RG: But I've--
S: But (then) [one word inaudible]
RG (simultaneously): Seems to me you would have to put that in the Intellectual-Principle.
BS: But then they wouldn't be in existence.
RG: Well, that's--
AD: If I was in the Intellectual-Principle then there would be no change, no need for me to go around changing my costumes.
RG/S(?): Wait a minute, there'd have to (be--)
AD (simultaneously): I would eternally be the-- the essence that I am.
RG: But aren't you?
AD: Well not as long as I'm in the universe.
RG: Why can't you be-- could be both?
AD: Because essence is Being and existence is non-being.
PD: But that's what's not changing. It's the [AD simultaneously: What's not changing?] collective karmic impressions that aren't changing, not the entities. An entity is always a manifest-- manifestation of an impression. And that's what's the forms. The karmic impressions themselves you cannot speak of as what-- in our terminology as being in existence.
S: Hm.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "[The] collective karmic impressions rise of themselves within [AD adds: the] World-Mind."
PD (simultaneously): Are potentials for manifestation. The collective karmic impressions are potentialities for manifestation, they themselves are not manifested. And that's what's not changing.
AD: He says--
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "…karmic impressions rise of themselves within [AD adds: the] World-Mind."
PD: Right.
AD: Yeah.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "This is because there has never been a time when they did not exist…"
PD: The collective karmic impressions are out of space and time. So you cannot speak of them as in-- as existing [AS simultaneously: No, I--] for a period of time. It's like the essence that is going to constitute a dream is not in the dream time, it's totally beyond that framework of time and it [one word inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Yes but it's still within the dream mind.
PD: And is of the nature of the dream mind which is what he goes on to say in the next sentence.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, PD reading]: "Indeed, they are part of the World-Mind's nature."
AD: Alright, just try substituting "cosmic soul's nature" for a while and [PD simultaneously: I--] see if you get the same results.
PD: I can't click in that.
AD: You can't what?
JG: Click. (bit of laughter)
S: Yeah.
[student makes clicking sound]
S: Uh-hm.
S (very faint): (Right.)
AD: (Obviously) you're tied to words. Make a garland of words and I'll tie them-- put it around your neck and you could wear them as a necklace. (bit of laughter)
PD: I've already got one around. (bit of laughter)
AD: Go ahead Avery.
S (very faint): You could go.
AS: Well-- I-- maybe this is off but it seems like maybe pa-- I could say something like the example we used of these-- there's certain charts. Like every universe there will be a certain number of these individual minds or these charts. Now I'm not speaking of the Overself per se but these charts or this-- these vehicles which in every universe will re-manifest again and that souls will inhabit and work through. And that these are these-- the collective karmic impressions which are eternal. They will keep-- they will keep re-manifesting themselves in every universe. I mean in every-- every time there's a manifestation the World-Soul brings out the cosmic manifestation again and it will be these particular-- these karmic impressions or ceaseless-- ceaselessly recurrent types as we spoke of that will continually get re-manifested.
S (very faint): I don't see your point.
S (faint): Would you say like vehicles, is that what you said, the vehicle(s)?
AS (simultaneously): Well-- um--
S (faint): I just missed something.
S (very faint): I did too.
S (faint): By vehicle you didn't--
S (very faint): Who said that?
AD: Because-- which-- that's going to complicate it and I [AS simultaneously: Oh.] would rather [AS: Ok, well--] think of these vehicles in which the soul comes to birth as combination of both the vehicle and the soul that's inherent in it.
AS/S(?) (faint): Right.
S (very faint): Yeah.
AD: See, when he says--
AS (simultaneously): Ok but that--
EVERYTHING WITHIN THE UNIVERSE IS SELF-BEGOTTEN, AND THE UNIVERSE IS THE TOTALITY OF THESE SELF-BEGOTTEN ENTITIES INTERACTING WITH EACH OTHER
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "And the World-Mind has not made the world but only afforded the ground [for its existence], the receptacle for its mutually acting karmic potential forces…"
AS (faint): Ok.
AD: It seems that what he's saying here is that if we think of the universe which is constituted by a plurality of objects or entelechies or entities, each entity, alright, evolving, developing, eventually producing, let's say, bodhicitta, which is not the point I want to get into now, but that there's this constant evolution of this entity going on within a world-system. And this evolution of entities within a world-system react and interact with one another and are complementary in their development of each other, alright. So if we imagine this process going on, then what he would be saying is that the universe as a self-actuating system is the result of all these in-- of these entities. Because you're not working with a Creator God.
AS: Right. My only que--
AD (simultaneously): No Creator God here.
AS: My only question is, in the notion of karmic impression, not-- are you including within that the notion of the soul?
AD (simultaneously): The soul will come to birth in that, that's not necessary now.
AS: Right, that's what I'm saying.
AD: Not necessary because [AS simultaneously: Yeah.] we're speaking about-- we're speaking-- we're tr-- we're trying to understand the point here that ev-- anything that's included within a world-system, alright, or within the cosmic soul's production has been, [AS: Right.] has been forever.
AS: That's why I brought-- that's why I thought the example of those-- the way you spoke about the certain number of charts, I thought that was appropriate because those were not-- that notion seemed to exclude the notion of soul, the fact that there were a cert-- that these vehicles were almost eternal, in every universe they would be manifesting, would be these certain-- these individual minds, these structures, these thought-structures within the World-Mind--
(Side 1 of original cassette tape digitized as 1980 0130a Ends; Side 2 Begins)
AD: (--them.)
S: Uh-hm.
S (faint): Yeah.
AD: And that all of them together are going to actualize themselves into a universe. This is-- this is the point I'm trying to get at. And this-- this would not be the World-Mind. This must be cosmic soul. Let's go-- let's try again. I know it's a very astute of-- very difficult point. It-- we always take it for granted, perhaps in an unconscious way, that our being is something which is given to us. You know like in the Christian version? God gives you being but what you do with it is your business? Alright. But over here they won't even permit that. You're self-begotten. Now this isn't exactly a Western notion. You're self-begotten. You know what that means, you're self-begotten, no? You gave birth to yourself. And you'll go on doing so. So if you are self-begotten, and I am self-begotten and everything within the universe is self-begotten, alright, we can conceive of the universe as a totality of all these self-begotten entities interacting with each other, developing, evolving each other, forms changing but nonetheless these self-begotten entities go on being. Now that's only part of the reading here.
THE COSMIC SOUL DOES NOT MAKE INDIVIDUAL THINGS, RATHER IT MAKES AN ENVIRONMENT FOR THEM TO FLOURISH IN
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "[The] collective karmic impressions rise of themselves [AD: You and I."…rise] within World-Mind [AD reads: the cosmic soul]. This is because there has never been a time when they [AD reads: you and I] did not exist for, [AD reads: and] although their [AD reads: our] forms may change, they [AD reads: we] are as eternal as the World-Mind itself [AD: the cosmic soul itself]. Indeed, they are part of the World-Mind's [AD reads: cosmic soul's] nature. Hence they constitute a self-actuating system. … And the World-Mind [AD reads: cosmic soul] has not made the world [but] only afforded the ground for its existence [AD reads: for the existence of you and I], the receptacle for its [AD reads: our] mutually acting…"
AD: Reacting, fighting, you know, pushing, shoving.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "…mutually acting karmic potential forces, the stuff for its general karmic manifestations and the life-principle for its ever-moving activities which take place of their own accord."
[short pause]
S: So are those karmic forces the life principle?
AD: I'm sorry, (do it again).
S: Where he says--
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, S reading]: "…the stuff for its general karmic manifestations and the life-principle for its ever-moving activities…"
S: I don't understand the life principle there. Is he referring that to the karmic forces?
AS: Well it seems the World-Soul is "the life principle for the world's ever-moving activities which take place of their own accord."
S: So is that separate, it's a separate principle?
AD: Well that's what would be the ground. In other words, given that I plant seeds of peas or corn or whatever, alright, the ground, the sun, the soil, the water, alright, does not-- it nourishes the seed, yes, but it doesn't give the seed being. The seed is what it is and becomes itself. It can't be anything else, it can't ever become anything else. So similarly the cosmic soul could provide the ground for my development, alright, but I'm not going to become anything else. I'm going to always remain this particular entelechy that I am.
S: From your karmic force-- you know, from the karmic forces (which--)
AD: So we could say yes, the cosmic [AD says: karmic] soul gives life, is the receptacle in which its ground is-- makes possible for me to exist in it. Yeah, go ahead uh--
S: You mean the existences are self-begotten.
AD: I'm sorry?
S: The existences are self-begotten, not the being.
AD: I didn't hear you.
AS: The existences are self-begotten.
S (simultaneously): Before-- yeah, our existing, there's this-- there's this-- according to the laws of karma we beget ourselves. That's our existences, I was trying to get that clear, did you mean our existences or our being?
S (faint): Yeah.
S: When you said we beget ourselves, that all things that-- that are in a sense beget themselves, did you mean their existences or their-- you meant their-- their existence.
AD: All I-- all I was trying to do was point out when I use the notion of self-begotten, alright, was that if I don't do that then you're going to think that the cosmic soul made this being. And in this paragraph he makes very clear that the cosmic soul does not make these beings but only makes an environment for these beings to flourish in. Ok? Alright. But then that leaves the existence of the entelechy or the individual entity, alright, as uncreated. This cosmic soul didn't make it. Now that's the concept he's got in here. And that means that the universe as a self-actualizing system is the result of all these existing-- existences within it. In other words, we make the universe to be what it is. And when I say we I mean all of us, you know, and including higher and lower kinds of life.
AS/S(?): Go ahead.
S (simultaneously): When we s-- when we speak [few inaudible AS words simultaneous with S] in that way then seems like it wouldn't be appropriate to speak of the cosmic soul as having a karma or being subject to karma of its own because the karma would be [AD simultaneously: No, no.] the interaction of all the--
AD: No, you-- you're using karma in a personal way.
S: No, it's just that is--
AD (simultaneously, intensely): What's the first law of karma!? A thing must remain self-identical with itself if we're to speak of anything! Forget the word 'karma', throw it out the window. Besides it's not even English. (laughter) The Sun has to be the Sun. If it wasn't the Sun it would be the Moon! (bit of laughter)
S: I don't understand.
AS (simultaneously): If it was the Moon it wouldn't be the Sun.
S: I--
S (faint): Right.
AD: Each thing has to be self-identical with itself.
S: Ok.
AD: If I plant a pea, I don't get corn.
S: Right.
AD (intensely): Alright, that means that the pea is self-identical with itself and has to become itself.
S: But it's composed of--
AD (intensely): I don't have to use the word 'karma'.
S: But it's composed of light.
AD (simultaneously): Throw the word 'karma' away. Huh?
S: But as far as the Sun is concerned it's composed of light.
AS: No.
S: That's the part that the-- that the Sun would take or that the cosmic soul would take. (I mean) it's the ground.
AD (simultaneously): Well, I didn't want to get into a discussion [AS simultaneously: (You mean) existence.] of the nature of the cosmic soul. All I want to get into was this discussion of this very strange idea he has here, that a universe, if you want to consider it as a self-actuating system, alright, will have to be composed of centers of, let's say, consciousness which are going to evolve immeasurably for eons of time and the interaction among themselves is going to produce what we call a self-actuating universe. Just read the paragraph please! Please read the paragraph again, huh?
AS: Read it again?
AD: Let me go in and have a glass of beer. (laughter)
AS: Can I drink coffee? (more laughter, student words)
MB (faint whisper): You want coffee?
AS: No, no.
INSOFAR THAT WE ARE PERPETUALLY EXISTENT ENTITIES, WE ARE LAWGIVERS TO OURSELVES; WE ARE THE JUDGES OF OUR FATE
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AS reading]: "The collective karmic impressions [AS: Entities, that is entities.] rise of themselves within World-Mind [AS reads: the cosmic soul]. This is because there has never been a time when they did not exist for, although their forms may change, they are as eternal as the World-Mind itself."
AS: Ok. These entities are as eternal as the World-Mind itself or the World-Soul.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AS reading]: "Indeed, they are part of the World-Mind's [AS reads: World-Soul's] nature. Hence they constitute a self-actuating system. … And the World-Mind [AS reads: World-Soul] has not made the world but only afforded the ground for its existence, the receptacle for its mutually acting karmic potential forces, the stuff for its general karmic manifestations and the life-principle for its ever-moving activities which take place of their own accord."
[9½ second pause]
AS: Yeah?
S: That--
AD: Let me tell you, you don't want to understand this because that puts you on a spot. [S, faint: Yeah.] You understand this that means you're going to-- you're going to understand that you're responsible for what you do. Nobody wants to accept that. I'll blame everybody but myself before I get to myself.
AS: Anthony could I try and reinterp-- I mean-- If we say that he's not in this notion of a karmic potential, karmic impression or entity, if we say that he's not bringing in the notion of pure soul, ok, per se, then that means we're speaking about the entity as an existent within the fourth quadrant [diagram], as it were, being eternal. And we're saying that not-- ok, forgetting about the eternality of the soul there's actually-- the entelechy or the existent entity actually has a place within that World-Soul eternally.
AD: Well, the word 'eternally' [AS simultaneously: Place.] may be wrong.
AS: No I mean for all of-- for all of--
AD (simultaneously): Because eternally-- [AS simultaneously: Yeah.] eternally means out of time.
AS: No but for all of time.
AD (simultaneously): It has to be in time, whether the time is abstract or concrete. So we can say that this entity perpetually exist(s).
AS: And so also another thing, like-- maybe this is getting in another system but they speak about either the anandamaya kosha or the augoeides or something which contains within itself the potential for all the experience that entity is going to have for all of lifetimes and so on. Is that like this potential, this karmic potential or karmic impression he's speaking of? It's like you-- it's eternally within the c-- perpetually [AD simultaneously, faint: Well--] within the cosmos. It's always available for the soul's view.
AD: Now out of that entity let's say the-- the soul will come into birth, alright?
AS (simultaneously): Yeah, I-- I--
AD (simultaneously): But we could leave that out now.
AS: Yeah.
AD: The point to understand is that insofar that we are existent creatures or entities, alright, each and every one of us is a lawgiver to himself.
S (faint): Yeah.
AS: I-- In some way also he contains-- the whole of his development he principially contains within himself too and is going to unfold it.
AD (simultaneously): And the Sun or the cosmic soul does provide the total environment within this entity can manifest, flourish, grow, alright. And he says there it gives it life, etc, ok, the receptacle or the ground. And that's also the meaning in a different context when we spoke about the cosmic soul as being what they call the-- the crucified Christ.
AS: Yeah.
AD: He offers his being for our development.
AS: Yes. So-- also when they say it's obedient-- Vairochana's obedient to conditions, the conditions would be these individual centers. And that's the conditions which he's obedient to because that's his whole job is to allow them to manifest.
AD (simultaneously): So if we do something let's say like we were speaking about there's-- we're always engaged in activity in the world, in the-- in the cosmos, and we spoke about the precession of the equinox as being a-- a recording of all that activity, alright, so that when pralaya sets in all that activity which has ever been manifested in the universe is recorded as the-- in the World-Mind. The next manifestation that occurs, this recollection of that activity is what's going to be manifested. So there will always be this mutual interaction between the various entities within that cosmos. And that interaction of course is going to develop, force them into some kind of development. But the hard thing to understand here is that we are, each and every one of us individually, our own lawgiver. We are the ones who are, let's say, the judges of our fate. You heard the old saying, your character is your fate? What you do so you-- you'll become. What else could that paragraph mean? You know it's like the Jainist system and the Buddhist system. [9¾ second pause] It's hard to believe you're your own lawgiver, isn't it?
AS: Uh-hm.
S (faint): Uh-hm.
AD: But it's very unlikely that anything has ever happened to you which-- of which you did not initiate the initial causes. [short pause] If that wasn't so, you know, then to take a Bodhisattva vow would be meaningless. To take any vow would be meaningless. Go on, read some more.
THE COSMIC SOUL GIVES EACH ENTITY THE LIFE-FORCE, OR POWER, TO SELF-ACTUALIZE
AS: Johanna?
JG: I have still great trouble with the word 'self-actuating'. Couple of pages earlier--
AS: Excuse me, which word?
JG: Self-actuating.
AS: Self-actuating?
JG: Actuating, which seems to be very intimately tied up with what Anthony says that it's self-begotten.
AS: Yeah.
JG: You know, self-actuating for me means on common basis like you have the power within yourself to get something [one word inaudible] to get going, you know, you don't need another power. You have the power to activate yourself.
AD: No, no, he says there that the Sun is what provides the power [AS: Right.] or the life.
AS (simultaneously): Life.
JG: Yes, he says that on the-- on a couple of pages earlier.
AD: Yeah, go to a couple of pages earlier.
JG: It's 306.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 182, JG reading]: "The mind-substance of World-Mind is their inseparable ground and from it they derive their self-actuating power."
AD (simultaneously): Exactly.
AS: Right.
AD: From it.
AS: (Still) from it.
JG: Yes but I--
AS: Life.
JG: I-- still it's written here Anthony but I have a hard time understanding it.
AS: Oh, oh I remember. Yeah how could it be-- how it could be--
AD (simultaneously): Got to get you an optometrist.
AS: --self-actuating and still derived from them.
JG (simultaneously): Optometrist?
AS: I--
S (simultaneously, faint): We think we can get you some eyeglasses.
S (simultaneously, faint): [few words inaudible]
JG: Oh. (bit of laughter)
S: What?
RG: Well, because he also says that they're part of the World-Mind's nature. If they're part of the World-Mind's nature, then they derive their selfhood from that-- from that fact as well. And hence in a (sense--)
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, don't make them co-equal [AS simultaneously: No.] though Richard.
RG: No, no, but they derive their power [AD: Yeah.] from the World-Mind because [AS simultaneously: Yeah.] essentially they're not substantively other than the cosmic soul.
AS: Yeah. That was one(--/.) I don't know [JG simultaneously: That didn't help me Richard.] if Johanna's happy with that. He didn't care. (AS laughs)
JG: Yeah he doesn't, I know, but I do. (bit of laughter)
S (very faint, possibly part of background): Uh-hm.
S (very faint): Did you [few words inaudible]
AS: Um--
JG: 306, the top.
S (faint): Maybe.
S (faint): Yeah.
S (very faint): (6.)
S (very faint): 6.
S (very faint): Yeah.
AD: Come on, read it nice and loud, you know.
JG: What? The--
AS: (The line/Go on).
AD (faint): Yeah, the point (he/you) was making.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 182, JG reading]: "The mind-substance of World-Mind is their inseparable ground…"
AD (simultaneously): Alright, now instead of saying the mind-substance of World-Mind, alright, say the life-force of the cosmic soul.
JG: Yeah.
AD: Go on.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 182, JG reading]: "The mind-substance of World-Mind [JG reads: The life-force of the cosmic soul] is their inseparable ground and from it [JG: reads: that life source] they derive their self-actuating power."
AD: Ok?
S (very faint): Yeah.
AS: Right, the World-Soul gives them this power and then they can self-actuate.
MW (faint): They do what they want.
JG: What?
AS: Then they do what they want with it.
S: Yeah.
S (very faint): (Ok.)
AS: One-- basically once it gives it to them they do what they want, like a plant, you know. The sunlight gives them the power to grow but then the plant determines how it's going to grow, it's self-actuating.
JG: Ok, (got it).
AS: But it still doesn't have the power to be self-actuating of its own.
JG: Uh-hm.
AS: You know, if you [JG simultaneously: Ok, that's what I--] think of it as separate from the World-Soul it can't do anything. It would if it could. It would self-actuate.
S: In other words Avery what you're saying, if it were the other way a starting pine seed would have as much chance of turning into an oak as anything else.
AS: Right but it doesn't because it's self-actu-- yeah.
S (simultaneously): But it doesn't because it becomes a pine.
AS: Becomes it-- it can only become itself. It can't become something other than itself but it does so by the World-Soul's power or life. It needs to have life.
AD (simultaneously): And when your time comes and you pass on, you'll see that that very power, alright, which you think is yours is [AS simultaneously: Yeah, yeah.] taken from you, alright, and he makes a remark in one-- what was it, the chapter on dying, you'll feel as though you're like a tube of toothpaste, everything is being squeezed out.
S (faint): Is being squeezed, yeah.
S (very faint): That's (interesting).
[student makes squeezing noise]
AS: Back into seed form.
AD (simultaneously): That would be the power leaving you, that life-force leaving you. And then of course (you're/you) inert, you can't-- you can't actualize yourself.
S (very faint): Yeah.
S: [one word inaudible]
AD: Keep on reading, go ahead.
AS: Next paragraph.
JG/S(?) (simultaneously): Didn't help me (out) but--
AS: What's that?
S (very faint): What'd she say?
MW: Hm. Um--
AS: No.
S (very faint): [couple/three words inaudible]
S (very faint): Ok.
MW: You know, it must be so that this life-force is not-- say it's not your own. And it's-- you do have this experience of it being injected into you as it were and-- and it's taken out.
AD (faint): Well, that's how you participate in it.
MW: But if the entity is really self-actuating, all that-- that experience itself you would think would be something the entity--
AD (simultaneously): The entity is self-actuating [MW: Yeah.] according to karma. Go ahead.
MW: Ok, according to karma. What I'm trying to get at, it can't be something outside of the entity's history that's determining when that life-force is available to him or not because it's not-- there isn't another--
AD (simultaneously): Well, you just said according to karma.
MW: So by saying according to karma that's including--
AD (simultaneously): You've brought in-- you've brought in your relationship with the whole universe that you live in. And so that will be determinate.
MW: Hm. That just the i-- that it couldn't be that-- it couldn't (be--)
AD: We use an awkward example, you kill someone, alright, and then the next incarnation while you're actualizing your career, you know, bringing out your potential, your life was taken from you.
S (very faint): Yeah.
MW (faint): Uh-hm.
AD: Karma had something to do with that, (yeah) sure. The self-actualization isn't an indiscriminate one. You don't have omniscience or omni--
S (very faint): (Omnipotence.)
AD/S(?) (very faint): (Omnipotence.)
S (faint): But, where does that life just go when it lea-- leaves you or--
AD: That's like when they asked Plotinus when the plant dies where does the life-force go, he-- he remarked it doesn't go anywhere, it never-- never has been anywhere. [Note: Plotinus, V.2.2, third para.]
S: Yeah. Well, I mean--
AD: If you think of it as some thing then you're going to be locating it East, West, North or South. But it's everywhere.
S: But, in that-- that sense you were talking about, it's-- is it-- it's not that you really lose the life-force but it's because you're identified with the physical body.
AD: Yeah, there's some obstacles placed in its entrance into you.
S: But if you can do it right--
AD: That's a detail, that's (little) detail, let's [couple/three words inaudible]
S (very faint): [couple/three words inaudible]
AD: Where does it go? It doesn't go anywhere. But, the particular reason why the life-force should start or stop flowing into you, that's a detail. It has a variety of ways of doing that. Many ways.
S: Yeah.
S: I was trying to go-- I know you think of (how it stop) again but I mean it-- it's like your-- (laughter)
S (amidst laughter, faint): Yeah.
S (amidst laughter): Stop.
S (amidst laughter): I don't know if you (feel it).
S (simultaneously, amidst laughter, faint): Stop.
S (amidst laughter): You don't feel it at all. (more laughter)
AD: No it's alright, go ahead.
S: I mean how can the life-force enter some forms at one time and then other forms at other times? Is that what we're saying? It's always there everywhere.
AD: It's everywhere, sure.
S: Well how could it-- what's the--
AD: We-- you remember they found the-- what was it, the grains in the pyramid three thousand years old, they planted them, they grew. They could have planted them any-- anywhere, right? Egypt, Portugal, Sahara, anywhere, they would grow. The life-force is everywhere.
S (faint): [one word inaudible]
S (faint): That's what-- How can you say then it should be a certain (way) if it doesn't?
AD (simultaneously): Because the organism or the structure of the organism is defective. I get a block in one of my arteries, alright, I go-- I die. Well, don't make an issue out of those trivialities. (laughter, student words) There's so many ways to die, why worry about it? (laughter, student words) The point is something can happen to the mechanism. Boom, that's it. But the life-force per se is absolutely pervasive, there's no place where it isn't. It's only a question is, is there a receptacle that could receive it, that's the question.
S: It's constantly being-- it's constantly flowing through all these receptacles--
AD: It's everywhere.
S: --one after another maybe, but that--
AD (simultaneously): Don't you notice you-- any place you walk you can breathe and go on living. Go ahead, Richard.
RG: To speak of self-actuate in another way, could you speak of it that actuation occurs as a process of motion within soul. But the fact that there is a self that ac-- that can have something of itself actualized implies that that self transcends its motion and that the World-Soul must provide the ground for [S, faint: Yeah.] the self's motion but not the self's essence.
[short pause]
AD: Yeah, I'd agree with that, I'd agree with that. [15¼ second pause] Alright let's continue with the next paragraph. You see how here-- I think you'll see that later on we'll have to go in deeper, you know, on the point you made out for instance, what's-- what essence is it that's being actualized, self-actualized in this universe where it can manifest, you know, through the existence of its vehicles, alright. And we'd have to go into deeper-- into deeper realms and I don't think this book will take you that far. But, up to here, I mean it's quite meaningful and I think very apropos to take the analogy in this very physical way, we all know that the Sun is the absolute necessity of our being, that without it, alright, there's no possibility of life in the universe. So, if we restrict ourself this is very physical example, I don't think we're going to be led astray, we'll-- we'll get to truth. The only thing is like I try to tell Paul before is try to understand that when I use the term 'cosmic soul', I'm thinking of cosmic soul as the principle, the Idea behind all individual Suns that run throughout the universe and they're innumerable, that's cosmic soul. So actually we should say that the Sun of our system is not cosmic soul but the soul of this individual system, so it's not cosmic, unless by cosmic we mean like the Medievals meant, Saturn is the limit, that's the cosmos. If you talk about anything else, phooey, you know. Now modern science has broken that Medieval Ptolemaic conception, you know, and has made available to us a concept of innumerable, you know, solar systems, innumerable galaxies, so that kind of world picture can't be used. But underlying in principle the idea that each and every Sun exemplifies this Idea of cosmic soul, you'll be safe, you could use it. And then again remember, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with any of this. (bit of laughter)
S: You're not agreeing with any of what?
AD: With any of what I've been saying.
BS (very faint): [couple words inaudible] (laughter)
S (amidst laughter): It's amazing.
[9 ½ second pause, more laughter]
S (amidst laughter): It's not a comforting--
RG (faint): [couple/three words inaudible]
PD (simultaneously): Is this the Seventh Epistle? (laughter)
AD: I'm not going to write a last will or testament, don't worry. Because there isn't any. There are no limits to the understanding. Goes on. Let's read the next, ok, "The world…"
AS: Well--
THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS OF COSMIC SOUL: (1) THE UNINTERRUPTED LIFE OF THE INFINITE SERIES OF UNIVERSES AND (2) THE LIFE OF A PARTICULAR UNIVERSE
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AS reading]: "The world was never brought into existence but has always been in existence, however intermittently it reincarnates itself. In one sense, it is like a revolving wheel which forever circles on itself. No sage has ever calculated, no seer's insight has ever penetrated the primordial darkness around the beginnings of this process of every-becoming which constitutes our universe simply because there are none."
AD: You remember the quotation from Plotinus of-- about the two orders of soul? He speaks of Zeus as having two orders.
AS: The two-- two Zeuses?
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, right. Two Zeuses.
AS: Yeah.
AD: Alright, look it up and I'll-- I'll read.
AS: It's IV.3.10. [Note: IV.4.10.]
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "No sage has ever calculated, no seer's insight has ever penetrated the primordial darkness around the beginnings [AD reads: beginning] of this process of ever-becoming which constitutes our universe simply because there are none. We can only say that it is the very nature of the universe to exist eternally [AD reads: perpetually] in the sense that it is the very nature of everything else to exist only for a time."
AD: In other words, for a certain amount of that perpetuity.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "And because this is its own nature, because in this sense it is utterly outside the transiency of the time-series and has never had a beginning inside it, it is useless to ask why it was created."
AD: Now--
S (faint): Uh-hm.
AS: The one with the ordering principle is twofold?
AD: And he says one Zeus--
AS: Yeah.
AD: Like there's no possibility of recollecting the number of universes that have been formulated. Now you know, Plotinus wrote 200 A.D. so you can see it's a very old teaching, at least 1800 years old, 16, 1700. It goes back, goes back. [S, faint: Well--] Read it.
AS: It says--
Plotinus [IV.4.10, AS reading]: "When under the name of Zeus we are considering the Demiurge we must leave out all notions of stage and progress, and recognize one unchanging and timeless life."
AD: Yeah. Does he speak about the other Zeus, you remember the other Zeus [AS simultaneously: Yeah.] which is involved in time.
Plotinus [IV.4.10, AS reading]: "But the life in the Cosmos…"
AS: That's the other one. Oh I should read the previous sentence. When we are-- when we use this word--
Plotinus [IV.4.10, AS reading]: "…Zeus [AS adds: we apply the term] sometimes to the Demiurge and sometimes to the principle conducting the universe.
"When under the name of Zeus we are considering [AS reads: When we consider] the Demiurge we must leave out all notions of stage and progress, and recognize one unchanging and timeless life.
"But the life in the Cosmos, the life which carries the leading principle of the universe, [still needs elucidation]; does it operate without calculation, without searching into what ought to be done?
"Yes: for what must be stands shaped before the Cosmos, and is ordered without any setting in order: the ordered things are merely the things that come to be; and the principle that brings them into being is Order itself… It is an unchanging wisdom, and there can therefore be no changing in the soul which mirrors it…"
AD: Let's see, if we tried to say this in our own words we would have to think of it like this. Do you remember in the passage where he refers to the life which is the ground that the cosmic soul offers to all the entities within it. Now looking at the totality or the infinite series of universes that could possibly exist, looking at it from the point of view of this life, alright, this-- Zeus as the life of that universe, there could be no demarcations, there could be no joints, no cuttings. There would be this uninterrupted life of the universe which is in every universe included let's say in a series of universe. That's one version of cosmic soul. [S, faint: Right.] The other version of cosmic soul is the Demiurge is preoccupied with the fabrication of a particular universe where there would be calculating, planning, you know, things of that nature. So that here, in this quotation, if I can get back to you Paul, you can see that the notion of cosmic soul here has these two facets. It-- on the one hand it seems to be eternal like the World-Mind because of this uninterrupted-- uninterrupted life-stream which is forever supporting all universes that are to be or will be, alright. On the other hand, if we think of this universe and that universe, then there's another way of looking at soul as manifesting, withdrawing the universe, manifesting, withdrawing. And these two concepts are interrelated in the notion of soul or cosmic soul.
PD: Are they two separate beings or principles or is it one principle that's conceived in two ways?
AD: It's one principle conceived in two ways really. It-- I don't like to bring in the chart but like if you-- if you think of the Jupiter in Gemini [diagram], alright, that will be the eternality of the life of all universes to be. You could look at it that way, ok. And if you think of the Jupiter in Virgo [diagram], that would be the Demiurge of this particular universe. And that'd help you keep it apart. And yet they're all in the line of soul [diagram], all falls within the line of soul. [Note: See FIGURE IMG_2202-Posterboard Metaphysical Chart appended to this transcript.] So, Plotinus used the conception of soul and not of World-Mind, and I've been of course trying to steer his statements in that direction so you can see the bias I'm coming from.
[Note: See FIGURE 1980 0130a-2-AB, Empyrean, Three Ethereal Worlds, Upper Solar World, Three Material Worlds mapped onto Metaphysical Chart, appended to this transcript for the following.]
JG: Anthony, does what you just said about those on behalf-- on the quote by-- from Plotinus apply to that diagram, that the-- that life that always supports all the Suns, that is all the universes, is that more--
AD: Yeah, that would be the cause [JG: Yeah.] of the seasons, the cause of everything in our universe, [JG: Uh-hm.] alright.
JG: And the Sun in that-- in the twelfth house [diagram] or the Suns in--
AD (simultaneously): No there's no Sun in the twelfth house unless--
JG (simultaneously): Oh there's no Sun there?
AD: No there's no Sun here.
JG: Oh.
AD: The Sun is in the [JG simultaneously: Yeah.] eleventh [diagram], alright. And if we say that the twelfth house is the actual sensible world, then you look up into the heavens and you have millions of universes appearing, alright. Now you speak about the var-- variety of Suns as part of these systems, right? [JG assents] But the-- [AD tapping on diagram as he speaks] these are not the real soul, this is not real soul. That's real soul [Note: Sun in Aquarius, eleventh house]. This exemplifies real soul. Like the example I gave. Here's a dog, there's a dog, alright, and you have a lot of dogs. Let's put them here [diagram]. Here's the Idea of a dog [AD indicates on diagram] which is behind every dog that might appear here [AD hitting board with chalk or drawing].
JG: Wouldn't-- wouldn't there be a physical Sun in the twelfth?
AD: Well what you call physical Sun, yeah.
JG (simultaneously): Well, the sunlight.
AD (simultaneously): (Well), yeah. But that's not the Sun that [JG: Yeah.] is referred to as the soul, see. You have the same thing-- we had the same thing Friday when we were discussing Book VI and VII of Plot-- of Plato, alright. Again, he says, when you reach-- when you get to the fourth part of the divided line [Note: See FIGURE 1980 0130a-3-AB, Divided Line, appended to this transcript.] and you contemplate essences, alright, you're in this realm here [AD indicates on diagram; eleventh house]. And there you see the true Sun, he says you see the Sun in its own place but not in a foreign seat, in other words not in here [Note: twelfth house]. And there you contemplate the Sun as it is in itself. [Note: See Plato, Republic, Book VII.] Alright, that's the Sun they're talking about, the cosmic soul.
JG: So that-- that Sun in eleventh house has both these aspects you just mentioned.
S (faint): Uh-hm, yeah.
AD: Yeah.
JG (faint): Yeah, ok.
AD (possible aside): Well, (just a) little bit, sure.
S: At the beginning since you started doing this chapter you spoke of two aspects of cosmic soul, one is eternally-- I wrote it down, I don't know if I wrote it down right but is contemplating the fifth house [diagram] and one is creating the-- you--
AD (simultaneously): No not the fifth house, I'm not talking about it.
S: This is not--
AD: I didn't bring in the fifth house. Well go ahead, say what you want to say.
S: No, no I was just wondering if it was the same as-- as we just spoke of, I guess I misunderstood what you said in the beginning. One is creating the universes from out of itself [AD: Uh-hm.] and that's the outer aspect that we just spoke of, (it was) the outflow and then the withdrawing of the universal.
AD (simultaneously): Uh-hm.
S: And then the other one is contemplating-- the inner aspect is contemplating the World-Mind?
AD: The inner aspect of the same soul, of the same Sun?
S (simultaneously): Yes. As-- as contemplating the World-Mind. Is that-- is-- Now I want to know if that correlates to what we just spoke of as the Jupiter in Gemini.
AD: No that wouldn't correlate to Jupiter in Gemini Judy.
S (faint): Well I missed the [one/two words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): No, I'm-- I'm off there. Um-- let's see.
S: Did I misunderstand you?
S (faint): Yeah.
S (faint): Yeah.
AD: Well, it doesn't matter right now.
S (faint): Didn't you say Jupiter in Gemini?
AD: I was thinking of it in the metaphysical scheme, I want to give it to her first(,) (one/for a) minute. [9¾ second pause] Could we do something like this then, could we say that when we think of the Sun as manifesting a universe, a solar system, alright, let's put that Sun, because it appears, let's put that in the twelfth house. And then when we think of the Sun as withdrawing the universe back into its own essence, let's think of that Sun as the eleventh house Sun. Ok? And I don't think there'll be any confusion, what do you think?
S: Can you repeat that? I didn't-- I'm sorry.
S (very faint): Uh-hm.
S: Well I think-- well--
AS (simultaneously): [one/two words inaudible] you're keeping its own essence in the eleventh house.
AD: Yeah.
S: Uh-hm.
AD (simultaneously): In other words, this would be a very easy way to look at it if you want to use the chart. When we think of the Sun as projecting and manifesting a universe, alright, that means it must appear and that will be a sensible Sun, and we could locate that in the twelfth house in the diagram. Then when we think of the Sun as withdrawing that projection back into itself and now contemplating the World-Mind, that's the eleventh house Sun. So we could do something like this here. When-- [drawing] if we put this Sun here, this sensible Sun here [diagram], we have a manifested universe, ok. When this gets withdrawn and goes back, in other words the universe is withdrawn, retracted back into the Sun, now this cosmic soul, alright, is manifesting-- I mean is contemplating-- [AS: Mm.] is contemplating the Ideas in the World-Mind.
S: So that would refer--
AD (simultaneously): But it's doing that anyway because [drawing] when it projects a universe here [diagram] it will do so according [S simultaneously: According to the plan, yeah.] to the plan here [diagram], ok. So the cosmic soul will project a universe according to those Ideas or essences in the fifth house, [S, faint: Right.] alright. So we could use that diagram and that-- that would make it easier. And I think very directly. [student assents, faint] But that's for those who want to follow the chart symbolically.
S (very faint): Uh-hm. Go ahead.
AD: Go ahead, as we run.
S: Yeah.
S (faint): Yeah.
AD: Where did we leave off now?
AS: I think you read the paragraph--
AD (simultaneously): "You could only say it better…"?
AS: Do you want me to start?
THE COSMIC SOUL HAS NO PURPOSE TO FULFIL FOR ITS OWN BENEFIT, BUT THE ENVIRONMENT IT PROVIDES MAKES THE EVOLUTION OF ENTITIES WITHIN THE UNIVERSE POSSIBLE
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AS reading]: "We can only say that it is the very nature of the universe to exist eternally in the sense that it is the very nature of everything else to exist only for a time. And because this is its own nature, because in this sense it is utterly outside the transiency of the time-series and has never had a beginning inside it, it is useless to ask why it was created. The question becomes unanswerable because it is unaskable; it no longer arises and consequently can no longer be put. The fact that the world is a perpetual self-actuating process, is something which precludes us from asking such a question. We have to accept that the universe is. [And] whatever really is can never cease to be, just as whatever never was cannot really come to be. Where the opposite seems to be true that is our sense-born illusion. If we see the universe dying and disappearing, it has merely been transformed into latency as a man's thoughts disappear into his mind, where they lie in a latent condition. What the universe is here for [AS: I'm sorry,"What the universe is here for] is a query which becomes meaningless by this light."
AD: Alright. Let me read a little more, ok?
AS (simultaneously, faint): Yeah [one word inaudible]
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "The problem as stated is a false one, a pseudo-problem. The world movement will not deprive the World-Mind [AD reads: cosmic soul] of its own wonderful being if it stops or add to it if it continues. Alternate space-time manifestation [AD reads: manifestations] and withdrawal of the universe are as inseparable from its nature as breathing is inseparable from human life. We have to accept the necessity of such mysterious self-manifestation as an integral part of its nature and as an eternal law of its inherent being."
S (very faint): [couple words inaudible]
S (faint): What page?
AD: And [S simultaneously: Yeah.] then of course he goes on to say that we can't think of this as having some kind of final goal that it's working towards. It isn't like a game, you know, that you're going-- you're out to win and when you win it's over. There's no such thing. Now it's very hard for us because with our up-- Western upbringing, the Ju-- Judeo-Christian conception, the notion of beginning and end are all-important and even history is conceived as having a beginning and an end whereas almost all traditions don't look at it that way, they think of history as cyclic, you know, going around. We think of it going out, starting at a certain point and reaching a certain point and that's it. They think of it as going around in circles. I don't know which one's better. (AD laughs) If it's one way, that's not too good and if it's going around, that's not too good either so-- (AD laughs, bit of laughter)
S: What about the idea of evolution or things working towards something better?
AD: That does-- that does not exclude the possibility, I mean, the-- that would have to be explained that if the cosmic soul manifests a universe and that eventually the cosmic soul in manifesting that universe, and we said it provides the total environment for all the creatures within it, then the cosmic soul by improving the environment because we have improved in it, you know, then the possibility of evolution, of the manifestation of higher forms coming from here [diagram], manifesting from the cosmic soul, alright, is available to us. And many-- many traditions claim that there is such a possibility, that there is evolution. There's other traditions that claim that's all nonsense, alright, these things have been going on and they'll keep going on and samsara will keep being samsara, alright. Perhaps it's encouraging to know that we are going to evolve. I don't know, maybe we won't. (bit of laughter) If we say we're going to evolve and we take that for granted, we're in a pretty bad fix. One thing I do know. We're not going to evolve unless we make the effort, alright. So, I'll leave that question open. I look around the world and I'm not so sure we're evolving. And I look at myself and I know we're not evolving. (laughter) Let's go on.
JG: When did you look at yourself, that's the question. (JG laughs)
S (whisper): No.
AD: That's what?
JG: When did you look at yourself, that's the question. (JG laughing)
AD: Well every time I introspect, you know, I don't see any evolution.
S (faint): Uh-hm.
S: Right.
S (very faint): Uh-hm.
S: Well-- (bit of laughter)
S (very faint): (Well) go ahead.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "[Again] when we understand that World-Mind [AD reads: the cosmic soul] has its eternal existence outside of time…"
AD: That's [diagram] outside of time whereas this Sun [diagram] is in time. Alright, so they'll say this cosmos will last five billion years, six billion, you know, everybody has dates and figures nowadays. Like The Guinness Book of World Records. (bit of laughter) This Sun broke all records, it's going to endure for seven billion years. (laughter) You know when I read scientific books I (use the--) [S: Stay.] Every day there's a new, you know, author, cosmic author coming out telling us how long this universe is going to--
S (faint): For himself.
S (laughing): Oh man.
[Audio File 1980 0130a Ends]
[Audio File 1980 0130b Begins]
MB: --and I put on [RG simultaneously, faint: Ok.] TV one night.
AD/S(?) (faint): Go ahead.
S (faint): (What/Where)?
S (faint): Really?
MB: We don't turn the TV on very often but (laughter) Saint Matthew [couple words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Well, if you turned it on there must [S simultaneously: You (didn't).] have been a good reason, go ahead. (AD laughing, more laughter)
MB: All of a sudden it goes, "Newsflash, scientists have just discovered that the universe is really seven million years older than they originally thought." (MB laughs, laughter) Richard's going "That's crazy."
AD: They're going to baptize it (too/soon). (laughter)
AS (amidst laughter): Seven million years older.
MB (simultaneously): Well I (bet--) it wasn't exactly that number. Do you remember, did you-- it was either seven million (AS laughs) years older or seven million years younger but whichever it was really funny, everybody said "Wow, (really)?" ok, now go back.
AD: Now go back. (laughter, student words)
MW (amidst laughter): Change the dates. (more laughter, student words)
[short pause]
AD: He says here for instance the cosmic soul--
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "There is [AD reads: There's] no gain for itself in evolution."
AD: The cosmic soul cannot evolve.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 185, AD reading]: "…no purpose to fulfil for its own benefit, no profit to get to satisfy its own desire."
AD: Alright let's go on to the next, "The All-Knower". Please, uh--
AS: Start at the beginning?
AD: Well pick out whatever you think is worthwhile, you know.
AS (faint): Oh I see. Um-- Well you just-- you actually started. "Its own…"
THE PURPOSE OF EACH CREATURE'S EXISTENCE IS TO REALIZE ITS OWN ESSENCE (THE ETERNAL OVERSELF CONSCIOUSNESS), NOT THE ESSENCE OF THE COSMIC SOUL
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 186, AS reading]: "[And] if the World-Mind has no self-motive, no special purpose on its own behalf, this is not to say [that] it has none on behalf of the innumerable creatures within the universe. Its own presence provides adequate significance to life from their standpoint. … [short pause]
"The World-Mind abides unchanged and unaffected by the general movement. The cosmic process goes on therefore not for the World-Mind's sake but vicariously for the sake of the individuals within it. Hence the inner necessity which calls it forth into existence must not be misread. It is purely karmic. If we are called upon--as we are--to become co-workers in this process it is not really for the World-Mind's sake but for mankind's sake."
[11½ second pause]
AS: Well-- No the bottom of 313.
AD (simultaneously): Alright. Next chapter, next paragraph, "From the practical standpoint…"
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 186, AS reading]: "From the practical standpoint, which is that of the part and not of the whole, when we comprehend that every living creature from protoplasmic cell upwards is seeking to realize its own existence and that this quest becomes a conscious one in the higher forms of man, we may however speak of the universe possessing a final purpose."
AD: What does he mean when he says that each thing is seeking to realize its own existence if it is in existence?
BS (faint): If it is in existence?
AD: Well it-- [AS simultaneously: It is in existence.] it has to be in existence in order for-- for it to realize. But what is it trying to realize in existence?
S (faint): Maybe its source. Or maybe its-- its source in the cosmic soul?
AS/S(?) (very faint): [three/few words inaudible]
S (faint): Trying to realize its identity of cosmic soul or that it perceives in the cosmic soul or something.
AD: Well, yeah, that's pretty good. In other words you say that-- you're saying that the purpose of existence, and we're using the terms very technically, the purpose of existence is that for each creature to realize its own ultimate essence.
S (faint): Which is (ever/always) the cosmic soul or--
AD: No [AS simultaneously: No, and which is for--] it's own ultimate essence.
AS: Yeah it's not cosmic soul.
S (simultaneously): And--
S (faint): Uh-hm.
AD: Go ahead uh--
S: Well I was just confused because I thought you were agreeing with what Laurie said and I thought that that did not come from the cosmic soul.
AD: Uh-hm.
S (faint): Sure.
S (faint): Right.
AD: That's why-- that's why I didn't agree with her [S, very faint: Oh.] when she said to realize the cosmic soul. No, the purpose is for each creature in existence, and the purpose of existence is to manifest its own essence, alright, then the purpose of that creature's existence is to realize its own essence, not the essence of the cosmic soul.
S (faint): Oh ch-- oh, yeah.
AD: That's the whole-- let's say all the bother and work and all the aggravation that the cosmic soul is going through bringing you into existence so that you could realize your own essence, that's why it's going through all that and he says that's the immediate goal of the cosmic soul's work. It has no ultimate goal but that's the immediate goal. Of course it may take a couple of million years. It may not sound so immediate to us.
S: Uh-huh.
S (faint): Right.
AD: But from the point of view of the cosmic soul that will be the immediate purpose.
S: Don't we have to realize-- don't we have to get to the level of the cosmic soul before we get to-- to the level of the-- of a higher level?
AD: No the cosmic soul as we said is-- makes it possible for you to realize because it provides the ground, the [S simultaneously, faint: (Life-force.)] life-force necessary for this entity to realize its own being.
S (simultaneously, faint): Yes. Yes, what do you mean by its own being there?
AD: Its own essence. But in order for it to realize its own essence, it must first be (given/giving) existence. If its [S simultaneously: I s--] not given existence, it can't recognize [S simultaneously: Right.] itself.
S (simultaneously): Uh-huh.
S (faint): Ok I think I understand now.
AD: Ok.
S: But you mean its own-- this-- and you said it provides the environment, this cosmic soul provides [AD simultaneously: Uh-hm.] the environment for these creatures to realize that they are really of the-- of the Saturn in Leo, is that what you're saying?
AD: Yeah you could put it that way.
S (very faint): Uh-hm.
S (very faint): Ok.
AD: So existence becomes meaningful for this [S simultaneously: Right. Because-- right.] creature. Otherwise it becomes just, you know--
S: Because you couldn't realize it [AD: (That's right.)] otherwise, it would be identical with it and there'll be no knowledge.
AD (simultaneously): There'd be no purpose in it.
S: Right.
AD (very faint): (Right/Yeah).
MB: So now you're-- you're speaking of the entity that we said before was a karmic impression, now you're speaking of it as more than the karmic impression.
AD: Yes because those entities will bring to birth in themselves, as we'll get into later, they bring to birth the soul. When the organism is sufficiently developed then the soul could manifest more and more of itself and realize the meaning of its existing in a universe. Because it's only in the universe where its own essence is made manifest.
S (very faint): Uh-hm.
BS: Then when you speak of essences are you-- do you mean that these essences are not in existence?
S (faint): Yeah.
AD: Yeah.
BS: Not.
AD: No. Essence can't be in existence. They always eternally are, so the Overself consciousness eternally is. It is forever being, alright. But that means, alright, no kind of-- no kind of self-awareness. Now the only way this pure eternal consciousness the Overself represents can be-- that it can manifest only by existing in some material thing, alright, then this material thing, when it evolves and works itself up, this is what the meaning of evolution would be anyway. Now if you-- it would-- it wouldn't be that better and better forms are getting manifest, that wouldn't be the ultimate purpose of evolution. Ultimate purpose of evolution would be to realize the essence that constitutes you. Once you realize then the existence has done, so to speak, what its purpose-- what it was meant to do.
BS: And that, so to speak, to-- the entity is now-- well-- [short pause] well I don't know if I just say the Overself or withdrawn into the Overself or realizes the Overself. It's hard to think of that.
AD: I didn't catch the whole question, will you repeat it?
AS (faint): Make it better.
BS: I don't know, please stop me if it has nothing to do with [AD simultaneously: Go ahead, go ahead.] what we're talking about but I was [AD simultaneously: Don't worry about it.] (only) trying to conceive of the Overself in terms of the--
AD: Think of the Overself consciousness or pure consciousness as an essence, alright.
BS: Right.
AD: And this eternally is what it is. [BS simultaneously: (As/That's) (one word inaudible)] It doesn't exist. Because in order for-- existence is only applicable to something that's in space-time continuum of some kind. [BS: And--] The Overself is not in that kind of existence so they don't speak about it as existing, it-- they speak about it as Being, alright. So that's an eternal essence. Now, if that eternal essence so to speak has a vehicle which is provided for it or made or evolved in the a-- in the environment that the cosmic soul gives to it, then that vehicle ultimately could evolve to a point where it can realize its own essence. So the existence of these vehicles or means, animal organism, is for the purpose of bringing about the realization of that essence. So existence becomes quite important.
BS: Ok. The realization of that essence, now I can't help but wonder what the implication of that is.
AD: Well the implication of that is that the world, the cosmos, or the entirety of manifestation has a supreme value. And that supreme value would consist in ultimately making it possible for us to know our essence. Without-- without that possibility-- in other words without existence that possibility would be denied us. So it makes life in the body, life in the cosmos of supreme worth. There's no other way that that essence can realize itself.
BS: Are you-- are you thinking of the realization of this essence as a-- as an ongoing process or--
AD: But once the essence is realized, no.
BS: Then it's dead. Oh ok.
AD: Well, that becomes an entire-- that becomes another story altogether.
BS: That's what I was asking.
AD: That becomes another story altogether.
S (very faint): Yeah.
AD: When you reach soul then we'll find out about going beyond it.
BS : No I wasn't [couple words inaudible] beyond, I wondered if it had any reference to here.
AD: To what? Any reference-- I didn't hear.
BS: To here.
AD: Well yes, you can become a Buddha here.
BS: Well, never mind. (bit of laughter) Thanks.
JG: Never mind, don't mind it. (JG laughing, laughter)
AD: Well when you realize soul here now you go ahead and you march ahead if you want to realize-- you want to become a Buddha, alright. That means that there's a selection of more and more essences that must take place, essences of a higher and higher order that lead you to a level of Buddhahood. Sure.
[13¾ second pause]
THE TENTH AND ELEVENTH HOUSES, THE SYSTEM OF NATURE, IS THE TOTALITY OF THE GODS WORKING TOGETHER TO PRODUCE A COSMOS, THE LAST OF THE GODS BEFORE MANIFESTATION BEGINS
PD: What framework is the last sentence in the previous paragraph?
AD: Would you read it Paul please?
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 186, PD reading]: "There is ultimately no other supreme power than the World-Mind."
[9 second pause]
AD: In our universe I would say the ultimate power in our universe belongs to the cosmic soul. Now, you have to remember, I would have to attach here and say that the cosmic soul would never act except according to the dictates of the contemplation of the higher, the World-Mind. But the actual manifestation of a cosmos, the power involved and-- that-- that would be according to these premises due to the soul. [AD/S(?), very faint: Alright.]
[Note: See FIGURE 1980 0130a-2-AB, Empyrean, Three Ethereal Worlds, Upper Solar World, Three Material Worlds mapped onto Metaphysical Chart, appended to this transcript for the following.]
This diagram might-- might help in a way, if we think of it this way, uh-- Like if we-- if I call that the cosmic soul [diagram], alright, and we say that that is the cause of everything below [AD indicates on diagram]. Yet in another sense this cosmic soul is a reflection, if I use the Platon-- Platonic language, this is a reflection of the empyrium [empyrean]. Now in-- in Platonic theology they would refer to this here as the three material worlds, one, two and three [diagram]. They would refer to ten and eleven as the upper solar world [diagram], which is one, ok. And then over here [drawing] where you have the next three houses they call that the three ethereal worlds [diagram]. Now this is what's strange. Three ethereal worlds here [diagram], the upper solar world here [diagram], and the three material worlds here [diagram]. Now this upper solar world, one, alright, or the entirety of the System of Nature, is a reflection of the Intellectual Realm [diagram]. And this System of Nature, the Platonists call that the last of the Intelligibles, alright. [student assents, very faint] So we say that this [diagram] is the power that produces everything in the cosmos but ultimately this here [diagram] is a reflection of this [diagram], empyrium [empyrean], the Intellectual quadrant. And I think you could read it into here although it's not into here when he says there is ultimately no other supreme power than the World-Mind, that ultimately it's this here [AD indicates on diagram], alright. But through the intermediation of the cosmic soul.
(Well--) One other thing. This System of Nature that we're speaking about, you know, the tenth and eleventh house, is really a very highly exalted thing, I mean-- We think of Nature, the entirety of Nature, alright, we tend to look down our noses, alright. But this is not the conception to work with because that would be a misunderstanding, you-- the System of Nature here is like the totality of all the Gods working together to produce a cosmos and they-- they would be like the last of the Gods before manifestation begins. So it's a very highly exalted notion.
PD: Would that be what-- (well/what) I like to say that it's traditionally called the formless realms?
AD: It is formless in the sense that there are no forms in it but it is the fabricator of all the forms in the next-- in the twelfth house. Over here for instance we would put the Greek vesica, you know where we say you have the Gods, Jupiter, Vesta, Hermes, Ceres [diagram], they're all there working. [Note: See 11th house in FIGURE IMG_2319 copy, Proclus Chart (excerpt), appended to this transcript.] And there is the realm of light. That's the realm of light. Everything so to speak that's done there is done in terms of light. So the whole world is prefigured in this light. And then gets manifested through the individual, let's say, Suns, the Suns are like mediums through which these formless images in the light get projected through the Sun, the Sun's light is a vehicle in which they get implanted let's say on an Earth and then start manifesting as certain forms that were prefabricated in that realm. But you see I'm bringing in teachings that are not in this book.
[11½ second pause]
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 186, AD reading]: "In this sense only the World-Mind [AD: cosmic soul] is forever producing and perfecting out of its own substance and under the necessary conditions of time and space a universe whose members will grow in consciousness through a series of planetary wanderings towards a sublime goal. The value of the cosmic activity consists in the [AD reads: a] general upward direction along which its individual centres move. The universal movement is destined to raise life and intelligence to ever loftier levels. This is the immediate and immanent purpose behind it. The development of self-subduing conscience and the unfolding of higher consciousness are the chief ends and [AD adds: the] best values which Nature is working out in man."
[13 second pause]
AD: Well let's get to the next paragraph, it's kind of interesting. Ok?
S (very faint): Oh I see.
AD: Yeah?
BECAUSE THE LIFE-FORCE IN US WANTS TO GET BACK TO THE COSMIC SOUL, IT WILL DRIVE US THROUGH THE SEVEN PLANES OF EXISTENCE—THUS EVOLUTION IS GUARANTEED
S (faint): May I ask you a question?
AD (simultaneously): Go ahead, please, please.
S: I'm confused about this sentence--
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 186, S reading]: "The value of the cosmic activity consists in the general upward direction along which its individual centres move."
S: I would like to know if that sentence refers back to paragraph 52?
AD: Well, I don't know a paragraph 52. (bit of laughter)
S: Well I'm going to read it right now.
AD: Alright, read it.
S: Where he says--
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 183, S reading]: "Evolution is guaranteed because some fragment of the cosmic mind is itself the life-force which strives upward through all the muffling veils…"
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, ok.
S: I guess I haven't really understood paragraph 52.
AD (faint): Well--
S: I--
AD: And it just sounded kind of similar to me this sentence in this--
S: Can you read it over louder Laurie?
S: Yes. Um--
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 183, S reading]: "Evolution is guaranteed because some fragment of the cosmic mind is itself the life-force which strives upward through all the muffling veils of the four kingdoms of Nature…"
S: That was the sentence in paragraph 52.
AD: Now if we-- if we go back to what we said, we said that the cosmic soul or the life-- the cosmic soul provides the ground, [student assents] right, for all the being-- for all the entities in that universe. And it provides the life-force, the power, necessary for these entities to get actualized. [student assents, faint] Now this power or this life which is in your body, running through your body, this life-force or power belongs to the cosmic soul. Now, could it be otherwise that eventually this life-force, alright, which is in your body and which belongs to the cosmic soul, wouldn't it be the most normal thing for that life-force to seek to return to the cosmic soul? And in so doing force you through various levels. In order for that life-force to get back to the cosmic soul, it must go through a process of purification and etherealization, sublimation and all that.
S: The life-force is going through this process.
AD (simultaneously): Yeah. So it'll take you through that process. So it's guaranteeing, according to this, you know-- I mean he's an optimist. According to this notion then this very principle of life-force which is carrying-- carrying out its activity in our bodies and all that, alright, will force us through these various purgations, elevations, you know, alright. Now if you remember in the eleventh house, the idea there is that there's seven lokas and talas, and the lowest level to the highest level, the highest level is Satya loka, alright, there's the lowest level is the one we live on. You can't get any lower.
S: Is there light? (S laughs, bit of laughter)
S (very faint): [couple words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Can only go upward. Maybe [S laughing: Thank you.] that's why he's an op-- optimist. (laughter)
S (amidst laughter): Oh.
AD: You can't go down, you gotta go up. Alright. Now if this very life-force, alright, which is coming from the cosmic soul, and this cosmic soul let's say is at the level, Satya level, alright, then the very nature of that life-force is to cause anything it's embodied in, alright, to go through that process which we referred to before as evolution. Because that life-force in us wants to get back to the cosmic soul. And wanting to get back to the cosmic soul, it'll drive us through these seven planes of existence.
S (faint): Uh-hm.
AD: Alright. So the whole point here is that you will be guiding, you'll be the driver, alright, and you're leading this biotic force.
S: I'm leading this biotic force?
S (whisper, possibly part of background): Yeah.
AD: You can always take a wrong turn. I mean this life-force wants to go there but you forced it here. So you're driving. But the tendency of the life-force in itself is to return to its source. Now, you-- I don't have to tell you how often we interfere with natural events, you know. Things are trying to straighten themselves out and we get in the way and make a bigger mess. And then we say "Well wait a minute, I got to straighten this out" and it gets bigger.
S (faint): Yeah.
S: So if we could-- so then if this--
AD (simultaneously): Learn to let things be.
S: Right.
AD: Yeah, then we'll pass.
S (simultaneously): Another-- right. And another way of putting that would maybe to-- you know, like when we meditate and we slow our minds down so that we can-- I mean is that a way (that we have--)
AD (simultaneously): Well that's not letting things be. That's interfering with things.
S: Wait a minute. (bit of laughter)
AD: Well, that's why I ask you, don't get into details. (bit of laughter) As soon as you inter-- as soon as you're meditating, you're interfering, aren't you? You're trying to consciously direct and control your-- your development. It has to be done in the beginning. Eventually the better exercises, the better-- better meditations is learning to let go and let-- let It show you. But those are the higher ones.
S: Anthony, I'm having a hard time trying to figure out the difference of the life-force and me, I mean without the life-force what am I driving?
AD: Well didn't you ever sit in a car and it ran out of gas and you couldn't go anywhere?
S (faint): Just yesterday. (laughter)
S (amidst laughter): Ok.
S (amidst laughter, faint): Just yesterday. (S laughing)
AD: You still got the car. And you're still sitting in it. (laughter)
S (amidst laughter, faint): You still have (choice, in other words).
AD: The power isn't yours, ultimately that power isn't yours, it belongs to the cosmic soul.
S (faint): [few words inaudible] yeah.
S (simultaneously, faint): Is Christian--
AD: Go ahead.
S (faint): Yeah go ahead.
S (simultaneously): When you speak of the life-force, please somebody jump in, [S, very faint: Go ahead.] is-- do you mean the-- that there's a certain intelligence that goes with it that can be separated from it?
AD: Yeah.
S: Because it seems like if you're talking about pulling-- pulling it back into itself, pulling the forms back in it would have to be the intelligence.
AD: Look, it's just loaned to you.
S: What?
AD: It's just loaned. After a while you find out you have to give it back, just like ultimately you have to return all love back to God. They're just loaned to you. You can't get along without it, alright. But then when you finally get to where you want to go you could give it all back.
S (faint): But you have to give it back in the same shape you received it. (laughter)
AD (amidst laughter): Well--
S (amidst laughter, faint): Well, that's right.
RG: That's right.
S (amidst laughter): Can't give it to them used.
AD: It does want it dry-cleaned, yeah. (laughter)
S (faint): Go ahead.
S: Can I ask you one more question, I know I'm a [one word inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Please, go ahead, go right ahead. You should start this way at seven with the question(s), go ahead.
S: Can I-- Then he speaks of-- this is paragraph 52 again.
THE LIGHT THAT IS GIVEN BY THE OVERSELF TO THE BODY DEVELOPS AND LEARNS THROUGH THE PSYCHE IT PRESIDES OVER
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 183, S reading]: "Consciousness too develops along with the life-force, attaining conscious sensation…"
S: Etc, etc.
AD: Oh you're back somewhere--
S: I know.
AD: What page are you on?
JG: 308.
S: 308, [AD simultaneously, faint: Well--] I'm sorry.
AD: That's alright.
S: Yeah.
JG: I think it was a very interesting--
S: I--
AD (simultaneously): I always look at a book as one page. (bit of laughter)
S: When you speak of con-- this consciousness is the light of the Overself and like--
S (faint): You have a [one/two words inaudible]
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 183, AD reading]: "Consciousness too [S simultaneously: Too.] develops along with the life-force…"
AD: Is that where you're reading?
S (simultaneously): Yes, that's where I'm reading.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 183, S reading]: "…attaining conscious sensation [S reads: sensations] in the lower [AD: Uh-huh.] animals, conscious thinking…"
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, and your point here?
S: My-- my point is that I don't understand how you were speaking it, you were speaking of it as the light of the Overself. That's what you said but I'm not--
AD: The consciousness.
S: Yes.
AD: Yeah, ok.
S: Uh-hm.
S: What do you mean by the light of the Overself?
JG: Developing.
AD: Well--
S: No--
AD: The-- [S simultaneously: As distinct--] the only-- the only reasonable way to speak about the soul which is within us is a-- is-- is as a light that illuminates the activities in the psyche. I don't know of any other way of speaking of it.
S: Well what-- what's the difference between a light of the Overself and the Overself?
AD: Well that's like a-- like one is the principle and the other is something given by the principle to something less. So the Overself gives a little bit of its light to a body, alright. This light which is in the body we're calling the light of the soul, alright. The soul can't give of itself to the body completely, how could it do that? How could a universal principle, alright, be encased and subsumed under the body? It's just like when they say that a s-- an avatar or, you know, a-- a man embody the infinity of the metaphysical principle and say that there's an incarnation of God. I mean how could-- You could think of it, I can't, you know. I got a weak little brain.
JG: Oh you're putting us on, yeah.
AD (simultaneously): I'm not putting you on. (bit of laughter) But you just try, you just try to conceive it, you know, and maybe you can and I can't. I can't conceive of that possibility, that God could become man, if we're using the word 'God' as a metaphysical infinite principle. In the same way, soul can't become man but only a certain portion of that soul, alright, gives something to the body, alright, and what it gives to the body is what we're calling this light. Now, [JG simultaneously: But Anthony you s--] introspection-- I'm sorry. Now in introspection you're looking into your mind and you're illuminating the activities of your mind, aren't you? That's a light. You close your eyes, you see light?
S (very faint): No.
AD: No? You close your eyes? Go ahead, close your eyes. Yeah rub them. You see light? (laughter) At night when you're dreaming, alright, at night when you're dreaming, don't you see the objects? Isn't there light in you? Well how else could I explain this light, how do you explain it? A phosphorous in-- ir-- iridescence of the bodily mechanism? Where's this light coming from?
JG: But Anthony--
S: How can the Overself's-- you-- so you're saying--
AD: Don't get into the problem of how it could do it. You people always go into these details. (laughter, student words) You can't grasp the general principle but you want the details.
JG: But the--
S: But how--
JG: PB seems to mention details, he says consciousness too develops, now last--
AD: This light which is given by the Overself to the body develops, yes. [S simultaneously: So--] That's what the Buddhists call the birth of Bodhicitta in the individual.
RG: Why do you speak of that light developing?
AD: Why do you what?
RG: If it's a re-- if it's a ray of the Overself--
AD: It develops, believe me.
JG: Well we would like to believe you. (JG laughs) But-- I mean in terms of--
AD (simultaneously): Otherwise the whole purposes of the series of incarnations and experiences you go through would be quite meaningless.
RG: But if that light doesn't--
AD (simultaneously): Because that's going to be that inner conscience that you go with all the time. That's what will perpetually keep incarnating, not the Overself.
RG: Right.
AD: Yeah. And a-- it incarnates according-- according to the-- what it has learned from whatever psyche it presided over. It gets moulded by the functioning of that particular psyche.
S (faint): Yeah.
AD: Alright. So it does-- it does evolve, that consciousness does evolve.
JG: So that's what-- I mean last week couple of terms (felt) like acquired intellect and that this light was generated or was the child of the psyche.
AD (simultaneously): Well-- Yeah we'll-- go ahead.
S (very faint): Go ahead.
S (very faint): Go ahead.
S: I (can't--)
AD: Go ahead Laurie, continue with your--
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 183, AD reading]: "Consciousness too develops along with the [AD reads: this] life-force…"
AD: In other words we said that this life-force, alright, which each being was actualizing, alright, this life-force was the power by which this [S simultaneously: Right, from the cosmic soul.] being is actualizing. Concomitant to that would be the consciousness that was presiding over it. That too would be evolving with the whole thing.
[short pause]
S: So the light of the Overself-- [short pause] I'm having trouble putting it all together, the life-force and the light of the Overself, you know the life-force bringing-- bringing us--
AD: Think of the life-force as all the powers necessary to operate all the physiological functioning that's going on in your body, ok? Will you confuse that with the illuminating light that operates in your introspective-- introspective awareness? No. They're two utterly different concepts, alright. I could be sitting down and meditating or contemplating or reflecting, alright, I could be doing that, alright, and keep it distinctly separate from the power which is animating and running the whole mechanism of the body. Now that power which is running the body we're calling the life-force. [student assents, very faint] Ok? Now let's say that in-- I'm meditating, all of a sudden I get certain experiences, alright. Now that light which we said is coming from the Overself gets modified by that experience. It now knows something it didn't know before, let's say, alright. So on-- we would have the example where, so to speak, this introspective light ri-- living in this animal body, in this organized animal body, experiencing certain things within this organized animal body and benefiting by those experiences that's it getting. So it's evolving with the life-force.
S: And then eventually this life (let's) say grows or gains ex-- experience-- through the experience of the-- the body (let's/it's)-- or through this body it's gaining experience and then it eventually realizes that it's the Overself, its source in the Overself?
AD: Well it will ultimately come to that, yes.
S (faint, possibly part of background): (Thank you.)
AD: So it makes it seem as though you got a paid ticket, you know. Guaranteed journey back and forth.
S: And I have here, as light-- as light is assimilating essences, it itself is growing. So that would be what I--
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, the same thing.
S: --just described.
AD: Same thing.
[32¼ second pause]
HOW TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN INDIVIDUAL TIME AND COSMIC TIME AND HOW ARE THEY RELATED TO EACH OTHER?
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," pp. 186-187, AD reading]: "What kind of perceptions, what kind of consciousness has the World-Mind [AD reads: cosmic soul]? The attempt to answer this question is a useless one unless we change our way of viewing time. So long as we regard time as something operating independently apart from consciousness, so long will it be impossible even to form the merely symbolic conceptions which represent the limit of an intellectual answer to such a question."
AD: Go ahead.
AS: Go on?
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 187, AS reading]: "Our remembrances of the past, our anticipations of the future, even our moment-to-moment living in the present, are all mentally constructed. This would sound incredible were it not that our faith in time has been sadly sapped by the mentalist and dream investigation into its real character, as well as into mind which is the root of time. The pres…"
AD: I would say cosmic [AS simultaneously, faint: Yeah.] soul is the root of time, not mind. Ok, continue.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 187, AS reading]: "The present event seems real and the past one unreal only because our full concentrated attention is being focused upon it but is absent from the other. The immense power of either attention or inattention to build, eliminate, quicken or slow down different spheres of experience is hardly known and seldom noticed by the multitude but the yogi who has successfully trained his mental powers of rapt absorption soon ceases to be astonished at the extraordinary modifications in his space-time experiences of events and persons which thenceforth occur. It is quite possible for anyone who has the requisite concentration or sufficient interest and desire to develop the requisite intensity of concentration to convert his own past into the present for instance. A man who has lost a well-beloved wife may do it frequently when sunk in reverie over remembered episodes. Any expert yogi can do it at will by bringing into the centre of his mental focus a thought, theme, person or picture. Where then does the fixity of time lie? Where is the difference between past and present? Both lie within our mind and nowhere else. Both are ideas. [S, faint whisper: Yeah. Go ahead.]
"If during dreams it is possible to pass in a few minutes through a series of episodes which would require several weeks of wakeful time, if during the influence of a drug it is possible to experience a single half-minute episode in what seems several hours, then it is clear that the order in which we experience events in time can be fantastically quickened or [fantastically] slowed down. [If] this is possible in the case of a human mind, if the attempt to impose our common standard of waking time upon a dreaming or drugged man is futile and absurd, is it not equally futile and absurd to attempt to impose any time standard at all upon the World-Mind? When we understand that no limit can be set to the number of different time-orders which can exist, we may understand that one second of our wakeful time may be equal to one thousand years of time in another type of consciousness whilst one [AS reads: a] thousand years of our wakeful time may be no more than one second in the existence of a superior consciousness."
[short pause]
AD: Any problem here?
S (very faint): Yeah.
AD: Yeah go ahead.
S: (Yeah), um-- It seems at some points he's saying that time is the product of our mind and I was thinking that was the individual mind, you know, the individual center creates, you know, time and space along with his thoughts, his individual thoughts. But I'm clear you said well, it's really the World-Soul that provides the time. (Or/Well) you said it was the basis for time. And you know I was just trying to put them together, I mean-- It really seems like time does come but it only comes with the individual mind, so-- And yet of course this is idea of time, that both are ideas, perhaps (this--)
AD: I--
S: Do you-- you don't get a clear question at all (what I mean)?
S (faint): No.
S (faint): (Uh-uh.) (laughter)
S (faint): Yes. (bit more laughter)
S (very faint): That's right.
S: If I said time, I mean-- I'm trying to s-- if time is-- is within the individual mind, in what sense has it got anything to do-- how is the cosmic mind providing it?
JG: Cosmic [one word inaudible]
S (faint): Go on.
AD: Well it-- obviously there's a problem here, he says it in the paragraph.
PB [The Wisdom of the Overself, "The World-Mind," p. 187, AD reading]: "The successive happenings of our own time-order so appear for our benefit, not for the World-Mind's. Our finite way of observing events in time, of experiencing changes in succession, is not the cosmic way. Our time-order is simply one particular dress [AD reads: way] out of many which the cosmic world-idea wears."
AD: Alright, the very bottom. We'll be getting to that, I'm going to stop now but next week we'll get into-- Try to read and study very carefully up to the end of the chapter, four pages, but we'll get into that whole question of the-- how the-- the distinguishing between individual time, cosmic time, how they're interrelated to each other. They're-- you-- We'll do that next week, we're out of time. Is there such a thing as absolute time, you know.
[background student talking till end]
[Audio File 1980 0130b Ends]
1980 01/30a V14.1a: CLASS: PB Books; Wisdom; World-Mind. Copyright 2023 Wisdom's Goldenrod p. iii