DIAGRAMS FOR 1981 0128
Class
Wednesday, January 28th, 1981
Verbatim, unedited transcriptCLASS at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY
with Anthony Damiani (AD)
January 28, 1981
METAPHYSICAL CHART; IDEA OF MAN
TOPIC: Metaphysical Chart
SUBJECT: Idea of Man
SUBSUBJECTS: 12 Houses Symbolization, Mandalas for the Idea of Man in Soul & Idea of Man in Cosmos
CONTENTS:
5th Idea: special and unique form of the whole
Twelvefold of 5th-house Idea delineated
The second sector: Idea of Man in Soul: Leo through Scorpio
Leo & the 3rd house of Idea of Man in Soul
Referring back to 10th-house Idea, 9th-House Idea
Rubber ball analogy
Leo dignities, first three houses of the Idea of Man in Soul
On changes in conceptualization
Three charts of the Idea of Man: conceive of as layered
Threefolds vs. fourfolds: ontological vs. metaphysical
Each Idea as a special & unique will work out differently
10th-house Idea
Objective microcosmic man & subjective man
The three zodiacs
9th-house Idea as Intellect Zodiac
Correspondences between triadic zodiacs & metaphysical Ideas
Gemini, the Twins
The Unit Soul
Animals of the zodiac
Sorting out T.S. Row 12 Ideas, 12 houses, 12 signs
Zodiacal signs & planets are variable, different level from the Ideas & the house structure which are fixed
Ideas prior, nothing can be communicated without them
1st Idea of One, presupposition for understanding anything
Ideas ontologically determine our thinking
House structure: differentiation of meaning in a hierarchical order, Unity first
Unity: Aries (all unity below Being) vs. 1st house (Unity per se)
Awesomeness of the Ideas
The Idea of Unity
Unity in Leo of Subjective Idea of Man in Soul vs. Unity in Sagittarius of Objective Idea of Man which provides Soul's vehicles
Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius, their animal symbols
Differentiating the subjective Soul
All imagery of cosmological scheme in 12th house
Soul's perception basis of perception down here
Two zodiacs, objective & subjective
Example with 7th house situation: mundane vs. meaning
Soul's own vision of Idea of Man comes from its interpretation of 3rd house
Forms in the Soul: wagon wheel analogy
Favorable aspects & intuitions
Hindu vs. Platonic views: Soul and knowing
Meaning is from Formal identity, teaching the Soul
Objective includes bodily sheaths & cosmic manifestation (& Samkhya)
Objective vs. subjective
Planets as gnostic & fabricative, knowing & being, are both objective; Soul's knowing is subjective
Correlation of the two zodiacs, objective and subjective
Heart center connection
On different philosophic systems
The ether element
Cosmic existence & Soul essence (VI.8.14) as dependent-arising, emptiness
Paracelsus quote
Methodology
Threefold signification of a degree
BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:
Plotinus, The Enneads (MacKenna translation, 4th ed.)
T. Subba Row, A Collection of Esoteric Writings, "The Twelve Signs of the Zodiac"
Bible, Proverbs 8
Plato, Seventh Epistle, Republic, Timaeus
Paul Brunton, The Hidden Teaching Beyond Yoga
Thomas Taylor (tr.), The Commentaries of Proclus on the Timaeus of Plato, in Five Books
C.G. Jung, CW 13, Alchemical Studies, "Paracelsus as a Spiritual Phenomenon"
PLOTINUS QUOTES READ OR REFERENCED: II.3.9, III.2.16, IV.4.11, V.3.6, V.9.8, VI.3.9, VI.7.6-7, VI.8.14
DIAGRAMS appended to this transcript:
FIGURE IMG 2202-Posterboard Metaphysical Chart.
FIGURE 1981 0128-2. Fifth Idea as a Unique Form of the Whole.
FIGURE A41. The Idea of Man in Soul or Life, with Demiurgic Intellect and Particular Soul.
FIGURE 1981 0128-4-JF. Idea of Man Mandalas.
FIGURE A46. The Idea of Man in Soul or Life, with the Planetary Spheres.
Other diagrams also referred to are not with this transcript version. [Transcriber note: [diagram] means the speaker is referencing a diagram as he or she is speaking. If someone is drawing or writing, with audible sounds of chalk on a blackboard, I indicate this by [drawing] or [writing].]
NOTES:
This early 1981 class series on the Idea of Man was held on Wednesdays.
In these classes Anthony Damiani speaks about, among other things, the relation of Soul to Nous and Being, and to the Cosmos; perception; and "teaching the Soul". A large portion of these classes is devoted to Anthony Damiani's laying-out of the components of the three Idea of Man mandalas; herein we can see some of his metaphysical chart methodology. In these classes, one should remember that Anthony Damiani is working out his speculations in the metaphysical chart; therefore his symbolization of astrological and metaphysical chart concepts may not exactly match that in Anthony's later thinking or in Astronoesis.
For related material, see Astronoesis pp. 114-117 in the Intellectual-Principle chapter and pp. 327-329, the endnote by Anthony Damiani: "Twelvefold Mandalas for Each Level of the Idea of Man."
Previously printed, distributed 2003 as part of a set on the Idea of Man.
TRANSCRIBED by jf 2003 from Audio Cassette tapes; reformatted by jf 2018. In 2026, IT does two more passes, updates prefatory matter and footer, replaces tape markers with audio file markers, alters Topic, completes Book List, adds Plotinus quotes section, corrects typos, spells out most numbers, adds new notes and alters some existing notes within transcript, removes one of two appended diagrams and adds four diagrams and references within transcript to these diagrams, reformats to accord with new conventions. Archival verbatim transcript – V12a.
AUDIO FILES: 1981 0128a, 1981 0128b (formerly 1981 0128b vol), 1981 0128c (formerly 1981 0128b). [Note: In 2025-26, REP Studio cuts dead air from the beginning of files b, c, and separates off Soul class fragment from file c.]
| NEW FILE NAME | OLD FILE NAME |
| 1981 0128a | 1981 0128a |
| 1981 0128b | 1981 0128b vol |
| 1981 0128c | 1981 0128b |
1981 01/28 at Wisdom's Goldenrod
Metaphysical Chart; Idea of Man
[Audio File 1981 0128a Begins]
AD: But if you understand Plotinus, you'd understand the Letter [Plato's Seventh Epistle], and you'd understand that the contents of Plotinian doctrine. So whether he wrote it or he asked one of his students to write it for him doesn't matter too much. Well I'm going to introduce the teacher again, but-- We were working on the Intellectual-Principle a little, and we're trying to gain some insight into it. And we took one example which was a very difficult one, the tenth house Idea, and we went around the circle with that. Well anyway, I went around the circle. Now I don't know if anyone picked up brass rings or not but we're going to do the same thing with another Idea. But since many of you have already seen the Idea worked out in a seminar, we'll go through it briefly. And that is the Idea of Man. Now this is a very important Idea because so much is involved in the work we're doing. [short pause] You're getting artistic, a red circle? [9¾ second pause, shuffling of papers]
[Note: See FIGURES 1981 0128-2, A41 for the following discussion. The Metaphysical Chart is also referenced throughout and has been appended. For additional context, see T. Subba Row's essay "The Twelve Signs of the Zodiac" and Astronoesis, pp. 114-117.]
We're taking this circle here to represent the Intellectual-Principle [FIGURE 1981 0128-2, left circle], alright? We're leaving the One out. The One would be, you know, the Mars, Venus, Mercury, Sun, Moon, Head, Venus, Mars and-- is that right?-- [Jupiter], Saturn [unities of the first quadrant, the One]. So, we're leaving out the-- the One, the principle of all principles, and we're working just with the Intellectual-Principle. So the circle would be enough and all the dignities inside the circle. So we're going to take this one Idea, fifth house Idea, referred to variously as Five Dhyan Buddhis, Buddhas, who in their totality constitute the jivatma (T.S. Row, "Twelve Signs of the Zodiac"). I often refer to it as the Idea of Man, transcendent Man. We're going to take that, and we're going to work with that Idea. And the consequences are really quite awesome. [30 second pause, shuffling of papers, drawing] Could look at it that way. [21 second pause while drawing] Well you (even got to) do this here. [12 second pause] No they're not circles, they're more like eggs, but they'll have to do. [42¼ second pause, shuffling around, drawing]
We'll start the easy way. [15¼ second pause while drawing] And we're working on the notion that Plotinus gave us, the hint. He says every Idea is a special and unique version of all the Ideas (Plotinus, V.9.8; Astronoesis, p. 114 ff.) -- we're working with that idea, ok. We took the tenth house Idea, alright, and we said it would have a unity, a potentiality to receive, alright, combination of these two would be its limit, and we went around that way. Now we want to try it with the fifth house Idea, which is the Idea of Man, ok. So Avery, would you start? Now look?
AS (faint): Yeah.
AD: Go ahead, start.
[44¼ second pause]
AS: Ok, well-- I guess I'll do it rather briefly since we did it a couple of times. [10½ second pause] Where to start? [22½ second pause] Ok. Well, it's the same idea that we did with the tenth house, that each Idea is a special and unique form of all the twelve of the whole Intellectual-Principle. So if we start off-- I'm just-- I'll just do it briefly, and then if there's any-- there's anything you want to fill in, well just go right ahead. So if we take this Idea, we put the Unity of the Idea in the first house, and you get the Unity of the Idea of Man. [20¼ second pause while drawing] Ok, every Idea is a Unity. So that's-- that's the first house is going to apply. [short pause] And in the second house, this-- the Idea of Man will have certain Essences, or potentialities which constitute it or which are included in it. You know, for example, justice, virtue-- the virtues, goodness, you know, all of the Ideas which are found-- all of the essences which are found in the Idea of Man. And that's the second house Idea. [9¾ second pause while drawing] And then third, the notion of Limit or Boundary. If we put together this Unity with certain of these Essences, then we get the Idea of Man as a bit-- as an individual or unit Soul, or a human Soul, which we spoke of as the Soul wedded to the Idea of Man. Ok? And then that human Soul has a certain Fourfold basis to its Being. Ok? Everything that can unfold from that Soul on four levels, either four States of Consciousness, or four levels of Being. Ok? [drawing]
Then that-- then the-- that Soul's Intellection, ok, the fifth house Idea would be its Intellection, where he [Plotinus] said in the Intellectual the Soul has a pure perception, which in the sensible world is-- which is the basis of sense perception in the sensible world, but There it's pure perception or Intellection (Plotinus, VI.7.6-7). Ok? And sixth are the Six Forces as applied to the Idea of Man, power to differentiate or break up that Intellection which the Soul has. Ok? And what the first manifestation of that Idea as objective, as it were, would be on the basis of these-- of the 36 tattvas or the 24 tattvas. Say these 24 tattvas are a base for the objectification of the-- of-- of the Idea of Man which is subjective in the Soul. And [couple words inaudible] say that. Or that these 24 tattvas embody the Idea of Man, which then gets projected into thought. So this vision, the Intellection that the Soul has, is differentiated by these Six Forces, embodied in these 24 tattvas, and finally spread out in knowledge, [14½ second pause while writing] or in the subtle state. [Note: This last sentence is talking about Ideas 5, 6, 7, and 8, which will later be seen as the Idea of Man in Soul.] So there also would be that casual form or causal to the whole fourth quadrant of all-- of-- of everything that the Soul was going to manifest. Yes it's harder. [16 second pause while drawing]
Ok? So then it's going to take the Nine Prajapatis here, the way that they're involved in the Idea of Man or the human Soul, as if they are going to manifest the Soul's vision. Ok these are the forces or the Demiurge which is going to provide the vehicles for the manifestation of the Soul's vision, of its internal vision or its internal knowledge. And then there has to be provided a material basis for that knowledge, ok, the Shape of the Material Universe, but here I guess we could say we're not talking about the material universe but we're talking about the Ideational flow which is being mani-- which will be manifest in that universe, or which is the underlie of that manifestation. The subjective states of consciousness which are going to accompany that [house 11]. And finally the-- the way that the forms in the Soul are actually congealed in the twelfth house or the sensible world. Now let me-- maybe it'd be use-- maybe it'd be helpful anyway to go around it again using the following Idea. [drawing]
[Note: See FIGURE A41 for the following.]
It seemed that if you-- if you start this analysis-- [19¼ second pause] If you start the analysis with the Idea of Man itself, ok. So let's put some planets here, ok, and go around again. If you take the Sun as the Idea of Man, or the Unity of the Idea of Man, the Sun in Leo, then the next Idea, the next house would be the Essences [drawing] which are contained in that Idea of Man, so that would be the fivefold-- the fivefold ring division that we have in the fifth house [the Five Empties], all of the Essences which are the potentialities of this Idea of Man. And the human Soul wedded to that Idea of Man is the Saturn [in Leo]. Ok. Ok, so that seems to fit pretty well. And the Soul's-- each individual Soul's Vision of that Idea of Man is a certain combination of those Essences, ok. It's wedded to a certain combination of those Essences together with the Unity of the Idea of Man, which Unifies those Essences, will give you an individual, say an individual Unit Soul, a human Soul, Saturn in Leo.
Now, this next quadrant has to be, as it were, the Being of that Soul [because in the quadrant scheme, the first quadrant is Unity, the second quadrant Being, third quadrant Soul, and fourth quadrant Manifestation or Body]. Or over here, [drawing] the Fourfold Being in terms of the Idea of Man is going to correspond to Phanes, which we had as this Mercury, the rulership Mercury in Virgo. Seems that Phanes would represent the Fourfold Being of Man. And the Intellection-- the Intellection, or the Intellectual Perception of the I-- of that Being, of Phanes-- [drawing] they would say Phanes himself contains that Intellection. Ok, that would be the second Mercury [Virgo exaltation]; the Intellection of Phanes or Fourfold Being according to the Idea of Man would be this Mercury, second Mercury. And then the Powers or Forces which are going to differentiate that vision brings us down to the Jupiter, the Jupiter in Virgo, the Six Powers of Nature. And here they're the Six Forces within the Intelligible realm. So this whole-- [drawing] all of these I-- all of these then for the Idea of Man correspond to the second quadrant, ok, we could correspond them to these dignities in the second quadrant, in Leo and Virgo. That brings us to Jupiter and the Venus [detriment and fall in Virgo], embodiment of those forces. I don't know about that Venus.
Now when you come across the line here, you come across the horizon, now you have the first place where as it were you have a basis for the objectification of that Idea of Man. Or that the 24 tattvas which are going to embody this Idea of Man objectively is represented by the Venus [rulership in Libra] here. So, 24 tattvas. And that the knowledge that those tattvas, that's embodied in those tattvas, or the knowledge that the functioning of those tattvas will spread out in knowledge would be the next dignity that knows that, the Saturn [exaltation in Libra], principle which-- which represents, I don't know, could-- I guess we could say the vision of the Idea of Man as embodied in those tattvas in some kind of total way. And that would be the eighth house Idea applied to the Idea of Man. And then (knocking on blackboard) the Nine Prajapatis, the Idea of the Nine Prajapatis in the metaphysical as applied to the Idea of Man, the Nine Prajapatis are what are going to give you a particular Being. Ok? We spoke about the Mars [detriment in Libra; Sun is fall in Libra] as a particular combination of those tattvas to constitute a particular Being, Mars in Libra, ok, which had as its basis, ok, this light, the Sun's light, the solar Sun. So these two together would represent the-- would represent for the Soul those-- the Nine Prajapatis which are going to manifest a particular Being--all the-- all the particular lives of this Soul (knocking on blackboard) that are going to become manifested in the tenth house, but here [ninth house in this scheme] would be all the particular Beings, the particular organization of these tattvas would apply over here to the ninth house Idea. Ok?
Now, next one, Mars [rulership in Scorpio], we said that the-- I have to [one word inaudible] this-- If we talk about the-- well this is the Subjective Conception in the Mind of God, or this Ideational Flow. If here we have this vision as like fixed, eternal, over here we could imagine as this Ideational flow or reasoning flow. Objectively it would be the eternal generation of the material world, but the corresponding subjective aspect would be the eternal Ideation or the continuous Ideational flow of the Soul which was getting embodied in this manifestation, or which was the underlie of this whole manifestation, so that would be the Mars in Scorpio. The particular levels of subjectivity or these lokas, these levels of consciousness in the eleventh house, subjectively here would be represented by the Head-- I'm sorry, the Part of Fortune [exalted in Scorpio], which was representing a particular level of subjective consciousness or feelings that the Soul was working with on one of these lokas. And finally, if we imagine those particular subjective states as congealed, ok, having the Moon [fall in Scorpio] now as their substance, then we'd have over here the Venus, the Venus in Scorpio. And in the twelfth house you'd have the congealing of this entire-- of the entire process. Right? Let me not call it a pro-- a process. So you have over here would represent a congealing of that Idea of Man as these fixed feeling states. And that would be subjectively corresponding to what-- possibly what we'd call the Witness which is, as it were, the embodied knower, the basis as the Moon. [few words inaudible] [drawing] so we'd have Part of Fortune, Mars in Scorpio, (Venus). Now it seems this works out pretty similarly to the way that we did the Jupiter [ninth Idea] going around.
MB: Avery?
AS: I mean they must be [couple words inaudible]
MB: I-- could I just ask a couple of basic questions [couple/three words inaudible] Did you-- is this representation of this-- (I don't feel like that.) Is it supposed to be the fifth house Idea taken around the chart or the stuff-- the second group of four houses? (Sort of dumb), I mean it looks like you're taking the planets in the second [one/two words inaudible] (I mean the question--)
AS (simultaneously): Oh I see what you're--
S (faint): Say it.
AS: Yeah.
MB (simultaneously): I mean I'm not sure I understand (at all).
AS: (Wait.) Well--
LC: That's right, which is it, is it the-- the fifth house or is it that whole second four?
AS: Don't you somehow get the feeling it seems from this if these all four are Life [Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio have Life rulerships], but somehow all of these four are concerned with working out the Idea of Man?
MB: Sure.
AS: And that just as over here, if we did it without these, Sun, all those guys [dignity planets], we did it without these planets [FIGURE 1981 0128-2], we said-- because first we're going to-- we're going to investigate the way that the twelvefold, the way the Idea of Man is a special form of the I-- of the Intellectual-Principle. Well the first quadrant of that, the wh-- as-- as a whole, the first quadrant, the first three, ok, would represent the Idea of Man itself, or its Unity. And the next three quadrants, as it were, could be conceived as working out of that Idea. Until finally, as we said, get to this-- the congealing of that Idea certain subjective feeling states. And then of course after that you'd go into the objective manifestation which would be concerned with the Demiurge. Ok, so it's just-- it's just another way of trying to schematize-- [drawing] maybe to spread out a little bit from this condensed way that-- this condensed vision of the Idea of Man, [LC: Yeah.] try and spread it out a little bit, [LC: It was--] and see how that fifth house Idea is actually in some way being worked out through the other three houses. Ok, maybe.
LC: It was-- it was difficult for me to take the rest of the planets from those other three houses and string them around. I can't-- I hear you, you know, how you connect the planet to the house and their function in relation to the Idea of Man, but I can't understand how [AS: No, you could--] you have Saturn [in Leo] in the third house [FIGURE A41]. What does that mean? I mean, what does it mean [AS simultaneously: Oh, right over there?] when you put Saturn over there or--
AS: Oh I thought that was the best one, I thought that this-- [LC simultaneously: Well that's the argument.] this one-- I mean that one seems to make the most sense of all. I mean they all make sense but this is-- [LC simultaneously: They all did.] this one really--
LC: Yes, they make sense when you say it.
AS: I think this illustrated perfectly what the third house Idea applied to the Idea of Man would mean. If you applied that third house notion--
LC (simultaneously): No.
AS: Well I'm just trying to say--
LC (simultaneously): Take away the planet. Ok.
AS: Forget about the planet, forget about this. If you applied the third house notion of Adam Kadmon, or we said the third house we spoke about as Boundary or Limit or combining the first two, the Unity and certain Essences, and what you get is individual unit Idea of Man, a unit Soul, a human Soul.
LC: Yeah, that's real good.
AS: Ok?
LC: I thought that was pretty good.
AS (simultaneously): Well? Well?
LC: But why Saturn there? I don't--
AS: Saturn in Leo, isn't that what we've spoken of as the human soul?
LC (simultaneously): Yeah but that's the third house. But, I don't understand, I just don't-- [AS simultaneously: Ok.] I just don't understand the planets well enough. I mean [AS simultaneously: Oh. Oh ok I'm sorry.] it seems like you could take any chart and put any planet anywhere. And-- (laughter)
AS: Ok. It's valid criticism but-- (laughter) but first of all-- We're over here on-- let's say we're in this third-- this sector, the Life sector of the chart. So we're not-- we're not talking about the entire metaphysical chart. Just as we did with the tenth house, we referred all of the Ideas to the notion of the mate-- of Matter. Ok? [LC assents] Now we didn't particularly do it-- you know, we didn't spread those twelve out over the whole fourth quadrant there, maybe we could have, but we applied them all to the tenth house, the tenth house Idea. Now we're applying the twelve to the Idea of Man. And so we ha-- so we're not talking about the metaphysical chart. We're using the metaphysical chart as a paradigm. We're u-- or we're trying to understand the way in which the Idea of Man is a special form of the entire Intellectual-Principle or Divine Mind, the Divine Mind consisting of all the twelve Ideas. So we're not starting with Aries per se, we were trying to understand the A-- the first house of the Idea of Man. If we were to put the Idea of Man [chart] up, the Idea of Man would have a Unity, it would have certain Essences, ok, it would have a certain Limit to it, [LC simultaneously: Right, and when we use that--] a Fourfold nature, [LC: Now we are using this--] Intellection, and so on, all the way around.
LC (simultaneously): Right, now we're using the paradigm. I mean we are saying [AS: Yes.] that the first house is Unity, the second is Essences.
AS: But just as we did with the-- with this-- with [one/two inaudible student words] the tenth house.
LC: Right, right.
AS (simultaneously): Well I said there Essences, what did Ess-- what did-- what did Pranava Aum mean with respect [LC simultaneously: Right.] to Matter? It means the potentiality to receive every and a-- any and every form. Here it means something slightly differently, it means the essences which constitute the Idea of Man. And here Limit--
LC (simultaneously): I don't (bring in) the planets. I mean I don't under-- I--
AS: Oh, ok. Well then leave that out but--
S (simultaneously): Sorry.
AD: Show them how you got the Demiurge, the particular Soul, and-- You remember that?
AS: Yeah.
AD: Remember how we got the particular Soul, how the Demiurge constructs a particular Soul? You take the ninth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth house, alright.
AS (simultaneously): Well right. And this is all prior.
AD (simultaneously): Now if you (work) vertically with the houses, alright, you get the Demiurge Intellect [FIGURE A41, Jupiter ring]. If you work horizontally, you work horizontally, you get the particular Soul [FIGURE A41, Tail ring].
AS: Uh-hm.
AD: Remember that?
AS: And we could do the same thing here.
AD: We're doing the same thing here but it's reversed, alright. To get the particular Soul you work in the house structure because you're in the Nous.
[short pause]
AS: I tried this one too, this works out very nicely.
AD: Hm?
AS: I did try this one. [few words inaudible]
AD: Well there's some questions, sure.
RG: But, I didn't-- I mean, Leslie, I think your particular question is, how do-- why do you correlate the planets in [houses] five through eight through this twelvefold chart of the Idea of Man.
LC: Right.
RG: Right?
LC: Right.
AS: Well, you see, there's some suggestion here. Maybe we should just more-- rather than that just look at what it's suggesting. For example when we did the Jupiter [ninth Idea] chart. It's almost like saying the twelvefold around that we had with the Jupiter [FIGURE 1981 0128-4-JF, inner circle]. That's almost like saying the whole last four houses [drawing] in some way are the Unity, the Essence-- you know, if we go around, the Four-- the Four Intellects. If we speak of the last four houses as the Demiurgic Intellect, then in a sense it's almost like we are spreading out or understanding the ninth house Idea, the Nine Prajapatis. 'Cause when we did that, we were investigating those Praja-- those as the Prajapatis, you know, when we did Jupiter, Tail, Mercury; and then the next quadrant was all Earth, Capricorn; and Aquarius; and then Pisces. Ok?
AD: See, so it's not haphazard, it follows a definite pattern. The idea is to find that pattern.
AS: See, the o-- the other thing is-- I mean maybe if we do it that way, we say ok well this certainly represents the Unity of the Idea of Man [FIGURES 1981 0128-2, A41]. The next one should represent the second quadrant of that Idea of Man. Ok? You see what I mean, like the power. And then the next one would be on the-- on the lower level what we would call Acquired Intellect, ok, but here what is ac-- what's the meaning of that? The 36 tattvas. The way in which this-- this Idea is going to be embodied, final-- I mean, the way in which it's going to be differentiated. And finally the fourth quadrant, as it were, of this Idea of Man, well think of what it's going to be. That's going to be not the sensible universe, not the sensible intellect, but the Universe in Thought, because we're speaking of this whole thing as subjective. So this is exactly analogous, ok, if you do-- And you'd say well, in some way then these next three houses represent, as it were, a certain spreading out of this Idea of Man in the subjective Soul.
AD: Now, try to remember, you remember the principal way we started was, think of a rubber ball for instance. This is only example, ok. Now, there's many ways to think of the rubber ball but always in terms of one of the Ideas that constitutes the rubber ball. So you think-- you think of the rubber ball just as rubber, alright, and you'd have to describe the rubber ball simply in terms of rubber and nothing else. Alright. Then you could say it has a color. Then again you have to find a description to the ball just in terms of color. You have to work one Idea at a time completely. It's going to take a little ingenuity. And there's a definite pattern the way they work out.
LC: Alright.
AD: I mean if you try haphazardly to put together some things, the internal contradictions will just destroy it before you get two or three steps of the way.
LC: I-- I like the idea of taking each house in the metaphysical chart and describing each particular Idea in a twelve-- in a twelvefold.
AD (simultaneously): In a twelvefold way.
LC: Yes I-- I mean, I can-- I can understand that in some way, not that I could do it but I can understand it and I can appreciate the benefit of it and the whole idea behind it. My-- my problem, and it remains, is taking the twelvefold and stringing the ten planets around in a way other than-- [one word inaudible] (correct me).
AS: Ok but--
[Note: See FIGURE A41 for the following.]
AD: Well look, if you look at it, for instance the Sun is a rulership.
LC: Yes.
AD: Alright? And the Empties the exaltation, and the Saturn is a part of the [LC assents] ring of Soul, alright?
LC: Right, I mean I see where they're coming from.
AD (simultaneously): Now, don't get confused. Now look, if you take the Sun and you put it as the Unity of Man, [LC: Alright, that--] alright, that would be a rulership. [LC assents] So, we would put it at the very beginning of the triad. [LC: Right.] The next thing is Intellectual. In other words those Empty spaces represent the exaltations, or the Intellectual ring, Essences in the Intellect. Now the third one is if you combine a certain number of Essences with the Idea of Man, this is going to constitute a particular or unit Soul. Saturn is Soul, third ring, belongs to the ring Soul. Now, falls into the third house. And you can go all around like that. It seems to disturb you when we make a change [LC simultaneously: Yes, I'm very disturbed.] from a ring structure [LC simultaneously: (You force me) to get my own (one word inaudible)] to a house structure.
You remember, you remember that story, the experiment about a man [Konrad Lorenz], the goose was born right next to him, and so the goose thought that was its mother. Remember that? (laughter) Well I understand-- I don't know if this is a joke or what. (laughter) So they had a goose born right next to the garbage can-- pail, and the goose thought the garbage pail was its mother and he was sitting next to it. Well what was the moral of this? (laughter) The moral of the story-- [S simultaneously: I need my garbage pail.] the moral of the story is, you see, [S: Either way (few words inaudible) (laughter)] that if you-- if you change the garbage can or the man, the goose gets very flustered and, you know, upset. (laughter) So if I change from a ring structure to a house structure--
LC: I get very upset. (laughter)
AD: You get uptight. You could do that with any one of the Ideas. That's why I told you, go home and practice on one Idea. If Being is ultimately to mean something to you, you have to practice some kind of dialectic. I don't want the criticisms in classes that I get when people talk about Being, and I think they're talking about some stone that they couldn't overturn in their garden.
RG: But, there's a peculiar question. I mean, this wouldn't apply to any one of the Ideas, right? This-- the analysis of the quadrant, the triad, looking at it in terms of the [AD: Give me an example.] twelvefold. Well, I mean it's peculiar to the-- to the Idea of Man it seems that you can string the planets from [houses] five through eight around the chart. In other words, let's say you pick, you know, another Idea, you wouldn't necessarily take the three-- the three--
AD: Well, you remember last week I mentioned the fact that I left myself-- that there's a problem coming up, and that was to be able to translate the dignities which are in the second quadrant into the circle and vice versa. And I want to be able to do that with both. This is the first breakthrough that I had with this.
RG: Oh, yeah, I'm saying this is-- this is a correlation that is peculiar to the second quadrant or five through eight or the Life planets or four-- the Idea of Man, one-- one of those, I mean it doesn't really-- it's this peculiar Idea that seems to bring out this kind of analysis, this abi-- this correlation, rather than, let's say, the tenth house Idea where you wouldn't string-- you might string ten, eleven, and twelve, I'm not-- you know, there'd be another way to do it, let's say. It's just a different way to do it. That seems to indicate that all the-- that six, seven, and eight are within the Sun in Leo and are unfolding it. [AS assents] And that's all-- I think that's all it's really bringing out. You aren't really, oh--
AD: I don't-- I don't think so. You could take the seventh house Idea and work it around and it'd be even more-- [AS: Yeah.] more comprehensive.
AS: Oh yeah. Or any other one.
RG: Yeah, I'm just saying each one is going to have a different format.
AD (simultaneously): You see, what's going to happen here is, we're going to take that, where you have Leo, Virgo, Scorpio, and Sagittarius--
AS: Libra and Scorpio.
S: Libra.
AD: Ok. Those four, alright, and we're going to show that that will be the subjective Soul or the house structure which underlies the chart that you work with. That superimposed on that chart is the cosmic gizmo, the whole fourth quadrant, superimposed on top of that, ok. And that will be what we're aiming at. Then beyond that, beyond that will be even a layer below the Soul layer, alright, where the whole first four houses will be the underlie of all of that, the-- in other words, the Intellect, the Soul, and the Body [FIGURE 1981 0128-4-JF]. So what will come-- what will eventually show is that you have this very peculiar unfoldment from the Idea of Man, that on the one hand you have the microcosm being built, the whole of the universal manifestation, alright, on the other hand you also have the subjective Soul which underlies that cosmic manifestation, alright, and that's revealed in our natal chart. Go ahead now.
AS: Well, but-- this is probably a little premature. I mean I think I see what he's-- what he's getting at. I-- which is I think part of what's happening but I don't know. It's not-- it doesn't-- Maybe I should leave it. It is peculiar to the threefold structure of the chart what we're doing, there's no doubt. I mean this-- this thing-- the thing that we did with the Jupiter stringing that around according to the four-- last four houses [FIGURE 1981 0128-4-JF, inner circle], and this according to the second third [second circle], and then eventually doing it with the first third [outer circle]. So that is-- it is a peculiar organization with the three-- with the thirds because-- well, that's just conjecture.
S (faint): Yeah, but--
AS: Because--
AD: We're going to get more surprises if we work out more of the Ideas.
AS: Well I guess what I'm saying is that I-- well, I'll leave that, this-- So we did the first house, we did it this way also.
AD: Uh-hm.
AS: Now there's some-- there's-- there's really something going on between the threefold and the fourfold, which might-- I mean, this might hint something at it. This-- the three-- the threefold division seems to work out in terms of the houses this way (knocks on blackboard), the way we've done the threefold. We haven't done many of the fourfolds but we did-- when we did this one [drawing], the One [first quadrant planets], ok, we did that one this way--Mars Venus Mercury, and then these three, and then these three, and then this [Saturn in Aries]. And we did the twelve Ideas that way, when we did it as a paradigm, whereas with the threefolds it seems to work the other way. Now, I--
AD: With threefold?
AS: Yeah.
AD: Be more (explicit).
AS: Yeah, I could. Instead of taking just the first three houses, if you take the first four houses, now you get a different organization of the chart, obviously. I mean now it's almost like you've gone from metaphysical to an ontological view. Ok? And now instead of-- here the paradigm, if we just do the first quadrant-- I'm trying to see this, the first-- the-- when we spread around the Triad to correlate with or even as the source of all the Ideas, the Ideas [writing] go around like this--one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Ok? Now, doing it according to Being though, let's suppose we did here, the third-- the second third, we're going inward this way: one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. See? If-- if we--
AD: Well--
AS: I'm going to look for--
AD: If-- if you look at the left-hand diagram that you have there, Avery, alright, [AS: Yeah.] would you put the-- any of the dignities in the sixth house prior to those of the fifth? Or those in the seventh prior to the sixth?
AS: No, when you do it by this thirds view, you're saying that the I-- this fifth house Idea is prior.
AD: Prior.
AS: Has priority.
AS: That's what I'm saying. It really does seem-- the rulership-- I mean everything goes with it because now if you're doing Being, you're bringing in the rulerships automatically. You've got Being Being Being Being [rulership planets Aries through Cancer], stops there. Now you start with Life. Ok, so this seems to represent the subjective aspect here. And that these-- it's almost in a way that the Virgo, Libra, and Scorpio are in some way a working out of this Idea of Man. I mean I-- they certainly have an existence in their own right. But looked at in this way you are giving priority to the Idea of Man, or you are giving priority to the-- to the fifth house Idea. And I-- and I don't-- I mean that doesn't-- that seems fine. When we do the sixth house Idea we're going to get a whole other arrangement of the twelvefold, [student assent] if we do the thir-- or we do the 36 tattvas, in each one.
AD (simultaneously): But you'll have-- you'll have a different arrangement because [AS: Yeah.] the definition starts off by saying that each is a special and unique version of the whole. [students assent] So you're going to see each Idea worked out differently. [AS: Right.] If they worked out all the same, then it's not going to be a special and unique version.
AS: Yeah. I was just pointing that out, that that's-- I mean there's no-- there's no particular reason for this one to have the same mean-- to work out the same way as the tenth house one, where there it's all applied to Matter. Totally different.
AD (simultaneously): (Only--) No, that's-- I don't see it that way. You have the houses: the Sun, Exaltation, and Saturn [in Leo] [FIGURE A41, first quadrant], [AS assents] alright. Now when you speak about the Demiurgic Intellect, you have the same arrangement, they work down into a house.
AS: Right. No I was talking about the tenth house Idea was different.
AD (simultaneously): Yeah. Now the tenth house Idea, when you're speaking about Saturn, Mars, and Moon, and Jupiter [in Capricorn], [AS: Yeah.] you're speaking about functioning intelligibles, you're not speaking about the Matter yet. [AS: Right.] It's what they do to the Matter. [AS: Right.] Now insofar that you're speaking about the intelligibles, they preserve their rank and their hierarchy like anything in the ring structure.
AS: Right, but I was speaking-- I was referring to the way we worked out the tenth house Idea last week, applying all twelve Ideas to the tenth house Idea.
AD: Well, we can't go too much by that because it was only a survey, a [AS: Ok.] superficial analysis. [AS: Ok.] I could work out the tenth house Idea and I think it would be more complicated than this one. This I think is easier for them to grasp insofar, first of all that they can see certain things here. [AS: Yeah, but--] The whole problem of Matter, you know-- you know the ambiguities it's going to lead to.
AS: All I was trying to-- well, ok, I'll drop the point, there wasn't any point in that, I was just trying to say that the-- that-- Well, ok, (I'll stop).
AD: We're simply following the logic of the chart.
DB: Is-- you know, when we've done the-- the Intellectual triad here, you used as a focal point the Sun in Aquarius around-- when you string the dignities of the last four houses around it.
AS: Yeah.
DB: Is there a similar focal point in this [AS: Well, I--] that would make sense [couple words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): No, that's not true because, the whole purpose of the last quadrant is the objective manifested universe, this is what's being built, and all the things that are required to build that.
[Audio File 1981 0128a Ends]
[Audio File 1981 0128b (formerly 1981 0128b vol) Begins]
AD: --universe, the Soul has to be the underlie of that. [DB: Right.] So we have to get to the subjective side of the manifested universe, which is what we're working out in the Idea of Man. It is the Idea of Man, alright, which underlies the Idea of the universe which is the Great Man. [DB: Yes.] So we're speaking about two men: we're speaking about the objective man, microcosmic man, universal man; [DB: Right.] and we're speaking about now the subjective universal man. [DB: Right, ok.] We'll bring these two together so that when you look at a chart, you can understand what the houses are doing there. [DB: Right.] Alright, so we say that-- we're saying that the Soul, or the-- is the in-- the houses indicate the differentiation of the internal structure of the Soul, and that is why they stay fixed. [DB: Right.] The objective universe is a constant flow, it never stands still. So that rotates around the fixed houses. [DB: Yes.] Ok. So we have the objective side and the subjective side of the universe. We're not ready yet-- And you people ought to realize that you are like grasshoppers, you can't stick to one point and then the next point. We first have to understand that before we start getting to the Unity of the objective manifested universe and the subjective Soul. So we do that first and then we'll worry about the third quadrant, or the first Being [triad] according to that [FIGURE 1981 0128-4-JF, outer circle].
DB: No I'm not-- I'm not trying to deal with the first triad, whatever it is. I just wanted to know, the way we've done the last four houses, stringing those dignities around the twelvefold circle, having in the center of that-- I mean, we ordinarily put the Sun in Aquarius there, right? And that these principles are going to function through it to produce the manifested, you know, phenomenal twelfth house world. All I was asking was, is the same thing going to follow through in this Life section of the metaphysical chart, so that you have one dignity there which is going to act, so to speak, as a link between it and the objective universe?
AD: Say more, David.
DB: Well, I mean we've got this whole--
AD: Are you getting that the Sun in Aquarius is the objective manifestation of the Sun in Leo which is the subjective aspect?
DB: Um-- yes, ok. Well--
AD (simultaneously): Ok, say it then.
DB: Alright. (RG laughs)
S: [couple words inaudible]
DB: Yes but, I mean the objective-- it is the objective manifestation of that, ok, but what I was wondering was, is there-- since we're dealing here in terms of the Sun, would it be correct to speak of say the Sun in Libra as being the point through which that translation is made?
AD: I'm not ready to pick up that particular problem.
DB: Oh ok, I just--
AD: What I am ready to do, and I think Avery should plunge into now is show how the underlie, subjective Soul, alright, represents one zodiac. And that-- In other words, where you have Intellect you have one zodiac, where you have Life you have another zodiac, and where you have Being you're going to find a third zodiac. So that you get some Idea of what they're speaking about when they put three zodiacs around the chart. When you look at these classical diagrams, like the Fludd diagram or something like that, you'll see that they have three zodiacs. Or they'll call it the Prime Mover, Fiery Heavens, and the Zodiac--they might use that kind of language--but you're dealing with three zodiacs. Now we can get to them one at a time. You understand in the Intellect third of the chart you have one zodiac. Now maybe Avery can show you how the other zodiac is, so to speak, in the Idea of Man, and combine the two of them. Go ahead.
AS: Well that one seem-- I mean I think there was a good point-- one of the points around here simply, but that we never took it that way, [drawing] but I think in a sense, this one, the Jupiter, Tail, and so on, is the ninth-house Idea, when we did that around [FIGURE 1981 0128-4-JF, inner circle]. But that-- I mean what we did was the ninth house Idea, we never said it, we never actually said, well now we're doing the twelve, the way that the ninth house Idea is a special form, but that's what we were doing, I think. And that--
DR: Yeah, I thought it was even mentioned. I thought that many times we said well then the ninth house is the unity.
AD (simultaneously): I thought you mentioned it a couple of times.
AS: Yeah, right, I mean-- yeah, we said that, but I mean we never explicitly said, well, what if the first house apply to the ninth house, and the sec-- well maybe we did.
DR: Well, we talked about Unity, Being--
AS (simultaneously): Yeah I know. Oh yeah, yeah I know, but I'm just saying in--
DR: (--Soul) and Body.
AS: Yeah.
S: Although it was the ninth house Idea that was being worked out, we also called those quadrants according to the Matters that were provided in the eleventh house.
AS: That's because we took this in terms of the manifestation or the objective-- um-- in terms of the Sun in Aquarius, (in other words). But I-- but the fourfold in the Sun in Aquarius would be what this Demiurgic Intellect is manifesting. It's not really a different point. I'm not sure what your point is. Say-- just say it again.
LC: These three (doesn't--)
AS: Say it again.
S: Well I just-- you know, it-- it seemed at the time we were doing that, that we were as much studying what the eleventh house was, and bringing in what preceded and followed it. [AS: Right.] Although now, by the pattern, it certainly does look like we were examining the nature of the ninth house Idea.
AS: Well, I mean, [drawing] we were examining the nature of the Demiurgic Intellect, the last four houses. And only as so far as that was the paradigm of the Sun in Aquarius that we refer to that. But originally this-- we investigated this because of some lines in Proclus that talked about the structure of the Demiurge, ok. And that is the ninth house Idea, Jupiter, the Nine Prajapatis that Assist the Demiurge. So-- I mean that's-- that's the sense that we're working out. What we're saying now is that that represents-- ok, that represents the fabric-- the principle, the leading principle of the universe, which is the leading principle responsible for the organization of all these objective sheaths, the whole-- which eventually is going to give us the whole cosmic circuit, you know, the reason-principles organizing all the material vasanas into your vehicles, which is-- This-- that whole thing is superimposed on this, ok, will be like the joining of the subjective meaning with the objective manifestation in your chart. A certain-- [drawing] certain chart will be superimposed on this and so on, which will be subjectively interpreted by the house structure. (knocks on blackboard)
LC: Are we going to give these-- we going to put the zodiac on the cusps of these three? You know, we have [AD: How so?] [one word inaudible] 1 Libra and 1 Aries and 1--
AD: Well, Leslie, let me ask you this here.
LC: Yes.
AD: First house where you have the Sun there in Leo [FIGURE A41], [LC: Yeah.] Unity of the Idea, would that be equivalent to Aries? In the way of understanding Aries.
LC: As a Unity, yes. I [AD simultaneously: Unity?] think so, yes. (And the--)
AD: Second house, Essences, would that come close to Taurus? Alright, you go around the circle and you see that you'll have the zodiac there.
AS: And I don't know which way--
[17¾ second pause while AS draws]
AD: Leslie, what's the folktale about Gemini?
LC: You have the twins in--
AD: Well the-- the immortal twins?
LC: Yeah, twins, yeah.
AD: What are the immortal twins? What two are they referring to there? [12¾ second pause] Wouldn't it be the Idea of Man and the Essences which together combine, constitute this Immortal? [11½ second pause] You can do the same with Taurus, the Bull. Did you ever hear of Nandi, Shiva's Bull? Use these-- use this material, it's your background. Pick up a book in zoology, read about animals. [9 second pause] Maybe we ought to do that just the next class, leave out-- you know, have animals.
S: Can we bring a cat?
AD: See what principles they embody. Well at any rate, Avery, you want to show the derivation of the zodiac there?
AS (chuckling): I'd love you to show you the derivation of the zodiac.
AD: Well, the correspondences.
AS: Ok, now I-- we could we use one of two different diagrams. I'm not sure which-- which ones you want to use, if you want to use the Jupiter ring or the Tail ring or--
AD (simultaneously): No, use that one and translate it into the regular zodiac. The unity of the Idea of Man is equivalent to Aries.
AS: Ok. And then the Essences, the Potentialities or Samskaras would be Taurus. So that makes some sense. Hm? What's the problem?
LCG: I just thought that [one/two words inaudible] (we've been saying) that the Idea was contained in the house and not the planet, so I'm [couple words inaudible]
AS: No but--
LCG: Well you just-- you just-- You know where-- you see where my confu-- you see where I'm (getting lost) [couple words inaudible]
AD: There are no houses, Lauren. It's just a way of talking. These are directions in space. There's no houses. Otherwise you'll be reading celestial mansions, and you go up there and you think you're going to open a door and go into a palace.
S: Yeah. (laughter)
S: (Not bad.)
AS: The par-- or the paradigm for the Grand Man is going to be the same as for the-- the microcosm. You could say it that way.
LCG: Now go ahead. Go ahead.
AS: Ok, well--
AD: Well, Gemini, the next one.
AS: Ok well, we just did that one, the human Soul we said it's a certain-- the union of the two-- the two Twins there. I guess it would be the absolute Indeterminacy of Life with the Idea of Man that's wedded to it. So those two together would be a hu-- a human Soul would have those two parts of it, the human, Man, and the Soul. Ok, so, I guess that would-- that would [few words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Plotinus is going to call that a 'Unit Soul,' that [couple words inaudible] he's going to refer to that as a unit Soul. He's not going to call it universal or absolute but unit Soul.
S (faint): [couple words inaudible] ask for apology?
AS: Ask for an apology?
S (faint): Ok.
AS: That was what they were saying. Look, I mean, we shouldn't have trouble doing the correlations since, again, the paradigm of this (knocking on blackboard), of the I-- of the-- of this is the twelvefold, is a twelve-house, the twelve metaphysical.
DB: Yeah. Is the zodiac here--
AS: Don't ask which one it is.
DB: Oh, ok.
S: But [couple words inaudible] back.
DB: Could I ask about his Venus?
AS: Go on Dave, I'm sorry.
DB: No I'm just-- I'm-- I'm a little bit lost because we started out with a metaphysical interpretation of the chart, ok, and then from that the translation--
AD (simultaneously): No, that's an ontological interpretation.
DB: Ok, ontological. We translated that into the Idea of Man, alright. From the standpoint of one Idea, all twelve of those Ideas are inherent within it. And now from that, we're moving down another step again. Right? I mean is that correct?
AD: I don't know what you mean moving down another step.
DB: Ok, good. What-- what is it that we're doing here? (student snickers) I mean, are--
AD: What is it Avery's trying to do now?
DB: Yes.
AD: He's going to make correspondences so that you can show that the zodiac, alright, is being symbolized by those four signs.
AS: And I think-- I think-- you know, David, the way they always say that the zodiac [signs]-- what are those animals, the divine animals, and they say well those are like a splitting up of the Idea of Man. If you could consider all of those signs in their totality, you'd have Man. I mean-- you know, like the Aries, the Taurus. Steiner even, on a lower level, Steiner had this idea that like each of those particular animals was developing a peculiar quality, you know, historically, that was-- that went into the constitution of Man. [DB: Yeah.] Like the Aries or the Taurus, if you investigated those-- the essence that that animal was developing or embodying to the fullest, the totality of all those qualities or essences would be, as it were, the Idea of Man. [DB: Right.] So I think he's trying to see here how the zodiac itself [drawing] is derived from this Idea of Man, or corresponds to. Let's not say derived. I don't know if it's derived. Or, if we took the Idea of Man and broke it up or differentiated it in a twelvefold way, that that would correspond to the way that the zodiac itself is a twelvefold.
DB: Yes, but-- I mean is it-- are you saying--
AS: Break up.
DB: --that each four Ideas of the metaphysical chart--in this case Leo, Virgo, Libra, and Scorpio--is a unique expression of all twelve Ideas, I mean, is that-- is that-- I'm-- I'm sorry to be so blockheaded but-- I mean since you're doing it with the dignities--
AD: Could you repeat again what you said?
DB: Well, are you saying that the-- that every four Ideas, or in this case the Life [Life-rulership Ideas], you know, that the Life of the ontological chart is a special and unique form of all of the Ideas? I mean is that what you said?
AD (simultaneously): Life?
DB: Yeah, I mean [few words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): No, we were saying that the Idea of Man was a special and unique version, not Life.
DB: Ok, well we're corresponding it now to the-- Avery's correspondening-- corresponding, I'm sorry, the dignities here from the Sun in Leo to the Moon and Venus in Scorpio.
AS: You could leave out the dignities, do with the Ideas.
DB: Ok.
AB: Maybe the confusion could be expressed this way, or at least my confusion. There seemed to be a certain circular reasoning or--
AD: No, it's not circular, just wipe out everything there.
AS: Cir-- yeah, circle.
AD: Alan, wipe out everything there, and just work with the Ideas that you have in those twelve houses. Will that give you a zodiac?
AB: Yes. There's no doubt--
AD: That's all that we're saying.
AB: However--
AS: No, I know, you don't like-- (All these are) [one word inaudible] Ok.
AB (simultaneously): But the reason I have is that we got the-- we got twelvefold Idea of Man to begin with by corresponding it with the twelve signs, and now we're saying we can get the twelve signs back out of it. Well of course [AS simultaneously: Put the twelve signs.] you can, that's how you got it to begin with. That's all I meant by circular reasoning.
AS: Yeah well--
AB: I mean I-- but I do understand you--
AD (simultaneously): But-- but isn't-- isn't that just what you want? You want [AS simultaneously: That's right.] to stay within your premises?
AS: (Good.)
AB: Ok, but it seems that--
AD: Instead of being a virtue now it's a defect.
AS: Right.
AB: No.
AS: That's not saying--
AB (simultaneously): But it seem that we're saying something different because the zodiac you're drawing out of it now is not the same zodiac of the twelvefold, the T. Subba Row Ideas because--
AS (simultaneously): Not the metaphysical chart.
AB: Because you're deriving one of the three zodiacs now. So it had the [one word inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): But what do you-- what do you understand by zodiac?
AB: Well I think that's why I'm confused because we have these twelve Ideas that we got from T. Subba Row, we have twelve houses, and we have twelve signs. Now at least in my understanding they've been fudged together to a great degree.
AD: They've been what?
AB: Mixed together all along. (some laughter) And now we're trying to distinguish them and it's bringing out--
AD: That's exactly, that's exactly what we're trying to do, we're trying to find the meaning of everything in the chart, just a plain ordinary natal chart. I want to find out what every line, every drop, every cross, every symbol means.
AB: Ok so now--
AD: And I don't feel like a darn idiot when I'm looking at a chart and I'm wondering what is that house all about. And for ten years I looked at a chart and don't know what a house means.
AB: Ok, now we have these twelve houses, and now we're deriving the meaning of the zodiac out of that.
AD (simultaneously): No, we have the twelve Ideas.
AS: Twelve Ideas.
AB: (Look) we have the twelve Ideas and we're deriving the meaning of the zodiac, and that thing is from that.
AS: You know, the zodiacal (self).
AB (simultaneously): So the question is, how-- what is [AS simultaneously: Whole thing.] the difference between a zodiacal sign and an Idea? Maybe that's my confusion. How are they different? Because until now I haven't ever really seen the distinction.
AD (simultaneously): Well it seems that the zodiacal sign is variable, doesn't it? I mean it can be applied at different levels within that metaphysical wheel. Whereas the Ideas can't be altered.
AB: What do you mean by a different level, is that in a-- in a-- in--
AS: Move them around, you can--
AB (simultaneously): In a-- in a regular chart you can--
AD: You can move them around [AB assents] horizontally or vertically.
AB: Ok, but-- but in my understanding I had always associated those zodiacal signs with the Ideas. So now the problem is in disassociating them, and seeing how they're really different, (figure out) what that means.
AD (simultaneously): Oh I always have to deal with your association. I know that. (student snickers) I have the same problem too, I got to deal with the associations which were superimposed, you know, and which condition my thinking, I-- That's the whole point, we got to throw all that out. And find out what these things mean. What does a house mean?
AS: But, in any case, what-- well it seems what we're doing also is that the same-- the same-- these twelve Ideas, or the Idea of Man as this twelvefold is also going to be the basis for the actual zodiac. I mean, you could even take it on the lowest level of the sensible zodiac I suppose, where this is in the twelfth house and we always say well the-- [drawing] these-- within the cosmic structure even these zodiacal Ideas are structuring the manifestation in some way, according to these twelve Ideas, and represent these forces which are organizing the material vehicles. Your vehicles are going to have to correspond subjectively also, otherwise you'd be inhabiting, you know-- you'd be in-- you'd come into manifesta-- into this vehicle and be a loony bin, you-- there'd be no way the Soul could interpret the experience if there was no correlation. I mean if the for-- if these forces that build up your vehicles didn't correspond to the Idea which your Soul had within itself, wouldn't make any sense.
AD (simultaneously): Yes, but Avery, the point I was making was if we put on the first house, if we put the notion or the Idea of a one, the One, alright, [AS assents] and Infinity and Bound, or Samskaras and Limited, alright, we have not-- we have not submitted to the indignity of saying this is what Aries means. Aries could never possibly ever fully manifest the meaning of a One.
AS: Right. We're scaling it down.
AD: That's all we're doing all the time.
AS: Yeah well, I mean-- I mean even to do--even to do this is to scale down the Absolute. I mean that's not--
AD (simultaneously): Alright, so if we took-- if we took the whole of a universe, if we took even the whole of universal manifestation, we would have to say insofar that that is a "one," alright, that implies the Idea of Aries.
AS: Right. Now--
AD: And we could do the same all the way down here, a Mundane God, we say that is a one, and we could apply the same-- the same kind of reasoning to it.
AS: Right, now--
AD: So what is variable, Alan?
AB: Well, I would agree that the signs are variable. But the meaning of the I--
AD (simultaneously): Yes, the signs, the planets, the aspects, that's always variable. [AB simultaneously: But the meaning--] But notice, the house structure always remains fixed.
S (faint): Yeah.
AB: And the meaning of each Idea always remains in itself.
AD: Yes.
AS: But-- but you see-- [S: But--] but Anthony-- well I can--
AB: Go ahead, Avery.
AS: See, that's-- I think that's why it's-- at the risk of (creepy--) It seems to imply-- what you're saying though seems to imply that actually the derivation of the zodiac is from the Jupiter ring [FIGURE 1981 0128-4-JF, inner circle] rather than the Idea of Man ring [second circle, also FIGURE A41]. Now, there may be-- it may be that those correlate also, and that seems that's a different problem, the correlation of the-- the way we did the Idea of Man with the way that we did the Jupiter ring. But if the signs are part of what we're calling the whole structure of the cosmos, in this manifestation which is going to be imposed on the Idea of Man, then I-- it's not really clear why we're not deriving it from the meanings of the Jupiter ring. I mean not that there's ultimately a difference but if you look to the direct prior to the zodiac-- the zodiacal Ideas, I don't really see why it wouldn't be the-- the Jupiter. Unless you're saying that our-- that zodiacal Ideas actually means our interpretation of that already, unless you're saying that when we talk about Aries and so on, that already is a superimposition of the Idea of Man on the cosmic manifestation. And so to say Aries, Taurus, and so on, is already coming from the point of view of the Idea of Man. There's no Aries per se, it's-- as it were it's-- that too is our-- it's for us.
AD (simultaneously): I always give priority to the Ideas because [AS assents] nothing can be communicated without them. [AS simultaneously: So--] Language would stop dead.
AS: Uh-hm. So in that-- in that sense, even the cosmos, even the cosmic circuit itself in some way is already being taken as an embodiment of the Idea of Man.
RG: Ok. But that-- that point only speaks to the fact that there is a prior twelvefold of the Ideas that's prior to the zodiac, and it seems to me it's also prior to the houses, and there's no-- I don't see any justification yet for saying that that twelve-- that prior twelvefold is symbolized by the houses as opposed to the zodiac. I would say the houses and the zodiac both are manifestations of that prior twelvefold differentiation.
AD: No, I can't buy that.
RG: I know, yeah, I know.
AD: Symbolically I can't [RG simultaneously: I know.] buy it. First of all, signs are variable.
RG: But what do you mean the signs are variable?
AD: They [signs] move around the houses, the houses don't move around the signs.
RG: In-- I mean, but in terms of-- in terms of a natal chart, I could see-- I mean you're-- there's a certain sense in which the signs move around the houses. But there's also a certain sense in which the houses move also and rotate.
AD: I could never see and understand what you're referring to. Because what you're doing is you're taking out from underneath our discourse the meanings that logic, so to speak, is based on Being.
RG: I don't-- I don't see, why am I doing that, I don't understand that. Why-- I mean-- why am I doing that if I'm just saying that that might not be embedded in the houses? The logic still remains. It's just the symbol might not be the same.
AD: I don't follow you.
RG: I'm not saying anything about the underlying logic, I'm only asking for the appropriate symbol for that logic.
AS: Saying the same thing he always says. He understands what you're saying principally. He doesn't understand--
AD (simultaneously): I don't think so, I don't think he understands what I'm saying principally. What I'm [AS simultaneously: No, that's what he's saying.] saying principally is that the first Idea, the One, has to be a presupposition of our understanding anything.
RG: I complet-- I--
AD: The second, third, [AS simultaneously: Yeah, he--] and fourth Idea go in that order.
RG: I completely agree with that.
AD: Let-- let me say it once more.
RG: Go ahead.
AD: That the Ideas ontologically determine our thinking for us. Well then what could be more fixed than that?
RG: Nothing could be more fixed than that.
AD: Then what are we talking about?
RG: We're try-- we're talking about the symbolism in the chart of how that fixity appears.
AD: Fine. How does it appear?
RG: That's the question. I mean you're saying that that's symbolized by the struct-- by the house structure.
AD: By the Idea structure.
RG: Ok. If we stay at that level, nobody-- there's no argument. We agree it's by the Idea structure, by the twelvefold Ideas. And we could-- this-- we could talk about what those Ideas are. But then when we try to symbolize them in the chart and say well, either they're represented by the houses or by the signs or both.
AD: Oh no, no, no, we don't say it's represented either by or-- We-- we're pinning down precisely what it represents.
RG: Yeah I know, that's the question, those are our choices. (student snickers) You're opting for the house-- for the houses as representing them.
AD: I-- you see, Richard, you missed the point again that I'm saying. [RG: Got (one word inaudible)] I think I-- I think I have to repeat this.
RG: Ok.
AD: House structure simply means the differentiation of meaning in a hierarchical order, alright, of what the Ideas are. I don't think you understand me!
RG: I don't un--
AD: If there is to be any communication, if there's to be any universal knowledge that can be communicated between one person and another, if there's to be the transmission of any kind of understanding, what has to be first granted--now follow--is a fixed order in the very nature and hierarchy of the Ideas. Now if we can't understand that, let's not go anywhere, let's stop right here and now. [RG: I (one word inaudible)] Before I can talk about Richard, I'm presupposing the Unity of Richard. [RG: I uh--] That's my house structure!
RG: Well that's the problem! I have no problem with the first part. I-- we agree on everything you said up till the last phrase.
AD (simultaneously): Until I say "house"?
RG: The question is in the symbolism, not in the-- not in the-- in the principal understanding, in the understanding of the principles that there are twelve-- that there are prior principles to any-- any manifestation.
AD: Yes.
AS: Why do you say the house structure is not fixed? In what way-- in what [RG simultaneously: I think--] way is it not fixed?
RG: I think you could come up--
AS (simultaneously): I mean aside from everything that, you know, we might have done before in astrology, I mean, [few inaudible RG words simultaneous with AS] in what way-- in what way is the house system not fixed?
RG: But in a similar way the sign system is-- I mean Aries may move, but it means what it means, just as much as the first house means what it means.
AD: But Aries could be referring to the Unity of a Soul, and could be fer-- could be referring to the unity of a bench, could be referring to the unity of Matter, [RG simultaneously: But it always refers--] could be referring to any Unity.
RG: Exactly, but it always re-- it always refers to the "Unity of".
AD: Yes.
RG: Ok, in that sense--
AD: But then you have to keep that variable so you could go around the houses.
RG: I agree. I agree that the Aries can be applied to any of the houses.
AD: That's true.
RG: And any of the houses can manifest any of the twelve signs.
AD: Yes. And the first thing it would have to do to manifest anything would be that it would have to have this order. So your Samskaras in the second house have to have a Unity to begin with. So you can put Aries there and it'll make sense. Someone who has Aries in the fir-- in the second house is not referring to the unity or the identity of the-- of Man. He's referring to the identity and unity of his samskaras which make him to be what he is.
RG: Ok. Well-- ok, but the unity that's referred to in Aries--here's the problem--the Unity that's referred to in Aries, and the Unity that's referred to in the first house, there are-- we have these two Ideas of Unity. One re-- seems-- I mean I still-- I don't get the distinction. I don't get the force of the-- of the symbolism to see what you're saying, that--
AD: Let's put it this way then, alright? Maybe this might help. Unity per se, alright, is in the realm of Idea, in the realm of Being. Any other Unity which can be manifested, like the Unity of Soul, alright, anything below that Unity-- I mean the principle of Unity as an Idea, alright, this is what the Aries would be referring to. So if you want to speak about the Unity of Soul, alright, you'd be referring to Aries. That's all. It's a way of handling the symbolism so that you could cover all your premises.
But more important than that I think is to understand what we're saying--and this is an argument that's been going on for 3000 years--without the Ideas, there's no possibility even of discourse. And if they are not given priority over everything else, we might as well remain silent like the Vedantins. We'd have nothing to say. The other thing too is to grasp the awesome notion of the Ideas. You see, here's a word that I would say breeds contempt in us. Why? Because of the familiarity--everybody thinks he knows what an Idea is. Well I'll tell you here and now, no one here in this room knows what an Idea is. You can't. First of all, it belongs to God, it's part of God's wisdom. And to tell me that you know God's Ideas, you can see what I have to think of you, well then you gotta be better than Him. They're not concepts. We went through this discussion, you remember, with Proclus.
RG: That's not the problem.
AD: No. That is the problem. The fixity, the hierarchy of Ideas in terms of Being, and then the transposition that could take place on all the lower levels of reality because we have this variable symbolism of the zodiac.
But I can't bring the Idea of Unity down to this world without destroying the notion or the Idea of Unity. But Aries can do that. Aries can transpose the meaning of Unity to any variety of things. It means beginning, head, principle. So in any one of those houses I could-- I could place it and then that house becomes meaningful.
RG: Granted, sure.
AD: Well then what's the problem?
DR: Anthony, I think maybe-- I may be wrong, but maybe I think that Richard's problem is that the houses also have a mundane interpretation.
AD: Hm?
DR: That the houses also have a mundane interpretation.
AD: Why don't we wait till we get to that? Why don't we let Avery proceed, and show what we're doing, alright, the equation we made, call that the second zodiac which is going to underlie the first zodiac, then take out the symbol book, any symbols you want--Jones, anyone you want--and see if the system works. See if the system works. If I can't get down to-- if I can't find epistemology in my ephemeris, I'll throw this whole thing away. When I open that ephemeris I want to know what my mind is doing tomorrow, to some extent. And that's [AS simultaneously: Anthony--] why you open it too.
AS: Um-- This may be-- the-- I don't know. If that--
AD: Let Avery finish and the perception that arises, alright, you'll see on the one hand the subjective Soul, on the other hand the objective manifestation of Universal Man, the two of them coinciding together, alright, the one revolving on top of the other, so to speak. And then you'll begin to see the Idea of Man down at this level, not up there, the Idea of Man down at this level. And you begin to get an Idea of the awesomeness of the Power of an Idea. Read Proverbs 8, by the way, if you have a little time tonight.
[short pause]
S (faint): That is so funny.
AS: What?
S: What is so funny?
S: It's ok.
AS: My self (would be--)
AD: Avery, would you make the translation, the sign?
AS: I'd like to do that. But, gotta get one thing clear first. (RG laughs) Otherwise-- now--
AD: You remember the other one? Someone here told me that I have no right to say that the first house represents Parasamvit--no symbol could take the place. I never said it did. I never said that a cup of water is equivalent to the water I'm drinking. I can do anything I want with symbolism as long as the logic is coherent within itself.
S (faint): Go ahead.
S (faint): Uh-hm.
AS: Now-- Now we just did the Idea of Man here. (knocking on blackboard) Now this is going to be the basis for the house structure. And what we're trying to see is that the twelvefold is also the basis for these twelve-- the twelve signs, right. I mean is that-- is that the way you're proceeding? See I-- this may be getting away a little from the point but, I don't know, I keep thinking of these and trying to understand these as say-- although it doesn't help with this if you don't know what those are.
AD: I'm sorry?
AS: I keep trying to think of these-- (some laughter) the way you said that these-- the zodiac is what's going to transpose the meaning of the-- the meaning of the Ideas into manifestation. It seems that these come very close to the meanings of the Mundane Gods that we gave also, [AD: Yeah.] that the Jupiter, Vesta, [drawing] and so on going around are very close to the meaning of what we mean by these. And that's why-- Ok. It's just that I-- if we-- [short pause] Ok, well we started applying the twelvefold. There's some question though-- oh ok. I'll leave that. See-- I can't leave it. (laughter) This is-- this is a view of the subjective on which this-- the whole cosmic manifestation is going to be superimposed. And we saw the origin of the twelvefold subjectively in terms of the house, or in terms of the Idea of Man. Now here we're trying I think to see the way those twelve are embodied in these-- in the powers of the zodiac, ok, the way the twelvefold is-- the way that the twelve Ideas are also the origin of the zodiacal, of the zodiacal arrangement. Unless I'm saying that wrong. I don't-- I just don't want to bring up the touch-- Ok, well let's just go on.
So we said this represents the Unity. Aries represents Unity. Now the question is, do you want to say that it represents the Unity of the Idea of Man? Well, you'd only say that if you had Aries in the first house. If you have Aries in the second house, it's going to represent the Unity of your Samskaras or your Essences. [AD assents, faint] If you have Aries someplace else--
AD (simultaneously): So Unity belongs to what, the house or the sign?
S (very faint): First house.
AS: Well, which house, which--
S: Both.
AS: The first house is the Unity of the Idea of Man, ok. The sign of Aries, though, does refer to some kind of a Unity. So both of them have the notion of Unity.
AD: Yes.
AS: One-- I think what I'm trying to say, it seems if we follow the logic of what we're saying, one should refer to some kind of Unity subjectively, and the other one should refer to some kind of Unity in terms of objective manifestation.
AD: Fine.
AS: For example, on the model of-- we'd say each individual Soul is a Unit Soul, but when we did the Four Intellects, the objective Soul also was a Unity. And we looked for its Unity in the first quadrant of that vesica, the Demiurgic vesica as it were, given by Sagittarius [FIGURE 1981 0128-4-JF, inner circle]. Whereas the subjective Unity is given by Leo [second circle, also FIGURE A41]. So right there, I mean that's like a-- you know, right there you have that split. [RG: Ok.] Does that-- does that make any sense? In one case, he's speaking about the Unity given by the Demiurge to the objective vehicles, in the other case you're talking about the Unity given subjectively by the Idea of Man. And that Demiurgic--
RG/S(?) (simultaneously): Question is, which is which.
AS: Well, that may be-- I think the claim here-- pretty obviously what the claim is, is that Aries as a Unity is referring to the objective-- the Unity of an objective manifestation, [AD: Yes.] and that the first house is the Unity of the Idea of Man. Now, you might disagree with that but that's-- [RG simultaneously: I know that, yeah.] I think that's the presupposition of what's-- of what we're saying.
S: (And--)
RG: Could we define a little clearer the subjective and the objective? I think [couple words inaudible]
AS (simultaneously): Well, the way I was understanding it (knocking on blackboard) is that in this case, you have the Saturn-- the Saturn in Leo [FIGURE A41, third house] principally is wedded to the Idea of Man. It's-- this is like its vision, its internal vision of the Idea of Man. [RG assents] Ok? And it's like everything that happens in your vehicles now-- your vehicles are superimposed on that, one life after the other. You hold-- if you look the chart with your de-- with the degrees and the planetary system and so on, ok, that's like that individual-- like a reason-principle, objective vehicles imposed on that Idea of Man. Everything that's going on in there. Every time-- every time there's some transits and something, that vehicle is being-- what do you call it-- modi-- you have a bodily mod-- the psycho--- psycho-physical organism is being modified, ok, and it's that which this Idea is going to interpret. So this remains completely subjective as it were, and this refers to the objective manifestation.
LCG: Would you put that in the eleventh house of this obje-- of this objective soul vehicle? Would you put those Ideas, like the zodiacal Ideas, Aries, Taurus, and the constellations in the --
AS: No, I don't know, I seem to think they're-- this primarily is coming from the Demiurge. But again there may be some-- I don't know.
RG (simultaneously): And what do we mean in this interpretation by the Ideas?
AS: Well, that's-- that was a hard point 'cause this is going-- there's two ways, it's a two-way street. On the one hand, something goes on, some planet gets hit here in your chart and it evokes a certain meaning from the subjective. On the other hand, something that's in the objective universe is teaching the Soul too, something of that reason-- that objectively embodied reason-principle is being assimilated to the Soul. So it seems that there's some kind of a-- you know, I mean, or-- depending on which way you look at it, either there's a superimposition of meaning on the objective events here that are being activated by the cosmic circuit, or you could say the cosmic circuit is activating these reason-principles which are the objective universe which is in-forming the Soul. Now-- I-- that problem we-- we left alone unless you want to--
AD: Well if you don't first present as much as you can, as much as we know, alright, [AS assents] you can't pick up the particular problems.
AS: Yes, I know, but these questions keep coming up.
DR (simultaneously): Yes, Avery, I'm not even sure that the--
AD: They don't know what you're talking about unless you first give them a presentation of what we did.
AS: Ok. I'm sorry.
DR: Avery--
AD: Then they could criticize.
DR: Even from a-- from around the whole two charts that you're superimposing it, I'm starting to get there's one coming from the last third, and one coming from the middle third. Before you derive--
AS (simultaneously): Well I first thought that's what we were doing but I'm-- I'm now not sure. What you said is quite exact as far as I could understand.
DR (simultaneously): You just-- you just want to call them objective and subjective, that's what you--
AS: Fine, I want to say, this is a picture of those Leo, Virgo, Libra, and Scorpio [FIGURES 1981 0128-2, A41], [AD simultaneously: Ok, alright.] ok, the way that's going to be the ground.
AD (simultaneously): Now erase-- erase the board, Avery, erase the board, alright, and spread out-- spread out Leo to Scorpio.
AS: Yeah. You mean in a circle.
AD: And all you have to do is put twelve houses.
AS: Right.
AD: That spreads out from Leo to Scorpio.
AS (simultaneously): Yeah. Well this is-- Now you see, this is like a whole backdrop, the Soul's vision, or the way the Soul contains the Idea of Man, just like you have a blank piece of chart paper. Ok now comes the whole of the objective manifestation on that. The-- let's consider it as the twelfth house 'cause that's really where the thing's going to happen.
AD (simultaneously): Well-- Let's say from houses nine through twelve, the whole [AS simultaneously: Ok.] is going to be [AS simultaneously: Imposed on it.] plastered on top of that [FIGURE 1981 0128-4-JF, second and inner circles]. Now, there's an interesting quote, Avery, you remember the one that Plato uses in Book IX (588c–589b)? He says-- [AS: Yeah.] Plato says something like this, he says, "Let's make [AS simultaneously: Threefold man.] for ourselves an image of Man, [AS: Yeah.] but not with stone but with words," alright. [AS: Yeah.] And he starts off about describing the lion, [AS: The lion.] you know, alright, the kingly "I." He says and then [AS simultaneously: From the man.] from Leo to Scorpio we'll extend the hydra-headed beast, the beast full of many desires, alright, and then the last was Aquarius, where the Man will have to incorporate into himself the kingly "I" and this hydra-headed beast of many desires. So we're saying that's he's speaking about the subjective Soul and not the objective manifestation. Because he does that in the Timaeus.
RG: But then why in the quote is it the-- is it the-- is it the Leo?
AD: Hm? I'm sorry?
RG: Why does Plato then use the signs of the zodiac if he's referring to the subjective Soul in that quote?
AD: Why does he use it?
RG: Yeah, according to your interpretation that's the objective side.
AD: Why don't you read Book IX? In the Timaeus he builds up the whole construction of the objective universe and then in Book VI and VII [Republic] he speaks about the gnostic function of the Souls, alright, what it is the Soul knows, what the Soul is, and he's taking you into the subjective realm. Alright, so we're saying that that's-- instead of saying a universally pervasive spirit, alright, the Atma consciousness, we said, no, that's not enough. We're going to differentiate the internal structure of this spirit and we're going to say the first house represents the Unity of the Idea of Man, and we go around like that. So we have differentiated the internal structure of the subjective Soul, the same way that we differentiated the external objective Soul, house by house, sign by sign, until we found out what an-- Now we're doing it with the subjective Soul. So we put all the mean[ings]--
[Audio File 1981 0128b (formerly 1981 0128b vol) Ends]
[Audio File 1981 0128c (formerly 1981 0128b) Begins]
AD: --which would correspond to the Libra, and the Pisces would correspond to the Scorpio. So that the water s[igns]-- the elements are correctly superimposed on the Soul meaning. There will be the possibility of a transmission in terms of Matter per se. But we're running ahead of the story.
AS: How about I do it real quick, I-- just to say it real quick.
AD: Yeah now--
AS: Do it right. Ok? (laughter)
AD: Alright. Just put down 1 to-- 1 through 12, [AS assents] the house meanings, and those are the Ideas we got there. That all we're doing.
[short pause while AS writes]
AD: Ok.
AS: Now that's-- now we say that's the background for the whole of cosmic manifestation. Now, unless you're saying something a little bit different, if we now take the zodiac, and then of course we're going to have the planetary spheres and the sublunary and so on, all the vasanas.
AD (simultaneously): Alright, then why don't we do this here, Avery?
AS: Yeah.
AD: Put the zodi-- I mean, put the seven spheres, the seven spheres, ok.
AS (simultaneously): Yeah, that's what I wanted to do.
AD: You got your seven spheres inside there [FIGURE A46].
AS: That's why I said the image is really in the twelfth house, as it were. I mean it's true the whole four-- the last four [signs], but--
AD: All imagery is going to be in the twelfth house.
AS: The zodiac, as it were, that we're familiar with is going to be the image within the twelfth house and the planetary spheres.
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, put seven circles there. Make sure that, you know, we make it as obvious as possible. Now you remember we put each planet there, the Saturn, Jupiter.
AS: So suppose we put Saturn--
AD (simultaneously): And we said each planet, alright, has a fabricative and a gnostic aspect. Six of one, six of the other. [few inaudible AS words simultaneous with AD] These are simultaneously functioning everywhere.
AS: [writing] Six [one/two words inaudible] Six of one, half dozen of the other.
AD: Now we'll be-- yeah. Alright. Alright, that's the plan, ok.
AS: Now--
S: I don't--
AD: I'd like you to try to interpret a chart without the houses.
S: [few words inaudible]
AS: Now, the suggestion seems to be-- I mean if we could move this wheel around so it wasn't sitting like this, we, you know-- that would be what's actually happening as it were, the Aries, Taurus, and so on. And that was the pro-- that's really the point of the thing. We've got-- what Saturn-- See we had this whole long description, we said well, you have this-- you have the immaterial reason-principles represented by Aries, Taurus, and so on. Originally you had the one reason-principle of the universe (Plotinus, III.2.16, IV.4.11), which, filtered down as it were, gets more and more stratified until in the twelfth house-- [drawing] but we still have these-- the image of that, these twelve, the reason-principle of the universe broken up in a twelvefold. And all the planetary functioning is indicating the way that these-- these reason-principles are organizing certain combinations of material vasanas which are in the Earth's atmosphere, the Earth itself having vasanas or traces left behind in fire, earth, air, and water. And all this is going on. So there-- it does-- it does imply that in the cosmos itself there are these-- this twelvefold meaning, zodiac, which is actually organizing the manifestation which the functioning of these planets is fabricating here in the Earth.
Now, you put-- you have an individual native's chart, and that's-- all of that functioning is going to be superimposed on to the Cognitive Isness, or on that Soul which is conjoined with the Idea of Man, ok. And, that's fixed in a way. That's not part of the cosmic circuit. I mean, that's another way to say it. The Soul itself, the pure Soul and its vision isn't part of the motion of the cosmos.
AD: Never was.
AS: I mean he says that in many places, he says well there's a part of us that does get affected by the cosmic circuit, and of course we are of a twofold nature. But then there's the Authentic Man which is untouched by all this (Plotinus, II.3.9). It isn't in motion, ok, and really is in some way behind or outside of the cosmic motion.
RG: That was [couple words inaudible] [AS simultaneously: Gets embodied.] Saturn in Leo, right, contemplating the Intellectual-Principle.
AS: Yeah but then we have all these quotes which say that in fact the Soul's perception is the basis of all the perception that happens here. So, it's-- I mean on one hand yeah you could say it's the Saturn in Leo's vision, but somehow it has to be right here with the cosmic manifestation, or that Soul is not going to have any experience of it. If we can't show how the Soul brings its inner vision to the cosmic manifestation, then the Soul isn't going to have any experience of that cosmic manifestation. Ok that-- I mean that we would agree on. But so this symbolism is trying to say-- show the way in which the Soul does bring its inner vision to the cosmic manifestation, and somehow they-- Ok, then there's that two-- either the one is superimposed or the other brings out the meaning. I mean-- Well-- [drawing] Now, Anthony, I think-- what you wanted to do is go around with these signs, just with the signs, rather than the houses and see how--
AD (simultaneously): No I want to see if they have some idea of what we're saying, what we're talking about. 'Cause the first thing is to give a presentation, as faulty as it is, as much like a [one word inaudible] and lacks-- it doesn't have all the finesse of detail. But the basic idea is what we want to present. We'll work out the problems. But there's no sense criticizing until we do have some presentation there.
SD: If I understand what you're saying then there are-- you're going to say there are three zodiacs [FIGURE 1981 0128-4-JF]. One of them you're correlating with the objective meanings which were symbolized by the playing out of the planets nine through twelve [inner circle]. And it's in some ways an embodiment or a representation of the meanings of the sign with particularly the Demiurgus.
AD: Yeah, from Sagittarius to Pisces [AS drawing] the ancients refer to that as the seat of generation. That's where you-- that's where manifestation occurs.
SD: Yes. A certain zodiac gets generated, as it were, or is emblem-- is the emblem of the meaning inherent in those four signs. And then you're saying that there's another zodiac which is inherent or emblemized in the meaning of the fifth house Idea of Man, which you've defined as five through eight [second circle]. [AS assents] Is that-- those are [AS assents] the two that you've talked about.
AD: Yeah. And there's [AS assents] going to be a third, the Intellectual [outer circle].
AS: Third.
AD: But we won't get into that now.
SD (simultaneously): Which is going to correspond to the first--
AS: The first third which was-- We'll also see those Nine Prajapatis are really what's-- what are organizing this twelvefold zodiac. That's why the correlation with the Mundane Gods seems to work so well with these signs, Jupiter, Vesta, Miner-- Mercury. And those mea-- if you go into those meanings the way we did, it really seems to--
SD: For that particular zodiac, for the zodiac which--
AS: Yeah I'm talking about the zodiac [drawing] as the zodiacal belt, as the objective, the objective one, the one which is a result of the Demiurgus, as it were, which is organized by the Demiurge [inner circle].
SD (simultaneously): Yeah, ok, that would correspond to the-- to the--
AS: What moves. In your chart that [SD simultaneously: Mundane Gods.] corresponds to what-- the signs in your chart.
SD: Well, ok, that was my next question. Are you correlating these two or three zodiacs with specific astronomical factors that go into making of a chart? Are you, let's say--
AD: We'll leave that to you to find out. We'll leave that to you. We're working with meanings. The translation into the sensible is going to be the work of others. But we want to get our meanings straight. That's what we're working with, Severin, so I'm not interested. I could leave it to the computer experts to figure that out. The point that we're making here is there's a-- some correspondence between one zodiac which refers to the subjective, another correspondence to an objective. And that's-- there's two zodiacs right there. Now, again and again you'll read in various texts, ancient and modern, they speak about two zodiacs, and three zodiacs, and no one tells you what they're talking about. Is it that they don't know, that they haven't analyzed in depth to find out what they're saying? That's more likely than not. But can you-- can you see the-- the vision that's required in the sense of understanding what the Idea of Man is--on the one hand objectively, and on the other hand subjectively. You could think of the universe, alright, as the objective manifestation, and the Soul of the universe which stands behind it. You could also translate that in individual terms--an individual Soul and what he presides over in terms of his objective manifestation. Unification of those two is another problem.
DR: Well, are you presenting both as an unfoldment of the Idea of Man at this (juncture)?
AD: Yes! And we haven't even worked out part of the Idea of Man. And we're only talking about one Idea of Man, and we'll-- that's all we probably will have time for in the next five incarnations. You're talking about an Idea that belongs to the Intellectual-Principle, not an Idea that belongs to our brain.
S: Anthony, what is the--
DR: Well if you have-- And I'm sorry, I still don't [couple/three words inaudible]
AD: Go ahead, David.
DR: If you say that-- let's say the house structure that we-- that we drew up there represents that Leo to Scorpio [AD assents] unfolded, and then you take from Sagittarius to Pisces and superimpose those seven spheres, it almost looks like the Soul that we're talking about presiding over universal manifestation. It's a funny way of presiding, you know-- I mean if you see them as a one overlaid on the other--
AD (simultaneously): Why can't I say that one is the inner and the other is the outer?
DR: I'm not saying that you can't say that.
AD: Now when you say "inner," when you say "inner," I mean do you locate it in some place?
DR: Obviously not, you can't.
AD: Alright, so some situation occurs, let's say a seventh house situation or relationship or circumstances occur, and you say now this is a seventh house affair. Now do you look inside for the seventh house or do you look inside to find meaning? That's all those houses are, those meanings that you're working with. They're not made out of brick or timbers or logs.
DR: So in a way, I mean I could almost see, you know, speaking about a manifestation drawing out the meanings that are present in the [couple words inaudible]
AD: Well, there's two interpretations there and we're leaving them open. [DR assents, faint] The Hindus work with a strict mundane chart. Others could tell you more about it than I can, Tim or some of the others. They interpret what's happening to the Soul in terms of the actual mundane circumstances that are occurring. They could look at a chart and tell you how many children you'd have, how many diseases you're going to get, how poor you're going to be, right down to every mundane detail, alright. How is this affecting the Soul? Well we're not interested, I want to know if I'm going to get money, never mind how it affects. Now, there's the other way. A situation could happen that's similar with both of us, ok. You'll interpret it one way, I'll interpret it another way. Let's say I'm coming from within, and you're coming from within. We could both interpret the same similar situation diversely, because the meanings I'm working with aren't the meanings you're working with. And it could all-- it could still be seventh house thing.
RG: So-- so if they're both seventh house-- seventh house events, what is supplying the difference in meaning?
AD: What do you think?
RG: What do I think?
DR (simultaneously): Structure of your Soul.
[students assent, faint]
S (faint): Ok.
RG: Yeah but in-- (search) structure or the structure of--
AD: You'd have to go back to the third house, wouldn't you, Richard? You'd have to say this Soul's version or interpretation of the Idea of Man is slightly different than that man.
RG: Yes.
AD: That would be one. The second thing would be the age of the Soul itself, I don't mean in [RG assents] temporal sense but in terms of maturity. I'd have to find out these things.
RG: Ok. But, ok, so let's say a seventh house event happens. Somebody has Venus in the seventh house, another person has Mars in the seventh house. But isn't the meaning going to be imposed by the-- by the type of planetary functioning that's going on in the house?
AS: Oh I see. But doesn't it depend what you mean by meaning?
RG: That's what I'm asking, what do we mean-- I mean--
AD (simultaneously): Now tell me, if I saw a circle, a wooden wheel rolling around, you know, just coming down after me from a hill, and I-- and this happened a million times, am I going to know the meaning of a circle unless the form of the circle is first in the Soul?
RG: No.
AD: Well then, what are we talking about?
RG: I don't know. What it-- what was-- I don't-- what was that to teach us?
AB: You have two things.
DR: Talking about the planets and the house.
RG: No, I know that. What was--
AS: The planet's like this-- the wheel rolling down the hill, now you're not going to know-- that planet can function from today till tomorrow. Functioning does-- isn't going to deliver you any meaning unless you have the meaning in the seventh house to beg-- in what-- in that seventh house Idea to begin with. [S: But we--] So you're just stressing the fact that Mars is manifesting something to the Soul.
RG: But in a different way than Venus would. The Idea, the circumstances of the seventh house, are whatever they are.
AD: You never heard of miscellaneous [AS simultaneously to RG: No.] experiences? (student snickers)
RG: They're the circumstance.
AD: They never mean anything to you.
S (faint): [three words inaudible]
AS: But--
AD: Get to a meaningful question, Richard, [AS: But Richard--] because this is going back to the old problem, alright, how do we understand something--are the Forms prior-- prior in the Soul, or are they in the objective world. [AS: But--] Now Sunday we had the same discussion. We have to-- the Soul has to be informed by, let's say, reason-principles in the Matter. Let's grant that, ok. [S: That--] But if the reason-principles aren't in the Soul first, you'll never recognize the reason-principles in the object. Ok? [RG: Of course.] Then what's going to give meaning to the Mars or the Venus in the seventh house? We're only getting back to your question.
RG: What is--
AS: Richard-- I think Richard's point is-- Richard [RG simultaneously: Yes, (the Idea).] would argue that the Mars and the Venus are the subjective knowing. [AD simultaneously: Yeah Richard--] He's not arguing-- he's not arguing-- he's not disagreeing that meaning-- he's agreeing that meaning is subjective. His point is going to be-- Well you say it, I don't want to give your misinter--
RG: Go ahead, you can get it in.
AS (simultaneously): No, no.
RG: He'll get less angry if you say it.
AS: No, I don't think he will. (laughter)
RG (laughing): Yes he will, you say it.
AS: No I'm just trying to explain I think what you're saying your position is.
RG (laughing): Well say it.
AS: Is that-- I think what he-- what he's saying is not that the meaning is not subjec-- It's the same thing he always-- he agrees in-- with the prin-- he does agree with the principles. He disagrees that the principle is being applied to the situation the way he would. And he's saying that the subjective is represented by the planet. And he's not saying that the planet's part of the cosmic manifestation and so on.
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, I know, he-- I know, he's trying to make an aspect, let's say a favorable trine between Jupiter and Mercury, [student assents] he's trying to make that subjective knowing.
AS: Right, he's trying to make that-- [S simultaneously: No.] he's trying to make the vritti into the knowledge.
AD (simultaneously): No, but that's consistent with the way he thinks all the time.
AS: Well, I'm-- at leas it's consistent.
RG (simultaneously): Which is wrong all the time.
AD: No, it's not wrong. I'm just showing you there is a consistency with the way you're thinking.
AS: Yeah.
AD: Alright?
RG: Well, I'm coming for-- but look, we look at the Idea of-- we look at the Idea of Man in the fifth house, alright, and we say that, I mean in some sense--
AD: Richard, very simply, let's say you do have a favorite a-- a favorable aspect and an [RG assents] intuition arises--where does it come from?
RG: The intuition? Comes from within the Soul.
AD: From within your Self.
RG: Of course.
AD: Alright. Let's say you perceive something, you get an insight into something, the aspects are favorable, alright--where is it coming from?
RG: Within yourself.
AD: Isn't-- wouldn't something like this occur, that you have, let's say, the conjunction of Jupiter and Mercury, alright, and they're both favorable, alright, and there's a momentary illumination or understanding. This momentary knowledge, which is a piece of knowledge, and which, let's say, is valid and true, isn't it at one and the same time that knowledge now something that is participating in the Soul? It is-- it is now-- In other words, when it appears to our consciousness it's empirical knowledge. If it didn't appear to our consciousness but was anyway, it would be part of the pure knowledge. [RG assents] Which can only belong to the Soul.
RG: Yeah, definitely.
AD: And that's why the Vedantins don't make a distinction between true knowledge if it's true, whether it's empirical or otherwise.
RG: Uh-hm. Yeah. I'll agree with that. So, I mean-- Yeah, ok.
DB: Right. Richard? Is it possible-- I'm not sure if I understand what he's saying but is it-- is he trying to say something like the planets which you have say in the seventh house are going to symbolize the contents from within yourself, within the Soul which are going to be manifested? I mean is that what [few words inaudible]
RG (simultaneously): No I think--
AS: No he's not saying that.
RG (simultaneously): He's saying-- he's saying that the planets merely are the material-- you know, your sheaths get together in a favorable way to allow an illumination from the Soul to arise that you have-- that you can contact. That's symbolized by the house, by the seventh house, the planets are merely revealing that.
AD: Yeah, the Hindus would say that it articulates or precipitates out of a potential condition the knowledge that's in the Soul. The Platonists would say it the other way, no, it's the other way, it's the Soul that sees and perceives first before there's any sensible knowing. So we'll keep this two schools open, we'll keep the both views going simultaneously.
S: But I'm-- but I'm confused.
S: Yeah.
RG: But when that-- so, I mean when the Hindus use the house structure and you said only the mundane circumstances [TS: They don't.] to interpret a chart-- Well, a lot of them do. Ok Tim.
AD: We'll grant them that they do.
RG: Well you, I mean-- you put forth that idea. What do-- what do they-- what is being revealed by using the house structure to understand-- or horary astrology you only use the house structure, the signs are irrelevant there-- in order to understand the mundane event, how are the mundane events translating into this content of the Soul? In other words, there-- there are these objective circumstances that seem to be symbolized by the house structure. And yet you're saying, they-- these now are just-- these are-- you're able to read the content of the Soul from these circumstances.
AD: Or they Soul reads those [RG simultaneously: From--] contents, yeah.
RG: Is that-- that's what you're saying?
AD: So if you have a few bricks in a rectangular form, alright, and you take in the meaning, what you take in is the Form. There's a formal identity, never an existential identity. [short pause] We keep both views, I think we're better off to keep working with them. So that we could understand Plotinus when he says something like this, in our doctrine we teach our Soul to accord with the Intellectual vision or the vision of the world according to the Intellectual-Principle (Plotinus, V.3.6). See, those are all minor details, Richard, in comparison to the idea which is spreading out in front of us. And if it should have validity it will be a key to astrology. Because I could look at the same thing you do and I just go away in an absolute rage that here there's these twelve boxes and I can't figure out what they mean. And I get embarrassed. Well I'm embarrassed to myself. What does the first house mean, what is that stupid line doing there? If you try to do some creative understanding as to what's happening to a person and you want to read what the Soul is trying to grab out of experience, you'll throw all the-- your textbooks out. [9 second pause] Anyway, Avery, you want to give them a report on more of what we did together, what we've been doing past week?
AS: Yeah I don't know.
AD: Because this really shows--and I mean in a very minute way--the notion, when we speak about an Idea in the World-Mind, that its ramifications are infinite, they go up and down the scale of reality. If you listen to some people speak about the Intellectual-Principle or Being it's enough to nauseate me and make me vomit.
S: Avery, can I ask one question on ter-- on the terminology you're using?
AS: If you want.
AD: You have to speak a little louder.
S: I've got one question, it might just be a definition, but I still get confused when you use the word "objective." It seems that sometimes when you (use) you're talking about the objective cosmic events, and sometimes you're talking about the objective sheaths of the individual.
AS: Same thing, right? The objective cosmic event and like-- and the objective-- your objective sheaths are of one tissue, they're all-- they're all part of the cosmic manifestation. Like your individual mind and your body are all-- in this view are objective. And every time, every instant or whatever, the World-Soul is manifesting the cosmos, your vehicles too are part of that manifestation. That that's why that part of you is objective, it's bound up with the cosmic manifestation. Like you go to the ephemeris to see, you know, what kind of feelings you're going to have that day, or what kind of thoughts are going to come into you. Because there's an objective reference, a manifesting process of the cosmos. And that see the--
AD: Friday we should see that very clearly. Richard's going to work on Samkhya. And that's all they're concerned about. They have no interest in understanding the internal structure of the Purusha. They give it one line, "the Purusha's the 25th tattva" and they go on to the other 24, and you never hear again of Purusha.
S (very faint): [few words inaudible]
AS: Well-- wait, let's say. I mean I'm not-- By objective we mean all of the vehicles that are fabricated by the World-Soul, the Demiurge, the whole cosmic manifestation, that's superimposed on the Soul, Cognitive Isness conjoined with the Idea of Man. I mean roughly, that's a rough-- True, I mean-- I-- I don't-- true, the word "true" in quotes, but it's like true subject and object, not the-- not the apparent subject and object that we're speaking about. [9¼ second pause] I think object is being used more or less consistently, houses nine, ten, eleven, and twelve. [student assents] Like when we said that houses nine, ten, eleven, and twelve represent the Demiurgic Intellect which is organizing the whole of manifestation. And then the Sun in Aquarius the Cosmic Soul, which is actually manifesting the universe, ok, in the twelfth house and you got all the planetary spheres functioning together fabricatively and gnostically to build up your vehicles here. So you look at-- [drawing] you know, you look at the-- one thing you would see in your chart when you looked at the planetary positions and aspects and signs would be this cosmic manifestation going on in you. Going on in you means that it's superimposed on your Soul. It's happening in your Soul. Your Soul is not mat-- He [Plotinus] says completely immaterial. It's omnipresent, all-pervasive.
S: What is?
AS: Your Soul. And the Ideas which it contains are all pervasive. And that's the-- that's the subjective.
S: So when we talk about an objective event, I mean you-- you're not talking about the event that's happening, you're talking about the feeling that it creates in you?
AS: No, no, we're talking about the objective event.
S: But what do you (want)?
AS: The feeling that it creates in you is-- [AD simultaneously: Is also objective.] is just as objective. That is--
S: Right, that's-- I mean [few words inaudible]
AS (simultaneously): That's all-- that's-- that's right and you can't-- he-- when we did the Hidden Teaching [Beyond Yoga, by Paul Brunton], you said the individual mind and the World-Soul are really functioning together. That whole business, this is-- your chart is like your individual mind; the cosmic chart here is like the World-Soul's manifestation, they're conjoined. That chart you have is like the part of you that's part of the cosmic circuit, that's under the auspices of Fate, that has to take it on the chin when there's these aspects going on. 'Cause ma-- because it's part of that manifestation.
AD: When you say that the planets are gnostic and fabricative, alright, you're saying that your being and your knowledge are both objective. I know you think that knowledge is something subjective, but the knowledge that you're speaking about is objective. The knowledge that the Soul has of what's happening is subjective. It would be the same thing like when Jung says, for instance, the psychical essences or the archetypes are the basis of the constitution of the entity. The part that remains within him is emotional, the part that he perceives objectively, alright, is physical. But the archetype itself includes both. And what we're saying is something like this: what you call your being, your physical being, and what you call the knowing that's going on with that physical being or-- is both part of the objective manifestation, the functioning of those planets. [S, faint: Ok.] So this will be difficult for many people because they keep thinking that the thoughts that are, you know, swarming in their head is part of the-- [AS simultaneously: Subjective.] of subjective Soul. And some teachers refer to them as phantoms in the cave. [19¾ second pause] You follow any of this here or the--
[short pause]
AS: (Quit.) Right?
AD: Now--
ME: (When/And) you can describe that-- the three different zodiacs, I wonder if you could just repeat that for a minute so I could-- how you're getting, deriving three zodiacs.
AS: The one-- the picture Anthony had on the board. Were you here right at the beginning?
ME: No. [AS drawing] But I think it was the-- you have three different-- three-- yeah.
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, we only worked two out so far.
AS: Yeah. Nine to twelve zodiac, the zodiac of five through eight that we did here, and the third one that we didn't [do yet], the unity of those which represents what these two are differentiating, or the highest one, the intellectual one [FIGURE 1981 0128-4-JF].
ME: I guess my question-- like I was going to forget it but I guess my question is, why does let's say this-- the subjective thing that we diagramed, the subjective aspect, why [AS assents] would you call that a zodiac?
AS: The Idea of Man
ME: Yeah, why would you call that a zodiac?
AS: Why would you call that a zodiac.
AD: It's just a symbolism, alright. It's just a symbolism.
AS (simultaneously): That's fine.
ME: But in terms of let's say, you know, if you're being historical or, you know, people were writing that kind of thing, I mean, it seems to me that if when you try and correlate it with the-- with the objective diagram that you're trying to draw a correlation and I just--
AS: There is.
ME: I mean we sort of did it, we didn't finish but, I mean how-- the same question that Dickie was having, I mean how the houses and signs are related but-- I just wondered what-- why you come up with-- why that would be even thought of in terms of let's say signs, in terms of some kind of a-- especially if you're talking it out of-- or if you're looking through the-- the universe of stars or some kind of symbolism to that, why that comes from it.
[short pause]
AD: I don't think I grasp what you're saying, Michael.
ME: I'm not sure I can explain it. It seems that from what we're saying about the subjective aspect that it just doesn't-- it's not clear to me why that is related in any way to the objective aspect and why do you see that--
AD: Oh, but it is related. That's the relation we're trying to make, or he was trying to make. He was trying to equate Leo, Sagittarius, and then Taurus-- I mean [AS simultaneously: Virgo with Capricorn.] Virgo-- In other words, the whole idea is to show how these two zodiacs are evolved out of these two systems that we're working with.
ME: I guess I don't see that relation.
AD: Well, Avery, show.
[Note: See FIGURE 1981 0128-4-JF for the following.]
AS: Well that's-- that's what we were trying-- I mean you could see here in the first-- first house Idea of Unity. See, we're using the-- we're using the metaphysical in both so, I mean and Dickie made that point before, and in some way-- no, maybe Alan, that-- yeah, there is a consistency because we're-- we're saying-- we derive this one from saying that the Idea of Man is a special and unique form of the Intellectual-Principle [FIGURE 1981 0128-2], and we derive these subjective meanings from there. I think in a similar way, the ninth house Idea, the Prajapatis, which then will spread out nine through twelve, is also a unique form of the Intellectual-Principle [inner circle]. But suppose for example, here we would have the first house Idea would be the Unity of the Idea of Man [first house in second circle]. That second, the objective zodiac [first house in inner circle], the one that-- ok, let's symbolize it by Aries. Maybe it's just bad to call them both zodiacs, I mean they do that, ok, but-- so-- I mean maybe that's a-- maybe that was your first problem.
ME (simultaneously): No, it's just a jump from saying it's the first house to the Aries that is-- [few words inaudible]
AS (simultaneously): Well, the jump from saying that this here in one-- in one system, in one twelvefold system it represents the Unity of the Idea of Man. In the other twelvefold system, ok, it just-- it could represent like the Unity of-- well how would we say? [one/two words inaudible] It's more like the functional-- it's more like the principle that makes any objective thing a unity. I mean I don't know if we could say it that way. It's like Jupiter-- if we refer this one [drawing] back to the Jupiter in Sagittarius [first house in inner circle], this one we referred back to the Sun in Leo [first house in second circle]. This one [first house in inner circle] we're referring to the Unity of the Demiurgus rather than the Unity of the Idea of Man. So this refers to-- this referred to the Soul for example, this would refer-- I mean if this referred to the objective sheaths, this would refer to the unity of the objective sheaths or the unity of any individual chart, self-identity.
ME (simultaneously): Right, that-- well, when-- when you refer that back to the Jupiter in Sagittarius, then it seems it would refer back to the objective, and we still don't have the [AS assents] subjective somehow.
AS: No, the subjective would be here, referring back to the Sun in Leo [first house in second circle], and there's a corr-- there's a correlation, these-- the two thirds. If you moved them around you could superimpose one on the other is another way to say it. The Sun, the first dignity here in rulership in Leo, would be correl-- [drawing] would correlate and correspond to the Jupiter [in Sagittarius], the Unity of the Jupiter in the second third [first house in inner circle]. And this one [second house in second circle], all of these Essences here, ok, which went into-- which were the samskaras, which represented the samskaras of that Unity of the Idea of Man, would correlate to the Tail, ok, over here [second house in inner circle], which would represent the totality of the Essences which the Jupiter was going to manifest say. And then the Saturn [in Leo] here [third house in second circle], the Idea of Man, ok, or the-- yeah, the human-- a human Soul or unit Soul, here in the fourth one [house] would be this Mercury [in Virgo, rulership], or the logos of an objective Soul [fourth house in second circle].
AD (simultaneously): So Michael, it's very simple, it simply means, zodiac simply means twelvefold, ok?
AS (simultaneously): Oh, yeah.
AD: Throw out the word "zodiac." Think of twelvefold, ok?
AS: Right, dodecad. Maybe calling them dodecads is better.
AD (simultaneously): [one/two words inaudible] the problems, throw them out!
AS: Then Proclus says there are three dodecads. And he also-- yeah. And in the-- in the comment-- then the Timaeus Commentary he said there are three dodecads--the sense-- I don't know, I think the objective dodecad, and then the next one, and finally the supermundane (so--)
AD (simultaneously): But she was working out two of them now. And we'll get to the third one eventually but let's try to get two of them together first.
[short pause]
DR: See, in some ways, I still see them as separate. If you talk about the superimposition of two things, one seems to be from the Idea of Man, and one is from the Demiurgus. I mean I-- there's no problem for me to superimpose the two, that seems-- it seems reasonable.
AD (simultaneously): Well that's enough for me now. That's enough for me now. [short pause] I wouldn't-- I wouldn't have them combined or united in a metaphysical way. I'll leave them-- I'd leave them separate. I'd leave-- I'd leave the dualistic framework [AS assents] alone.
DR: Ok then I can understand (what you--)
AS: But, if you went back to a unity you'd be going back to the Intellectual-Principle itself or something, from which both are derived from.
DR (simultaneously): But I didn't want to do that, I didn't want to do that.
AS: See--
SD: Both of these zodiacs are considered as going around the outside of the seven planetary rings?
AS: Oh no, this house one, see, you got to imagine like it's radiating, pervading the whole-- like the picture is something like-- you imagine the blackboard with just the Idea imposed on it, just the twelve lines.
SD: And that's one of the zodiacs or dodecads. And the other one is actually--
AD (simultaneously): Well, if you want-- if you-- if you want to look at it this way, imagine that here's a center, alright, the heart center, ok. On the other side of space is the spirit. And he comes through that center [AS: Heart center.] and pervades in all twelve directions. [AS assents] Use any kind of symbolism you want but try to grasp the fundamental thing that we're trying to get across, is that the cosmos is superimposed on the Soul, and that there has to be a distinction between the objective and the subjective. Has to be made very clear. [few inaudible AS words simultaneous with AD] If you got that, you got a capital point. Avery, I'd like you to do something. Pick out a few of the quotes that you picked out from Plotinus concerning Man, and see if they don't get clarified with this diagram. And the reason I'm angry and I'm steamrolling you, Richard, is I'm going to get my idea across come-- [one word inaudible, possibly AD] And then when we get the idea across, then I'll let you criticize. But by that time, I'll be ready to answer you. (laughter)
RG: Every criticism? Thank you.
S: [couple words inaudible] better be careful.
LCG: Avery, can I ask one question before you read the quotes?
AS: Yeah.
AD: You know the Dalai Lama told me when you really study the four systems to see them as one. I wanted to say when you study all the systems, you'll see them as one. [9¼ second pause] I'll always come from that position, always. I refuse to believe that Shankara, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Plotinus, Plato disagreed with each other. I refuse to believe that. If I believe that, I walk out of here.
[11¾ second pause]
AS: Yeah, there was some questions.
LCG: Yeah, you said right before that the whole-- the last thing you said when you put that chart up was that the Ar--
AD (simultaneously): Louder, Laurie.
LCG: He was saying-- the last thing he was saying is that after-- when he was putting the chart up was that the Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer were going to organize the different elements on the Earth: the fire, water, ether, air, I mean, and-- I mean--
AD (simultaneously): And the vasanas and degrees? Yeah.
LCG: Earth. But what happens to the ether degree when you-- when you do-- I mean the ether element?
AD (simultaneously): When-- what happens to what?
LCG: The ether element when he's saying that these-- that the Aries, Taurus, Gemini, and Cancer are going to organize.
AD: Well--
AS: Got to wait for those details.
AD (simultaneously): Ether would-- ether would be the quintessence of the four. Think of all four, if you could homogenize them, you'd have the ether.
LCG: How would that be symbolized from the chart?
AD: Well, we'll get to it. That's a particular problem.
LCG: Ok.
AS: The zodiac (ring). It's the whole zodiac.
LCG: The whole zodiac?
AS: The Moon-- four is down here.
AD: It may be-- it may be the empty space in the top of the head. We'll worry about that later. Read the-- read an extract or two from Man.
AS: Is there any particular one that you like that--
AD: 14 is nice.
AS: Ok.
S: (Just stay--)
AS: Got to get them [S simultaneously: In the way.] (in the way of) the numbers. [couple words inaudible] (AS laughs) So, that's actually the one we started with.
Plotinus [VI.8.14, AS reading]: "Everything to which existence may be attributed is either one with its essence or distinct from it."
AD: Alright, you follow that? Existence would only be in the cosmic gizmo. Essence would be the underlie, the house underlie. Go ahead.
Plotinus [VI.8.14 cont., AS reading]: "Thus any given man is distinct from essential man though [AS reads: although]…"
AD: Any given man, like Richard Goldman is a given man. Essential man would be the Soul.
Plotinus [VI.8.14 cont., AS reading]: "…though [AS reads: although] belonging to the order Man…"
AS: [couple words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Now you see what he means the order of Man?
DR: I'm sorry, Avery, read it again.
AS: You like this line.
Plotinus [VI.8.14, AS rereading]: "Thus any given man is distinct from essential man though [AS reads: although] belonging to the order Man…"
AS: Capital M.
AD: The Buddhists would say any given man was a dependent arising. Essential Man would be that deep mode of emptiness which is his Being.
AS: Same thing.
DR: Alright, can I ask a question on the previous quote?
S (faint): Uh-hm.
AD: Go ahead.
AS: Say more.
DR: If you say that any given thing, any existent thing is either "one with its essence or distinct from it"?
AD: Yeah.
AS: Uh-hm.
DR: From-- from this view, in what way can I see that? In what way can I see that an existent thing would be--
AD: The existent thing, Dave, here, in your case for instance, would be your body and your mind. That's a given thing, it's a dependent arising, it's a fabrication and gnostic functioning of the seven planetary spheres. The essential Dave, if there is such a thing and has a deeper mode of Being, would be the house structure which underlies that.
DR: Ok so now do you-- how do you speak of it as either being one "with the essence [AS simultaneously: Well--] or distinct from it"? It seems that it's distinct from it.
AS: No, Dave, I-- maybe this is wrong, but I think that he's not using "existent" here in technical sense. When he says "everything to which existence may be attributed," it doesn't mean-- I mean unless I'm reading this wrong, I don't think he means existent in the technical sense. There are two-- he's distinguishing between something which is "one with its essence or distinct from it." You consider the essential Man, he's one with his essence. [DR: Oh ok.] You consider the fabrication of the planetary spheres [DR simultaneously: Ok.] as distinct from the essence. He's calling them both by the word "an existent." He just means a being, either a real Being or a fabricated being.
DR: I see, [AS simultaneously: He's give-- he's-- yeah.] he's called the essential Man a Being and [AS simultaneously: An existent also.] he's also called this fabricated universe.
AS: Yeah, he's not using existence in the technical sense, the way we've used it. He's got to use a word. Leave out the word "existence."
DR: Ok.
AS: Any entity or any thing is "either one with its essence or distinct from it." Otherwise-- yeah, uh-hm. Ok?
AD: Any quote over there, Avery, doesn't--
AS: There's a few where he-- There's one or two I didn't read before that are very nice, where he says-- he says in some place that--
Plotinus [VI.3.9, AS reading]: "Turn to the case of Socrates: it is not Socrates who bestows manhood upon what previously was not Man, but Man upon Socrates; the individual man exists by participation in the universal.
"Besides, Socrates is merely a particular instance of Man; this [AS reads: the] particularity can have no effect whatever in adding to his essential manhood."
S (faint): What page is that on?
AS: Well it's page 500. (Very) [one/two words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Here's a quotation from Paracelsus that I think you'll enjoy. Randy, would you read it?
C.G. Jung [CW 13, Alchemical Studies, "Paracelsus as a Spiritual Phenomenon," p. 131, paragraph 168, RC reading]: "For Paracelsus the Primordial Man was [RC reads: is] identical with the"astral" [RC reads: "starry"] man: "[The] true man is the star in us." … "For heaven is man and man is heaven, and all men are one heaven, [and] heaven is only one man." … [Undoubtedly] this is the Primordial Man, for…: "In the whole Ides there is but One Man, [RC adds: and] the same is extracted by the Iliastrum…"
RC (faint): I think (that's something) [couple words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Yeah. They used to make up words. He didn't want no one know the ro-- what he was saying, I wonder why he published it. It's ten o'clock, I'm sorry we went on so long, but we have a lot of quotes here to try to supplement and add some significance to what we're saying, alright. But don't get dismayed, Leslie, when I-- you know, when we work at these things out. I mean, we don't come up with the idea like that, we have to work quite a while to see the correlations. So naturally, you know, you get hit with it the first time, you're just going to, you know, back off and say what's going on here. But there is coherence, there is an inner consistency and logic we're working with. Every time we cross-- you know, that a contradiction arises, we stop, we know we did something wrong, we have to go back and retrace everything we do. Because we want to get it down to the chart that you and I read. Want to get it down to that level. Like where you saw me put Being, Life, and Intellect. On our level we would have to translate it something like this: mental, emotional, physical. When you do that and then you take a degree, (then/and) you'd have to use the threefold signification of a degree.
[Audio File 1981 0128c (formerly 1981 0128b) Ends]
1981 01/28 V12a: CLASS: Metaphysical Chart; Idea of Man. Copyright 2026 Wisdom's Goldenrod p. v