Wednesday, February 4th, 1981

CLASS at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY

with Anthony Damiani (AD)

February 4b, 1981

PLOTINUS; IDEA OF MAN;

THE INTRUDER AND THE PRIMAL MAN

TOPIC: Plotinus

SUBJECT: Idea of Man

SUBSUBJECT: Intruder and the Primal Man

CONTENTS:

"Upon that primal Man there has intruded another" (VI.4.14)

Cosmic Being, Cosmic Man pulls us into universe

Brahma

Primal Man in 2nd quadrant

"Some of us gods": got a task in the 4th quadrant and backslided

Brahma, Vishnu, Ishvara

VI.4.15 quote on Intruder

Liberation and intruder

"Before we had our becoming here" (4th quadrant), "we existed There" (2nd quadrant)

Soul Monad & Body Monad

Two sets of memories

Vasanas

Almost like we get brought down to help with 4th quadrant

No manifestation without soul

VI.4.1: Soul & Body

Three interpretations of Intruder & Primal Man using the chart

First two interpretations repeated

Possible 4th interpretation debunked

Primal principles don't disappear

Third interpretation repeat

Two sets of vasanas, memories

Vasanas: let them just manifest–or guide them

Vasanas will wrap themselves around any living entity they find

Third quadrant Sun and Moon in Body Monad

Don't confuse priors with what's in Body Monad

Sun and Moon

Intruder VI.4.15 quote

Body Monad very limited

Sound & significance analogy (VI.4.15)

Lower memory and body, where is it

Actual body's behavior result of all prior experiencing

Body & samskaras

Koshas, vasanas in cosmos not equivalent to those in corporeal body

Jung & archetype

Body of Cosmos and its samskaras, ultimately based on forms in Soul

Subtle body

BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:

• Plotinus, The Enneads (MacKenna translation, 4th ed.)

PLOTINUS QUOTES READ OR REFERENCED: V.1.10, VI.4.1, VI.4.14, VI.4.15

DIAGRAM appended to this transcript:

• FIGURE IMG 2202-Posterboard Metaphysical Chart.

Other diagrams referred to are not with this transcript version.

NOTES:

• TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS WITH AUDIO FILES OF THIS DATE. The transcript below (b) is of a class NOT HELD on this date, and is a partially taped over event at the end of "Tape 2" of WG Class 1981 0204a. This earlier, undated class fragment (but probably in this same general time period), is on the Intruder and the Primal Man and is included in the Idea of Man transcript series. 1984 0204a = Metaphysical Chart; Idea of Man Mandalas.

• Cf. also Astronoesis p. 338, Endnote 43, "The Animate and the Alien".

• Previously printed, distributed 2003 as part of a set on the Idea of Man.

TRANSCRIBED by jf 2003 from Audio Cassette tapes; reformatted by jf 2018. In 2024, IT updates prefatory matter and footer, replaces tape markers with audio file markers, alters Topic to make more accurate, completes Book List, adds Plotinus quotes section, adds new note within transcript, corrects typos and some listening errors, appends Metaphysical chart and note within transcript referencing this, reformats to accord with new conventions. In 2025, IT updates audio file markers to match new REP audio. Readable edited transcript – V11r.

AUDIO FILES: 1981 0204c. [Note 1: "Tape" and "Side" refer to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files. Note 2: In 2025, REP Studio cuts dead air and consolidates class into one audio file.]

1981 02/04b at Wisdom's Goldenrod

Plotinus; Idea of Man; Intruder and the Primal Man

[Audio File 1981 0204c Begins]

[Note: See FIGURE IMG 2202-Posterboard Metaphysical Chart appended to this transcript to help follow class discussion.]

Plotinus VI.4.14 (TS reading, audio file begins with "Even now, it is true"): "But we ourselves, what are We? . . . Before we had our becoming Here we existed There, men other than now, some of us gods: we were pure souls, Intelligence inbound with the entire of reality, members of the Intellectual, not fenced off, not cut away, integral to that All. Even now, it is true, we are not put apart; but upon that primal Man there has intruded another, a man seeking to come into being and finding us there, for we were not outside of the universe."

TS: First of all, what does the last part of that mean, that we were not outside of the universe? What is the nature of that universe? Since (it seems) he's not speaking of the Body Monad or the manifested universe, then what would it be?

S: The heavenly system.

TS: The heavenly system? Then that would be part of the manifested universe.

S: (inaudible)

AB: Because if the 'other' finds the Primal Man, in that intelligible universe it's analogously.

S: The other part of the primal man in the intelligibles?

AB: He says "upon that primal Man there has intruded another . . . [who] finding us there, for we were not outside of the universe." So what's the 'there' where the 'other' finds the primal Man?

LR: The Being, wouldn't it refer to the Being, two words before that: "a man seeking to come into being and finding us there." I thought that meant finding us in Being, you know. You have to find someone to bring down here and he found us in Being.

AB: Were we in Being before he dragged us out of the One?

LR: But you know, you have to decide whether Being means manifest there or Being?

RG: (inaudible) The coming into Being here seems to mean coming into manifestation.

LR: You think so?

RG: Yes, "a man seeking to come into being." The primal Man is already in Being; it wouldn't need to be another man if he meant the other man--

LR: But wouldn't it be-- Do you think being means manifestation there?

RG: In that sense, I do.

LR: But from what you just said it would just be the reverse.

RG: (inaudible)

VM: Which is the other one, Linda?

LR: The question is which is the one, and which is the other?

RG: He's saying upon that Primal Man there has intruded another? Now who would that other be?

LR: The other man. That would be the second memory, wouldn't it?

AD: You think it might be perhaps the cosmic Being, you know, like the Cosmos with a body, with soul, with intellect.

LR: Nuh-uh. (student snickers)

S: Could you repeat that, what are you saying, in referring to the cosmos as a body, soul, and intellect?

AD: Well we sometimes speak about the cosmos as a Cosmic Being. And if you think of a Cosmic Being, He would have to have a Body, a Soul, and an Intellect, and a Unity. Okay, and all that is necessary. It might be that this Cosmic Man pulls us out of heaven, and drags us right down into his universe. Alright I don't want you to think of this comical man-- (last is hard to hear)

AB: So the 'Other' is the Cosmic Being--

S: (inaudible)

LR: That would be like the mode of becoming or something that you're speaking of--

AD: Brahma-- the Avatar--

AB: Brahman pulls you out of heaven and throws you into his world.

AD: Puts you into form, chains you up. This is just a suggestion-- You see, he says [VI.4.14]: "some of us gods: we were pure souls, Intelligence inbound with the entire of reality, members of the Intellectual, not fenced off--" Okay. "Even now, it is true, we are not put apart; but upon that primal Man" --sounds like some--

HS: Are you saying that the 'other' is the second quadrant? The intruder--

AD: (inaudible) the other--

HS: Is that the way you're using it?

AD: No. I'm saying the fourth quadrant is intruding on the second, and pulling out from the second an intellectual essence, you know.

S: The Primal Man is in the second quadrant.

AD: Yes. Like Saturn in Cancer, like the Primal Soul, or the Soul in the intellectual realm, and he's pulled out, so to speak, and given a role to play or a part to perform in the fourth quadrant. Because the reference is: "some of us [were] gods," okay, so perhaps there was need for their aid or their help in administering the universe, and then when we got there, some of us backslided, you know, backsliding.

RG: Okay, but he says: "a man seeking to come into being and finding us there, for we were not outside of the universe." It seems the way he's saying there the man seeking to come into being let's say in the 4th quadrant, and finding us in the fourth quadrant--

LR: No, no-- I'm arguing with you now (inaudible, then inaudible LR/RG interchange)

RG: It seems to be from what you're saying that: "upon the primal Man there has intruded another," and that another is the fourth quadrant, in the fourth quadrant.

AD: The other comes from the 4th, yes.

RG: Right. Alright. ". . . a man seeking to come into being."

AD: That would be the whole fourth quadrant.

RG: The whole fourth quadrant: "and finding us there"--

AD: Finding us in the second quadrant, Saturn--

(Side 1 of original cassette tape digitized as 1981 0204c Ends; Side 2 Begins)

LR: --and, "a man seeking to come into being (AD: Alright.) and finding us there," in Being.

AD: Finding us where?

LR: In Being.

AD: Yes. In Being.

LR: In the Intellectual quadrant.

RG: Where is that?

AD: Yes, that would be the second quadrant.

RG: Wait a minute. (inaudible)

AD: Yes, you could look at it this way, I mean, a little picture. This would be-- this part here, alright, let's say would be that 'other' man, alright. And we reside over here, okay. (JfL assents) (noises on blackboard) And this would be the Intellectual Man, okay. Now this Man here, Brahma okay, the creator God, or Jupiter, the Demiurge, alright, (banging on blackboard) pulls us out of here and we become part of this universe.

RG: Well, I don't follow how "a man seeking to come into being" -- how does a man seeking coming into being get to the second quadrant to pull us out?

AD: Well, this fellow here is Brahma okay, this is Vishnu okay, and this is Ishvara, you know -- I mean, they're all in cahoots. (student snickers) That's the Trimurti, isn't it? I mean that's three aspects of the One God. Well, this Cosmic Man wants to come into being. In other words, if we think of the whole cosmos here as the Cosmic Man-- not the Primal but the Cosmic Man, the Man that comes into manifestation. The Brahma, the creative god, the god who puts us into a form, okay. Now he wants to manifest his universe, okay. And you're in it. So he brings you in here, puts you in a nice suit of clothes, and has you working in here. Nah, I'm just kidding-- (inaudible)

RG: It seems from [VI.4.]15 where he talks about, he talks about this Intruder, I don't know, he seems to be speaking about it as the-- I don't know-- as an individual's manifested soul as embodied.

AD: I don't follow, say it again--

RG: It seems to me, from the next tract which describes [VI.4.15] how did this Intruder find entrance, (AD: Go ahead--) it seems he's speaking of the soul life descended into body, so to speak.

AD: Well, why don't you read the next tractate, go ahead.

Plotinus VI.4.15 (RG reading): "But how did this intruder find entrance?

"It had a certain aptitude and it grasped at that to which it was apt. In its nature it was capable of soul: but what is unfitted to receive soul entire--present entire but not for it--takes what share it may; such are the members of the animal and vegetal order. Similarly, of a significant sound some forms of being take sound and significance together, others only the sound, the blank impact.

"A living thing comes into existence containing soul, present to it from the Authentic, and by soul is inbound with Reality entire; it possesses also a body; but this body is not a husk having no part in soul, not a thing that earlier lay away in the soulless; the body had its aptitude and by this draws near: now it is not body merely, but living body. By this neighbouring it is enhanced with some impress of soul--not in the sense of a portion of soul entering into it, but that it is warmed and lit by soul entire: at once there is the ground of desire, pleasure, pain: the body of the living form that has come to be was certainly no unrelated thing.

"The Soul sprung from the divine lay self-enclosed at peace, true to its own quality; but its neighbour, in uproar through weakness, instable of its own nature and beaten upon from without, cries upon the living total, spreading the disorder at large. Thus, at an assembly the Elders may sit in tranquil meditation, but an unruly populace, crying for food and casting up a host of grievances, will bring the whole gathering into ugly turmoil; when this sort of people hold their peace so that a word from a man of sense may reach them, some passable order is restored and the baser part ceases to prevail; otherwise the silence of the better allows the rabble to rule, the distracted assembly unable to take the word from above.

"This is the evil of state and of council: and this is the evil of man; man includes an inner rabble--pleasures, desires, fears--and these become masters when the man, the manifold, gives them play.

"But one that has reduced his rabble and gone back to the Man he was, lives to that and is that Man again, so that what he allows to the body is allowed as to something separate.

"There is the man, too, that lives partly in the one allegiance and partly in the other; he is a blend of the good that is himself with the evil that is alien."

RG: What I got from there, it seems that the Other Man there was like the irrational soul. Winding itself around the Primal Man, the man in the Intellectual.

AD: Well, it certainly sounds seductive, doesn't it?

LR: It seems to be when you speak of the two memories, the one held in the historicity of the body, and the other held as what's essential in the life of the soul, I thought the 'Other' was like the naggings of the body history which brought it back down. And that when you speak of like a sage being liberated from all the body samskaras or something, then there wouldn't be that other man to pull down that--

AD: Yes.

LR: --that karma.

RG: Okay. So then when he says "upon that primal Man there has intruded another, a man seeking to come into being and finding *us* there." [us emphasized by RG] So in some sense that Primal Man is present in the 4th quadrant, and he is present in the fourth quadrant. And the Intellect [ring] extends through the fourth quadrant and in that sense the Primal Man is present in the Universe through which this other soul can wrap itself around us. I don't know-- (drawing-on-blackboard sounds)

LR: So are you saying that-- when you say something to the effect that the man still has this animal and vegetable nature, (RG: Vegetal.) vegetal nature, to that extent he remains in some way in the cosmos even after he dies, and that's how he can be pulled back down, by that--

RG: No, no, while he's living, he's pulled right (down) (RG/LR talking at same time) The other, too. No, but not even that, a man who doesn't have those desires can enter the-- I think that's the point, he can be in the universe and yet not be bound by that 'other man,' it doesn't have to be that intruder. (LR inaudible)

RG: But even when that's wiped out, a man can reenter the universe.

LR: Yes. I'm just um-- I guess I'm confused-- when he says "Before we had our becoming Here we existed There." (RG: Well--) Well, I tend to think (inaudible)-- I tend to think of those as two different realms, not interpenetrating.

RG: Say it's the soul Monad, okay. Say you're speaking of the Primal Man as the Soul Monad. Now that soul Monad extends through all the quadrants. (LR: Yes.) And it exists in its primal state in the universe. (inaudible)

LR: But its primal state would be the Saturn [in Cancer].

RG: It's the whole thing, it's the whole line, it's the Soul Monad.

AD: But when he says "Before we had our becoming Here" -- and that definitely refers to the historical man-- "we existed There" -- which is certainly the Intelligible World or above that (in unity). (hard to hear, coughing). "[M]en other than now, some of us gods: we were pure souls, Intelligence inbound with the entire of reality, members of the Intellectual." So that even without going into the Intellectual Realm, you know the Sun, Moon [exaltation ring] and all that, let's just say over here, alright, (we're found in) the intellectual. "Not fenced off" -- alright, "Even now, it is true, we are not put apart; but upon that primal Man there has intruded another, a man seeking to come into being and finding us there." Now this is the man that I was saying was seeking to come to there, okay.

If we think for instance of this as the Body Monad, okay, where we have the second set of memories, if we want to say, okay. Let's say that in this Monad here there is, the universe has its own memory, just like the body has its own memory, that's a lower set of memories okay. Let's say that would correspond to the vasanas inherent in the actual body. Now I'm aware that a lot of people think you just let the vasanas do what they want, okay, but that's not the case. It seems that He needs its help in order to come into manifestation as that universe or an individual. I'm inclining to voting indiscriminately, whether you're speaking about a universe or an individual (inaudible). In other words, if--

First let me finish this here. "This other has wound [it]self about us, foisting himself upon the Man that each of us was at first." And here Man is capitalized, alright, so it would certainly seem to be the Universal Man, not any particular or individual man. Alright. And: "Then it was as if one voice sounded, one word was uttered, and from every side an ear attended and received and there was an effective hearing," it almost sounds like, alright, here's your orders-- go down and take care of the Body Monad. Because: "possessed through and through of what was present and active upon it: now we have lost that first simplicity; we are become the dual thing, sometimes indeed no more than that later [AD says latter]." So if we think of a set of vasanas, let's say, inhabiting this realm okay, and that they have an urge to manifest, to become. But they can't become anything without this here, so to speak, alright. And then we have this kind of situation where the Universal Life, alright, comes from here. I think that kind of interpretation is much more coherent. I mean, that's coherent to the whole passage. (RG assents)

RG: Can I ask you about one part of it? (AD assents) "A man seeking to come into being and finding us there" -- what are you saying that the 'there' refers to?

AD: A man seeking where? Where are you? (RG inaudible) "A man seeking to come into being and finding us there, for we were not outside of the universe." This man, it's this man.

RG: Right. He what?

AD: He's seeking to come into being, (RG: Right.) he's seeking to come into manifestation. No manifestation without soul.

RG: Okay, but he says "finding us there."

AD: Finding us there -- In the Intelligible.

RG: "For we were not outside of the universe"--

AD: The universe here is the Intellectual Universe, the Intelligible Universe.

RG: How did that 'other' Man find us in the Intelligible? (If he's) in the Body Monad.

AD: (I see) why he can't find him. (laughter)

RG: If he found him he wouldn't want to (inaudible)--

RC: That goes back to the first thing we read about:

Plotinus VI.4.1 (RC reading): "Soul will not appear just where body may bring it; [but] body will meet Soul awaiting it everywhere; . . ."

HS: Yes. So doesn't that agree with what Richard-- body meets soul, everywhere.

RG: Yes. If body were to enter, body can't enter-- how can body enter that-- the realm--

TS: But wherever body is--

LR: It was said before, body goes--

RG: No, no--

LR: But the Body Monad does extend into the Intelligibles--

RG: Yes, but this was what-- I was trying to say that if you take the Soul Monad as the Primal Man, and that the Body Monad is the Other Man. The Soul Monad extends through the universe, if you take let's say the fourth quadrant as the universe. (AD: yes) And the Soul Monad exists as soul in the universe in the fourth quadrant.

AD: The--?

RG: The Soul Monad exists as Soul in the fourth quadrant through the Sun and Moon [in Aquarius and Capricorn].

AD: Yes.

RG: So the Body Monad could meet, could come into being, and find us there, because it could find the Soul Monad, as Soul in the fourth quadrant. And in that sense because we are not outside of the universe. And that's how he wraps himself around us, because soul (inaudible) soul exists in the fourth quadrant.

AD: Yes, I wouldn't deny that, but the point we're making here is that when we speak about Universal Man, he says: "Even now, it is true, we are not put apart; but upon that primal Man there has intruded another." I mean, even the meaning of this here, is Primal Man, Adam Kadmon [3rd house, which includes the Soul Jupiter in Gemini], the Universal Man. So this would be the Primal Monad, and he extends all the way down into the fourth quadrant. (RG: That's what I was saying--) So finding us there, you say now that this here finds us there in the universe and pulls us down.

RG: That's how he can wrap himself around us.

AD: That's possible, that would be another way, sure.

RP: I was saying that to finding us there was to find us in the heavenly system. That is, the Augoeides or the fiery body, and the pure soul is not contaminated by it. And that conjunction point, and finding us there, the soul can be pulled down to the planetary spheres and get wrapped around them in circles of circulation of the planets to produce a so-called embodied soul. I think that goes along with some of us were gods, and some of use were-- in the heavenly circuit.

AD: Yes. That could be another interpretation, sure. Because then what you're doing is, I think, something like this here. (blackboard drawing sounds) If we take the [4th quadrant] Intellectual, and above that would be the Mars Venus, and this would be the Intellectual Monad. And then above that -- let me have (the) (inaudible) -- the rulerships right, the rulerships here would be Jupiter, Saturn, Saturn, the Jupiter okay. So this here would be like the same as Rhea, this would be the Demiurge, okay, and this would be Cronos. So again we would have the subject series here, okay, and this would be part of the subject series. So over here it's like we're part of this Cosmic Being, that's why we can consider this as part of the subject series. I could see that too.

And now we can have three versions that we could be happy with. You see, before we didn't have any--right?--before we didn't understand what we were saying.

S: Can you go over those three? (student giggles; inaudible student comments)

AD: Alright, let's read this over again.

Plotinus VI.4.14 (AD reading): "Before we had our becoming Here we existed There, men other than now, some of us gods: we were pure souls, Intelligence inbound with the entire of reality, members of the Intellectual, not fenced off, not cut away, integral to that All. Even now, it is true, we are not put apart; but upon that primal Man there has intruded another, a man seeking to come into being and finding us there, for we were not outside of the universe. This other has wound himself about us, foisting himself upon the Man that each of us was at first. Then it was as if one voice sounded, one word was uttered, and from every side an ear attended and received and there was an effective hearing, possessed through and through of what was present and active upon it: now we have lost that first simplicity; we are become the dual thing, sometimes indeed no more than that later foisting, with the primal nature dormant and in a sense no longer present."

AD: So we say there that one explanation would be that we are members of this area here, we call the Soul, okay, and in identity with the Intellectual Essence-- okay, Saturn in Cancer. Now this Cosmic Being that wants to become or manifest the universe, needs our help. That is, without, you know, the intelligence of the Soul it can't manifest. So it foists itself upon us and drags us down into manifestation. Or let's say we have to guide the disordered motion which we say we find in the Body Monads. That was one interpretation. I gave mine, now you give yours. (student snickers)

RG: Alright. That the Soul Monad as a whole, the line of the Soul Monad is the Primal Man, and the Intruder would be the Body Monad. And the Body Monad finds the Soul Monad in the fourth quadrant, and the fourth quadrant here is the universe. So Body as present in the fourth quadrant finds the Sun and Moon as soul in the universe, and there can wind itself around and -- (inaudible) "finding us there, for we were not outside of the universe" -- The universe here being the 4th quadrant and the Sun and Moon as Soul as an aspect of that Primal Man is present in that universe.

AP: How can the body find me? (student laughter) No, I'm very serious--

RG: How can the Body find you?

AP: (inaudible)

S: He says it is an aptitude.

S2: He says it has an aptitude to be found. (more inaudible student comments)

AP: Anyway, I don't know--

RG: Saturn knows where to go when it revolves around the sun--

LR: But don't your-- the bad hab(its)-- I don't know what to call it-- all the things that are dragged down by your animal nature, don't they (inaudible) (with) certain powers?

EC: But doesn't soul have to be there first before it can do that? If there's no living there, if it's not animate, it has no powers in its animate--

RG: I agree, that's another interpretation. One interpretation is that the Sun and Moon and Soul in the 4th quadrant is the other man. And that aspect of soul, the irrational aspect of soul, that wraps itself around the primal Man, the Saturn in Cancer.

AD: Then you're saying that the Sun and Moon is the Demiurge--?

RG: Yes-- Does that get at what you were saying, Eleanor?

EC: But I don't know what the others, but it helps a little bit--

RG: Yes. I can see that right there.

AD (hard to hear): (I don't see it that way.)

RG: From the line of "seeking to come into being" I mean as part of the Soul Monad, I mean the Sun and the Moon in the fourth quadrant are always existent-- From the line "seeking to coming into being" it has to be from the Body Monad. (S: Why?) I mean the fourth quadrant appears and disappears as the universe-- and the soul is present in it could arise and disappear.

AD: No, no, no. You're talking about Primal Principles, they're not going to disappear.

RG: I mean, disappear from manifestation.

RP: No, but 'Body' can seek.

AD: That's the point we ought to stick at, because you got to understand this--

RP: Well, fire goes up because it has to go to its natural place in the stars and so on. The body being displaced from its natural place, has an inborn tendency to (hard to hear, someone coughing, coughing interrupts much of discussion) return to its natural place. The body can seek out where it has to go. You see that all that time, water running downhill, and so on, the water's obviously (inaudible) seeking its own level. Now the vasanas in the Body Monad, they also are seeking their own place. Their place is wrapped around the Primal Man, and they seek to-- seek to come up to, the Man, or drag the man down, I don't know on which one you want to put the emphasis, but they crave to become manifest. So body has that tend-- you know, its own (thrust).

AD: Yes. This is going to be a very crucial point in the classes that we're doing. Because you have two sets of vasanas or two memories. Alright. Now there is one side of the story where for instance, Jung would be an example, and many of the Buddhists that are writing today, would insist that the realization of one's potential is that these vasanas should manifest. There's another point of view that says-- and another point of view which says, yes, but they have to be guided, so like the Yogacara school which is represented today by many of the Buddhists insist that the vasanas guide the development of consciousness. And there's another school that says wait a minute, unless these vasanas are guided by higher reasoning and higher principles, then all you will do will be go on manifesting these lower tendencies. So we have this division going on all the time. And he's quite serious because-- to answer what Eleanor was saying, if you think of the behavior of an atom and a molecule, you know, its persistent behavior, you could call that its vasanas, and those vasanas are always seeking to be manifest. And the way that it was put right just now, that they'll wrap themselves around any, around any entity that they could find to do that. And once you begin to see this, there'll be a tendency to regard more seriously the thrust from the animal body. Because if there's anything that divides that 7fold soul, alright, like three on the top and three on the bottom, what I would put in the middle would be the Kama Rupa. (inaudible student comment)

RP: (inaudible) When you mentioned about the Buddhists writing today, are you speaking about what's called the -- spontaneity, (inaudible).

AD: Yes.

LR: How about this as the 'other', is that part of the Body Monad within soul. In other words, Eleanor was saying how could body do anything, how could it seek out--

AD: Well, I'll tell you, here's an example, for instance, it's a small example. You go in a room where let's say the psychic atmosphere is not exactly of your choosing. You'll find out if it wraps itself around you. Or you go into an environment or you sit in an influence that's not of your nature, you'll find out if it wraps itself around you.

LR: But couldn't it be seen as those as the lower memory which are held--? The second memory, the lower memory which holds the historicity of the body. Couldn't it contact the higher soul in it's that part of the vertical Soul Monad, the part that's in the body? I don't know-- Where the vertical contacts the horizontal, there's the Sun and the Moon. So that in a sense, the Sun and Moon in the Body Monad is never apart from Soul-- (inaudible)

AD: Wait, wait, I mean this division here is just to allow for that intermediate -- you can take out this division and they'll be alongside each other. And it isn't that there is a temporality here at all involved.

LR: But I'm saying--I don't know-- what I'm saying is that if you look at the vertical Soul Monad or the--

AD: The vertical Soul?

RG: The Sun (inaudible).

LR: (inaudible) What is it called?

S: The third quadrant.

LR: The third quadrant, okay, on the vertical.

AD: (assents)

LR: That's the soul quadrant, and it does have the Sun and Moon as its Body. And in that sense that Sun and Moon is also part of the Body Monad. And to say that it's that part of the Body Monad which is never apart from soul.

AD: Well, this would be the actual physical manifestation of the planetary system.

LR: But what would it mean for an individual?

AD: What would it mean like for instance, the soul, alright, the soul of this system would be up here?

LR: Yes.

AD: Okay. Let's say it's reflected-- In other words, the manifested planetary system or the 7 spheres, alright, that they are manifesting that soul, alright, but that's not so. This is a physical manifestation. If it was possible for us to conceive of the possibility of separating the physical from the laws which are embodied-- we'd say those laws would be the soul, and this would be the physical manifestation.

LR: I don't see how you can say that--

AD: Well, that's exactly the point I can say, even in error, even if I'm in error I'm going to hold onto this. I'm going to say that these three levels above it, alright, are pure primal spiritual simple substances, never to be confused with what is here down in the Body Monad. And there is a point, somewhere, I forgot where, where Plotinus makes the remark-- he says these are above even the primal heavens. [Note: See Plotinus, V.1.10, third para.]

LR: But still looking at the vertical, looking at the third quadrant, that Sun and Moon is in that quadrant, it is in the Soul quadrant.

RP: Can I try at Linda's question? I think that you could see the body that's reflected there, and the body that's denoted by the Sun and Moon in the 3rd quadrant. (LR: Yes.) Then the vasanas would not be *in*, they would not be opaque, they would not be what the psychoanalysts call unconscious. You would see them right there--

LR: There's no latency--

RP: There's no latency, you'd see that which-- you see those vasanas which go to make up the world, in a psychical sense, in a third quadrant sense. As-- the word isn't manifest --knowable as opposed to inferable. Now in the fourth [quadrant] there you have them as creeping up on you.

LR: I didn't connect with that, I understood what you're saying but--

RP: I thought the answer was--

LR: The question was raised, How could the body go (seek this). We all know it does in some way, all experience valid (inaudible). And I was just pointing out that there is a part of that body Monad, which is enlivened by soul.

RP: No.

LR: Which remains in the Body Monad but it still has contact with--

RP: No, I would say-- (inaudible) -- it seems that they're (inaudible) the body I would say, or the Sun and Moon, would be very objective to the soul, it has not yet creeped up and demanded the soul's-- um --losing its knowledge and seeking into it, it would be objective, it would be the basis of let's say occult knowledge.

LR: It's the organization of soul (inaudible)--

RP: No, it's the Sun and Moon, and there in the third quadrant-- (LR: Yes.) Is the basis of the organization of the body, of the whole fourth quadrant as a matter of fact, that is the body aspect. (LR: Yes--) But it's not yet-- it is transparent to the soul, it is not yet something which sneaks up on the soul, and embodies it, causes it to fall into it. (LR: Yes.) Because that's the soul's process, that level of body is very objective to the soul, there's not that identification with it.

LR: I still wouldn't--

RP: I wouldn't call the Soul in the third quadrant embodied.

LR: Not the body of the Soul, but (inaudible) instead as light.

RP: It's transparent to the soul. (LR: Yes.) It's still body, in the sense as seen as potentiates, seen as vasanas.

LR: Yes. I'm sorry, Richard. I-- it's very hard for me when you're speaking about an individual, to when you're talking about the world now, an individual body and the world body.

RP: The individual has a body, too, now. I would say that the individual-- if the individual had a permanent soul, too, objective to that permanent soul in the third quadrant would be a body, which would contain within it all that the entire historical development of that soul will go, in its lifetime, as objective to it, not as identified with it. It would look down upon its body as a (inaudible), a scenario, a karmic history as opposed to a cultural history.

LR: But that's why started out--

AD: Well, why don't we go to the next paragraph? Why don't you read a little bit from the next paragraph? Where he says something interesting there. How does this intruder find entrance?

RP continues: (inaudible) body monad--

Plotinus VI.4.15 (RG reading): "But how did this intruder find entrance?

"It had a certain aptitude and it grasped at that to which it was apt. In its nature it was capable of soul: but what is unfitted to receive soul entire--present entire but not for it--takes what share it may; such are the members of the animal and vegetal order. Similarly, of a significant sound some forms of being take sound and significance together, others only the sound, the blank impact.

"A living thing . . ."

AD: (inaudible) I would suggest that it seems to say that this Body Monad is very limited in what it could take from Soul, it has very severe limitations.

RG: And what it takes, it shows that the soul and the vegetal soul will be (inaudible).

AD: And that higher part is not allowed yet to show through.

LR: But--

S: Is he talking about the qualities here that were referred to before?

AD: Like whiteness.

S: A white color in itself would be a certain lower portion, let's say a lower portion of the soul?

AD: Again--

S: He seems to be referring to, referring to a let's say a portion of the soul that deals with qualities, these qualities can refer back, and they can be taken back in some way into the higher portion, they like signify the higher portion. It's true he said [cf. VI.4.1] that qualities are distributed amongst body, and he says it's not like the soul which is not distributed. But in some sense it signifies the soul when you take it in their pure form. By the color(ness), it is not really distributed but in some sense it is also distributed-- it's a twofold nature. (coughing throughout, hard to hear in places) (silence) Like sound that is not significant would be just the impact of it, just like the color attached to a body, with no significance attached to a soul. Significance would be attached to soul.

AD: I think that sentence was referring to-- it's an analogy, the analogy here is that there are certain things that let's say, certain parts or --let's say that the totality of all the Body Monad could only absorb a very small portion of the soul, it could only deal (with) or use a very small portion of the Soul. And the rest has to be left alone. And in the same way I think-- I'm sorry-- I think that that sentence is an analogy saying that just like you may hear a certain sound and it may have significance; on the other hand you may hear a certain sound and it has no meaning, therefore there would be no significance. I think that's an analogy with what went ahead. I mean, that's the way I interpreted that passage, I don't follow what you're doing at all--

For the lower body, the Body Monad, anything above a certain level is like incomprehensible to the Body Monad. Body Monad cannot understand these levels of soul, for instance, they're absolutely incomprehensible. It's just like I could be speaking to you in Japanese or something and you would hear the sound but it would have no meaning. And for the Body Monad to try to take on these higher aspects of the soul, it would be meaningless. I mean, that's the way I'm interpreting it. It's just an analogy: ". . . significant sound some forms of being take sound and significance together, others only the sound, the blank impact." So like this would be *blank* --the body Monad. The only thing that would be meaningful to the Body Monad is let's say over here.

LR: So tell me, if you were to specify within the Body Monad, that part which held the memory, the lower memory, the historicity of the body, which part of the Body Monad would you refer to? The Sun and the Moon--

AD: Over here.

LR: (inaudible)

AD: The very end.

LR: That would be the memory for the Body Monad?

AD: We're speaking about an actual body. I'm speaking of an actual body.

LR: Yes. Well-- what do you mean actual body, I mean--

AD: Well, indiscriminately, whether we refer to a body as a life-atom, or to it as an atom in an ordinary sense, that we've learned scientifically, it has a certain type of behavior which is the result of all prior experiencing.

LR: Yes. And that behavior would manifest itself in that Jupiter and Mercury [in Capricorn, in Pisces, fall planets in 4th quadrant].

AD: Yes.

LR: But-- there would be something prior, you would say the samskaras of that behavior or the rules of conduct of that behavior would be contained in the-- in the Sun and the Moon [third quadrant fall planets], I would think.

AD: No, no. I keep these two distinct, the vasanas here, and the Forms of the Soul in here, I keep very distinct.

LR: I'm not talking about them--

AD: Okay.

LR: I'm talking about in the Body Monad--

AD: The bottom line here.

LR: Yes. Now you got the Jupiter and Mercury, you say that's part of body which manifests the activity of body. Now it seems to me that the Sun and the Moon--

AD: Over here--

LR: Would contain the rules of conduct to which a body must adhere or--

AD: The rules--

LR: The samskaras um which govern the operation or the manifestation of that body. Just like in the individual there's the part which is actually living and perceiving and acting out what's given to it by certain samskaras in its nature. I'm just differentiating those two parts. If the body is manifesting itself through that Jupiter and Mercury, but exactly that will come, exactly how that body is manifested will be--

AD: Well, if we go along this way, and we would have to allow our--let's say, this is the annamaya kosha, the annarasakosha, okay, and this would be the manomaya and the pranomaya, alright, and vijnanamaya and the anandamaya, but all of these (inaudible, someone coughing) would have samskaras that are peculiar to *it*. Whether we think of an individual or we think of a cosmos. So the samskaras for instance that go into the formation of the rational universe-- I'm sorry, planetary spheres-- are not going to be equivalent or similar to the vasanas that go into the making of the corporeal frame. And again the vasanas, let's say, that are operative at this level are not to be confused with those that are operative at, let's say, the level of the rational soul, the 7 planetary spheres. If we're dealing with this, these are the only ones we'd be comfortable with. But certainly if we thought of an individual we would say there would be a peculiarity, there would be higher memories and lower memories (with bodies) containers. Alright, let's say if we use Jung's terminology, like over here you would have the archetypes okay, and then as you kept going down, you would get into the psychoid realm, where, so to speak, you would have to descend below the sympathetic nervous system alright, where -- and even below that to get into what he calls the absolute knowledge. And what I'm saying now is that Jung very often confuses his archetypes okay, with these here, whereas what he's talking about all the time the archetypes in the body. So the vasanas could go right across--

LR: Okay.

RG: Can I-- (AD: Sure--) If this is the manifested body here, the corporeal manifested body, those would have to be samskaras that somehow precede the manifestation here, the condition, the form of the manifest? Where would we find those samskaras?

AD: Be more explicit.

RG: Okay. This is the manifested body, the world as manifested in the Jupiter and Mercury, this world as manifest has a preceding samskara or set of vasanas that go into constituting and making up the manifested appearance.

AD: Yes.

RG: Okay. Where do we locate those samskaras or vasanas that go into constituting this appearance?

AD: I would go to the prior.

RG: Right. That's what you think okay, that's what you-- (some student chuckles)

AD: Alright, can we go--

RG: (inaudible) Two steps--

AD: Can we go one step further?

LR: If you did that to Dickie, then-- (student laughter)

AD: Well, let me go over that (inaudible) that much. Ultimately, ultimately the entirety of the Body Monad is based on the forms in the Soul. Ultimately.

LR: Yes. But that was exactly where I started out, which was that the Sun and Moon which contain the memory of the lower Man in the form of those samskaras of the body, and you look at the vertical happens to contact the soul quadrant. And the question of how could anything in the body bring down something from a higher aspect of the soul is answered in that diagram.

RG: Because here the samskaras that are a condition for the appearance of the body is the body of the soul's body--

LR et al.: Wait a second!

AD: Go ahead, Linda--

LR: Did you understand what I was trying to say?

AD: I'm sorry, no.

LR: Okay. You just admitted to Richard (inaudible)

RG: I should probably go.

LR: (inaudible) Alright, you can explain to me, sorry.

RG: If the prior samskara that conditions the appearance of the body is the Sun and Moon in the third quadrant, then you're saying the contact, a contact point between the soul and the body is through these samskaras which is the body as the body of the Soul quadrant. And that's how the body can contact the soul and entwine itself around the primal Man.

AD: Well, you see, I was thinking of this realm here like the subtle body, alright, and the subtle body would be like the container of all the samskaras which (students assent) (inaudible) from here.

RG: Right.

AD: Uh-huh. And I don't see the connection yet (between--)

RG: Well she's saying on the other hand, that's the container of the samskaras, and this is also the body aspect of the Soul of the third quadrant, of the Soul quadrant.

AD: Yes, which would be a very immaterial substance (RG: Right.) like Light.

[Audio File 1981 0204c ends. We are missing the rest of the audio files for this class.]