Class
Wednesday, August 4th, 1982
Verbatim, unedited transcriptCLASS at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY
with Anthony Damiani (AD)
August 4, 1982
PB PARAS; CATEGORIZING PARAS
TOPIC: PB Paras
SUBJECT: Categorizing Paras
SUBSUBJECTS: PB Publication Project, How to run a PB Paras class, PB Paras on Emotions and Ethics, The Negatives, Reflections, Mentalism, Philosophy
CONTENTS:
ABOUT PB PARAS FOR PUBLICATION
THE DECISION TO HAVE STUDENTS READ AND PICK PARAS TO INCLUDE IN PUBLICATION AND CLASS DISCUSSION
CATEGORIZING THE PARAS; READING PARAS ON PHILOSOPHY AND MENTALISM
KINDS OF PARAS THAT CAN BE INCLUDED UNDER EMOTIONS AND ETHICS; SUBHEADS (SUB-CATEGORIES) AND WHAT GOES IN THEM
READING PARA ON GOODNESS AND DISCUSSING HOW TO PROPERLY CLASSIFY IT
GET TO THE CORE IDEA TO JUDGE THE CATEGORY IN WHICH TO PLACE A PARA
RE-EDUCATING FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS
PB ON HIS OWN WRITINGS
BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:
Paul Brunton, Notebooks. 16 vols; Vol. 1 entitled Perspectives [Persp.], published 1984-1988. Some Paul Brunton Notebook paras are, as of 2018, unpublished, and are noted as such.
Paul Brunton, The Quest of the Overself
Plotinus, The Enneads (MacKenna translation, 4th ed.)
NOTES:
This seems to be the first class on the PB paras – much discussion on how to categorize and publish the paras and how to proceed in the PB classes.
Unpublished PB paras should be sourced and proofread.
TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT 2019; reformatted by JRM & JF 2019-2020, with TOC/Subheads by JRM. In 2023, IT updates prefatory matter, footer, and audio file name, alters Subject, Subsubjects, and most Subheads to make more accurate, completes Book List, fixes typos/errors. Archival verbatim transcript – V14.1a.
AUDIO FILES: 1982 0804a, 1982 0804b, 1982 0804c. [Note 1: "Tape" and "Side" refer to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files. Note 2: It's possible that we are missing one or more audio files for this class as the transition between audio files a and b and b and c seems a little rough. Note 3: Audio files digitized out of order, please see below for new names.]
| NEW FILE NAME | OLD FILE NAME |
| 1982 0804a | 1982 0804c |
| 1982 0804b | 1982 0804b |
| 1982 0804c | 1982 0804a |
1982 08/04 at Wisdom's Goldenrod
PB Paras; Categorizing Paras
Archival verbatim transcript
ABOUT PB PARAS FOR PUBLICATION
[Audio File 1982 0804a (formerly 1982 0804c) Begins]
RC: --has worked with Tim and I on this project so far knows we're not qualified to do it. And, we have about, oh, probably 12,000 pages of notes on Ideas. And, they came in three stages. And, the ones that are called Ideas have been gone over twice-- at least twice by PB. The ones called Middle Ideas it's been gone over at least once after they've been written. And the ones that were called Rough were just written up and then typed and they hadn't been gone over. Often it turns out that the Rough and the Middle ones are better, maybe partly because they're more recent and didn't need as much revision. But, what we've been involved in is-- PB changed his classification system when-- when Tim was there and the numbers in the notebooks that are in the library aren't the numbers in that system. So we've been converting things over to the numbers in the new system. And, I think what we're going to do now is to start seeing how we can arrange that material.
The only idea we've gotten so far is that-- in terms of how to publish it is if we make like a first book that goes and covers all the categories, one-- there's 28 categories. And, if we pick out the ones, say, well five to ten pages in each category, and pick out the ones that are the best at different levels, either technically for a more advanced student or inspirationally or even something that just has a particularly attractive way of putting it, something that would be accessible to a-- a beginner or someone who may be about to begin, and we'd like to get about five to ten pages of material together on each of the categories and put out a book like that that shows the whole overview. And we put a little card in it that says well there's about 12,000 pages of this kind of material, (some laughter) and any one of the categories could be made into a whole book. And figure that the order of how we'll publish the-- publish them in more detail we'd set up in response to what came back in in terms of those cards; like you get a couple thousand cards that came back in that a lot of people wanted to see more material about one particular thing then we do that one next and kind of work our way into it that way in terms of trying to make the material available in keeping with the kind of demand that there is for it.
Trouble I have in terms of doing it with a class situation is, most of the categories don't lend themselves very easily to discussion. It's kind of something he said and that's pretty much the way it is. But I guess we could begin at the beginning, beginning with the first category. And that's the-- the Quest itself, I mean-- What it's meant to do is just give an overview of what the Quest itself is. And, PB's subheadings for it that he was using, the first one was basically what it is to choose the Quest, what-- what it means that a person would make-- make the kind of choice to consciously engage in what he would call the Quest. And the second sub-category is quotes about how it has to be-- has to involve this certain amount of independence given that what each person needs is a little bit different from what each other person needs and-- The necessity of maintaining a spiritual independence is really stressed and it's distinguished from what it means to be an egotist.
Then the third subcategory, it's about organized groups. There's several different-- several different perspectives that he talks about organized groups under. And, in his first category it seems the ones that fit in there are mostly how at certain stages for certain people and especially for beginners organized groups can be a-- a real help. And, at other stages, eventually for everyone, organized groups can come to be a defeating influence in terms of what the person's really trying to do. And he talks about it from both perspectives, [S, faint: Not just one.] how they can be good and how they can be bad and how to evaluate your relationship to them and see if it's good or bad for you at the time.
And the next sub-category is self-development. The way I've been understanding that one is quotes that refer on the one hand to how the-- the Quest really is self-development in the sense that your own latent spiritual resources are being brought into an active application to your daily life in the world--mental powers, emotional powers, spiritual powers--and how all those things are brought out in the course of the Quest. But on the other hand how it has to be self-development, the-- we can't-- nobody else can do it for you and, if you're going to get anywhere it's going to be because you did it, at least up to a certain point. Even given that Grace has to take over at a certain point to get you really out from under the ego's domination, [short pause] you have to do the things that will make it possible for that Grace to operate and--
Then the last thing under that category, it's Student-Teacher. And that involves, at least the way I understand it, what it means to be a student on the one hand, what the real teacher really is. He says that ultimately it's-- it's your own Overself, how it could appear to you at-- in different ways at different stages, a book, a situation, a-- some type of life circumstance that you're in, a meeting with a person or developing a relationship with a person who actually operates as a teacher for you, if you should meet such a person what sort of qualifications you should expect to have in-- in them and what you should still be expected to do for yourself in order to allow them to be any good to you, because just because they're capable of it doesn't mean you're going to let them do it. And, then if you think you've reached a stage where you think you can teach somebody then what sort of things you better ask yourself, if you think you're qualified to teach anybody.
So that's all stuff that I understand comes under the first category according to the subheads that we had to work with. And I've been tending to include a couple other things under there, things that refer to the different stages of the Quest, and also things that refer to how can you tell if you're progressing or how can you tell if certain thoughts that you have about thinking you're progressing is really deluding yourself. That's the way I basically see that category, I don't know, Tim do you see more stuff in it?
TS: I guess-- I mean I guess-- The first one on there "Its Choice," that there are some quotes where-- which speak about that there's like a point in many people's lives where a choice will be presented [RC: Yeah.] and you can either take the steeper path of trying to follow the Quest or go down into the masses, but then he does speak about you got choices there and then [RC: Yeah that--] that process of being separated out. I think that those quotes I would put in that first category.
RC: Definitely. Definitely.
TS: Otherwise it's--
RC: I think things too about how it must be a choice in order to be called the Quest.
TS: Yeah.
RC: That even though everybody is unconsciously doing the same thing, like it or not, to make a conscious decision at the level of the person that you take yourself to be, that you should be much more than you really are when it comes right down to it and that you're going to actively take a hand in changing that. There really must be a choice that you get involved in seems to be what separates it out if you say all your-- It's like you've made a vow to yourself, you know. Situation comes up where inwardly and maybe even only dimly 'cause ego comes that you've made a decision that you're going to do something about the existential situation that you're in and now it becomes a conscious-- conscious effort from there on. [short pause] But like I said, that category in particular, even though it's the first one, and it makes sense that we should probably start at the beginning. But not too many of the things lend themselves that much to discussion. I mean it might be helpful to see what some of them are.
TS: Well maybe some of them could use a little bit of commentary though.
RC: Yeah.
TS: And it's not an elaboration or-- point out what-- what's being said 'cause some-- some of those paras are pretty terse.
RC: Yeah. [short pause] So what do you think Anthony, should we do that or should we--
AD: Well, I think we ought to try to discuss a little bit how you want it. What would we want to do with these in a class, I mean how would-- if we let them have a class on them how would we-- what would be the goal? And, then the second thing that come up is, how can we combine what we want to do in class with helping them get together in, you know, some form for publication so that we could combine doing class work on them or discussing them-- I-- I agree, a lot of things are just said and there's nothing to-- you know, there's no commentary. But, there's many that can sustain discussion because there might be misinterpretation. But I would say, first, how could we benefit, you know, in reading these notes and what-- how would we have to organize ourselves or what would be the goal towards which we're working, and then try to combine that with what we-- what you want to do until (next time) in terms of putting together something for publication. So I think we have these two things to think about, and maybe we should discuss that right now. In other words like you want do 1, I'd like to do 11 (right away).
RC: Let's do 11.
AD: Huh?
RC: Let's do 11.
S (very faint): Let's do 11.
AD: The Negatives.
RC: Yeah. Sure.
S (very faint): What did he say?
S: Is that The Negatives?
S (simultaneously, very faint): (Let's do) The Negatives.
AS: No.
VM: Yeah.
LR: That was easy.
[few seconds of background student talking, bit of laughter]
RC: Yeah the-- The Negatives.
S: Oh The Negatives? (some laughter)
RC: Subcategory 1, "Their Roots in the Ego". "Presence in the World," "Thoughts, Feelings, Violent Passions," and-- [short pause] I guess it really comes down to, you know, recognizing the activity of the principle that you'd have to call evil both in the world and in yourself.
S (very faint): Yeah.
S (faint): Right.
AD: Well let me ask you this, Randy. Do you have-- have people given you or have some people worked on number 11 for instance to the extent where there's enough of them that we could read them in class and discuss them, see those that we want to discuss, those that we don't want to discuss, and maybe read them off, decide which ones we want to discuss, and then after discussion decide if that's the kind of material you'd like to enclose, you know, for publication.
RC: I think probably (ever/if)-- if I'm picking up on what you're thinking, the kind of negatives that you want to talk about I think would be coming under 6 [AD simultaneously: Would what?] rather than 11. Because most of the stuff that has been-- being dealt with there is the stuff that Richard has in terms of-- Richard Platek has in terms of the-- you know, the real [VM simultaneously: Political situation.] obvious negatives, like the Nazis' development in Germany and-- the guys that have played for the other team.
AD (simultaneously): Well I-- I want-- I want more personal matters.
RC (simultaneously): Yeah, yeah. But that one's really more the guys in the other jerseys, and, (bit of laughter) things in terms of dealing with your personal negativity and uplifting character, purifying your passions, disciplining emotions and things like that, most of them go under 6.
S (faint): (Uh-hm/Yeah).
AD: They go under 6?
RC: Yeah.
[short pause]
AD (faint): Want to repeat that?
RC: It's called Emotions and Ethics.
SC (simultaneously): Isn't 11 called The Ego? Wasn't that the one that's called The Ego?
RC (simultaneously): 8. 8's called The Ego.
SC: Oh I see.
AS (simultaneously): Isn't (the/there) one--
BC: I keep confusing them in the old system (state/stage).
TS (faint, possibly part of background): Oh I got that.
BC: People have been using the old systems, they don't have (the/a) new systems.
RC: Yeah.
BC: So you shouldn't declare them. They're indefinite. (bit of laughter)
[13 second pause with faint background student talking]
S: Randy?
RC: Yeah.
S: Are you talking about Volume 11 as it's listed up there at the library?
RC/S(?): No.
S: Oh.
S: Might be something else.
S: Well--
S: Well that's--
THE DECISION TO HAVE STUDENTS READ AND PICK PARAS TO INCLUDE IN PUBLICATION AND CLASS DISCUSSION
AD: No, what you have-- [AS simultaneously: Yes, that's the karma.] what we have to do is go through notes, just go through them. And every time you see one that's under-- let's say that you can categorize as negative, you pull it out, alright, write it up, and we get a whole list of them. You know, like let's say we get a hundred of them. And then we read them in class and discuss them. Pick out those that we think are worthwhile for publication and let the rest be for a while anyway. And that's what I had in mind, [RC assents] something like that.
RC: Ok.
AD: So that we would on the one hand benefit in class and on the other hand trying to proceed organizing some of them for publication.
RC: So you mean specifically other people during the week.
AD (simultaneously): See that's-- that's the Short Path.
RC: Yeah. People during the week reading, picking out the things that are meaningful to them and bringing it to class.
AD: Yeah.
RC: Yeah. That would be very helpful.
AD (simultaneously): So, it would be some-- it would require participation on the part of many people.
RC: Well I went through-- I went through the Volume 6's. And, it was like getting my teeth pulled.
AD: And then you got the point.
RC: Yeah.
AD: Well could we hear any others or-- or anyone who has any idea? Or is the miss asleep?
AB: Ok, Randy? You're thinking about leaving aside the essays for the time being. Like [RC simultaneously: For the time being.] he'll have an essay on a whole topic and go into it in quite detail(--/.)
RC (simultaneously): Yeah Anthony's been going through the essays and picking out the ones that he thinks are the best and having them typed up, put together for like publication as a book of essays. [9¼ second pause] This 1 through 28 material seems to present a-- a breadth of vision and the wholeness of the-- the kind of path that PB was trying to articulate that--
[short pause]
DB: Randy?
RC (faint): Yeah.
DB: Is the idea that let's say we have a particular class on, what is it 6 or whatever, and there are a hundred quotes (or/and) what part of the quotes are on, and they're read and they're discussed and so forth, now is the idea that some of the elaborations and conclusions from whatever discussion takes place would be incorporated into the publication of the [S simultaneously: Yeah.] [couple words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Any-- no, no, his-- his words remain alone.
RC: I was just thinking in terms of the selection process that-- that was the idea of getting feedback from you people to begin with was that-- and different people find different things meaningful, and, rather than to have it, you know, funneled into the narrow little needs that I have or that Tim has in terms of selecting which ones are important, to get some feedback and see if a lot of people find a certain one important. I basically feel that anything that anybody here would advise meaningful is going to be useful to somebody else. And, getting that kind of, you know, broadness of perspective.
AS: That (does like) [one/two words inaudible] I mean after-- after you've gone through and read a whole bunch of the quotes that people like you should be able to get out of that five or ten pages worth, [RC: Yeah.] the best ones.
RC: Yeah it would probably be good if maybe rather than just getting those things right on the class night if we could get them like [AS: Oh before.] a night or two before and go through them and [AS simultaneously: Uh-hm. What if--] see which ones there are a lot of and--
AS: How is the process coming of, you know, people's lists of quotes that they'd like various places coming in here (and--)
RC (simultaneously): Well, Richard's being doing that and-- along with Beverly and Linda.
AS (simultaneously): No but I mean do you have a bun-- are there a bunch of quotes in those lists?
RC: Yeah there are. There are.
AS: So I mean that might be a good starting point too.
RC: Yeah.
AS: Right? I mean [RC simultaneously: What else--] starting with the--
RC: Yeah that's what we've been doing is figuring as those come in then we put a class number on them and put them in their appropriate place.
AS (simultaneously): Al-- also when-- when you had people-- when you (had/have) people editing the paras, some people are actually-- aren't some people actually starring the ones that [RC: Yeah.] they thought were particularly representative or stood out for some--
RC: Yeah. Usually it turned out--
AS: About half of them, right?
RC: Well, it could be that way. Some people if they wrote a whole thing should be starred. But it was pretty obvious that different people would find different things meaningful. And that was kind of what brought in the idea, you know, opening it up even broader.
AS: But like I mean say from that volume on Negatives, would you have say a hundred paras right now that people turned in?
S (faint): In volume (7)?
RC (simultaneously): No that's a depressing book. (bit of laughter)
S (faint): Which one?
S (faint): Which one?
S (very faint): (What?)
S: The book likes the light?
S (simultaneously, faint): Sneak it in.
RC: It's not [one/two words inaudible]
MW: Right.
CS: It's not in the library?
S (simultaneously): No.
S: Yeah.
S: It's not 6?
S (faint): Oh it's not there, we'll [couple words inaudible]
AS: No, no, [S simultaneously: Oh yeah.] I think-- [S simultaneously, faint: He means it's Emotions and Ethics.] I think it's the one that's-- I guess I'm confused. The one that's 11, there's one there that's The Ego, The Negatives. Now that one isn't in six there, right?
RC: Right.
AS: That's in about 11 or something.
RC (simultaneously): 9.
S (simultaneously): There's nothing up there.
AS: I thought 9 was the one that's the World Situation. Maybe [student assents, faint] I'm confused.
S: Well let's do 11.
S: And I hear The Ego and I just read it.
AS: Yeah, yeah 11 is the one-- The one that-- the one that's up there, the old number 11, the one-- you know, the one-- the one that--
TS (simultaneously): (Delivery.)
AS: The way that they are up there.
S: The Ego.
TS: If you give the title and then it doesn't matter.
AS: The Ego?
S: One quote.
RC: The Ego?
AS: Ego and its Negatives. I thought there was a lot of those Negatives.
RC (simultaneously): Ok now the way The Ego is-- the way The Ego is set up now-- (laughter)
AS (amidst laughter): Isn't there a lot of-- The ego's set up [S simultaneously: (No it's not.)] (now) I bet there are a lot of negatives.
VM: Badly.
RC: The Ego's set up now, the-- the category's The Ego. It's number 8. And the first subheading is "What am I?" The second subheading is the "I-thought" and the third is the "Psyche". And that's mostly addressed to philosophical [AS simultaneously: Oh so that's (three/few words inaudible)] analysis of what the ego is.
AS: Oh so then that's not where [couple words inaudible]
RC: Right.
AS: So you're saying it's now under the new 6.
RC: That's what I think is the kind of stuff that Anthony's talking about now.
S (faint): Why don't you read?
S (very faint): Isn't that (the 14)?
RC: Where--
S: So what are we looking for?
RG (simultaneously): Go up there and get it.
TS: I think that something that would be helpful in terms of the-- preparing some kind of-- something for publication would be-- besides, you know, I think beginning with going over a group of paragraphs and discussing them or just trying to cull them and pull out the essential ones, but if that was done for a number of group-- different categories maybe some of the feeling for what the sense of what the different i-- categories really are trying to get at [RC assents] would be brought out. I think in terms of the classification process and organization process would be, you know, more efficient, more-- more correct through that kind of [RC assents] activity, see, so instead of just understanding specific paras we'd be trying to understand that whole category through the specific (light). Right.
AS: Yeah Tim that might not be bad anyway, to get off the point-- you know, to give an overview, a sampling [couple words inaudible]
AD: Try to take a look at it this way. I-- I think you're not beginners anymore. Have some awareness, some of you have even been put through some difficulties. You're beginning to see where your values are and what you want to align yourself with. So your pin-- your opinion does have some value I think in terms of, you know, if anything is published, I would consider your opinions. Now one of the things I like to mention is of course PB was not primarily, primarily concerned let's say with like studies we are (now). He was-- his function was more in the nature of a general awakener. If he want-- he attempts to reach a very broad class of people. So that's one of the things we always have to keep in mind. Now my preoccupation or our preoccupation or what we're doing should not come into the (diction).
[students assent, very faint]
RC: It's real interesting, I found a lot of stuff in his-- and Jeff probably saw them too, he says things about the Short Path. And one of the exercises that he talks about the most for the Short Path is focusing on trying to understand the nature and the structure and the way that the Overself operates.
AD: The way?
RC: The way that the Overself operates. And it's almost like-- that's almost all that we're doing here is just focusing on trying to see how that-- that chart which is really an image of the higher self is working.
AD (faint): How many of you(--) do you think we did that for a couple [one word inaudible] (bit of laughter)
RC: It'd probably be a Short Path. (bit of laughter)
AD: Somebody else is-- is doing the Short Path who said it's not the Easy Path.
RC: There's one quote that says a constant preoccupation with how the Overself operates is what essentially constitutes the Short Path.
S (very faint): Yeah.
S (very faint): What'd he say?
LR (very faint): Can you speak up a little?
S (faint): Randy's (motto).
EMD: Randy can you speak louder please?
RC: Yeah, sure.
EMD: Thank you.
RC: Is that not working?
S (faint): It's not [one/two words inaudible]
AS (simultaneously): But there's an amplifier in here.
S: With rain it's very hard.
S (simultaneously, faint): [few words inaudible]
S (simultaneously with both S's): It's very hard to hear anything.
RC (very faint): You should go.
AD (faint): Yeah.
AH: Anthony, at the risk-- you mentioned that you would value opinion. You're talking about opinion about what quote that we discussed or opinions about the quotes?
AD: Both, both. I'd like people to pick out let's say a paragraph, you know, say why they think it's good. Well, they pick it out. For them it's important. Then I'd like them also to explain why and also what their opinion is about the paragraph so that we have class discussion and not opinion. Don't make the mistake, many of these things are so simple that they're misinterpreted before you even start. They require a little effort. They require a little subtlety at times. So a discussion of them would be (more--) And we would benefit by it and at the same time we'd know what category to put it in and it would be some one selected among many. So right there there would be a lot of things done at one time. That's what I mean I'd like to combine taking advantage-- you know, using the class, having a class on it and also using the class, you know, as a sounding board, experimental, true but, we can kind of get a feeling of what we think people who are interested in his writing would-- would want.
RC: So you wanted to start like, basically anything that anybody's read that they think [S simultaneously, faint: Yeah. Yeah.] applies specifically to dealing with negativity. And give that [couple words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Yeah. Of course I was being facetious when I said I wanted to start with The Negatives but anything that interests someone, alright. (bit of laughter)
S (amidst laughter): Reaching (out/up).
S: Yeah.
NH: One thing that I've noticed about, you know, when people brought down quotes that interest them is that they're often out of context in that you really can't get a flavor for the whole thing unless you've, you know, read a few paragraphs before. I don't know how you want to deal with that but-- And some of them are definitely related to the paragraphs above.
RC: Yeah that actually happens very seldom though because that order is-- that order came to me about-- PB generally wrote down on little slips of paper wherever he happened to be at the time and they'd end up in a pocket of a zip coat and eventually get found and put in a box and the box would eventually get class numbers put on it and they'd get stuck in an envelope and then that would get sent out to a typist and he or she would take it out of the envelope and put all the little slips of paper together and type them in that order. So--
NH (faint): So maybe just a full body instead, but I don't know.
RC: I haven't seen a whole lot of continuity. I mean I see the few where I group three or four paragraphs together or one or two but, most of the time I'm kind of working with the assumption that the order's pretty arbitrary. In fact Tim had the experience when he was there one time that he-- he picked out and tried to put some order and PB looked at them and said "It looks to me like you've done some arranging here. I don't want them arranged." (some laughter)
NH: I was thinking particularly of those paragraphs that start with "He is one who," you know, and he's talking about say the Sage, and that needs to be clarified. Now I don't know how, you know, in the context of a-- of a book written on it, you don't want to change the wording and yet you need to know who "he" is.
VM (simultaneously, faint): Classification C.
RC (simultaneously): Yeah well there's a category that talks about Saints and Sages.
NH: Uh-hm.
S (very faint): It's over there.
MC: Would it be possible for you to enumerate on the blackboard these different categories?
RC: We could just post a sheet. We don't have to go through them.
AS: They're (up at all).
RC: We could--
AS: Aren't-- aren't [couple words inaudible]
RC (simultaneously): I don't think the new sheet's up there.
AS: Up there probably on a-- there's an old sheet.
RC: Yeah.
BS (faint): Just give him that old--
RC (simultaneously): Well that-- even that old sheet's wrong.
AD: Ran-- Randy, I think those who are definitely interested in doing this, you know, and don't have the college habit, you know, coming to a lecture or something, [RC assents] who want to make a contribution or-- or get in it somewhere (bit of laughter) or another can-- I think that they should all have, you know, among these here 29 categories.
S: Uh-hm.
AS (simultaneously): (28), [LR simultaneously: Yeah.] well--
AD: So that this way they could, you know, maybe organize and systematically go about attacking some of the things that interest them.
RC: Yeah. And like each week we could focus on a certain topic.
AD (simultaneously): In other words, in other words, what we're saying is, you're mature enough now to start doing something on your own. Grow up, you're not going to forever be taught. [short pause] And this is a good way to grow up. (bit of laughter) You read a couple, a few pages of this and you're-- you're-- you begin to get a kind of a idea of just about where you are, what you should be doing, what your values are, what do you really find, you know. Are you ready for the troubles ahead.
LR/S(?) (faint): But do you know what you pray for.
[short pause]
AD: Do you want to experiment and read a couple offhandedly and see--
RC: Well if we're going to do 6 maybe we should talk about that category, get into that a little bit, pick out some things that fit that way. I don't have it with me but we probably have it in the library.
AD: Yeah, let's do that. You want it-- do you want one of these?
S: Yeah.
RC: No I don't need that, I meant the book itself.
VM: J-- does Jeanne have it, is Jeanne here?
AD (simultaneously): I have (all the) volumes here you can choose from.
RC: Have you got 6-- have you got 6, yeah.
AD: I'll tell you what's here.
RG: Which one do you want to do Anthony?
AD (simultaneously): 10, 11, 12, 9, 26, 28. (laughter)
RG: So pick-- pick one out that you want to do.
AS: The one that's in-- it's the old one that's number 11. (bit of laughter, student words)
AD: You want 6?
RG: What do you want?
LR (simultaneously): What's 11 there?
S (faint): It's 11 there, is that the--
S (very faint): (Negatives/Ethics).
AD: No. I got that.
NH: Yeah is that--
AD (faint): They don't have that. [short pause with faint background AD and student talking] One of these is for instance-- has a great deal-- a great deal of matter on mentalism.
RG: So that's a good topic for a class.
RC: That's 15 I think.
S (faint): That's great.
S (simultaneously, faint): This is-- yeah.
AS: What?
S (faint): That's great.
RC: Herbie's got that.
S (faint): Yeah.
AD: Take a look, see if you can see(--/.)
[18¾ second pause with faint background AD and student talking]
S (faint): It depends.
AD: That has a lot on mentalism. Yeah this one has quite a bit on mentalism.
AS: And--
AD: Uh-hm.
AS (faint): Yeah it does.
CATEGORIZING THE PARAS; READING PARAS ON PHILOSOPHY AND MENTALISM
AD: This 10, 11, yeah. [55½ second pause with faint background student talking] Just open randomly in the middle, Randy. Open randomly in the middle and see a plot.
RC: You want to work on mentalism.
AD: Well, I'm-- any-- anything, just pick one out and we could discuss and you could show us how you work, and how you'd like us to work and this way we could try to follow the model you set up.
[13¾ second pause]
RC: Well it seems there's two ways we could go, we could either try to teach everybody what all the classes mean so that they could pick up on a paragraph in front of them and say what class it is. I think that would be really difficult.
S: Well--
BS (simultaneously): What do you mean what class it is?
S: That's--
S: Category.
RC: Like if you looked [BS simultaneously: Oh what category, yeah.] at a paragraph here and say "Ok, now what class should I put that in?", that's one way to go. Another thing is to pick on one specific class and say this is what it-- that class is about and now bring in everything that you know about that particular class, everything that you've found on that particular class.
RG: But why wouldn't-- well, why don't we just read some of those and then just see where they fit? What if they don't fit in mentalism, (in that) category?
RC: Yeah, yeah.
RG: Let's try to understand first.
RC: Ok.
PB [V13, 21:5.43, RC reading]: "The impact of this discovery that the mind is merely dreaming the world around him and that the senses are merely contributing to this dream, may be quite unsettling for a long while afterwards. Our life may be deprived of purpose, our existence of reality, our will of its power, and our desires of their vitality. For those who have been too attached to earthly things, such a mental state may be useful medicine to cure them of their excessive attachments. But man does not live by medicine alone; he needs bread. (bit of laughter) Therefore, we must put this discovery eventually in its proper place along with all the rest of philosophic truth. If we succeed in doing this we shall recover our balance, we shall live in the world but not be of it, we shall be adequate to our responsibilities but not [be] enslaved by them, we shall be active but not let activity destroy our inward peace."
[9 second pause]
RC: Well there is a category called Mentalism, and the subheads under it are "The Mind and the Five Senses," "The World as Mental Experience," and "Mentalism as Key to the Spiritual World".
AD: Well what category would you put that in?
RC: I'd put it under a different category actually. I would, I mean, in my opinion.
AD (simultaneously): Which category would you use?
RC: Well there's another one called What is Philosophy?
AD: Yeah. Why?
RC: And philosophy seems to be the whole man's reaction to the insights that he gets. And this seems to be talking more in terms of how the whole man responds to an insight.
AD: So then what-- I think what you're saying is that the basic idea underlying this paragraph that you read is not in terms of explaining the doctrine of mentalism, [RC: Right.] alright, but rather where the doctrine of mentalism fits in the overall scheme of philosophy.
RC: Yeah. Like philosophy as--
AD (simultaneously): So then you'd have to go to that category.
RC: Yeah.
AD: And say that belongs in this category and that in such and such a category.
RC: Yeah like the subcategories in that, the first one is the definition. The second is its completeness, the third balance, then the fourth is its fulfillment in the person. And, I would think that this kind of thing of integrating the insights of mentalism would be involved with the fulfillment of the philosophy in the person, would be my first reaction.
AD: I agree with that. Read another one and see, you know, just blindly to the class, any-- any one, you know, see what-- how they would classify it.
PB [V13, 21:5.43, RC reading]: "Those who cannot accept the doctrine of mentalism have sometimes thought up very clever attempts to refute it. My friend, Professor [Ernest] Wood, once said to me that by leaving any object in a dark room and by turning a camera in its direction, fitted with a light [RC reads: torchlight] and operated by a timing switch, so as to switch on the light in the absence of any human being in the room, a photograph of the object would thus be taken; and its existence apart from the thought of any human being would thus be proven. He said that an even simpler refutation of mentalism would be to walk over some rubbish in the dark which you did not know was there and to stumble over it. You could not possibly have thought of its existence, not knowing it was there, and yet it did exist! The answer to these clever criticisms is simple. Professor Wood, in the first case [RC reads: place], had forgotten the person who [had] put the camera and the light [RC reads: torchlight] in the dark room. That person had turned the camera towards the object and must surely have been thinking of the object. This, however, is only an answer to satisfy the requirements of logic; the real answer which philosophy gives [RC adds: us] is that the world-thought is given us by [the] Cosmic Mind--we do not create it. The presence or absence of any particular object within it does not therefore depend upon the individual thinking it, but his awareness of it will depend on this. The object in the dark room, the heap of rubbish in a dark street, exist for any individual's experience only so far [RC reads: only insofar] as they come into his consciousness. Whether or not they exist for him at other times or for other men or for the Cosmic Mind does not and cannot alter this single fact--that his senses could never tell him about them unless his mind tells him about them, first and last."
[short pause]
S (faint): (Better) [one word inaudible] into that one.
RC: Uh-hm.
AD: Alright Dickie, what would you classify that under?
RG: Classify that?
AD (simultaneously): You have one of these sheets there just to take a quick look and--
RG: I don't know. I'd like to understand it before we classify it. (some laughter)
AD: Ok, fine, that-- that's the point, yes. First have to understand it before you can try to categorize it.
RG: I mean we've gone through this arg-- I mean-- the last few months I'd say we've spoken to this topic at nauseam. And I just-- (laughter) and I'm sure everyone here has a very different idea of what he means by Cosmic Mind and individual mind in this context. I'd like to hear everybody's idea on it.
AD: Yeah but-- [S: No.] but Dickie the point here is you don't have to understand this right now. The point-- the point is, you know that the discussion is about mentalism.
RG: Yeah.
AD: And the pros and cons involved. Now what category would you put that-- this under? Would you put it under Philosophy or would you put it under Mentalism, would you put it under Relativity?
RG (simultaneously): No I'd put that un-- I'd put that under Mentalism.
S (simultaneously, faint): Uh-hm.
RG: Oh there's one individual and Cosmic Mind?
TS (faint): [couple words inaudible]
RG/S(?) (faint): Yes and we already have.
S (very faint, possibly part of background): Where'd you want to put this?
AB: But, it could also have to do with like an obstacle. And that would seem to be a very common obstacle.
RG: Oh you mean [couple inaudible student words simultaneous with RG] sever objections to mentalism as an obstacle [AB simultaneously: Yes.] to understand it.
AB: And it would seem [couple word inaudible]
RC (simultaneously): But one of the subheads-- one of the subheads under mentalism is just "The World as Mental Experience," so [RG simultaneously: Yeah, uh-hm.] a discussion of [RG: Yeah I would--] the world as a mental experience of it [RG: Yeah.] is pretty well (covered). Is it or isn't it--
RG: Ok so like in a quote like this in class you don't want to dis-- you don't want to discuss the meaning of it?
AD (simultaneously): Oh no. We can discuss them, the quote.
RG: Oh.
AD: No, it would be to advantage to discuss the quote. But, I-- the point I'm trying to get at is notice the way you went about working. "Well I can't categorize it unless I understand it." Ok, so you go over it. You don't have the answer, you're not clear of the answer but at least now you know in what field it's about, what the discussion is about, so you know what category to put it in, alright. And then if the class wants to continue or let's say try to pull out, you know, what's implicit in it, fine, go right ahead and do it. [short pause] So that-- I mean we could both benefit, on the one hand we would be putting things in their proper category and on the other hand we would be discussing them and--
The-- the only thing here is is-- I-- not the only thing but I think one of the major points here would be if we took-- like tried to anticipate a class and have a certain number ready so that we won't waste time running around. [RG assents] And, that would mean some people (would/will) have to do some work every week and it could be spread around, you know, and rotated around class. And it can become really a pretty significant class in philosophy. Because the range is tremendous. And the thing that begins to happen I think after a while, I don't know, I'll ask Randy but-- or Tim, but after you read enough of this you begin to realize that implicit in all of these writings there's a total philosophical scheme that you start getting acquainted with and that you can almost feel its presence. The same thing like when you read Plotinus. Implicit at the very beginning, he starts off a paragraph. It's almost like he says "Well do you know the whole doctrine? Because if you don't you're not going to follow me no matter where I begin." So you begin to get that kind of a feeling of what you-- what this total philosophy is that they're talking about (now). And you won't be able to systematize it, sure, we know that, yeah. But I think its presence will be available, let's put it that way.
[short pause]
S: To understand these categories do we-- it seems that Randy had mentioned that there should be some explanation on the categories or do we just work with our own sense of what the categories mean?
AD: Oh no, don't work with your idea of what the categories are. I think it would be wiser, like Randy suggested, that we have a brief discussion on the categories. And those who have done some reading and done some classification I think should speak up about that. I think it would be-- be better that way. So, we'd have to get an acquaintance with the categories.
[short pause]
RC: It seems like it would be a lot easier to like pick one out and say ok, that's what we're going to look for this week, and just kind of delineate that particular one rather than trying to--
AD: Very good.
S: Randy could have the person who worked on-- people work on that set, that volume the week before give a-- you know, a brief idea of what they thought it was about. [RC assents] And then the following class work [RC assents] on this idea.
[Audio File 1982 0804a (formerly 1982 0804c) Ends]
[Audio File 1982 0804b Begins]
[few seconds of background student talking]
AD (faint): Well I'm not interested in world (1942). And I don't care what the Nazis did [couple words inaudible] I'm just concerned about when I do this work, alright, [S: Exactly.] what am I going to encounter.
S (faint): Exactly.
S (very faint): We already [one word inaudible] that book.
AD (faint): Emotions and Ethics? You want to take a para from [three words inaudible] and just do the Emotions. Where's that Emotion? Did you find (any paras in What is Philosophy?)
S (faint): Uh-hm.
S (faint): One thing [couple words inaudible] This-- this category allows us here to get involved [one/two words inaudible] ego and the world.
S (very faint): Yeah.
S: (Uh-hm.)
[few seconds of inaudible AD/student talking, followed by mostly inaudible background student talking, followed by pause, 1 minute 48½ seconds]
S (faint): Is it in the library?
RG: Which one? You brought-- the-- the one you want. Whatever number it is, you don't know the one (that come up), what is it?
KD (faint): Well I would have talked [couple/few words inaudible]
RG: Yeah.
S (faint): Yeah, uh-hm.
CS (faint): [one/two words inaudible] the library.
RG: Somebody want to get it?
KD: It's here [few words inaudible]
RG (simultaneously): Oh it's here.
KD (faint): Yeah it's here.
RG: Oh where is it?
KD (faint): It's in the stack of books that Anthony brought.
RG: Oh. Well let's do it.
JfL: Anthony, would you send the book up front please? (laughter)
RG (amidst laughter): Whoa.
S (faint): Right. Why not?
AD (simultaneously, faint): Send the book [three/few words inaudible]
[few seconds of inaudible background AD and student talking, laughter]
KINDS OF PARAS THAT CAN BE INCLUDED UNDER EMOTIONS AND ETHICS; SUBHEADS (SUB-CATEGORIES) AND WHAT GOES IN THEM
RC: Boy. I want to read some from here that-- And they do come from all over and I've brought Volume 4 with me and it's been classed and some of them do belong in 6. So I can read-- these have been organized by the subhead, so maybe I could read some of them by subhead.
S: This is the outline that put category first?
RC: Yes. It's basically Emotions-- the head is Emotions and Ethics. And, the first subhead is "Uplift Character" and the second is "Re-Educate Feelings," the third is "Discipline Emotions," fourth is to "Purify Passions," fifth is "Refinement and Courtesy" and-- and "Avoid Fanaticism". And, with very few exceptions I think most of the things in his personal comments is the personal negativity situation (tend to get) back. I mean, generally an encounter with a genuinely evil person is the kind of thing that I conceive of going under the-- the category called The Negatives which is also parenthesized "Dark Shadow on the World".
S (faint): Ok.
AD: So, why don't we do that, number 6?
RC: Ok.
AD: Did you have everything together there?
RC: Yeah.
AS (simultaneously): Yeah it's all here.
AD: Let's-- let's experiment, let's try. Because we have to evolve a method or some kind of technique or [three/few words inaudible]
RC (simultaneously): Just randomly?
AD: Huh?
RC: Just randomly.
AD: Yeah.
RC: Ok.
S (faint): [couple words inaudible] says it's about everything's that's numbers and [few words inaudible]
RC: Ok, um--
[short pause]
AD (faint): Did you ever read fifty books in one week? Try it, thanks for the experiment. [short pause with faint background student talking, bit of laughter] [couple/three words inaudible] pulling together a whole mountain range, 140 pages worth of (stuff). I took the easy route--I forgot. (laughter) Go ahead.
[short pause]
RC: Well this is an interesting one, this is the sort of thing that I would put under-- address to the issue of refinement and courtesy in 6. Um-- Even though it could go other places.
S (faint): Uh-hm.
PB [V7, 11:2.11, RC reading]: "The ego's interference shows itself in practical life no less than in mystical life. Under its influence, people create a false and favourable mental picture of a situation or [of] a person. They [RC adds: And] then expect one or the other to yield results that by their very nature could not be yielded. This leads to disappointment and unhappiness within themselves. Or the same people create a false but unfavourable picture and then severely criticize another [RC reads: them] for faults which do not exist outside the picture itself. This leads to disharmony and friction with others. From this simple instance we may see that the elimination of egotistic interference--[a goal] that [RC reads: which the] philosophic discipline sets for itself--is not merely a theoretical affair for dreamers or hermits with nothing else to do, but is [RC adds: also] a practical affair promising great practical benefits for everyone [RC reads: anyone] who has to live or [RC reads: and] work in the world. The charge that philosophy is useless can only be made by those who have failed to inform themselves sufficiently about it."
[9½ second pause]
RC: I mean I just don't think of that category as table manners, I mean, I don't consider it very courteous to project onto people things that aren't true about them.
S (very faint): Uh-hm.
S (faint): What page is that?
RC: That's page 60, number 84.
S: What paragraph was that?
RG (simultaneously): What [couple words inaudible] that category, table manner(s)?
RC: No.
S (faint): Where are you finding it?
RC: Well-- (some laughter)
S (amidst laughter): [few words inaudible]
AS: (Another most topic) value of refinement and courtesy?
RC (simultaneously): Yeah, yeah. Like under Emotions and Ethics there's a subhead called "Refinement and Courtesy". But I don't think of it as table manners, in opening the door for your mother or things like that so much as in terms of the inner states that you allow yourself to entertain or direct toward other people.
S (very faint): Ok. Yeah.
S (faint): Well why don't you put it under [one word inaudible]
S (faint): You could put it under the "Discipline Emotions". I don't think it's to have a lack of courtesy, I think it's-- I don't think it's done very consciously.
RG (faint): But we (get the same feeling).
S: Go ahead.
RC: Yeah the main thing isn't so much the subheads and then that the subheads are not meant to be exhaustive or really definitive. Like they show you basically what the category's about.
S: Uh-hm.
AB (simultaneously): So they're not mutually exclusive (in any) ultimate--
RC (simultaneously): Yeah, exactly.
S: What are the possible subheads there, Randy?
S (very faint): [couple/three words inaudible]
RC: Sure.
S (faint): That's right, check in a dictionary?
S (very faint): That's right.
[couple seconds of faint background student talking]
AD: Randy, why don't you pick another example and show him the subhead.
RC (simultaneously): Ok. Again just randomly?
AD (simultaneously): Just the subhead is going to be an amplification of the title.
S: Emotions and Ethics.
RC: Yeah.
S (simultaneously, faint): Uh-hm.
[someone drawing/writing on blackboard as class continues]
[short pause]
AH (faint): Go ahead, may I ask a question? What is it we're doing now, are we trying to decide what heading these quotes belong under? Is that what we're doing?
AD: Yeah, trying to get a feeling for (like) how Randy works really. And those are categories, alright, and if you take one category, let's say like the one he's working with, number 6, Emotions and Ethics. Well that may be too abbreviated to give you an idea, to give you enough of an idea. So by adding these-- these other aspects, it uplifts character or re-educate feelings and all that it gives you like a more expanded version of what he means by Emotions and Ethics. So now when you're reading one of the paragraphs, alright, and you see that it deals with let's say courtesy or avoiding fanaticism then you know it would go under that category. Then the idea would be like let's say you take thirty, forty (little) paragraphs under one category, then let's say you got thirty paragraphs, then let's say you-- you'll only be allowed to-- let's say five or six pages. So you select among the best of them, alright, and this way you can make a compilation. And if you're allowed to have six or seven pages on one category, then you'll end up with two hundred, two hundred fifty page book that way. And it'd be like a cross-selection of all the categories. It'd be like the-- the best from each of the categories or-- or the most let's say, the comp-- the most comprehensive from the most superficial to the profound that's, you know, that kind of a [one/two words inaudible] Yeah, you know. So if we look at that, alright, Andrew, where it says-- where he's got written down Emotion and Ethics, and you see that anything-- that the (rest) is like an amplification, a further expansion of the meaning of Emotions and categories to make it easier for you to be able to pin each paragraph right down and say well this specifically let's say deals with discipline, alright, so let's-- it goes under this category.
[9¼ second pause]
S: Wait, maybe this has been brought out but, the fact is that these categories could-- you could find them in maybe any volume up there. And, I don't know if (you explore) that idea, I don't know if [three words inaudible] But you could be reading these volumes and it might go under this classification even though it-- you know, it may not be labeled as such in the volume.
[short pause]
RC: Yeah especially this category. I mean this one's all over the place. [S simultaneously: Yeah, uh-hm.] Especially this category. These turn up everywhere.
AD: Yeah.
READING PARA ON GOODNESS AND DISCUSSING HOW TO PROPERLY CLASSIFY IT
RC: It's one of the-- [short pause] Well "Discipline Emotions" is probably-- I mean that one is fairly obvious but this seems to get it from two sides.
PB [V5, 6:1.365, RC reading]: "The goodness which philosophy inculcates is an active one, but it is not a sentimental one. It is more than ready to help others but not to help them foolishly. It refuses to let mere emotion have the last word but takes its commands from intuition and subjects its emotions to reason. It makes a clear distinction between the duty of never injuring another person and the necessity which sometimes arises of causing pain to another person. If at times it hurts the feelings of someone's ego, it does so only to help his spiritual growth."
RC: Seems to get it from both sides.
[short pause]
HS: Now is that for a common man to have such a bit of understanding like that? I mean, he's saying that you're supposed to judge what's good for a guy and then give it to him? I don't know if you want to accept that.
AD: Say it again Herbie.
HS: There's an implication there of a capacity to judge the spiritual status of an individual and then, I'm just saying, and feelings need to be hurt. And that's ki-- that's kind of dangerous. But I don't know, go ahead Lou.
LDS: (I don't know) [one/two words inaudible] I seem to pick up there what he-- the need for rational-- a rational kind of [one word inaudible]
HS (simultaneously): Oh to be sure, yeah.
LDS: I mean, not that it's achieved but that you cultivate the rational [one/two words inaudible]
RC: I just read that because I thought he was saying don't be manipulated by your emotions or anybody else's but fall on reason. The intuition--
AH (simultaneously): Like, the question-- I'd like to repeat Herbie's question. Is that advice for everyone in terms of daily practice in their life or is that kind of an ideal that we should work for?
AD/S(?) (very faint): Well Randy--
AH: Could you read it again (just--)
PB [V5, 6:1.365, RC rereads]: "The goodness which philosophy inculcates is an active one, but it is not a sentimental one. It is more than ready to help others but not to help them foolishly. It refuses to let mere emotion have the last word but takes its commands from intuition and subjects its emotions to reason. It makes a clear distinction between the duty of never injuring another person and the necessity which sometimes arises of causing pain to another person. If at times it hurts the feelings of someone's ego, it does so only to help his spiritual growth."
AH: The "its"-- the "its" in that passage refers to the goodness that philosophy inculcates.
RC: Exactly.
AH: Yeah.
[short pause]
RC: It seems that--
AH: It's not about--
AD (simultaneously): What was your question now?
AH: Well is it that-- that passage was clarified-- was clarified for me. And at first reading I thought it was like advice for giving advice. It's an ideal--
AD (simultaneously): Oh no, this isn't a column in the newspaper.
S (very faint): Yeah right, yeah.
S: Ok.
S (faint): I hope not.
S: Yes.
S: Yeah.
HS: Yeah but in daily life--
AD: This is very specific advice for students of philosophy.
S (faint): Yeah.
RC: Yeah. In fact some of the things in this book, I don't know that they would pick them up but, through here he talks a lot about how there have been excellent moralists that have said everything that needs to be said several times very clearly. That how absurd that anybody should repeat them again. Nonetheless, he's going to repeat them. But he said that he-- his references through here, these are things that I wouldn't publish because I just don't want the kind of reaction that I get from hav-- having the wrong people hear them. These are things that come down on people when they get involved in the Quest because they become subject to a whole different standard, and--
[13½ second pause]
AH: Well the question I had Anthony is that-- if that passage is interpreted it's a-- in regards to a personal situation, it's a kind of a big responsibility to decide whether or not we're going to hurt other people's feelings based on the spiritual--
S (very faint): [one/two words inaudible]
S (faint): [couple/three words inaudible]
AB: But there's another way to interpret it which is not that we are capable of judging what someone else needs and then maybe even letting them be hurt but that if we or someone else is hurt not to necessarily assume that that's bad but to try and exercise the reason, understanding that sometimes getting hurt is necessary part of our growth.
LR: But there's also another point in there which is to the extent that philosophy takes over your life or that you allow that philosophic viewpoint to enter you, then to that extent you will know how to act in accordance with life. [student assents] And I thought that-- that's what it-- it's talking about the act-- the active force of philosophy. And to the extent that you receive that active force, that's one of the-- the actions that occur.
TS: And that to distinguish that active force from the-- from-- seems to have emotional [student assents, faint] deri-- compulsion (neither/either) negative or positive.
TS/S(?) (faint): And [one word inaudible] positive.
AD: So you have no choice, you have to act in the world one way or another. I mean, you can't get away from that. So why not, you know, try to have it in the back of your mind the way a philosophic student would act and to what-- to what necessary-- you know, what's necessary in relationship with others (is what he has to explain). I don't think there's any reference here to sit on-- sitting on judgment on anyone. I don't think that's in here.
RC: No probably the category's Ethics and you know the whole question of ethics is then how do you-- how do you objectify the good, I mean-- Seems we have to say a few things about what kind of goodness he's talking about.
LR: It also goes under the definition of what is philosophy too.
HS(?): I didn't hear you.
LR: I'm not-- I'm not saying it should be changed but I'm not familiar with the categories either. But I-- most people think of philosophy in a very [one/two words inaudible] that it is a science or dealing with concepts, abstract concepts. And I think (one of/what are) the purposes elaborating (that) or defining philosophy is to show how comprehensive and actual this-- it becomes, right, and that-- and this is a statement of that as well.
[short pause]
NH: That's why it seems that if you put it in a category of Emotions and Ethics that it would be maybe appropriate under "Uplifting Character" because it's by the uplifting character there's a (lapsing) of the egoity judgment of-- of situation(s).
[9 second pause]
AD: Well it seems that most of you then would put it under category 6. Right? Under that sixth category because in the category What is Philosophy?, the definition of philosophy, completeness, balance, fulfillment in man, ok.
RG(?): Well, that's coming from outside.
[students assent, very faint]
TS: Yeah, it seems like the essential point of-- is dealing with the emotions.
S (faint whisper): Yeah.
[short pause]
LD: But wouldn't it also be a balanced approach to the emotions?
TS: Well, [S simultaneously, faint: Yeah (three/few words inaudible)] that's why-- that's why I'd be looking-- you know, I think that it would be a balanced approach to the body, a balanced approached to the intellect.
LD: Yes so what I'm saying is couldn't that come up under like "Balance" as under What is Philosophy? And philosophy incorporates this balanced view.
S (faint): Yeah.
TS: But you see I think-- at least in the way I've tried to read them is that there's a-- sort of like a seed-point, there's a general-- an essential plot seems to be trying to be approached in-- in each para or (paragraph). And the point of view is going to be that of a philosopher who's going to be approaching those things, you know, but the-- there's like a main-- most of the time there seems to be a main plot, and to try to form that main plot, and the way in which it's associated with philosophy or the Quest or whatever, there's going to be links and connections. But to try, you know-- I think--
LD: Oh yeah I totally agree with you, that's just a question what was being thought.
TS (simultaneously): So when he-- when he was writing on balance, he'll write directly on balance, he'll say you need a balance in--
AD (simultaneously): So the point-- point Tim is to get the core idea and the secondary idea should-- should not be ju-- used in judging what category.
S: Yeah.
GET TO THE CORE IDEA TO JUDGE THE CATEGORY IN WHICH TO PLACE A PARA
AD: Get the core idea to judge the category.
RC: Yeah like discipline doesn't mean crush, there's a number of places where-- Like this is an example I think of what is meant by disciplining. Uh--
PB [V5, 6:2.128 & Persp., Ch. 6 #38, RC reading a part of]: "If he does not shrink from his own suffering, it is [RC reads: it's] hardly likely that the adept will shrink from the sufferings of others. Consequently it is hardly likely that the emotional sympathy which arises in the ordinary man's heart at the sight of suffering will arise in precisely the same way in the adept's heart. He does not really regard himself as apart from them. In some curious way, both they and he are part of one and the same life. If he does not pity himself for his own sufferings in the usual egoistic [RC reads: egotistic] and emotional way, [RC adds: then] how can he bring himself to pity the sufferings of others in the same kind of way? This does not mean that he will become coldly indifferent towards them. On the contrary, the feeling of identification with their inmost being would alone prevent that utterly; but it means that the pity which arises within him takes a different form, a form which is far nobler and truer because emotional agitation and egotistic reaction are absent from it. He feels with and for the sufferings of others, but he never allows himself to be lost in [RC reads: within] them; and just as he is never lost in fear or anxiety about his own sufferings, so he cannot become [RC reads: be] lost in those emotions or the sufferings of others. The [RC reads: This] calmness with which he approaches his own [sufferings] cannot be [RC reads: is not] given up because he is approaching other [RC reads: another's] [people's sufferings]. He has bought that calmness at a heavy price--[RC adds: and] it is too precious to be thrown away for anything. And because the pity which he feels in his heart is not mixed up with emotional excitement or personal fear, his mind is not obscured by these [RC reads: those] excrescences, and [RC adds: he] is able to see what needs to be done to relieve the suffering ones [RC reads: one] far better than an obscured mind could see [RC reads: do so]. He does not make a show of his pity [RC reads: emotion], but his help is far more effectual than the help of those who do."
S (faint): What page is that on?
S: Good.
RC: That's 72.
S: [couple words inaudible]
S (faint): Uh-hm.
S (faint): Well, but--
S (faint): (What page?)
S (faint): But--
S (very faint, possibly part of background): Someone will be there.
PB [V5, 6:2.128 & Persp., Ch. 6 #38, RC reading a part of]: "Just as the word compassion is so often mistaken for a foolish and weak sentimentality, so the words egolessness, unselfishness, and unself-centeredness are equally mistaken for what they are not. They are so often thought to mean nonseparateness [RC reads: separateness] from other individuals or the surrender of personal rights to other individuals or the setting aside of duty to ourself for the sake of serving [RC adds: some] other individuals. This is often wrong. The philosophical meaning of egoism is that attitude of separateness not from another individual on the same imperfect level as ourself but from the one universal life-power which is behind all individuals [RC adds: and] on a deeper level than them all. We are separated from that infinite [RC reads: our finite] mind when we allow the [RC reads: this] personal ego to rule us, [RC adds: and] when we allow the personal self to prevent the one universal self [from] entering our [RC reads: the] field of awareness."
S: Randy?
S: But wouldn't that fit in the ego--
RC: Oh this is actually a continuation of the same passage.
S: Oh.
AB: But I had a question about the first part you read [three/few words inaudible] just to get an idea of how you work in assigning these. The first section you just read was about how a Sage experiences emotions in a way that is different from the way we-- we experience emotions or compassion.
RC: Yeah.
AB: Now you could put that under Saints and Sages which is describing the state of relationship of a holy person or you could put that under Emotions because it's describing the way in which we should strive to work with our emotions.
RC: Yeah. Like I would-- the reason I would put it under "Discipline Emotion" is to get me into the work. And you'll see when you go through there are a lot of passages where he does exactly this sort of thing where he's saying that it doesn't mean to prevent them utterly, it doesn't mean to crush them out. It simply means not to have the reason and will be rendered ineffectual in the situation because you get dislocated by them.
AB: But even though it's describing the way a Sage experiences, it would be more appropriate to put it under "Discipline Emotions" because it's describing what exactly that means [RC: Yeah.] to have disciplined emotions.
RC: Yeah. Like basically the thing about Saint and Sages, another category and a head for that one is "World-Mind in Individual Mind". And what he's really addressing himself there to most of the time is what it means to say that the World-Mind is operating, you know, in an individual mind without obscuration from the personal emotional body-based ego personality. He's been able to still that, let himself be a vehicle for it, and examples of things that have been done by specific Saints and Sages.
AH: Randy I wanted to ask a question about this passage the same way I did before like from the perspective of [couple words inaudible] In terms of categorizing these things, are we-- are we going to decide what the point of view is? Like the question that Alan just brought up, he's describing the experience of the Sage. Now are you going to put that under the category of Emotion insofar as indicative-- that students would try to imitate the experience of the Sage? Or you put it under the category of [one word inaudible] because it can contrast that with our experience and better-- better understand how our-- how we are conditioned? I don't understand the logic of taking that passage and (screening) the experience of an adept and putting it under Emotions. I don't understand the connection(s).
AD: Well again, again Andrew, what is the core idea that is being discussed?
AH: In that passage?
AD: Yeah, in any-- in that whole thing, in that whole paragraph, what is the core of the idea?
AH: Well I thought it's [AD: Uh--] a description of--
AD: Randy, would you mind-- we have to experiment, would you have Vic read it out loud? (bit of laughter)
VM: Sounds different when I read it.
AD: Now--
VM (simultaneously, faint): Sounds [one word inaudible] Right here, "Consequently…"?
AS: Just louder.
VM: "If he does not shrink…"?
S (very faint): Uh-hm.
S (faint): (Well/Vic), you could pick up on that other (today).
VM (simultaneously): Ok.
PB [V5, 6:2.128 & Persp., Ch. 6 #38, VM reading a part of]: "If he does not shrink from his own suffering, it is hardly likely that the adept will shrink from the sufferings of others. Consequently it is hardly likely that the emotional sympathy which arises in the ordinary man's heart at the sight of suffering will arise in precisely the same way in the adept's heart. He does not really regard himself as apart from them. In some curious way, both they and he are part of one and the same life. If he does not pity himself for his own sufferings in the usual egoistic and emotional way, how can he bring himself to pity the sufferings of others in the same kind of way? This does not mean that he will become coldly indifferent towards them. On the contrary, the feeling of identification with their inmost being would alone prevent that utterly; but it means that the pity which arises within him takes a different form, a form which is far nobler and truer because emotional agitation and egotistic reaction are absent from it. He feels with and for the sufferings of others, but he never allows himself to be lost in them; and just as he is never lost in fear or anxiety about his own sufferings, so he cannot become lost in those emotions or the [VM reads: those] sufferings of others. The calmness with which he approaches his own sufferings cannot be given up because he is approaching other people's sufferings. He has bought that [RC reads: the] calmness at a heavy price--it is too precious to be thrown away for anything. And because the pity which he feels in his heart is not mixed up with emotional excitement or personal fear, his mind is not obscured by these excrescences, and [VM adds: he] is able to see what needs to be done to relieve the suffering ones far better than an obscured mind could see. He does not make a show of his pity, but his help is far more effectual than the help of those who do.
"The altruistic ideal is set up for aspirants as a practical means of using the will to curb egoism and crush its pettiness. But these things are to be done to train the aspirant in surrendering his personal self to his higher self, not in making him subservient to other human wills. The primacy of purpose is to be given to spiritual self-realization, not to social service. This above all others is the goal to be kept close to his heart, not meddling in the affairs of others. Only after he has attended adequately--and to some extent successfully--to the problem of himself can he have the right to look out for or intrude into other people's problems.
"This does not mean, however, [that] he is to become narrowly self-centered or entirely selfish. On the contrary, the wish to confer happiness and the willingness to seek the welfare of mankind should be made the subject of solemn dedication at every crucial stage, every inspired hour, of his quest. But prudence and wisdom bid him wait for a more active altruistic effort until he has lifted himself to a higher level, found his own inner strength, knowledge, and peace and learnt to stand unshaken by the storms, passions, desires, and greeds of ordinary life.
"Hence it is better for the beginner to keep to himself any pretensions to altruism, remaining silent and inactive about them. The dedication may be made, but it should be made in the secrecy of the inmost heart. Better than talk about it or premature activity for it, is the turning of attention to the work of purifying himself, his feelings, motives, mind, and deeds.
"Just as the word compassion is so often mistaken for a foolish and weak sentimentality, so the words egolessness, unselfishness, and unself-centeredness are equally mistaken for what they are not. They are so often thought to mean nonseparateness from other individuals or the surrender of personal rights to other individuals or the setting aside of duty to ourself [VM reads: ourselves] for the sake of serving other individuals. This is often wrong. The philosophical meaning of egoism is that attitude of separateness not from another individual on the same imperfect level as ourself [VM reads: ourselves] but from the one universal life-power which is behind all individuals [VM adds: and] on a deeper level than them all. We are separated from that infinite mind when we allow the personal ego to rule us, when we allow the personal self to prevent the one universal self [from] entering our field of awareness. The sin lies in separating ourselves in consciousness from this deeper power and deeper being which is at the very root of all selves."
AD: Andrew, what will be the core idea there?
AH: That--
AD: What is it really concerned about?
AH: In my opinion?
AD: Yeah.
VM: What else?
S (faint): Yeah Andrew.
AH: Elaborate distinction between compassion and sympathy based on the experience of an adept.
[short pause]
AD: What category would you put it under? Assuming that you had this in front of you, ok.
AH: Certainly wouldn't put it under the category of Emotions.
AD: I'm sorry? Look at-- look at number 6. See the subheading(s).
[11 second pause]
AH: Talking the re-education of feelings.
S: Yeah.
AD: You'd put it under 6 then, wouldn't you?
S (very faint): Yeah.
AH: Well if that's the choice I had. (bit of laughter)
AD: Exactly. (laughter)
RC: This is an interesting one, it's actually really easy one to class because it stayed the same.
AD: I'm sorry?
RC: This is actually a fairly easy one to class because [AS simultaneously, faint: Yeah, it's the old one.] it stayed the same. It used to be 6 and it's still 6. 6 is 6 and it didn't change.
AH: Actually--
RC: Most of the other classes did.
AD: Yeah but, Randy the-- the thing we're trying to do now is drive this wedge in, right? You got to-- you've got to get to the core idea and basically here he's concerned with the purification of feeling.
S: Uh-hm.
RC: That's right.
AD: I mean, everything else is just a side issue, the adept's way of the inter-- the interior life of the adept is really a side issue.
S: Yeah.
AS: In fact there's a [one/two words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Just go over it in your mind a little bit and you can see, that's what he's driving home. Why? The most obvious thing is he told you, he says that's [couple inaudible RC words simultaneous with AD] what separates you from the Universal Mind.
VM: Right.
AD: This emotionality, alright, which makes you think that you're something else than the Universal Mind. And that attachment, that feeling has to be purified in order for you to get detached from that so that you can get close to the Infinite Mind.
AH: Actually that particular passage cleared up for me on the second reading. But I thought that Vic read something that Randy didn't read.
S (faint): Me too.
VM: I-- I think I did. [S simultaneously: He did.] Because you see, the thing has-- has got inserts and stuff like that and, if you just read it right through you'd get a different reading and I think Randy put the inserts in or I'm not sure but it was--
AD (simultaneously): But we'll have to have someone who can speak loud, you know, in a public voice [couple words inaudible]
VM (simultaneously): No, no. It's not just that, it's--
AH: Well the point, the point I'm making is that part of what you read that Randy didn't read [VM simultaneously: Right, right, right.] (made me understand it) a little better.
VM (simultaneously): It gi-- it gives you a better-- yes. Randy was, you know, not reading the whole thing [student assents] because it is pretty long.
AS: But (is where) he talk-- This is very [VM: Yeah.] homogenous, the whole thing fits beautifully.
VM (simultaneously): No it is, yeah.
AS: It also-- I mean the other thing I think Randy [couple words inaudible]
AH (simultaneously): So that we should edit parts out as we read it?
AD: No, no.
VM (simultaneously): No.
[few students at once, few words inaudible]
RE-EDUCATING FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS
AS: I was going to say, it also seems that this-- this particular one, one other way of working is you can see the continuity of this with the previous one that we read, they really do have a similar feeling to them.
RC (simultaneously): Well that was why I read it was because of the discussion of this--
AS (simultaneously): Yeah. I mean it seems like you're saying is after you read a few of them you really do get a kind of feeling of how they all-- the bunch of them really do have a similar type of aim and core meaning. And that [couple words inaudible] too that you wouldn't necessarily get just from reading the topic in here. But once you see a kind of continuity of meaning--
RC (simultaneously): Well what Tim does is really good because as he goes along he keeps track of what he's doing. So he puts down like a little index as he goes. And so if any time he gets to one and he doesn't know if it fits with something he did before he goes back and he brings all the ones that he put in that class before, it fits or it doesn't fit, so--
NH: Randy? Could you clarify your opinion on the difference between b and c up there, "Re-educating Feelings" and "Disciplining Emotions"? Because those two words keep floating around like in that last passage. [RC: Yeah.] Both feelings and emotions were involved in the discussion. I'm not clear on the difference.
RC: The emotions I thought--
NH: Do you have a (feeling)?
RC (simultaneously): Well I think (what/when) you have as an example in this quote is a man operating with feeling, but not being manipulated by emotion. [9¼ second pause] The relatedness that he feels with the other person or whatever he's relating to is a relatedness that comes through the feeling function.
NH: So the feelings might be more projected out on others whereas the emotions are more a personal (playing).
RC: I think the emotions are-- are mostly like the reaction of the body-based personality. Sort of the feeling situations that he has to deal with and the ego refuses to or decides to make it look like something else or-- in one way or another layer a certain reaction from the vasanas on top of what's being presented.
[short pause]
BS: Randy don't-- doesn't re-education imply some sort of-- giving some sort of direction to the feeling as opposed to what could [one/two words inaudible] as opposed to having to be barraged by the emotions?
RC: Yeah well that's--
BS: Whereas feelings seem to-- to relate. It's got a [RC assents] certain relationship. [student assents, faint] Now I'm not sure myself what re-education means but if it does mean to be able to direct it somewhat, either you could accept the relationship as-- of the feeling, or you could re-educate it or redirect it, I'm not clear myself.
AD: I think [couple words inaudible] Bert, get up in the morning feeling like a bear but you're going to re-educate your feelings and you're going to say "Good morning dear wife." (bit of laughter) That's re-educating your feelings, alright.
BS: How come? (laughter)
S: Yeah.
S: But--
BS: That's what I really (wanted to know). (bit of laughter)
AD: You'll re-educate them all the time, you listen to (good music) that are enjoyable and look at art, aesthetic experiences. Or when you have unpleasant memories that want to dominate you, you throw them out (and then--) that's-- I mean they're not parked into compartments. You're not going to do one without the other, they're-- they're all mixed up.
RC: You know that section he's got in the Quest on cultivation of the finer feelings. You remember that. [short pause] Yeah you remember the section he has in the Quest on the cultivation of the finer feelings?
BS (faint): Yeah.
RC: That's the way I understand it.
MB: But, see I-- I think-- but what Bert said makes sense to me also, that this quote doesn't really talk too much about cultivating the finer feelings, it talks more about purifying those emotions of the-- the sympathy that we normally associate [RC assents] with (the passions/compassion).
RC: Yeah I read it as an example of disciplining. That was where I was putting the emphasis was on disciplining the emotions.
MB: On disciplining rather than on [one/two words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): But that was-- that was her question, right? She wanted to know the difference between re-educating feelings and disciplining emotion. That wasn't about the quote. You were talking about the distinction between those two.
S: Yeah and I think-- I couldn't do--
AD: They're not-- they're not really that distinct.
S (faint): I couldn't-- finer feelings that we're talking about is a different kind of feeling, (that) one is a more introverted [few words inaudible]
AD: So how do you discipline the feelings-- I mean the emotions, basically you have to take direction, you have to direct the feeling. And that means you have to bring in all your philosophic acumen [couple words inaudible] You ought to direct it somewhere, how? Well I should be-- I should-- I shouldn't say-- Let me put it this way, there's going to be more of a conscious understanding of what's going on and you're going to interfere with (you/it). You're actually going to get involved in your own conscious evolution. And that means you have to bring into play what you understand.
MB: Can-- could I make one other comment on this (here/quote)? There's something that comes out of this quote which to me exemplifies something that has come across a lot when we read the quotations which is that PB would bring out one side of a point sometimes and another side of a point yet at other times. Like when he talks about meditation at the beginning stages, sometimes he'll say you need to pick the same time each day. And (at/then) other times he'll say you need to be spontaneous and meditate when you're feeling to meditate [one word inaudible] You know, so he'll bring up different aspects of the question, that's just one example. And this quotation seems to emphasize a certain turning inwards rather than expressing the feelings outwardly until a certain stage is reached but I think it possibly applies to a certain stage. I mean I think many of his quotes apply to different stages and it may not be stated explicitly in-- in the (introduction).
AD (simultaneously): But it's implied elsewhere. [MB: It--] If he tells you meditate every day, alright, and if he tells you another time meditate spontaneously, and you can rest assured you're not going to meditate spontaneously, forget it. You're a beginner. You got to do it every day. After five years you might want to do it spontaneously. If you've read his work you'll see that very clearly.
S (faint): Uh-hm.
MB: Well, but--
AD (simultaneously): Unless you're the exception.
MB: You see what strike-- what strikes me about this quote too is that it-- you know, it isn't explicit what stage he's talking about but he is suggesting that that--
AD (simultaneously): What stage he's talking about, in this quote!? Everyone is at this stage!
VM: Quite explicit quote too.
MB (simultaneously): Ok he says--
AD: The stage of not being a Sage! (laughter) What--
MB: Now-- but there are many stages in not being a Sage and when he-- when he talks about-- he talks about when one becomes a Sage then when one has the reunion with-- (the reunion) with (one's "I"), then one will have the correct sort of feelings or the correct sort of understanding that will enable you to help others, whereas at a lower stage you will not have (it/this). And the implication is or actually what the stage is, and it says making the attempt one should make the attempt to turn inwards.
AD: Oh no, no, then you're-- then you're not going to do anything. I want you to say to your husband in the morning a very nice cheery "Good morning dear." (bit of laughter) I don't want you to think inwardly "I'm going to say it but I won't do it, I'm just going to--" (laughter)
MB (amidst laughter, faint): Well that's what I'm asking, a few quotes say that. No I-- and I don't think it does, I don't think that's what he's asking in (that).
AD (simultaneously): I think it does, and I think it says very clearly you have to do it, you've got to-- you've got to get in there and direct your feeling or you'll never get through.
S (faint): (Uh-hm/Ok).
S (faint): (What's included?)
MB: What?
HE: He's talking about not meddling there and I think that's when he starts talking about altruism there and saying don't think that you know what's good for somebody else until you really know yourself and-- I'm just saying, 'cause the whole thing is about relationships between your emotions and how you deal with other people, that's why it's Emotions AND Ethics, I think it's-- it's both those things and it's that-- how you have to, you know, really know about yourself before you can have anything to say about what another person might need.
MB: Ok so--
AD: But in the meantime when you're-- as you don't know yourself what do you do?
MB: Well that's what the quote (is about).
S (simultaneously): Growl at everybody.
HE: No. No I'm not talk-- no I-- no I'm saying you have to control. I'm not [one words inaudible] I'm really getting (triggered). (bit of laughter) Um--
AH: Well in the quote he suggested that what you do is you-- you study philosophy.
MB: Yeah that's what I thought he said there.
AH (simultaneously): You don't want to do [one/two words inaudible]
MB: That's what bothers me about this selection that-- that's what I got-- one of the things I got from this is that there are certain implications, in the meantime don't do that but [one word inaudible] inwards until you find that understanding.
S: It's a constant contemplation of your motives and re-educating. [S: (Gotcha.)] You know, you have to do-- you have to first see what's there and then do something about it, I don't think there's any point where you're passive and, well [one/two words inaudible]
AH (simultaneously): Yes the quote does say there's (any) point where you shouldn't move past.
S: Well I think--
S: That refers to--
S (simultaneously): But not for your-- towards itself.
S: That's not passive.
S (faint): No, not to meddle in other people's business.
S (simultaneously): Yeah but that's-- You have to take control and know, you know, who you are before you can do anything but that doesn't mean that you don't-- that you're not constantly trying to strive towards that once you make that inward vow. I mean once you make that inward vow, you have to constantly live accordingly, try to live accordingly.
AH: I thought the quote suggested at some-- at some-- (some times/sometimes).
S (faint): [couple words inaudible]
AD: You could see that the ultimate moral purpose of the universe is to teach us or discipline us. It might even be the ultimate purpose of the universe for all I know. [MB simultaneously, faint: I wouldn't be (surprised).] But here, here the basic point is what, Myra? What was the basic point in this thing if you had to classify it and you had to put it under the category, what would you put it under?
MB: I'm-- I'm not familiar enough with the categories. My-- I mean I would obviously like to ask something about that quote so--
AD: No that's alright. The--
[Audio File 1982 0804b Ends]
[Audio File 1982 0804c (formerly 1982 0804a) Begins]
AD: Huh?
S: [one word inaudible]
RC (simultaneously): Audacity, desire [S simultaneously: Desire.] to belong to itself. Be its own boss.
AD: Yeah. Yeah not many people are going to read Plotinus but I think there's a chance that many people will read PB. [couple/three inaudible student words simultaneous with AD] As a fact they won't even reprint Plotinus. Go ahead.
BS: Just as a help to me and maybe to some others, how would the category-- why wouldn't you put it for instance in category-subject 1, "Uplift Character," (I--)
AD: Well, again, Bert, it can be there. The point that we-- we made before was, emotion and ethics, uplifts-- uplifting of character, re-educating the feelings, discipline of the emotions, all this is one category. Don't think that you're going to make a chap-- a chapter 1, Emotions and Ethics, chapter 2 Uplift Character, chapter 3-- This is all one subject. But there's very-- there's buried aspects to that one subject. Think of it as a lot of synonyms for emotions and ethics.
S: Right.
BS: Well I think understood that but we had sub-classed this under "Re-Educate Feelings".
AD: Well I think you-- I think you'd have a couple of the subtopics (really) in that paragraph.
BS: Ok.
RG: For sure.
AD: Look, the important thing is to get to the core of the idea. That's number one, that's good for training, just-- just for self-discipline that's important. And don't be-- you know, don't be misled by all the side issues, get to the main issue and then, alright, see if you can figure out why it should go into this category and then discussion about it could take place. And I think it might be wise for a referee to say "That's enough discussion. On to the next point."
RG: Right, good idea. (bit of laughter)
S (faint): Yeah Richard.
AS (faint): Richard can--
RG: On to the next one. Read another one before-- (RG laughs, bit of laughter)
AD: Except for a philosophic subjects.
RG: Oh.
AD: Then they'll probably take longer. You're going to have to, again, go by, you know, your-- your intuition, I mean-- You can't say two minutes for every question, (right)?
RC/S(?) (faint): Yeah let's move along.
AD: Alright, so as a-- most of you have an idea of what we want to do and maybe as we go along some kind of very precise organization will crystallize out and we'll proceed faster as we go. But since the (Nous) isn't present and people are sweating as much as I am why don't we just call it quits now. And, just make arrangements for how we're going to do the next meeting, ok?
AS: Alright.
AD: By the way, next Wednesday we don't meet, right?
RG: Well, [S: Oh right.] is the Lama [Note: Serkong Rinpoche.] going to be here next week though?
AD (simultaneously): I think so, I forgot. What's the date next Wednesday?
RC: (You'll/Yeah) work from there.
S (faint): 10th.
S (faint): 11th.
S (simultaneously): 10th.
AS: 11th.
S: The 11th.
VM: 11th, yeah.
S: Wednesday?
S: But do you (know that)?
VM (simultaneously): What day does he come?
AS: August (11th).
VM (simultaneously, faint): Is he coming (out/up) here?
S: John, do you know?
JL: Yeah, next Wednesday, but whether he'll be tired from traveling or not is the only question.
VM: It-- it being fairly late in the day John, is that--
JL: I-- we-- we haven't had any classes.
VM: But even if you meet him at 8 o'clock in the morning, how long does it take to drive there, from here to there?
JL (simultaneously): Well, hardly more than four hours.
RG: Yeah, I mean, so--
VM (simultaneously): I see, so-- I mean in principle, although it seems unlikely, he could be here at noon but--
JL: Yeah, well, depends on where you want to go.
AD: I have [S simultaneously: (Could) you go?] no idea, it's really up to him John, I want to do a complete (thing/theme).
JL: But he has--
[tape break]
PB ON HIS OWN WRITINGS
VM: --found it extremely interesting in light of what we're attempting to do here. This is from volume 21. I'm reading them in a particular order if you mind but-- It's (on) page 9, number 5, he says--
PB [unpublished, VM reading]: "I waited for a direct command from within to do this work but it did not come. I concluded that someone else should put his hand to it. The duty was not mine."
VM: And in light of what we were just saying before, this is interesting here.
PB [V8, 12:5.260, VM reading]: "The writing I have done is in fragmentary form; there is no whole completed record of what philosophy means to me."
VM: Uh, couple more. Ok, 325.
PB [V8, 12:5.333, VM reading]: "What does it matter if the words I write are published now or after my death? Why must I hurry them into print and thus blindly imitate other contemporary auth-- every…"
RC (simultaneously): Don't read it to him. (laughter)
VM: No I don't want to read it to Anthony, you-- don't take it personally Anthony.
RG: Can't-- you can't fake that (music).
AD: If you notice I waited a year.
VM: No Randy meant [RG simultaneously: Meant about (our book).] I shouldn't read this about you in reference to your book.
RG: Right.
VM: But, [S: Oh.] I think (laughter) you're mature enough to take it.
RG (simultaneously): There's no-- no way-- (laughter)
S (amidst laughter): Ah Vic.
RG: No way he could think it applies to him.
PB [V8, 12:5.333, VM rereads]: "What does it matter if the words I write are published now or after my death? Why must I hurry them into print and thus blindly imitate every other contemporary author, whose ego is irritated by the criticism which follows the appearance [VM reads: appearances] of his work, or inflated by the praise?" (bit of laughter)
VM: The last one I have I think is really quite interesting.
[short pause, flipping of pages]
PB [V8, 12:5.342, VM reading]: "I have to laugh sometimes at this situation: for many years now I have been putting down these ideas of mine with a view to non-publication. Time enough to print and publish them after P.B.'s passing away. The joke, which at decent intervals provokes this laughter, is that it won't be long before I shall return again and then, since I am attracted to such reading material anyway, (laughter) and will certainly be more than attracted [to]--in fact [will be] swept off my feet (laughter) and become an ardent follower, advocate, and propagandist of--the posthumous P.B. (laughter) [VM: Sorry."…posthumous P.B.] books, holding so much that I will agree heartily with--yes, the joke is that I shall be my own reader (laughter) for certain even if no one else will care for them. (laughter) I shall enjoy the printing format and the cloth binding just as much as P.B. himself might."
VM: So you're doing this for him in a very real way. (bit of laughter)
AD: We'll take that one.
VM: You want this one?
AD (faint): We'll take that one. (AD laughing, bit of laughter)
VM: Put it-- put it in the book cover [one/two words inaudible]
RG (simultaneously): Yeah I--
AD (simultaneously): (You) just have to be a little patient next couple weeks but, you'll see, my experience has been you work, the thing gets defined, you sit on your butt and you say well let's see what I should do, you'll never do it. Do it first and then you find out what it is you're doing. (bit of laughter)
BS: Do it.
VM (simultaneously): Anything else you want to say Bert?
BS: Do it. (RG laughs)
[Audio File 1982 0804c (formerly 1982 0804a) Ends]
1982 08/04 V14.1a: CLASS: PB Paras; Categorizing Paras. Copyright 2023 Wisdom's Goldenrod p. ii