DIAGRAM AND CHARTS FOR 1982 1122
Class
Monday, November 22nd, 1982
Verbatim, unedited transcriptCLASS at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY
with Anthony Damiani (AD)
November 22, 1982
ASTROLOGY; THEORY
TOPIC: Astrology
SUBJECT: Theory
SUBSUBJECTS: Aspects, Chaldeans and trans-Saturnians (natal, transiting, progressed), Einstein, Emerson, Beethoven, Napoleon, and others
CONTENTS:
Natal Chaldeans = ego structure/animate; transiting Chaldeans = light of Nature, modifications of ego structure; progressed Chaldeans = ego structure at moment you look at it
Natal trans-Saturnians = knowing, willing, feeling; Nous ideas being incorporated into ego structure
Charts of great men show trans-Saturnian idea coming into ego which expresses itself in the world and alters civilization
Progressed trans-Saturnians: the way Nous ideas have become a permanent part of ego structure
Transiting trans-Saturnians to natal Chaldeans: Nous ideas modifying ego structure; higher intellection transmitted to sensible man
If functioning at rational level, trans-Saturnians available even if not aspecting natal chart
Natal aspect between Chaldean and trans-Saturnian gets worked out through transit of the trans-Saturnian through the houses; certain amount of circumstances necessary for revelation to take place; Einstein example
Natal Chaldean to natal Chaldean: ego and its image-activity
Natal Chaldean to transiting Chaldean: modification of ego structure by natural forces
Natal Chaldean to progressed Chaldean: growth of ego through that modification
Transiting Chaldean to transiting Chaldean: general state of Nature (e.g. earthquakes, floods)
Progressed Chaldean to transiting Chaldean: understanding of natural laws with a more mature ego than the one you came in with
Progressed Chaldean to progressed Chaldean: meaning confronting itself; have to understand something about yourself
Why light of Nature is the rational soul; overcome Nature by working with it, not against it
Discussion of trans-Saturnian relationships in themselves and as embodied in natal chart
Einstein and the 1906 Uranus-Neptune opposition; crisis in scientific knowledge of that period
Grand trine between trans-Saturnians: Napoleon, Beethoven, certain Sages; equal distribution of functions
Necessity of strong Chaldean structure to be able to work with and understand trans-Saturnians
Ego as the battlefield within which higher willing, feeling, knowing take place
Natal trans-Saturnian to natal trans-Saturnian: soul's intellection in this incarnation
Trans-Saturnian grand trine as Gurukula; the individual has been given a certain assignment, is destined for something
Reading Napoleon's trans-Saturnian Sabian symbols to see if they indicate the ideas of liberty, equality, fraternity
Napoleon had an initiation inside Great Pyramid
Review of various charts showing dominant triangular patterns: Ramakrishna, Sai Baba, Santayana, Vivekananda, Gandhi, Emerson, Elbert Hubbard, Jung, Napoleon
Grand trine as symbol of the Self
Grand sextile: King David, Vivekananda, Richard Nowogrodzki
TS continues with detailed breakdown of planetary relationships
Question of reading progressions backwards; discussion of alternative ways to read/interpret progressions
Jones' seven stages of planetary progression; Mercury's progressed motion patterns; all seven necessary for complete evolution of understanding
BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:
Plotinus, The Enneads (MacKenna translation, 4th ed.)
K.C. Bhattacharyya, Studies in Philosophy, Volume 2, "The Concept of the Absolute and Its Alternative Forms"
Vyasa, Bhagavad Gita
Marc Edmund Jones, The Astrology of Concepts
Marc Edmund Jones, The Sabian Symbols in Astrology
PLOTINUS QUOTES READ OR REFERENCED: I.1.9, I.6.8, IV.3.30, V.3.3
SABIAN SYMBOLS: Taurus 12, Virgo 2, 9, Capricorn 14, Pisces 9
DIAGRAM and CHARTS appended to this transcript:
FIGURE AD Supp 12-digital. Table of Aspects: Chaldeans, trans-Saturnians – natal, transiting, progressed.
FIGURE 1982 1122-2. Einstein Natal Chart.
FIGURE 1982 1122-3. Ralph Waldo Emerson Natal Chart.
FIGURE 1982 1122-4. Napoleon Natal Chart (astro.com).
FIGURE 1982 1122-5. Napoleon Natal Chart (WG version).
Other diagrams/charts also referred to are not with this transcript version. [Transcriber note: [diagram] means the speaker is referencing a diagram as he or she is speaking. If someone is drawing or writing, with audible sounds of chalk on a blackboard, I indicate this by [drawing] or [writing].]
NOTES:
- Earlier partial transcript used to exist and was used to fill in for the missing audio. Slightly reformatted by JF for readability and to conform to the usual speaker lead-in style.
TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT prior to 2018, reformatted by jf 2018. In 2023, IT updates prefatory matter, footer, and audio file name, completes TOC and Book List, alters Subsubjects to make more accurate, adds Plotinus quotes section, fixes errors/typos, adds new notes within transcript, adds one diagram and four natal charts and references within transcript to these, reformats to accord with new conventions. Archival verbatim transcript – V12a.
AUDIO FILES: 1982 1122a. [Note 1: "Tape" and "Side" refer to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files. Note 2: We are missing the first audio file for this class.]
1982 11/22 at Wisdom's Goldenrod
Astrology; Theory
[Partial Transcript Begins]
[Note: See FIGURE AD Supp 12-digital, Table of Aspects: Chaldeans, trans-Saturnians -- natal, transiting, progressed, appended to this transcript for the following. Some version of this schema is referred to throughout the class.]
TS: Where he [Note: Seems to be a reference to AD or TS.] is starting from -- a temporary agreement about natal chart -- the natal Chaldeans represent the ego structure -- psychosomatic organism or animate --
Call transiting Chaldeans the Light of Nature -- not just cosmic circuit but call them the functioning of World-Soul's powers.
Call the natal, transiting and progressed Chaldeans an elaboration of Jupiter in Virgo -- some kind of development of powers of the soul --
This is an instantiation of ego structure-image in Nature or cosmos -- Six forces of Nature now embodied in some way --
The residue of interaction of those two --
The natal Chaldeans some kind of fixation of soul -- but here totally embodied in psychosomatic organism --
The transiting Chaldeans -- the free activity of powers of the soul still as embodied --
The progressed Chaldeans -- either the residual change in ego or animate [one word illegible] transforming and-or influence of rational soul or both --
AD: Shall we summarize it by saying the three represent the ongoing ego structure.
TS: Here the progressed Chaldeans show the development of the animate -- Then the Intellection or Nous in soul would be imaged in cosmos by trans-Saturnians -- as the others were offspring of Jupiter in Virgo -- These guys would be offspring of Saturn in Leo -- from that end the natal trans-Saturnian as evolving World-Idea --
Progressed trans-Saturnians as the interaction of these two and the retention in soul of something of World-Idea's evolution.
TS: Another way to look at it -- the natal position might be the essence impartible about body as imaged by the natal trans-Saturnians
Partible about body being natal Chaldeans --
The impartible sameness coming from progressions --
The partible difference coming from transits --
The trans-Saturnians might be image of impartible essence -- or Intellective act of soul --
Where the Chaldeans might be the soul as exclusively animate -- totally a creation of Nature -- so partible -- in that sense that is divisible about body --
The individual horoscope -- a creation of an individual -- the individual as 'we' --
TS: Now by working off these definitions--
AS: Question -- what happened to rational soul?
AD: He's calling it Light of Nature -- transiting Chaldeans modifying ego structure.
TS: I was putting rational soul manifesting as combination of those two -- when you have trans-Saturnians and Chaldeans together that would make the rational soul --
AD: Start again --
Natal chart represents ego structure
Transiting Chaldeans -- Light of Nature -- modifications of ego structure going on incessantly -- moment to moment --
Progressed Chaldeans represent ego structure at moment you decide to look at it -- a particular year -- say 28th year -- the developing ego --
TS: Next is the Intellection in the Soul -- the natal trans-Saturnians -- in other words -- willing, feeling, knowing -- that is where willing, feeling, and knowing come from in the chart -- thought of that as an image of Intellection in soul.
AD: That would be how the World-Ideas are being instilled in that ego.
When we were doing Einstein we saw certain ideas being injected into ego -- any chart --
In fact, that's the only willing, feeling, and knowing you have -- are the trans-Saturnians -- call it injection into ego --
TS: The predominant influence of natal position of trans-Saturnians was as the willing, feeling, and knowing and specific structure of them as World-Ideas -- [Transcriber note: There is an added sentence in a second crossed-out version of these few sentences that reads: the transiting trans-Saturnians function as bringing in the World-Idea.]
AD: Look at trans-Saturnians -- that is the basic idea of Nous that is being incorporated into ego structure that from Nous is operative in you.
TS: When looking at examples of a chart, Einstein etc., you are immediately referring to the transits -- we found that it was the Sabian symbol planet was on, not the natal one, that seem to be indicative of the nature of the idea brought in -- that's the history where we have been coming from.
VM: That's not true of Einstein -- thought his Uranus was individuality -- incarnation of the individual into matter. [Note: Jones, Virgo 2, "A simple but impressively large white cross has been set up in splendid isolation on top of a commanding eminence." See FIGURE 1982 1122-2, Einstein Natal Chart, appended to this transcript.]
RG: You're not disagreeing -- say ideas in Nous emphasizes the content side -- symbol side -- but when they speak about the function that's manifesting, that seems to talk about the planetary side.
AD: What I'm trying to say is that a certain caution [sic; portion] of Nous is getting incorporated into the ego structure which is usually the degrees the trans-Saturnian is sitting on -- Not going to disagree that they represent the willing, feeling, and knowing -- but something of the World-Mind is being instilled into the ego. If you are looking at natal chart you will find that aspect of Nous being instilled into you is where trans-Saturnian is sitting.
LR: Because at that level of Nous -- subject and object are more unified than they are at any other level -- at that level of Nous, Intellect -- known and knower are not separate -- so to speak of World-Idea is not contradictory to speak of it as willing, feeling, and knowing -- insofar as World-Idea is embedded in each -- it is structuring willing, feeling, and knowing -- there is no gap between.
AD: Another important consideration is that this is the way World-Idea is evolving.
LR: Through each individual ego --
AD: So take great men -- in a sense they are molders of civilization but in a sense they too are being molded by the changing World-Idea. So we look at their charts and find it is always a trans-Saturnian idea coming into ego which expresses that in the world -- gets assimilated by that world -- and alters that civilization. So everyone has something of the Nous operating all the time.
TS: An example would be like Emerson having Pluto in fifth house -- the symbol there was an indication of self-reliance. [Note: Jones, Pisces 9, "A tiny jockey from his magnificent horse looks about eagerly and as the race starts he becomes a god of speed." See FIGURE 1982 1122-3, Ralph Waldo Emerson Natal Chart, appended to this transcript. The chart used for Emerson in later WG classes has his Pluto in the sixth house.]
AD: Are you saying he was bringing in idea that we don't need any guru, preacher, priests between me and God -- doing it for his time.
TS: The progressed trans-Saturnians would represent the ego's retention of the World-Idea -- the way to actually assimilate the effects of these transits.
LR: Or the ego's development by being worked on by the World-Idea.
The Nous in motion would be rational soul -- somehow the transits have to do with actualization and that's what's meant by rational soul.
AD: What have you found the transiting trans-Saturnians to mean in the natal chart?
TS: Bringing in a message and state of mind -- both -- using someone more receptive like Jung or Verdi -- big ideas were available at the time transiting trans-Saturnians were aspecting -- in themselves, just general conditions of the world -- in other words -- In Wagner's time -- there was an eight year period when he got very political -- that was the time Uranus and Neptune were conjunct in the sky and for quite a while Europe was in a state of turmoil -- those kind of aspects would subordinate individuals to their own intensity -- would be like general condition of world one lives in -- the transiting Chaldeans in themselves give floods, earthquakes, etc.
RG: Aren't both general conditions?
TS: Yes, I was trying to make a difference that there is some kind of intelligence trying to bring in more an actual evolution in the degrees the trans-Saturnians are in -- while the transiting Chaldeans are simply a functioning of Nature.
AD: I'm trying to conceive of them in themselves before bringing them into relation -- if possible -- totally independent first -- so we can consider what we are bringing into relation.
Louis: What's the world condition independent of man, besides floods, etc.
TS: Thinking of the World-Idea -- such as breakdown of political order in Europe -- example of Uranus conjunct Neptune --
VM: What he meant by isolation was not looking at what transiting trans-Saturnians aspecting progressed Chaldeans are about.
RG: All of us have Pluto in Leo -- there's a definite consciousness that we participate in greater than the individual which comes through the individual -- there's a definite quality of generation --
AD: Could we say the transiting trans-Saturnians aspecting ego structure -- the natal Chaldeans -- say that's the way individual aspects or aspects of categories of imagination are being modified.
RG: But they are being modified in a particular way, they are also being modified by the Chaldean transits -- what's the special way they modify?
AD: The special way -- it's a big idea, or idea from the Nous, which is modifying the ego structure -- not just another Chaldean planet doing the modifying -- not just a category of imagination modifying -- Even progressed Saturn on natal Venus modification would not be like Uranus on Venus -- the perspective or view coming in that no Chaldean is going to provide you with --
AS: Like Plotinus says, we are always Intellective but we don't always make use of that -- that means the ego doesn't always make use of it -- [Note: See Plotinus, I.1.9 (fourth para), IV.3.30 (last para), V.3.3 (eleventh para).]
TS: Are you saying the transiting trans-Saturnian is the constant Intellection of soul?
AS: When transiting trans-Saturnian aspects natal chart that would indicate that the higher Intellection is available all the way down -- He says anything not transmitted all the way down to actual sensible man is not made aware or so if transiting trans-Saturnian on natal Chaldean would indicate that the higher Intellection is available all the way down -- Now he says the lowest man has the image of the higher man -- so in the natal chart we have an image of willing, feeling, and knowing as the trans-Saturnians.
AD: Which are interpretated [sic; interpreted] by the Chaldeans --
AS: Yes, seems reason this is going on is that you're identified with your ego -- the third guy -- So even though the trans-Saturnians are always Intellective -- you are not always aware of it -- In his terms it means the light of trans-Saturnians doesn't come all the way down to the ego -- so you are not aware of it -- if you are identified with the ego -- When transiting trans-Saturnians transit to natal Chaldeans -- the light of the higher soul becomes available -- namely the ideas are getting filtered into that ego -- Now it seems that if you were at the next level -- if you were a rational being then you wouldn't need to wait for a transit of a Chaldean planet -- you could be at that level -- if you were at the level of Intellectual being you wouldn't need to wait [for] transiting trans-Saturnian to deliver ideas because you would have them all the time. However, if you are identified with the lowest man, you have to wait for transits in a way, because you don't have rational available permanently -- you don't have the Intellect available at that level.
AD: Let's summarize -- you're identified with the natal chart -- the Chaldeans -- that means the trans-Saturnians are unavailable to you unless they directly aspect the natal chart -- Now if you are inclined to be very rational like an Emerson -- he will be functioning more from the planetary circuit -- the rational consciousness -- there the trans-Saturnians are available to him even if not aspecting.
TS: If you just look at the natal Chaldeans -- transiting and progressed -- you are speaking only of evolution of ego -- Now when speaking of the natal trans-Saturnians and transiting and progressed trans-Saturnians, are you there speaking of something of its functioning of rational soul?
AD: No -- the Intellect -- then the rational soul is what is going to join them if they are rational?
VM: How does the rational soul join or relate?
AD: Take Tim's analysis -- look at natal chart [as] the Chaldeans -- then transiting and progressed Chaldeans -- all these are ongoing transformation, modification, alteration of ego itself.
Now the next group down below is how ideas in Nous or soul's higher willing, feeling, and knowing is going to play a role in that -- So, in case of the natal trans-Saturnians -- that is already idea destined to get incorporated -- assuming ego is going to take it in -- the transiting trans-Saturnians are not available to us -- If you have say Uranus going through your chart not aspecting it you won't even know what they mean -- what ideas are being propounded -- (as) for another person if it is aspecting his chart, it will mean something to him -- then the third level -- the progressed trans-Saturnians -- would mean the way ideas have incorporated themselves into and become a permanent part of ego structure.
Lauren: Don't the trans-Saturnians affect us when they change houses?
AD: If you notice -- tell me about it --
LR: Pluto goes into different house -- say tenth -- everything changes --
AD: Tim, what have you noticed?
TS: I have only noticed it to be the case when there is a natal Chaldean trans-Saturnian aspect -- if you have for example, Sun square Uranus exact and transiting Uranus changes houses, the arena of life in which you will have to work out that square will change -- you will see new version of that same old struggle show up again -- not sure if I have seen it in a case where there is not an aspect natally to give you an avenue of knowledge.
RG: Certainly when trans-Saturnians change signs even when not aspecting your chart there seems to be a distinctive change -- as when Pluto changed from Virgo to Libra -- as least we all talked about it.
AD: Let's go back --
TS: Could you conceive the possibility that a specific fragment of Nous that is going to be worked out in the ego -- figured in natal trans-Saturnians -- the way it is going to actually be accomplished would be the transiting trans-Saturnians and the ability of the ego to retain that effort on part of Nous -- would be indicated by progressed trans-Saturnians?
AD: Yes --
RG: I don't see why the progressed trans-Saturnians if retained by Nous would have to be in relationship to the Chaldeans and trans-Saturnians -- not the progressed trans-Saturnians themselves -- In fact, in this view, can't conceive any meaning for progressed trans-Saturnians -- how could you, in the same breath, talk about them as ego development and talk about them as Nous -- the evolution of World-Idea or Ideas in Nous?
If you talk about the way World-Idea gets retained in the ego you would go to its progressed Chaldean on a trans-Saturnian or pick that one over just a progressed trans-Saturnian -- That doesn't seem to have any meaning independent of the Chaldean planets if you're talking about something which gets retained in the ego -- It doesn't seem in progressed trans-Saturnian you would speak of retention in ego -- you would speak about a deposit in Nous or in your own Intellectual Venus.
AD: If you looked at your progressed transit -- say it moved 1-2 degrees away -- wouldn't you say the way you understand is basically oriented by that progression?
RG: Yes, I could say the quality of your Uranus, the higher knower is changed.
AD: Would that be deposited in the chart of the understanding the ego has -- wouldn't the final result of that be deposited in the ego?
RG: Only if there is a relation to a Chaldean planet -- I think Uranus could move by progression and if Chaldean didn't hit it or it hit the Chaldean it wouldn't necessarily relate to the ego structure.
AD: What's your Uranus?
RG: 13 Cancer
AD: Did it move?
Discussion of Richard's Uranus --
AD: You wouldn't say that the progressed Uranus degree is not something you are not aware of in understanding and knowing and that's not going to leave traces of that knowing in your ego structure?
If you read the Uranus you have -- read the degrees as though Uranus is transiting, I don't think it's going to have the same results -- in other words, you have it at 12 Cancer -- then when it moves to 13-14 as transiting you're not going to have the same results.
AD: But it seems that if you have an aspect between trans-Saturnian and natal Chaldean -- that's a guarantee something is going to happen -- something is going to come into you -- but in the case of that planet transiting -- is there such guarantee?
RG: No -- but if we ascribe the knowing of Intellective phase of soul or image of it and not to what we call the ego which is the Chaldean structure -- there doesn't seem to be a theoretical basis yet to understand what's going to get deposited into the ego but the very way the Intellect phase is knowing the -- rather than that deposited in the ego --
AD: I think I see what you were saying before -- that the transiting trans-Saturnians by the circumstances that become operative in your chart -- are noticeable because the alteration in the circumstances that are taking place is the very way that natal trans-Saturnian is becoming available to you.
AD: The trans-Saturnians -- if you natally have an aspect to the trans-Saturnians -- the revelation and meaning of that is through the transits because in the transits of the trans-Saturnian the basic meaning of that is getting revealed by the circumstances that the houses represent -- so it became available.
AD: So in that way I understand now what he was saying -- as a planet transits houses the circumstances are noticeable -- as you said renewal of same problem but you haven't grasped significance -- Like Einstein -- Uranus make [sic; made] an aspect of [sic; to] Saturn-Mercury and he got the idea but it had to go all the way to the septile before there was a conclusion -- while during the time it was transiting between the two positions there must have been through circumstances a contact made which eventually brought it to fruition -- what he was working at was crystallized with septile.
TS: I've noticed a problem may be posed in certain kind of circumstances but it wouldn't be resolved till the next aspect -- say you have Uranus unaspected natally and certain problems will arise when it changes houses -- it will go and wait until it aspects the natal Sun -- then you'll see a solution.
AD: Evidently certain amount of circumstances are necessary for the revelation to take place --
TS: Next -- natal Chaldeans to natal Chaldeans -- think of ego's relationship to itself.
AD: You mean ego and image-activity of ego?
TS: Natal Chaldeans to transiting Chaldeans -- that one I have as Nature's stimulation of ego -- the way in which the light of Nature or forces of Nature are stimulating the psychosomatic organism.
AD: So you're speaking about modification of ego structure by natural forces or planets --
AD: Let's do --- Chaldeans to progressed ---
TS: I thought of that as growth of ego through that modification injected into it ----
AD: Look at a natal Saturn -- say it moved in 20 years -- 5 degrees -- it would represent those 5 degrees plus the original together --
TS: It would show that the Saturn or senex has evolved by fact of those forces of Nature to incorporate new reason principles or richer perspective
AD: The transiting Chaldeans to the transiting Chaldean?
TS: That would be the general state of Nature -- like earthquakes -- For example, take the Elmira flood -- Venus was conjuncting Mars stationary in Cancer -- (on Elmira's midheaven -- why it happened there)
AD: It might be affecting of any entities involved or could be the general atmosphere which a person was located in --
TS: If you watch for example transiting Mercury conjunct transiting Venus usually things are especially lucid -- transparent -- in terms of communication – whether or not it is in your chart
AD: Transiting Chaldeans to progressed Chaldeans? Those are harder to notice – I have noticed generally aspects to natal are big ones -- must have some meaning to progressed --
TS: I was thinking of these as accumulatively affecting the first column -- In other words if you have natal Chaldean and progressed Chaldean and say it has some effect on growth of ego -- if that hasn't happened the next one certainly is not going to be meaningful -- transiting Chaldeans to progressed Chaldeans -- say the person's progressions are important that year then when the transits come maybe that's when that understanding of what the evolution really has been to that person --
AD: So that you have to carefully watch if you have a transit to natal Chaldean then when it aspects the same Chaldean progressed, you got to watch it to be able to understand what originally happened?
TS: How what originally happened is now relevant to where you are at now --
TS: Now we have progressed Chaldeans to progressed Chaldeans -- the way the meaning understands itself -- the understanding that is available at that time --
AD: Very often what the ego has to realize -- if you think of transiting planets as events that are happening and think of progressions as the meanings that are accruing to you -- for example -- your Sun moves from 1 degree Libra into Scorpio -- so you're 30 years older and you're supposed to be 30 years wiser -- that's easy to see -- you'll say that's the event and the meaning of the event is I've grown to --- to the progression -- in other words, what I understand now. If you have two progressions, is a question of meaning understanding meaning
RG: What does that mean?
CDA: When one meaning that has become available through a progression and that's relating to another meaning that's become available (through/to) a progression. It's those two in relationship.
AD: Don't think of meaning as theoretical or conceptual. It's actual existential condition of ego confronting the fruits of its own meaning.
VM: Almost like synthesis of meaning -- drawing together synthesis of two previous disparate experiences and now you can draw the meaning of both of them and bring them into some kind of harmonious relationship.
AD: Say it's the confrontation of meaning to meaning -- have to understand something about yourself -- and not in terms of events or circumstances from outside.
RG: How to distinguish the transiting Chaldeans as light of Nature from rational soul? My observation of transits is that sometimes they bring in a lot more than just natural processes -- When you have Saturn on Sun transit it seems a real stoppage of Nature -- not just unfoldment of Nature but that a nirodha is going on where you can turn around the process of natural unfoldment that Saturn brings to it. So it seems when Saturn is on Sun there is something of the rational soul entering the being and you can get into the nature of what the Sun is --
AD: You don't think that's the light of Nature?
RG: If it is then I just need to understand it. What it means [for] that process to be light of soul -- how that's distinguished from rational soul.
AD: What are the three lights -- Divine Light -- Light of Reason -- Light of Nature --
LR: The rationale that Tim is coming from is that the Chaldean to Chaldean is natural -- transiting Chaldeans to Chaldeans is rational -- transiting trans-Saturnians to Chaldeans is intelligible.
RG: I like the scheme -- the individual rational soul as the relation of trans-Saturnian to the Chaldean -- that accords with how I understand KC [K.C. Bhattacharyya] using middle level. [Note: See K.C. Bhattacharyya, Studies in Philosophy, Volume 2, "The Concept of the Absolute and Its Alternative Forms".]
AD: Do you understand that's the second light?
RG: Yes -- but it also seems when we speak of transiting Chaldean we can speak of it also as cosmic reasoning -- two kinds of rational souls -- cosmic rational and individual rational.
TS: It may well be a nirodha takes place when you understand the rationality or intelligence Saturn brings in -- it's two psychosomatic functions -- it's not specified gnostic -- Saturn may come by and hit my Venus and bring a certain restraint which I may even welcome.
[Transcriber note: The following two paragraphs are repeated once more a few paragraph later. I don't know where they actually belong so I type the transcript as I find it and let the reader decide.]
AD: Which should be included in the part of rational soul function -- like Saturn on Sun -- it can be nirodha but not in ultimate sense -- The light of Nature is rational -- in sense she follows certain laws -- I'm not going to distinguish that from rational soul.
They may not be our laws -- may not be our reasons -- it is that the human has to come to understand what those reasons are.
RG: Yes -- I think that the transits are a model for that -- on different levels. It is the cosmos -- it isn't the individual and that within the relation of natal trans-Saturnians to natal Chaldeans is the generation of the individual rational –
AD: So when you say transiting Chaldeans to progressed Chaldeans -- the understanding of the natural laws according to a more mature ego than the one you came in natally with.
Say progressed Chaldeans represent maturation of the ongoing development should understand Venus through those transits better.
RG: But maybe not have the experience of it -- with Saturn on Sun you have experience of deepening of Solar consciousness.
AD: Or inhibition of the Solar consciousness -- Saturn on Sun is inhibition but that doesn't preclude the inclusion of more responsibilities or anything like that.
RG: And that inhibition can also bring about an introversion of Solar function.
[Transcriber note: The following three paragraphs are a repeat, as noted above.]
AD: In that sense it can be conceived as nirodha -- It may well be nirodha but not in the ultimate sense -- light of Nature is rational -- in the sense she follows certain laws. I'm not going to distinguish that from rational soul.
AD: They may not be our laws -- may not be our reasons -- it is that the human has to come to understand what those reasons are.
RG: I think that transits are a model for that -- on different levels -- is the cosmos -- it isn't the individual and that within the relation of natal trans-Saturnians to natal Chaldeans is the generation of the individual rational.
RG: Let's say Saturn goes on progressed Sun 2½ years later -- at 32 -- now you say there's been some deepening of understanding -- but because it's progressed Sun not natal Sun -- ego doesn't have a direct experience of that inhibition -- it now in its understanding has an understanding of that inhibition -- but not a direct experience to the ego like Saturn on Sun.
AD: That perplexes me too -- the relation of natal to progressed -- what does it mean (no conclusion at time of discussion)
Randy (RC) made a remark --
AD: You're saying it's progressed meanings -- progressed planets -- being put to a test to realize or brought to one's attention whether the meanings he has is adequate to what's happening?
AD: In other words when transiting Saturn hits progressed Sun after hitting natal Sun -- are you brought to confront that fact that meanings you are working with are inadequate?
If you say that all you are at the time when progression takes place, natal to progressed -- all you -- those meanings, true or false -- are the only meanings you have. The test of whether they are adequate or not would arise when or if a transiting Uranus aspects that -- now you'll be confronted with those much higher meanings.
RC: I noticed specifically when Uranus hit the Sun the [inaudible] completely brushed aside and when Uranus hit progressed Sun a whole type of new vitality come in to assist with the meanings I had been developing in between -- they actually started to come to life as a meaning framework -- made sense -- held together -- explained something of what had happened at that time --
TS: Was that 30 (?) years later?
RC: No -- 7 years later.
AD: I think that problem is more complicated than on the surface -- You would have to go back to the chart to see what kind of aspects were being formed -- also rational aspects -- between trans-Saturnians -- Should keep to this simplified version -- do them one at a time.
AD: Richard, are you satisfied with equating rational soul with vital Nature? Most medievals say Nature operates with reason -- not blindly -- the aspirant must try to find out what those reasons are -- work with Nature -- try to overcome Nature that way -- not against it.
AD: (looking at schema) This is a formula in a way, Tim.
TS: Let's do natal trans-Saturnians to natal trans-Saturnians -- just relationship to themselves.
RG: Or on their degree -- not just an aspect -- but in themselves too.
TS: Say take our generation as Uranus-Neptune square --
RG: Mainly Pluto-Neptune sextile -- that's our generation --
TS: We talked about this as the original organization of the higher knower -- willing, feeling, knowing -- I had down here -- soul's knowledge of self (maybe that's not just right)
AD: You're speaking about the higher knower as it is in you.
RG: In KC's [K.C. Bhattacharyya] language -- it is the image of supra-reflective consciousness of person.
AD: Say you have Uranus Pluto Neptune trine in chart -- grand trine of these three --
VM: That's the guru kola --
LR: Say that's how willing, feeling, and knowing all relate to each other.
RG: Doesn't have to be aspects -- could be just natal --
AD: That would be relationship of higher knower to Nous -- would be on degree -- that would be taken for granted -- say you have the three trans-Saturnians and they're related or aspecting each other.
LR: That's what this is talking about -- in our words when we defined just natal transits -- that was the way World-Idea was structured in terms of willing, feeling, and knowing -- that was when you would look at Uranus on a degree.
AD: Not the World-Idea -- the World-Idea in you --
LR: When we're looking at relationship -- all the things here define a certain kind of relationship -- so I thought -- natal to natal trans-Saturnian -- meant aspects between natal Uranus to natal Pluto --
TM: For example, for some generation the meaning of evolution of this higher feeling would have to be linked to their higher will -- say they have Neptune sextile Pluto -- but in Vivekananda, PB's they weren't -- The evolution of higher will was free to operate and allowed to develop separately from feeling and knowing -- not that they were not present but to a lesser degree -- For persons in our generation if the higher feelings are to evolve -- they also have to evolve concomitantly some receptivity to the higher will -- but for him each one would be separate -- there would be times he would develop feelings -- and then sometimes knowing, etc.
AD: A point remains -- what do we mean trans-Saturnians in relation to one another -- or if they don't have a relation to one another?
AD: What does it mean to have a Uranus trine Pluto -- not in relationship to your chart?
LR: Uranus trine Pluto natally -- the thinking would have to be embodied by the will --
AD: Do we agree?
LR: Obviously not.
AD: Take my Pluto trine Uranus for example --
LR: Anything known had to be living in the will --
AD: What does trine mean?
LR: Living embodiment -- living incarnation -- that's what I'm saying trine is --
TS: Idea of Man has to be equally understood in will --
AD: That's a little closer --
CDA: So, you can speak of relationship of these two ideas outside of ego --
AD: That's what we're trying to do --
[Partial Transcript Ends]
[Audio File 1982 1122a Begins, Verbatim Transcript Begins below]
AD: --when the idea-- what does it mean if Nep-- Neptune opposes Uranus in a general way, alright, then maybe we can see what we're talking about when we relate it to an ego structure.
RG: But you know, [TS simultaneously: (Amazing.)] I agree with Carol in some sense here. Because if you have a Neptune Uranus opposition, it somehow-- it also ne-- it simultaneously negates the understanding of the higher will and the higher--
AD: I think you ought to go to Florida! (bit of laughter)
RG: --the higher knowing and the higher feeling relating to each other.
AD: What do you mean negates? Maybe it brings them both out!
TS: Why couldn't we-- yeah. Just in a--
AD (simultaneously): Maybe it forces them out into the open that (it) never would've been before.
[student assents, very faint]
RG: I didn't mean negates that it denies their activity.
AD (simultaneously): Alright, I'm sorry, then take it back, use another word.
RG: I didn't mean that it negates their activity. But the vision of them as manifesting-- as being the higher knowers has some meaning attached to it, and there's some understanding of conformity, that they're each envisioning the same principle as being the higher knower, willer, and feeler, that there's a certain (unical) nature to them as manifesting the higher knowledge. And when you bring them in conflict through an opposition, it may mean something different than looking them-- at them on their own degree in themselves, which is what Carol was asking. Does, by the nature of them being (aspectides), and if you have understood previously that the nature of aspects bringin-- brings in the nature of-- something of irrationality, there's a certain contradiction in speaking of the-- the aspectual relation of the higher knower to the higher feeler in an irrational aspect.
TS: But then that-- the alternative--
RG: I was just making Carol's point clearer.
TS (simultaneously): I know but-- I-- the thing that's being (overstepped with) that is the assumption that an aspect must necessarily maintain an identity of meaning whether it's between a Chal-- when you go from the Chaldeans to the trans-Saturnians.
LR(?) (simultaneously): Well that's simply what I was trying to (get) [one/two words inaudible]
RG (simultaneously): (No/Well) right, I agree.
TS (simultaneously): And I think that's (what/the one) she was trying to ask, was that, [RG simultaneously: Right.] when you speak about a trine, [student assents, faint] are you speaking about a trine amongst exclusively these Chaldeans. There you might speak of it as a-- an-- an irrational function. But when you speak about it in the trans-Saturnians I thought the implication from Anthony's remark was there that that would be a form in the Nous, there'd be some kind of [one/two words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): You're not looking (it) through the ego.
RG: Right.
RG/S(?): For sure.
TS: (And) that's so.
RG: Ok so aspects mean something very different.
AD: (Yeah--)
TS: Yeah.
S: That's all.
AD (simultaneously): I mean that's really a tremendously interesting problem, if you had Neptune opposite Uranus, you know, it'd be like a knower in opposition to feeling in the Nous(./?) What the hell are we talking about?
RG (simultaneously): Yeah I don't know.
TS: I think that would be Kant, I--
AD (simultaneously): That's why I thought we-- we would have to look at what it means for the trans-Saturnians in aspect to each other.
RG: Uh-hm.
TS: I think that might've been Immanuel Kant, I think he had a Uranus Neptune opposition square like (the) [one word inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Well he deserves it. (bit of laughter)
TS: I had to look it up.
RG: He had a one degree Saturn square to Neptune.
TS (simultaneously): It's not in there.
AH: (June), if the meaning of an opposition interpreted natally is-- is one thing, the meaning of a opposition interpreted in this abstract trans-Saturnian way-- you couldn't think of that opposition as being any kind of stress or any kind of contradiction that it might represent in the natal chart.
AD: In the abstraction, in the-- abstracted from the ego, I can't think of it as an opposition in the way we would think of it in the ego, the way the ego would understand. The ego would understand them as two opposing things, on the one hand there's something that is being felt in a certain mode continuously and unrelentlessly, and on the other hand there's something that is known and these two in opposition. I can see that struggle taking place in the ego. I can't see that taking place in the Nous.
AH: Yeah what could possibly be [AD simultaneously: Yeah.] wrong or create friction at that level, right? [RG simultaneously: But you'll say--] (Feels very confusing.)
RG: Mm, I think if we went to a time in world history where there was a Uranus Neptune opposition (is) what we should try, we sh-- we'll find it and then talk. But--
TS: We know, that's when Einstein-- 1906.
RG: There was Uranus Neptune opposition?
TS: Yeah. Remember? The square to his Saturn-- Saturn Mercury. 1904.
AD: Yeah that was in the sky for him?
LR: And Emerson there was a Neptune Pluto conjunction on his Venus, wasn't there?
TS: Yeah.
RG: Right.
LR: Or was that Uranus?
RG: Uranus.
AD: Now look, isn't that interesting, Uranus Neptune opposition, Einstein coming out with the theory of relativity? It was like there was a crisis in the-- in the scientific knowledge of that period?
RG: Uh-hm. Uh-hm.
VM(?): Uh-hm.
RG: See [half/one word inaudible]
AH (simultaneously): But where is the crisis, for (the--)
VM (simultaneously): The intellectual community.
AH: For Einstein or for-- for the world?
AD (simultaneously): The intellectual community of Europe of the 1900's was in a crisis.
VM: Yeah.
AD: Especially once Planck started the ball rolling.
RG/S(?): Yeah.
RG: But you know, I'm-- I have trouble integrating this with our understanding of it in-- because they're so-- they move so slowly and they really do impact generations and world cultures and almost define the Weltanschauung of the era, that--
VM (simultaneously): [couple words inaudible] just--
AD (simultaneously): Yes but isn't that done basically through the individual?
RG: Yeah, yeah, I'm not-- certainly it's done through individuals.
AD: I'm not saying that the indi-- individual is making history, (I--) alright? I'm just saying, through the individual though, the-- these things come to pass.
RG: Right.
AD: A Genghis Khan or a Napoleon is given a-- almost a divine ordinance to do something.
RG: But it almost seems it's the way the [one inaudible TS word simultaneous with RG] World-Idea that relates itself to the individual rather than the relation of the higher-- of the higher functions [one word inaudible]
LR: No wait a second, you just switched though, you're talking about transiting trans-Saturnians [RG simultaneously: Even they-- even-- but I'd say even they-- right.] to transiting trans-Saturnians, [RG simultaneously: But I'd say--] that's different.
RG: No but that trans-Saturnian na-- transiting becomes fixed in the natal chart [LR simultaneously: For somebody.] for his generation, yeah, for the whole generation.
LR (simultaneously): Right but we just-- we just switched though.
RG: No but I-- even say it's in the natal chart, (I mean--)
LR (simultaneously): In the natal chart, then it would be structuring the willing knowing and feeling.
RG: [one/two words inaudible] I don't know what that means. What does that really mean? What do you think it means?
LR: I think it's where the-- the higher knower comes together with the World-Idea, the way that's going to happen.
RG (simultaneously): But then you're interpreting it two ways. What do you mean the higher knower with the World-Idea, the World-Idea is which part?
LR: The World-Idea would be like the transiting trans-Saturnians. When you relate it to a chart, when you have it in a chart, [RG: Uh-hm.] that's what's-- that World-Idea will be specified in terms of willing, knowing, and feeling for that individual.
RG: Uh-hm.
LR: And you've just switched from a natal context to a transiting context.
RG: No but [couple words inaudible] (doing it) [one/two words inaudible]
LR (simultaneously): So when you're talking about Emerson-- Einstein, that opposition affected the whole world, in his chart it-- it T-- T-squared his Saturn Mercury, so he was the one that came out with that theory.
[student assents, very faint]
RG: Uh-hm. Right.
LR: But for the world, the world would've been in a certain crisis situation.
S: Well you know (what), that's interesting in terms of the simultaneous discovery of certain principles in different places around the world about the same time. [one word inaudible] quite frequently large ideas come out-- [LR simultaneously: Yeah.] manifest in several different minds at once [student assents] without having necessarily contact with each other.
RG: Right so we have to find somebody who was born in January 1907 and has it natally. I mean to understand maybe what it means (there).
AD (simultaneously): Another example might be Leibniz and Newton, both (discovery) (of/or) the calculus.
S: Calculus, yeah.
RG: January, February 1907.
IF: But Anthony, like you have Pluto trine Uranus and there's a whole generation right now which growing up which Pluto is conjunct Uranus like your son, your sons.
AD: Yes?
IF: What-- does that what, from that particular--
AD (simultaneously): Well that's-- that's what we're trying to understand, what does that mean?
IF: Well but I-- if it is natal to natal, the-- you know, I mean (that) never thought about it so maybe it's (easier/easy) just to-- for you to just try to (come--)
AD (simultaneously): Suppose you have Pluto Uranus conjunction in Virgo, like one of the kids of the earlier generation, [couple students assent] what does that mean…in abstraction from the ego? [short pause] Maybe it's too hard, maybe we ought to tackle [LR/S(?) simultaneously: What about--] something easier.
IF: Well maybe they really have-- that whole generation has to embody that individuation process (as/is) idea which our generation started.
AD (simultaneously): Well don't-- don't rest-- don't restrict it to a psychological terminology. But I follow what you're saying. A certain idea is being embodied by that generation, alright, you're speaking about a close conjunction within one degree, alright, and let's say if that lasted for five years, everybody born in that five year period, that idea would somehow be embodied and [student assents] manifested through the various egos (ok).
TS/S(?): Maybe they just would never be able to understand what theoretical knowledge means. Knowing and being are one thing.
AD: That's very possible. It sounds like-- [students assent] sounds like Socrates multiplied a million-fold.
RG: But it's almost a sense also that knowledge will never be fixed.
TS: [couple/three words inaudible]
[student assents, faint]
TS: [couple/three words inaudible]
RG: (Of) Pluto and Uranus.
AD: Well I think you're saying the converse of what he's saying.
RG: Yeah.
TS: Here's-- I found one finally [student assents] that's established. Herbert Spencer, the philosopher. His Uranus is 28 degrees 30 minutes of Sagittarius. His Pluto is 28 degrees 30 minutes of Pisces. So(,/--) there's an exact square between them.
S: This is the fairy queen Spencer?
TS: No [one word inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): (Oh/No) no, this is the cluck Herbert Spencer. (some laughter)
RG (amidst laughter): (Good for you) [few words inaudible]
S: [couple/few words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): He slept for 35 years and then started writing everything. For 35 years he didn't even read, then all of a sudden he started writing books out of the blue. (some laughter, student words)
LR: What transit did he have when he was 35 years old? (LR laughing)
AD (to BC): What's the matter with you, can't you talk? To them. Go ahead, try. Try it! (laughter, student words)
BC: I just no-- I just nod my head a lot [one word inaudible] (some laughter)
AD: Go ahead, go ahead, say-- say a couple words. (laughter)
VM: Speech, speech!
AD: The ideas are embodied in you too! (bit more laughter, student words) I forgot what you said.
BC: Nothing important.
AD: Well, (what) (we/were)--
S (faint): Napoleon's grand trine.
AD: Napoleon's grand trine. [Note: See FIGURES 1982 1122-4, 5, Napoleon Natal Charts, appended to this transcript for all references to Napoleon's chart.]
[student assents, very faint] (bit of laughter)
TS: What did he have, all three?
BC (simultaneously): He had the grand trine [few inaudible student words simultaneous with BC] between all three of them.
TS: Oh yeah, oh yeah?
S: Yeah.
CDA: So did Edward [one/two words inaudible]
AD: So did--
CDA (faint): But there was-- who else [one/two words inaudible]
LR: So did [few words inaudible] (LR laughing)
AD (simultaneously): Well that would include Bulwer-Lytton. Wouldn't it?
TS: No.
CDA: No.
TS: [couple/few words inaudible]
RG (simultaneously): No, no, he was born with Emerson.
S (very faint in background): He was born with (Emerson) [possibly one/two words inaudible]
AD: Oh I'm sorry. Who was born with Napoleon?
[couple faint inaudible student words in background]
S (simultaneously, very faint): [couple words inaudible] the French revolution(./?)
S (faint): Goethe was close, isn't he?
BS: Beethoven?
AD: No, no, there was [couple/three inaudible TS words simultaneous with AD] [couple/three words inaudible]
LR/S(?) (simultaneously): Voltaire? (CDA laughs a bit)
TS: When was Napoleon born?
AD: Let's try.
TS (simultaneously): It's (over/not) here.
AD: Uh-hm.
CDA (simultaneously): 18 [one word inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): (We might as well) just have a computer [couple/three words inaudible]
TS (simultaneously): No it's not in there.
S (very faint): 1769.
RG (simultaneously): (17--)
TS (simultaneously with S): I looked already (for him).
TS/S(?): What?
LR: Bo's got him, right alongside of Patton.
BC: No. (bit of laughter) (Yeah/No).
AD: He's not gonna talk.
BC: I'll just give them (the char--)
AD (simultaneously): He took a vow of silence. (bit of laughter)
[few faint inaudible student words, bit of laughter]
S: Beethoven had it, right, [S simultaneously: Yeah Beethoven.] it was Beethoven.
AD: Beethoven [students assent] had that too?
LR: Yeah.
S (faint): But, Beethoven's was [couple/few words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Wow, one was a conqueror of the world of thought and the other a conqueror of the world. [student assents] They're both the same? Napoleon and--
S (faint): Beethoven-- Beethoven's was a little closer, wasn't it?
TS: When was B-- do we have-- No that's the 1800's, we don't have it.
S: But that was quite a time.
TS: (Civil wars.) (bit of laughter)
S (very faint, possibly part of background): How do you--
AD: What year was he born?
CDA: I think it was 1769. Is that right? Somewhere around there(./?)
TS (simultaneously): For?
AD: Napoleon?
TS: Yes.
VM: It might also have been Laplace (bit of laughter) might have been born at that same time.
TS: Laplace?
VM: Maybe, I'm not sure. Do we got his chart?
AD: You've seen that in a few Sages too, the grand trine.
[short pause]
TS: (You--) I've only seen it with two out of three but--
AD: Well two out of three isn't bad. (bit of laughter, student assents)
[short pause with background student talking/whispering; background talking continues for a few seconds as class continues]
CDA: Could you-- do-- could you just like maybe say something, if you have any thoughts about-- [BS simultaneously: Beethoven was born 1770.] out-- not counting the-- the aspect but just what-- [BS simultaneously: I think 1770 is Beethoven.] how you would describe their relation to each other. (Understand?) Is it in any way the way that Bhattacharyya speaks of the super-reflective (mind) or even [one/two words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Look, I don't-- I don't think-- I don't think this has ever been discussed anywhere, any time (CDA and AD laughing) in the past few thousand years.
TS: We're making this up as we go along over here [possibly another student: yeah].
CDA (simultaneously): I just wondered if you might have any thoughts that (give) (away/a way) that's--
AD (simultaneously): No but if you aggravate me long enough I'll come up with one or two! (AD and CDA laughing)
TS: You think that grand trine would indicate a typal man?
AD: The trine?
S: [one/two words inaudible]
S (faint whisper in background): A what?
S (faint whisper in background): What is it?
S (faint): The what?
RG(?) (faint): [one/two words inaudible] (bit of laughter, student assents) Archetypal?
VM: What's he mean by typal?
RG (simultaneously): You mean archetypal?
TS (faint): Well yeah. I mean (it created) [one/two words inaudible] like Napoleon, in manifestation [one/two words inaudible] he was [one/two words inaudible, possibly another student]
RG (faint): Yeah, (it's already generated) [one/two words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): (It) certainly-- it certainly seems like an equal distribution of the functions.
VM(?): Yes.
TS: I mean-- I mean like a full-- [students assent, very faint] like a specific [couple words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Willing and feeling, knowing equally distributed and superimposed on the ego structure.
VM/S(?): Uh-hm.
TS: I mean if it was--
AD (simultaneously): So that one without the other, I mean they can't-- you know like in-- to Napoleon a scholar was just another worm, another grub, you know, trying to make a living.
RG (faint): That too.
TS (faint): A lot of people had that grand trine [one word inaudible]
RG (simultaneously): And that's (in trine) too.
AD: Yeah, I imagine, 1769.
TS: Of course it would make-- I-- see for example in his chart, Venus ties into that very closely. Venus is-- fits into it by a tr-- a sextile to Uranus and a sextile to Neptune and an opposition to Pluto. Jupiter is also in an opposition to Uranus and a sextile to Neptune and a sextile to Pluto. So he's got Chaldeans which shoot out (that)(--/.)
AD (simultaneously): [one word inaudible] to connect with it. [TS simultaneously: Yeah which (one/two words inaudible)] Yeah because the theoretical question could be asked this way, suppose you have a grand trine in your chart, ok? And many people must have had a-- had a grand trine when he was born, [TS assents] alright. Why is it Napoleon is Napoleon and the others are nobodies?
[student assents, faint]
S: Right.
AD: Is it that the chart of Napoleon tied into that and the [TS assents] others did not?
RG/S(?): (Could) be.
TS (simultaneously): Well that would be-- it would seem like there would be the three together, in other words, that-- at least from my own thinking so far Anthony I would suggest that it's not just that his chart tied into it but also that there was a fairly sound ego indicated amongst those Chaldeans, [student assents] that some of the Chaldean aspects were suffi-- sufficiently strong to withstand the influx of that.
AD (simultaneously): To take (it).
TS: 'Cause I've seen charts (of/or) people who have very strong aspects amongst the trans-Saturnians, and very strong aspects from trans-Saturnian to Chaldean, but nothing in the Chaldean to take it and they're under a lot of stress to say the least. And they're not able to incorporate that-- that reflective awareness.
AD: In other words they can't understand the ideas working through them.
TS: Not at all.
AD: Not at all.
TS: No, it just-- it happens totally circumstantially, you know, this-- one person I know literally went into shock when she [AD simultaneously: Oh yeah.] became aware of herself. It's amazing.
AD: Oh no, I've seen that myself, I've seen-- I've seen trans-Saturnians hit Chaldean that were aspect and the person would go psychotic. Yeah, I've seen that, I've seen them die.
RG: But-- it's almost like what we're saying though is that the aspects can either facilitate the revelation of the higher functions or it can hinder them.
AD: Yeah.
RG: But-- but the relationship themselves don't seem to be between the higher faculties but between the-- it's almost the field for its revelation or non-revelation.
AD: But it's what I meant by saying that the ego is the battlefield within which the higher willing, feeling, and knowing are gonna take place.
TS: I think-- weren't you also saying though that the specific or peculiar form of the Nous might be manifested if there is a relation between the three?
AD: Yeah, same thing.
RG: Uh-hm.
TS: Ok.
AD (simultaneously): Same thing. What was [RG simultaneously: But--] it that they call-- you remember in the Bhagavad Gita he refers to the body and mind as the field for the activity of the inner dweller? I don't remember the quote but it was something like that.
LR (faint): (What did you/What'd you just) say Tim?
TS (very faint to LR): That the transiting [few faint inaudible student words simultaneous with TS] aspect [few words inaudible] this is the form of the Nous.
AD: Tim let's go to an easier one.
TS (simultaneously): Ok. Ok, trans-Saturnian transiting to-- (bit of laughter)
RG: That's even harder.
AD: Can't we dec-- can't we agree on an easy one?
VM: How about NT?
RG (simultaneously): Not in this level, they're all hard.
S (simultaneously): No, none of those (will do).
VM: NT to TT.
TS: That's what I was going to.
RG (faint): Natal trans-Saturnian [half/one word inaudible]
TS (simultaneously): The natal trans-Saturnian to the [S simultaneously: Transiting (one/two words inaudible)] transiting trans-Saturnian.
VM (faint): That's a tough--
LR: In other words, we all had Uranus [TS simultaneously: Uranus on Neptune, right.] on Neptune, Pluto on Neptune(--/.)
AD: Ok.
TS: Yeah.
LR (simultaneously): I remember those.
AD: You do?
TS: It's tough for a girl. No.
LR: You too?
S (simultaneously): Oooh. (some laughter)
S: (Right.)
LR (faint): It's a conspiracy.
S (simultaneously, faint): Oh dear.
S: The boys club. (bit of laughter)
AD: You see what I mean, Tim? We got a nice filing system that only a Virgo could devise.
RG: Right. And that's-- (RG starting to laugh)
VM (simultaneously): And there's nothing in the files though! (laughter)
S (amidst laughter): Wait till you [couple inaudible student words simultaneous with S] see all the drawers!
RG (amidst laughter): Empty data (base).
AD (simultaneously, amidst laughter): (Did you) come up with [couple words inaudible]
S (amidst laughter, faint): It's just empty (data).
VM (simultaneously, laughing): Right, you got all these wonderful new envelopes, you got nothin' in them.
TS (simultaneously): Put fairy tales in them, you guys can straighten it out.
RG: But let's stick to-- let me just get back-- I-- it makes sense to me that-- that a grand trine among the trans-Saturnians would be a proper vehicle for the unified manifestation of the three higher function(s). And that if you had-- that in an opposition, let's say Uranus Neptune opposition, I don't bel-- I-- I think there'd be a tre-- well we'd have--
TS: Power.
RG: There'd be a lot of power but I almost get the sense that there'd be a certain--
AD: Conflict between them.
RG: Conflict between them but it wouldn't be on the same level as the functions revealing themselves in a grand trine. [TS simultaneously, faint: (Ok.)] It's almost like they're brought into a conflict situation, and in that conflict they can't reveal themselves in-- in their hi-- in their pure way almost.
TS: What-- supposing [couple faint inaudible student words simultaneous with TS] you had a Mercury Jupiter [RG simultaneously: Yeah.] conjunction sextile one and trine the other.
RG: Yeah.
TS: Then, wouldn't you think that there would be a revelation of the power that those two had in them?
RG: Yeah, if you bring in a natal-- an aspect to join them maybe, a ego aspect.
RG/S(?) (faint): I don't know, we'll have to see (first)(--/.)
CDA (simultaneously): You know--
TS: (I mean) we have to try to [couple words inaudible]
RG (simultaneously): Find some examples.
CDA: Napoleon has been spoken of as being a man of destiny, that he was bringing in the World-- he was for-- a vehicle for the World-Idea to-- to manifest. And, I mean I could be missing a whole lot of what you're saying but, I wonder if you could look at the aspects in that way, that they are the World-Idea, the individual's co-operation with the World-Idea. And somehow those aspects are the-- the mode that [RG assents] the World-Idea is going to reveal itself in that person. So they would really be something [possibly one word inaudible] (destiny/destined).
RG: Yeah. Uh-hm.
CDA (simultaneously): Is that what you're saying, [RG simultaneously: Yeah, sort of.] is that what you've been saying?
RG: Yeah, yeah. I was just taking off on your point.
LR (faint): [one word inaudible] had an exact Neptune Uranus.
TS: Really?
AD: Well I can see we're not [TS: Ok.] exactly engendering flowers of intuition around here.
[students assent, very faint] (RG laughs)
CDA: Anthony, how-- how do you see the [one/two words inaudible]
VM (simultaneously): Let's get to the progressed trans-Saturnians to the progressed trans-Saturnians.
AD (simultaneously with CDA and VM): How about how you see something?
RG (to VM): (Oh/Well), very esoteric. (some laughter)
S (simultaneously): [one word inaudible]
CDA: [three/few words inaudible] you know from (the) [half/one word inaudible] I mean the (processes of attempting that).
AD: Excuses, excuses, excuses. (AD laughing) Go ahead ask the question, maybe someone (could/can) speak.
LR (simultaneously, faint): [three/few words inaudible] Uranus [couple words inaudible]
CDA (simultaneously): I just, you know-- it seems that with(--) the trans-Saturnian aspects are relating to some relation of the individual soul to the World-Idea. Is that correct-- incorrect so far?
VM: No, it would seem that that-- wouldn't that require the natal Chaldeans to trans-- to somehow be aspected by the trans-Saturnians.
CDA (simultaneously): Right, but first-- but first--
AD (simultaneously): First she's speaking about the relationship of the soul to the World-Idea.
CDA: Yeah.
VM: Oh ok.
CDA: Ok?
AD (simultaneously): Ok.
CDA: Ok?
AD (simultaneously): Sure, yeah.
CDA: Ok. Now the aspects between them is something else besides that relationship.
AD (simultaneously): Uh-hm.
CDA: Now, are those aspects the-- the state of the World-Idea revealing itself or is it the way--
AD (simultaneously): No, no, it's [CDA simultaneously: Ok.] the-- the state of the Nous in you.
CDA: Ok. So the particular mode that I am going to--
AD: That you're working them over here is in terms of that Intellectual knowledge(?/.)
CDA: The mode of Intellectual knowledge.
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, in other words I'm considering the trans-Saturnians as the-- the proper Intellection of your higher soul. That's the way your higher soul is functioning.
BS: You're talking about natal trans-Saturnians to natal trans-Saturnian(s)?
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, natal trans-Saturnian.
BS: And we're not speaking about the Chaldeans at this point(?/.) [TS, faint, possibly part of background: Far out.] [couple words inaudible]
CDA (simultaneously): So--
AD: I'm speaking just about the trans-Saturnians now. And I'm trying to s-- I'm trying to-- I'm trying to see that as the Intellection of your soul in this particular incarnation here and now. You remember he says, he says "We all possess, but few of us use." [Note: Plotinus, I.1.9 (fourth para), I.6.8 (last phrase of last sentence), V.3.3 (eleventh para).]
S: Hm.
AH: Just, what--
BS (simultaneously): We haven't determined how the aspects are working though. Well you keep speaking of it in terms of the Chaldean(s).
AD (simultaneously): Well, we know that if you have an opposition from a trans-Saturnian to a Chaldean we'll get some idea of how they're working, we're just trying to get some idea of what these trans-Saturnians are in themselves, and what the aspects between them is-- mean. Go ahead [one word inaudible]
AH (simultaneously): I think one-- one way of speculating, if you say that-- the notion of individuality plu-- plumbs the depths of all of this, I mean we're going to talk about an individual even at the-- the highest level. And if that-- if that's so, you might be able to approach it from the-- from an idea that we've discussed before of the different(--) various levels of subjectivity. And the way those levels of subjectivity relate to each other either in some sort of harmonic way, in the case of Napoleon where the grand trine is totally compatible with his ego structure, case of Vivekananda. Or, in the way that those levels of subjectivity are dissonant. If you saw it in those three ways, the three possibilities of subjectivity, I think that might be a-- a way of connecting it. So that you could (expect a--) the grand trine in Napoleon's chart as World-Mind.
AD (simultaneously): But-- yeah but you see that in Napoleon's chart, the way that grand trine related to his ego structure was through a couple of sextiles, you say?
TS: And a couple of oppositions.
AD: And a couple oppositions. So that's the way it related those two, alright.
AH: But insofar as it related in a compatible way, in other words, his life's action was in some way synchronous with what the-- what his destiny wanted him to do.
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, yeah, yeah, he certainly-- he s-- he seemed to make the right decisions at the right time, you know. Except for a few mistakes that he made, which I think-- which I think will show (that/the--) there was interferences in that relationship. But he seemed to know when to do something. He really won his battles in his mind before he ever won them on-- out in the field.
VM: For sure.
S: Sure.
AH: Well, I was just poking at the idea that if this is-- if there is an en-- an individual through all of these levels, we have to speak of a-- a subject [AD: Yeah.] through all of these levels. Or one who is.
AD(?) (faint): Yeah.
BS: (And) that would be the indi--
S (faint): Yeah.
AD: Yeah.
AH: So--
AD: But we're trying to conceive of how this highest subject is in himself. [VM(?) simultaneously: But now--] (And/But) not relating [LR simultaneously: But you can't conceive it.] him to the lower, maybe we can't, I don't know.
LR (simultaneously): You [VM simultaneously: Maybe you have to speak--] even said that the other day, it can't be conceived.
AH (simultaneously): He's a subject in potential. He doesn't [AD simultaneously: Yes.] do anything at that level.
AD: Well look, it's got to be meaningful that if you have a trine of the trans-Saturnians in your chart, [AH(?): Yeah.] alright(--/.) I mean to me it seems to be very significant(,) this man is fated for something, there's a destiny in this man's life.
AH: Yes.
LR: So you're talking about the World-Idea, right?
AD (simultaneously): I don't know how many times you're going to see a grand ti-- trine in somebody's chart and relating through that chart.
AH: But insofar as it's possible to speak of it abstractly as we are tonight, you would see that grand trine at the level of the highest subjectivity as a potential. And sometimes it's static at that level.
AD: Uh-hm.
AH: It moves in relationship to aspects--
AD (simultaneously): His Chaldeans, yeah.
S: Yeah.
VM: Actually when we talk--
BS: That's the individual soul in the Nous, right? Or (representative of/represented) the individual soul in the Nous. Then everything we see--
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, (representative of the Nous--) soul in the Nous, the way the soul understands the World-Idea [BS simultaneously: Everything--] and is going to be portrayed for you or work through your ego structure.
RC: [couple words inaudible] [VM simultaneously: But you know, I would--] it was a three-fold idea that they were objectifying too.
AD: Again?
RC: It was a three-fold theme that the-- that put all those people in uniform too, it was the liberty, the (fraternity--)
AD (simultaneously): Fraternity, equality [possibly one/two words inaudible]
VM (simultaneously): Equality, fraternity, yeah. [one/two inaudible student words simultaneous with VM] But you know, I wo-- it's--
RC (simultaneously): All those uniforms probably had that grand trine insignia.
VM (simultaneously): Yeah, they probably did. You know it seems to me that in these three--
AD (simultaneously): Do you think-- you think if we looked up the three ideas they would be liberty, equality, and fraternity?
VM (simultaneously): Wouldn't that be interesting.
S (simultaneously, faint): It'd be very interesting.
RG (simultaneously): Well sure.
TS: Got 'em?
AD: Got 'em?
S: Bo?
S (faint): Bo?
S (possibly part of background): Whose?
RG: Which three ideas?
S (simultaneously, faint, possibly part of background): [few words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): The three deg-- degrees representing the grand trine.
S (faint in background): (No.)
AH: What's the French flag, the tri-color or--
BC (simultaneously): The Neptune is 9 Virgo.
AH: (There you go.)
TS: Neptune is 9 Virgo?
[couple students assent, faint]
TS: 9 Virgo.
S: It's the glass blowers.
TS/S(?): [one word inaudible]
[few inaudible student words]
RG (simultaneously): No, no, that's 9 Cancer. [Note: Glass blowers is 9 Leo.]
Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Virgo 9, TS reading]: "An earnest but bizarre looking individual is painting on a canvas; his art is [AS simultaneously: 9 Virgo?] futuristic and unintelligible." (student laughing)
LR (faint): Avery.
TS: See here.
Marc Edmund Jones [The Sabian Symbols in Astrology, Virgo 9, TS reading]: "[This is a] symbol of the originality an individual must show in any true assertion of himself, and of the importance of the aesthetic or [more] spiritual areas of his experience. [VM: Liberty. (one/two words inaudible)] [It is] only through an identifiable and personal uniqueness that man is able to establish himself among his fellows, and the risk he takes is that if-- if this becomes too extreme [LR: Wait.] it may repel rather than attract."
LR: This one's better for that-- for this. Sometimes these are less psychological, he says--
Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Virgo 9, LR reading]: "[This is a] symbol of the original genius of every human soul or the aim of each individual to leave his own stamp upon the world."
AD: Which one is that?
TS: The original interpretation.
LR: This-- sometimes [RG/S(?) simultaneously: I'd say the original (one/two words inaudible)] these are better, less psycholo--
AD (simultaneously): Alright then read (that--) read them.
LR: Well but which one is-- which planet was that?
TS: That's Neptune.
S: Neptune.
LR: Ok. You want to hear that again?
BS(?): Yeah.
AD (simultaneously): Please.
Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Virgo 9, LR reading]: "[This is a] symbol of the original genius of every human soul or the aim of each individual to leave his own stamp upon the world."
LR: This is also Anthony the book where it says about PB's conjunction that this man will light up-- this degree lights up the entire universe. It's from this, not the other Jones. This is a lot less psychological.
AD (simultaneously): The originals(./?)
[RG assents]
LR (simultaneously): The originals are lot less psychological.
S(?) (faint): Uh-hm.
RG: These are not the originals.
LR: Well, whichever [couple inaudible RG words simultaneous with LR] they are.
RG (faint): Right.
VM: Whichever generation.
LR: Ok, what's the next thing?
AD: What are the originals Dickie, the ones in the book?
RG: That's what he says.
AD: That's what he says but it certainly doesn't look like.
TS: No.
RG: No, no, he says these are elaborations that they [TS/S(?) assents] did after they got the original impressions.
AD: Yeah, he [one/two inaudible student words simultaneous with AD] says that in [AS simultaneously: He says that in--] the preface to that book.
LR (simultaneously): No, no, not the symbol, I'm talking about the interpretation.
RG (simultaneously): Right, right, yeah.
[few inaudible student words, sounds like part of background]
AD (possibly part of background): (Neptune.)
RG: Oh ok.
TS (faint, possibly part of background): [few words inaudible]
RG (simultaneously): This is the original interpretation(./?)
TS (faint): All original, (yeah).
RG: Oh yeah? Ok, good.
RC (faint in background): What do you think, (Paul)?
TS: What's the next (pair)?
LR (simultaneously): What's the next planet?
BC (simultaneously): 12 Taurus, Uranus.
LR (simultaneously): Pardon me?
BC: 12 Taurus.
LR: That's Uranus?
S: Yeah.
AD: Possibility.
[TS talking in background for few seconds as class continues]
VM: See that's three degrees (different).
BC: Yeah, it's three, three, and five.
RG: Great [few words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Three, three, and five?
VM: Oh that's a pretty wide grand trine.
S: (Right. Three) degrees?
Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Taurus 12, LR reading (simultaneously with S above)]: "A quite youthful young couple is walking down a busy street, stopping to peer into every window with joyful glee."
TS: This is which, the Uranus?
LR: Yeah.
Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Taurus 12, LR reading]: "This [student assents] is a symbol of the sheer inner interest in outer life by means of which all [the] great achievements of experience have their first and final expression. [Positively it is a degree of] projective consciousness…"
[short pause]
LR: That's fraternity.
TS: It's interesting (in this here), it doesn't seem to be liberty but [S simultaneously: No.] here it says--
Marc Edmund Jones [The Sabian Symbols in Astrology, Taurus 12, TS reading]: "[This is a] symbol of [human imagination as] the real corrective for man's experience, enabling each individual to know in advance whether the choices he will make are in line with his desires."
S (faint): [one/two words inaudible]
TS: Remember that thing that it seemed that-- (it was) said that he was a-- wasn't it said that he was an initiate?
[student assents, very faint]
AD: Yeah, but that was prior.
LR: That was in Egypt?
AD: That was in a previous life.
TS: Oh.
LR: But he also had the experience in Egypt where [AD simultaneously: Uh-hm.] he wouldn't talk to his men when he came out and he wouldn't say anything that happened after (running) to the Great Pyramid.
Marc Edmund Jones [The Sabian Symbols in Astrology, Taurus 12, TS reading]: "…[TS adds: (the/an)] examination of life's possibilities [TS reads: possibility], and that-- and that some latent phase of self-awareness…"
AD (simultaneously): It should be obvious Tim, huh? That he had an initiation.
TS: Yes I-- I'd like to do a-- a series of charts one day.
LR: What's the third one?
BC: 14 Capricorn.
LR: That's Pluto?
BC: (Yep/Yes).
AD: Uh--
LR: I know this one.
[few seconds of mostly inaudible background student talking]
Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Capricorn 14, LR reading]: "A vast pile of Mayan ruins in tropical America discloses a perfectly preserved bas-relief carved in the granite. This is a symbol of the integrity of man's major works or of the power that man possesses to leave behind him a permanent record of his achievements."
Marc Edmund Jones [The Sabian Symbols in Astrology, Capricorn 14, TS reading]: "An ancient bas-relief…"
TS/S(?): [couple words inaudible]
[flipping of pages]
LR: REPUTATION.
TS: He says FOUNDATION here.
S: (What are they--)
[one/two inaudible student words in background, very faint]
TS/S(?) (simultaneously, very faint, part of background): More notion of power?
[13¼ second pause]
TS (faint): (I will admit, I don't know.)
S (very faint in background): Alright Tim.
[short pause]
LR: But this is the level you're calling supra-reflective.
TS: It seems like it's almost a picture of the inner man, those three together.
VM: But you know, when you speak about just the trans-- trans-Saturnians like this without any reference to any natal planets, it seems to me that you're almost speaking about the Intellectual Soul of the Earth or something like that. Because there really isn't any reference to an individual when you speak about it in abstraction from any natal pos-- planets. So it's almost like the part--
AD (simultaneously): Well that's-- that's the way I'm trying to think of it (here). [VM simultaneously: It's almost like the partic--] That's the way I'm trying to think of it (here/Vic).
LR (simultaneously, faint): (Destiny.)
VM: Ok.
AD: And the way that's going to affect the individual. If you want to think of it as the Intellection of the Earth, fine, alright, the Soul's Intellection, [student assents, faint] the-- the Soul of the [VM simultaneously: Ok.] Earth's Intellection of its-- the idea of itself. But then this is going to [VM simultaneously: Well-- no, I understand.] be imposed on an individual, [VM simultaneously: I understand but--] alright. So I'm try-- maybe that's even better to say it that way.
VM (simultaneously): Well see I liked saying it that way 'cause it really gets rid of any individuals [AD simultaneously: Yeah.] and you see it as a planetary configuration.
AD (simultaneously): And so-- and so you're trying to-- to study those ideas in isolation.
VM: Right.
AD: I think it's-- I think it's too difficult (Vic).
VM: It's hard.
AD: I-- I don't even think we have enough charts to work with.
TS: We-- we can go through the ones-- [one word inaudible] (didn't he) just go through it? Mo-- many of the people we've done so far have an aspect between two of them.
AD: Yeah. [TS simultaneously: We'd have to--] Well, you can see this here because again, going back to Vic's remark, alright, you remember when PB speaks about the Gurukula. And that means that this man has a certain destiny, alright.
TS: Yeah.
AD: That means he's been (given/given) this assignment, and it's got to be indicated somehow.
TS: Well maybe that grand trine (is) part of that [one/two words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, if you notice you said two of three that you studied had grand trines. And there were grand trines of the trans-Saturnians or mixed?
TS: Mixed.
AD: Mixed?
TS: Ramakrishna has a grand trine. Actually three(--/.) well--
AD: Sai Baba had a--
TS: Sai Baba has a grand trine. Sai Baba has a grand trine and it only has one trans-Saturnian in it. It's I think Sun Saturn Pluto, I think. I'll have-- oh I have it.
VM/S(?) (simultaneously): [one/two words inaudible]
VM (faint, sounds like part of background): Ok, so the [one/couple words inaudible] (got creamer).
TS: Um--
AD: And Ramakrishna? Did he have a tr-- did have a trans-Saturnian in that?
S (faint): Uranus.
TS: I'll look.
AD: (Uranus?)
BC(?) (simultaneously, faint): (You may not believe) (him/it).
BC: Not real close.
TS: What?
S (faint): (Nice.)
AD (simultaneously): Not real close?
TS/S(?) (faint): (Amazing.)
BC (simultaneously): [few words inaudible]
[flipping of pages]
TS: Ramakrishna.
AS: Six degrees.
LR (very faint in background): (Easy.)
AD: [couple words inaudible]
AS: Seven degrees, [couple inaudible RC words simultaneous with AS] within seven.
AD: It's within seven then it's operative.
[student assents, faint]
TS: Ramakrishna had--
RG: (Uranus square) one degree.
BC (simultaneously): (So you have) Saturn Moon Mercury(./?)
TS: Uranus is at 0 and-- [flipping pages] yeah it's-- he has-- no he has a [one/two inaudible student words simultaneous with TS] four degree trine, five degree trine, four-- five degree trine between Uranus and Saturn. And uh--
S (faint): (Tim--)
S (faint): [one word inaudible]
TS: So that would be certainly operative. So he has a Saturn Jupiter Uranus Mercury Moon grand trine in water.
AD (simultaneously): A water trine, yeah.
TS: Ok. Sai Baba-- I've gotta get him out of here.
VM: What's he doing in there?
TS: Huh?
VM: What's Sai Baba doing in there? (VM laughing)
TS: He's left over from Switzerland. [TS looking through charts] Ramana, and somebody else [one word inaudible] This (one's) of PB.
S (very faint whisper): (Do that.)
TS (very faint): [couple words inaudible]
AD: Tim, it's what I suspected, you don't have enough factual and material information from charts, you know, to be able to work out some of these problems.
VM: It's very tough.
TS (faint to himself): Sun--
VM: I would think this would tie in with progress-- not the progressions, the progressed-- the Nodes. Gee I can't say it. You know, every 27,000 years--
S: Precession.
RG: Precession of the equinox.
VM (simultaneously): The precession of the equinoxes I would suspect would be tied in with this-- with this particular group. Maybe they're progressed transits to progressed-- progressed trans-- (transier/trans)-Saturnians to PT's. (bit of laughter) So global.
RG: Yeah. (There's something) through this book though which-- Anthony, this other book of charts that has a lot of more contemporary people. It seems people with very close squares or oppositions between the trans-Saturnian(s) are very active, like leaders in the world. They're very extroverted political (views), they have a lot of political action to the-- rather than the trines which tend to be more (inwardly). It's like the square and the opposition in the trans-Saturnian demands externalization in the world, there's a destiny there.
AD: Yeah.
RG: But it seems extroverted.
AD: And the trines seem to be more introverted to you?
RG (simultaneously): More [one word inaudible] more-- yeah, more the capacity for the inner regulation. (I-- I don't know).
IF: There is particular part about-- which was already brought up before that, Uranus Neptune opposition that's around 1906.
S: Yeah (generally).
IF: Within a world-- within (the/a) world at that time the-- all the revolutions of the-- on the social level started.
AH/AD(?): Makes sense.
IF (simultaneously): And what happened within that time it's-- was the first attempt or the, you know-- like of course, you know, there's French Revolution and so on but it's a different kind of manifestation to the Earth consciousness of how to view the government. [AH assents, faint] And, you know, nowadays [few words inaudible] like, you know, who is paying so much attention anymore to [student assents] South American revolution. But, when in 1905 the whole thing started--
RG (simultaneously): When was the first Russian revolution?
IF: 1905. And then [AD talking in background simultaneous with IF, few words inaudible] when a trine ap-- appeared it was second world war.
AD: Yeah.
IF: So it's [TS simultaneously: Hm.] a completely different generation [AD whispering/talking in background simultaneous with IF, inaudible, flipping of pages] assimilating an idea which was syste-- you know, [one word inaudible] (into) the Earth consciousness, [student assents] 'cause it doesn't matter (where) you're in Germany, Russia, Poland or America, you have to assimilate idea of that world war, which is again how-- destruction had to be internalized, the way [student assents] he says, the introversion (of) the whole happening in a very different way. So it's kind of as if that's a first time the possibility of shaping (and intuiting) ideas was presenting, I mean (denial) to certain kind of-- in order [LR simultaneously: Collective.] to-- to understand what (will) is all about, and in order to-- for the Earth's consciousness to understand it, it had to be in such a tremendously overpowering manifestation of a destruction.
AD (very faint, possibly part of background): This trine seems-- [TS: Mm.] triangle, it seems like the trine is the most basic symbol (in our chart).
TS (simultaneously): Yeah. So that would be-- you know, if it was-- if you had that natally, then there would be a certain kind of configuration that would be in-- that one would have to come into relationship to. It would take the lifetime to work out. If it was a transiting trans-Saturnian to the transiting trans-Saturnian that simply would be the prevalent global understanding that was being required to be worked out at some-- [IF assents] it would influence the individual's growth or development. It's like if you see a person is coming up with some idea of-- well like, in Napoleon's time perhaps you get a-- an idea of social equality. With the grand trine in the sky it might mean something different than if you get an idea of social equality and there's Uranus Neptune opposition. One gets you (Napoleonite) France and the other gives you Russia, Communist Russia. Same idea as, you know, freeing the serfs but, [student assents, faint] slightly different effect. Now maybe that would be part of that [RG assents] as well.
AD: There's one thing I've noticed in just looking at the pictures, alright. If you got a grand trine, that's really dominating. Let me show (you/him)-- let me show you the pictures.
S (faint in background): (I'm excited.)
AD: Just-- just looking at pictures, make out we're in kindergarten, ok? [student assents] That's Ramakrishna, alright, grand trine.
VM: Could you hold it up a little higher, (was/or is) that possible? Thank you.
AD: Ramakrishna, grand trine. See how it dominates the chart?
RG (very faint): (No doubt.)
VM: Uh-hm.
AH: (Sort of.)
AD: Santayana. Now just look at the-- just look for the-- the grand trine, the triangle.
S (faint, possibly part of background): [one word inaudible] (you think that?)
AD: Vivekananda. Well he was a Master. [one/two inaudible student words simultaneous with AD] Vivekananda, they're two triangles like-- Wagner.
[student assents, very faint]
RG(?) (faint): A grand sextile.
AD: Yeah they-- they were in front, huh?
TS: You know, I did the grand sextile.
AD: Gandhi. [RG simultaneously, faint: (When was this?)] [bit of inaudible student talking in background simultaneous with AD] He had a trine, how dominant. Emerson, triangle. But it's not a trine, it's not a grand trine. But it seems to be approaching that. Emerson, [flipping through charts] (hits him) again. You hit Gandhi you got this big [one/two inaudible student words simultaneous with AD] triangle. Hubbard. Look at that triangle.
AS (simultaneously): L. Ron Hubbard?
AD: Yeah.
VM (simultaneously): Who is this?
TS (faint): No, Elbert.
S: Elbert Hubbard.
VM: Elbert Hubbard.
AD: Ron Hubbard.
VM: No, no [one/two words inaudible] (bit of laughter, student words)
TS: He has a grand cross. L. Ron Hubbard has a grand cross.
VM: Oh does he?
TS: Elbert has the grand trine.
AD: Carl Jung. Small triangle. Well look (up/at) the lack of integration. No wonder it was a chief preoccupation with him. Napoleon, look at this trine, the way it dominates the chart. I mean just looking at a picture thing, you know, seems like-- When you look at something like this [diagram] it doesn't seem that anything's formed, you know, but you look at something with a grand trine, alright, [student assents, faint] and it seems to be symbolic of the Self.
AS (faint): (Yeah.)
S (very faint): Yeah [one/two words inaudible]
VM: But now you're speaking about grand trines not necessarily [AD simultaneously: Radhakrish-- Ramakrishna.] just among the trans-Saturnians.
AD: Huh?
[few seconds of background student talking as class continues]
VM: You're speaking about grand trines in general, not necessarily just among the trans-Saturnians.
AD (simultaneously): Yeah. It seems-- it seems that the grand trine, alright, is symbolic of the Self. Santayana, ok? I don't know(,) if diagrams or pictures mean anything. [short pause] So we're back to trying to understand how geometrical forms [RG assents] project themselves.
RG/S(?) (faint): (Not necessarily.)
RG: He'll need the grand sextile. And they always have the two grand trines together [couple inaudible AD whispers in background simultaneous with RG] within the six-pointed star.
[background noises]
S (faint): Oh yeah?
S (faint, possibly part of background): We don't have [possibly one word inaudible]
TS: We know one, I was telling Richard.
AD: Who was that?
TS: Kind David.
AD: Kind David?
TS: In the Bible. [one/two words inaudible]
VM (simultaneously): How did you get his horoscope?
AS: Richard Nowogrodzki has one.
S: Richard Nowo--
[few students at once, few words inaudible]
AD: Where'd he get it, (hm)?
LR: The chart, Richard's chart.
TS (simultaneously): Where did he get-- where'd he get the chart for Kind David?
AS: No, Richard (No--) Nowogrodzki-- (laughter, student words) Richard Nowogrodzki has a very [LR simultaneously, faint: He has a--] close grand sextile.
LR (faint): Grand sextile.
AS: Just [S simultaneously: (couple words inaudible) everything.] [couple/few words inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): [few words inaudible]
TS (simultaneously): He-- I mean literally for David from the Bible though who-- it did-- did have one as far as we could figure out. A Biblical scholar came to me at a conference, a Bibl-- Biblical scholar and somewhat crackpot astrologer I should say. (some laughter) But--
S: In Atlanta, Tim?
TS (simultaneously): Yeah. Uh--
VM: But you know, it's very-- that's a very difficult thing, they can't even decide when Christ was born let alone David.
TS (simultaneously): Oh that-- no but this-- no there-- because he [VM simultaneously: It's easier, right?] was (born--) 'cause he was in some lineage, they had-- he came up with it, he says "Either this day November 3rd or November 27th, 1135 BC" he says, "but run off the chart." I ran off the chart for one of them and it was not much, I looked at the other one, it was just-- it was a perfect grand sextile or Star of David.
RG: Um-hm. Amazing. (RG laughs a bit)
VM: Far out.
TS: Yeah. (RG laughing)
VM: Well we have to keep an eye on Nowogrodzki. (laughter, AD laughing)
TS: Jim Beaman had one also so--
VM (simultaneously): Uh-oh. (laughter)
S (faint, possibly part of background): [couple words inaudible]
[short pause with few faint inaudible student words]
[few seconds of inaudible background student talking as class continues]
TS: You want to hear some more fairytales, (so we could) (seize/cease)--
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
TS: Let me-- maybe we should just go through the [AD: Go ahead.] fairytales (very briefly). So we've said that the-- the trans-Saturnian-- transiting trans-Saturnian to the natal trans-Saturnians would be something about the way--
(Side 1 of original cassette tape digitized as 1982 1122a Ends; Side 2 Begins)
TS: --they have, ok? Progressed trans-Saturnian to progressed trans-Saturnian is the general process of reasoning that occurs within the soul, or the general-- the evolved form of (the) knowledge I should say, not rational but say knowledge. Ok, so that would be all mine-- six of those guys. (Now), I can read you the fairytales I wrote for the other nine with the little--
S (faint): Do you have any true stories instead of (fairytales)? (laughter)
AD: True confessions?
TS: What?
AD: True confessions?
S (faint): Either a true story [couple words inaudible]
TS (simultaneously): Yeah. [couple inaudible student words simultaneous with TS] (It was just) if you have to consult with someone capable of logical thought then there's Avery, I--
AD (simultaneously): It's alright Tim, no, no, Tim it's alright, it's very good I mean-- to even just put the spade into the ground, into this ground. Let's-- let's hear a few more. [TS simultaneously: Ok well--] Because this is-- this is like-- you-- do you ever put a pitchfork into frozen ground? (bit of laughter) Let's hear-- [TS simultaneously, faint: Ok.] let's get some more.
S: Yeah.
TS: Ok I'm going to do these-- this block of nine now [diagram].
AD: Alright, which way(--/,) across or down?
TS (simultaneously): Across and-- straight across.
AD: Alright, natal Chaldeans to natal transits?
TS: Na-- natal Chaldean to natal trans-Saturnian. That's a-- that would be this one [diagram].
AD: Yeah.
TS: Well, that one it seems to be the thing that we had worked out before, that that would be the actual modality of the rational soul would be created through that, the-- [sounds like AS assents, very faint] the soul's knowledge of the animate would be another way I would want to put it, the rational soul's contemplation or reading off of the animate.
[short pause]
AD: Go ahead Tim because [TS, faint: Ok.] we won't have time to discuss [TS simultaneously: Right.] them, but (we/we'll) get acquainted with them and we'll start-- start working on (one) [one/two words inaudible] Go ahead with the next one.
TS: It'd be tra-- well let's see here, I don't know what I want to do with this.
VM: Within C(-)TT.
TS: Yeah, ok, the transiting trans-Saturnians to the natal Chaldean(./--) [to himself, faint: (That's/What's) CT(./?) Yeah, ok.] That I thought of as being the way in which the World-Idea would impact the ego.
VM: Yeah.
TS: Ok?
VM: That's good, that's I thought was relatively easy.
TS (simultaneously): Transiting trans-Saturnians [RG/VM(?) assents] influencing the natal Chaldeans, that tho-- [VM assents, very faint] ok. And the progressed trans-Saturnians to the natal Chaldeans would be the way in which the growth of rationality ref-- was reflected into or related to the ego. So that there was actually a change, in other words-- (you know), if you had the progressed trans-Saturnians there might actually be a whole different orientation towards the way in which you understood, felt, or willed the ego.
RC: You think that might be related to that higher consciousness we spoke of in terms of how-- (you know), you said certain higher consciousness could objectify the ego [one/two words inaudible]
TS: Yeah, if it was going to take place.
RC: The ego could be made a higher-- could be made an object to a higher type of consciousness. This would give you that higher perspective on your own ego?
RG: Oh but I think that can come through a natal aspect, this is an extremely rare occurrence if you could be--
TS (simultaneously): No, it would actually be pr--
RG: A progressed trans-Saturnian to a natal Chaldean is very rare.
TS: Oh [one/two words inaudible] being different from the natal it would very rare.
RG: Yeah, right.
TS: But it would actually--
LR: It would make the natal more [couple/few words inaudible]
RG (simultaneously): But I don't say why his understanding doesn't apply to a natal aspect.
TS: Oh ok, that may be too true-- true too, I just said that-- what I meant was that, suppose that you have a natal Uranus Venus trine, ok, got a natal Uranus Venus trine. Ok now, there's a certain way in which I would know my feeling function, [RG assents, faint] my psychosomatic. But supposing that changed degrees, there would be a shift in the way in which I knew that feeling function.
RG (faint): Right.
TS: Ok?
RG: Yeah.
TS: That's all I think [RG and VM assent] [one/two words inaudible] that I was seeing here. So let's see. Now I'm going to do this middle column [diagram], the middle three that-- all of them having to do with the transiting Chaldeans. So the transiting Chaldean to the natal trans-Saturnians. Transiting Chaldeans [S: Yeah, to the natal.] to the natal trans-Saturnians, [student assents, faint] ok. Nature's activation of the soul's Intellection.
VM (faint): Oh that's nice.
TS: Ok. The "Nature's activation" being the transiting Chaldean, "of the soul's Intellection" the natal trans-Saturnians.
VM: Uh-hm.
[student assents, very faint]
TS: So, in other words, transiting Jupiter comes by and hits Uranus and suddenly you are ins-- you have certain aspiration, coming from the Jupiter, to try to experience something of the higher knower within you.
LR: But those would be the things that very often would kick off something larger that's going on.
TS: Yeah.
LR: In o-- like, you get a Uranus transit and it's not till that Chaldean hits one of those that it actually [LR snaps fingers] gets triggered, that would be your nature which is getting triggered.
TS (simultaneously): Yeah. You'd know where to look.
VM: Uh-hm.
S: Uh-hm.
TS: I mean, this whole thing is just one approach and we may want to modify it.
AD (simultaneously): Alright, go ahead, read them off, good.
TS: Transiting Chaldeans to the transiting trans-Saturnians, ok.
S: Flood(s).
RG (simultaneously): Nature floods with a meaning. (RG laughs)
S: (Alright.)
RG/S(?): Floods that have meaning. (laughter, student words)
TS: Floods with-- (more laughter)
VM: Oh that's good.
TS: (When) you're sitting in some (naughty) car is revealed with its tires (uh--) (laughter)
S: No.
TS: I thought of that as Nature's unfoldment of the World-Idea for [couple words inaudible]
RG/S(?): Yeah a flood. (bit of laughter)
S (faint): [couple words inaudible]
VM: Yeah.
TS: Yeah, floods with [student assents] meaning, ok. (RG laughing)
S: Yeah.
VM: No it's good.
TS: Transiting Chaldeans to the progressed trans-Saturnians. (bit of laughter)
LR: What's that one? (laughter)
S (amidst laughter): [few words inaudible]
TS: Chaldeans to the progressed trans-Saturnians, ok.
S: I'm sorry Tim, run that by me.
TS: TC-PT.
VM (simultaneously): TC-PT, it's kind of straight.
S (simultaneously, faint): Yeah, right there in his bottom column.
TS: Yeah, so we'll--
AD: Go ahead.
TS: Ok. Nature's stimulation or activation of the developed rationality that's in the soul. The progressed transits have-- progressed trans-Saturnians being what changes or [one/two words inaudible]
VM (simultaneously): Accumulated wisdom or something.
TS: Yeah, or extended wisdom of the higher knower and how that's being brought into play as well as the natal condition.
VM: Yeah.
TS: Now those would be-- these would be of course in most cases-- well, I'll just keep going over [student assents] them. [VM(?), faint: Sweet.] Ok, the last three then-- oh, we'll do the progressed Chaldean. Where have they gone? Here they are. Progressed Chaldean to the natal trans-Saturnian. [RG assents] Progressed Chal-- so like if you have progressed Moon on natal Uranus, [students assent] ok.
RG (simultaneously, faint): Yeah, progressed Saturn.
TS: Or progressed Sun on Uranus.
RG (faint): Uh-hm.
TS: Progressed Chaldean on natal trans-Saturnian. The ego's understanding of the soul's Intellection.
RG: Yeah those are huge aspects.
LR (simultaneously): Those are huge.
RG: I mean [student assents] progre-- yeah, those are very major progressions.
TS: Ok. So there I took it to be instead of Nature stimulating that soul's Intellection which might be called forth, now you understand what's going on (if you were--)
LR (simultaneously): Or let's say that ego's receptivity to--
TS: Assimilation of that soul's Intellection.
[student assents, faint]
VM (simultaneously): Right.
RG: Uh-hm.
TS: Progressed Chaldean to transiting trans-Saturnian. So that would be like transiting Pluto hitting your progressed Venus. Or your tran-- yeah. The sou-- the ego's understanding of the World-Idea. In other words, due to the-- to-- we had the progressed Chaldeans so there's a certain evolution, the ego has matured a little bit, and so now when there is a Uranus aspect or Uranus influx, your ability to understand what is being manifested has changed a little bit, the ability to recognize what the World-Idea is doing.
[student assents, very faint]
VM: Uh-hm.
TS: So, a political event occurs when you're 12 it means nothing, you know. When you're 35 it means a lot, when you're 65 it means nothing.
RG(?): Right.
[student assents]
VM: If you've learned something. (some laughter)
TS: Um--
[student assents, faint]
S (faint): [couple words inaudible]
TS: And last here, the progressed Chaldean to the progressed trans-Saturnian.
S: Uh-hm.
TS: The-- this one I thought of as the ego's understanding of the growth occurring in the soul. Or, vice versa. The soul's understanding of the growth occurring in the ego. It's a-- it's-- there-- I was thinking of them both as a certain kind of growth or understanding.
[short pause]
VM: Now I understand why Anthony said you're gonna be busy for a while.
S (faint): Uh-hm.
AD: Yeah.
S: [couple/three words inaudible] (bit of laughter)
S (faint): [one/two words inaudible] poor baby.
TS/S(?): Are you--
AD: Tim, one speculative [TS simultaneously: Sure.] question before we call it quits. Tell me, do you think it at all possible that we should read progressions backwards?
VM: You mean to a previous life [student assents] Anthony?
AD: No.
LR (simultaneously): Oh you mean when the man has died, start with where it left off and work back to the natal.
AD (simultaneously): And work backward.
LR: I gotcha.
VM: I don't understand it just geometrically.
AD (simultaneously): Let's say you have the Sun at 1 degree Aries, ok.
VM (simultaneously): Right.
LR: We do (though).
AD (simultaneously): And you die when you're fifty.
VM: Ok.
AD: Alright. Sun is in 20 degrees Taurus.
VM: Right.
AD: Now to get an understanding of that Sun in 1 degree Aries, should you read back from 20 degrees Taurus to the 1 Aries? [short pause] Did you ever try reading a chart like that to see if it made any sense? 'Cause I'm still having a problem trying to understand the nature, you know, of a natal planet to a progressed planet.
TS: We're on the second box, (right)? (TS laughs, some laughter) I-- I've never been able to hold that many Sabian symbols in my mind at once, I mean, to do the progressed Sun would mean holding sixty or seventy.
AD (simultaneously): Well try the Saturn.
TS: The progressed Saturn would be a little more [RG assents, faint] conceivable.
LR: We did that with Jung.
RG (simultaneously): We did that with Jung, we did that with Jung, [few inaudible student words simultaneous with RG, faint] we looked at his [TS simultaneously: I--] [couple/three words inaudible]
AD: Do you remember how it was?
RG: Yeah, it [LR simultaneously: Yeah.] went pretty well. We thought [couple/three words inaudible] (RG laughing, some laughter)
S (amidst laughter): Yeah.
AD: Did he have a retrograde Saturn, I don't remember, or (not)?
TS (simultaneously): Yes.
RG (simultaneously): Yes he did.
LR: He did. He had a retrograde [RG assents] Saturn and we read backwards. Right?
RG: No, we thought we saw meaning, changes in meaning [one/two words inaudible]
S (simultaneously): [one/two words inaudible]
TS: Well we saw-- well-- I think-- I don't know whether I would see it as being backwards or-- I mean in other words, (avoiding/voiding)(--) having to read the totality of (it).
AD: Yeah, the language is inaccurate right now, (uh-uh)(--/.) What I'm trying to express is like the-- is the entirety or the totality of the meaning of life, that aspect of life which we call Saturn--does that come from reading let's say Saturn from 10 degrees Aries all the way back to 1 degree Aries and now we know what that 1 degree Aries means, alright. It's like you add up all these degrees and the meaning of the 1 degree Aries comes out. Whereas if you do it the reverse, alright, you can't do that. And yet it seems that the fundamental meaning of the person's life (is/is) the meanings he's born with.
RG: Uh-hm.
VM: I see.
RG: Yeah.
IF: But what you're saying that we're learning whole life what that fundamental meaning is and when we are born we are not 1 degree Aries anyway, we are-- we have [AD simultaneously: Yeah.] to live all those fifty, [AD simultaneously: It's like-- it's like it's--] seventy years until we start to realize what Aries is.
AD (simultaneously): Yeah, it's like it's growing towards that meaning. And that it's towards the end of a person's life, alright, that he understand what that meaning is. This might be wrong, dead wrong, I mean-- you know, from a numerical point of view the whole thing is crazy, from a mathematical point of view.
VM: That's not the issue. (VM laughing a bit)
AH: If you look at the forward motion of the progression as the events of the life, you can look at it in a very abstract way as like-- like a place to stand or a perspective by which one could recognize the life meaning as germinal in the natal degree.
VM: Anthony, what you're saying--
S (faint): Oh I'm sorry.
AD: Yeah I think he may have something, that's a possibility. Forward motion, forward motion would indicate one thing, alright, which would be different. In other words, what I think he's saying is that there might be two or three different ways of reading this relationship.
VM: You know Anthony what you're saying reminds me of a-- like when PB writes about the after-death experience where major significant events of the life are lived but in a reverse--
AD: Order.
VM: --order, and that almost sounds like the way you're saying well, I'm gonna now review this guy's life backwards until I can really understand the meaning of let's say that natal [student assents] trans-Saturnian.
AD: Yeah.
VM: It just-- I don't know.
AD: On the other hand, alright, there was Plazo-- Plato's notion that the soul before it in-- it incarnates, [VM: Had all this knowledge.] it's a forward view of the [RG assents, faint] life to be lived. [students assent, faint] So maybe there's two meanings here that have to be related [students assent, faint] somehow. I didn't mean to disrupt what Tim was doing, I think-- I think it's pretty good Tim. At any rate, all we have to do is get our pitchfork out and start digging.
S (faint): (You're welcome.)
AD: Thanks a lot Tim. [TS simultaneously: (That was ok?)] I'll see if I can come up with some ideas.
TS: On that, you know, what's his-- Jones. Do you remember any of that? There was a thing he-- he has seven different stages according to the progressed motion of the planet. And it starts out-- it has to do with-- very often the progressed Mercury will do [drawing] something like this. Progressed Mercury will go forward, retrograde, and ret-- dir-- turn re-- direct, come back to the natal position and move forward past it during a lifetime.
AD: Uh-hm.
TS: He worked out-- he had an idea that all-- all of those different phases were necessary for a complete evolution of that planet.
S: Hm.
AD: Complete evolution?
TS: (Say like), where the [drawing] person's Mercury-- this is a theory that I was-- that someone gave a lecture on in Chicago, that you start with the progr-- just for the progressed Mercury as a kind of way-- for the completion evolution of the understanding, it had to go through all of these seven motions. [AD and student assent, very faint] Ok, that it to say, [drawing/writing] one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, the sixth being conjunction its natal place. Ok, now that's-- that's-- Jones evidently just was trying to understand something about a difference between, you know, forward, a retrograde, you know-- and a retrograde motion by progression, and he had some idea of some (of the inner) [one word inaudible]
AD (simultaneously): I'm not going to get (anywhere but) motion.
TS: Ok, well--
S: Tim--
[Audio File 1982 1122a Ends]
1982 11/22 V12a: CLASS: Astrology; Theory. Copyright 2023 Wisdom's Goldenrod p. iii