Wednesday, August 31st, 1983

CLASS at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY

with Anthony Damiani (AD)

August 31, 1983

PB PARAS; MEDITATION

TOPIC: PB Paras

SUBJECT: Meditation

SUBSUBJECTS: Concentration, Contemplation, Overself, Stillness, Ego, Philosophic Mystic, Sage

CONTENTS:

THE SECOND STAGE (MEDITATION) AND THE THIRD STAGE (CONTEMPLATION)

CONTEMPLATION: DEPRIVE YOURSELF COMPLETELY OF ANY MENTAL FUNCTIONING AND YOU'RE IMMEDIATELY BORN INTO THE WORLD OF BEING

PB PARAS ON MEDITATION

IF YOU STOP THINKING AT THE FIRST LEVEL (CONCENTRATION), THE IMPULSES THAT WILL COME INTO YOU WILL BE FROM YOUR OWN PSYCHE

WHAT SEEMS LIKE AN INTENSIFICATION OF THE WILL IN MEDITATION IS ACTUALLY AN INFLUX OF GRACE

"SPIRITUAL DRYNESSES ARE INTENDED TO PURIFY THE CHARACTER, FORTIFY THE WILL, AND DETACH MEN FROM THE EGO"

"EVERY STATE OTHER THAN PERFECT STILLNESS IS A MANIFESTATION OF THE EGO"

PB PARAS ON MEDITATION

ATTENTION INTROSPECTING UPON ITSELF HAS THE GREATEST DIFFICULTY DISTINGUISHING THAT FROM THINKING ABOUT ITSELF

"MEDITATION IS ACHIEVED IF THE CONCENTRATED MIND IS USED TO REFLECT ON THE OVERSELF OR THE WAY TO IT"

ANYTIME YOU FEEL A PULL COMING FROM THE HEART, A MELTING SENSATION, A HEIGHTENING OF INTENSE CONCENTRATION, DROP WHATEVER YOU'RE DOING AND JUST LET IT LEAD YOU

IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE OVERSELF, IT WILL START TO GUIDE AND ELEVATE YOUR THINKING ABOUT IT

CONSTANT MEDITATION ON THE OVERSELF BRINGS YOU INTO RELATIONSHIP WITH IT

IN MEDITATION, AFTER YOU'VE LEFT BEHIND THE BODY-THOUGHT, YOU WILL PENETRATE DEEPER AND DEEPER, BUT IT GETS DARKER AND DARKER

THE FIVE STAGES OF THE PHILOSOPHICAL METHOD

THE PHILOSOPHIC SAGE HAS ACHIEVED IDENTITY WITH THE ALL-CONSCIOUSNESS AND THEN APPLIES THAT UNDERSTANDING TO THE PARTICULAR SITUATION THAT MANKIND FINDS ITSELF IN

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MYSTIC AND A PHILOSOPHIC MYSTIC

BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:

• Paul Brunton, Notebooks

• Plotinus, The Enneads (MacKenna translation, 4th ed.)

NOTES:

• Pat Campbell transcript from 1983 exists (Scan File 1983 0831 - 32R03 PBN meditation 32p.PDF); other, earlier transcript versions exist, including one from 1988 by SH and one from 1993 from audio cassette tapes by hp, jf, et al.

TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT 2019. Reformatted from V11a by JRM & JF 2019-2020, with Subheads and Table of Contents added by JRM. In 2023, IT fixes prefatory matter and footer, updates audio file name, completes Book List, fixes minor errors. In 2025, MW adds Subsubjects and alters Subheads to make more accurate. Archival verbatim transcript – V14.1a.

AUDIO FILES: 1983 0831a, 1983 0831b. [Note 1: "Tape" and "Side" refer to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files. Note 2: In 2024, REP Studio improves the sound quality of file a.]

1983 08/31 at Wisdom's Goldenrod

PB Paras; Meditation

Archival verbatim transcript

[Audio File 1983 0831a Begins]

RC: Anthony likes this one.

PB [V15, 23:6.51, RC reading]: "By combining deep breathing with gentle smiling, both acts being done quite slowly, and by keeping the mind solely attentive to the body's condition, a relaxed half-drowsy state will develop. No other thoughts should be allowed to enter; the whole of his being should lie completely reposed in the rhythmic breathing and happily hypnotized by the lazy smile. (laughter) Everything should be light and effortless. This is the Yoga of the Liberating Smile." (laughter)

S (faint): You do this laying down?

S: I think Anthony's covered part of that. (bit more laughter)

RC (faint): I think you have to work nightshift. (bit of laughter)

[short pause]

S (very faint): Hey Randy?

RC (very faint): Oh definitely [couple/three words inaudible] (some laughter)

S (very faint): Yeah.

S (very faint): Uh-hm.

RC (very faint): It's a complicated decision [three/few words inaudible]

THE SECOND STAGE (MEDITATION) AND THE THIRD STAGE (CONTEMPLATION)

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.253 & V15, 23:7.56, RC reading]: "The second and third stages may have five stations from start to finish, although this is not the experience of all aspirants. In the first, [RC, very faint: And so I think it refers to the first and second stage."In the first] the body becomes numb and its weight vanishes. In the second, a fiery burning force uplifts the emotions and energizes the will. In the third, a sensation of being surrounded by light is felt. In the fourth, the man is alone in a dark void. In the fifth he seems to dissolve until there is nothing but the infinite formless being of God."

[short pause]

S (very faint): Read it again.

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.253 & V15, 23:7.56, RC rereads]: "The second and third stages may have five stations from start to finish, although this is not the experience of all aspirants. In the first, the body becomes numb and its weight vanishes. In the second, a fiery burning force uplifts the emotions and energizes the will. In the third, a sensation of being surrounded by light is felt. In the fourth, the man is alone in a dark void. In the fifth he seems to dissolve until there is nothing but the infinite formless being of God."

[10 second pause]

S (very faint): (Seems) again you have at least five-- at least five stages there, second and third together.

S (very faint): And this-- this would be going over the (ladder) to the-- the third spectrum or third stage.

S (very faint): Uh-huh.

VM (very faint): Sort of a nice thing here, he's saying that three different (meaning) of stages there. [few words inaudible] The three stages, within that there's five subdivisions of the second.

RC (very faint): The way he's got it put here is that second and third you have five stages (if) you start [one word inaudible]

VM (very faint): To think of the ladder of the five (that you wrote down) indistinguishable from the Overself.

S (very faint): Right.

S (very faint): [one word inaudible] necessarily.

VM (very faint): Station [couple words inaudible]

[short pause]

PB [V15, 23:7.11 & Persp., Ch. 23 #47, RC reading]: "There is, in this [RC reads: the] third stage, a condition that [RC reads: which] never fails to arouse the greatest wonder when initiation into it begins. In certain ways it corresponds to, and mentally parallels, the condition of the embryo in a mother's womb. Therefore, it is called by mystics who have experienced it"the second birth." The mind is drawn so deeply into itself and becomes so engrossed in itself that the outer world vanishes utterly. The sensation of being enclosed all round [RC reads: around] by a greater presence, at once protective and benevolent, is strong. There is a feeling of being completely at rest in this soothing presence. The breathing becomes very quiet and hardly perceptible. One is aware [also] that nourishment is being mysteriously and rhythmically drawn from the universal Life-force. Of course, there is no intellectual activity, no thinking, and no need of it. Instead, there is a k-n-o-w-i-n-g. There are no desires, no wishes, no wants. A happy peacefulness, almost verging on bliss, as human love might be without its passions and pettinesses, holds one in [RC adds: a] magical thrall. In its freedom from mental working and perturbation, from passional movement and emotional agitation, the [RC reads: this] condition bears something of infantile innocence. Hence Jesus' saying: "Except ye become as little children ye shall in no wise enter the Kingdom of Heaven." But essentially it is a return to a [RC reads: the] spiritual womb, to being born again into a new world of being where at the beginning he is personally as helpless, as weak, and as dependent as the physical embryo itself."

[24 second pause]

DB (faint): Randy, then is the [short pause] third station, or second, last one (designed), where that-- where that fiery burning comes in and you have all this will? And this is before that, ok. And it seems at this point there isn't any will left. You're not striving for anything. Is it that the will that you-- that you have strengthened in the second, whatever it is, certain number of the previous stages designed to get you through the-- the next one where you find yourself in a dark void? Is that-- is that the way that works? I'm trying to figure out what-- what the purpose of that will is because at this stage there doesn't seem to be any need for it.

RC (faint): Yeah at this stage there wouldn't be. It's the good part.

S (faint): In terms of (when it's going to) [three words inaudible]

DB: It's the (after one).

S (faint): [couple/three words inaudible]

RC (faint): When you talk in terms of the three stages there, concentration, meditation and contemplation, alright, this is the-- the contemplation. He's talking about, let me make sure you can get this [three/few words inaudible] [20¼ second pause] As to the purpose of the will I-- in-- [few words inaudible] I think you really need that force to get deep enough.

S (faint): Louder.

S (very faint): [couple words inaudible]

RC (faint): Um-- Without it, it just won't get-- won't get deep enough.

DB (faint): But that's-- is that the one with concurrent or preceding experience of the light?

RC: No, that point he said it doesn't have-- have to be experienced that way all the time.

S (very faint): Uh-hm.

S: (Bless you.)

[11¾ second pause]

RC: You know that-- I don't know, trying to get an image. [short pause] Like in those Star Wars movies where they-- they break light speed? There is an intensification, the engine, and then now you're in a different dimension.

DB (faint): Hyperspace.

RC: Hyperspace? (some laughter)

AH (faint): Oh yeah, now I understand it. (laughter)

DB (very faint): [few words inaudible]

S (very faint): And play some (video games).

[short pause]

AH: Randy, could-- [RC simultaneously: Yeah.] could you say a little more about that last quote, that transformation process, could we discuss that a little?

PD: Could-- could you reread it and then maybe Andrew?

RC (simultaneously): Yeah, that was going to be good.

PB [V15, 23:7.11 & Persp., Ch. 23 #47, RC rereads]: "There is, in this [RC reads: the] third stage, a condition that never fails to arouse the greatest wonder when initiation into it begins. In certain ways it corresponds to, and mentally parallels, the condition of the embryo in a mother's womb. Therefore, it is called by mystics who have experienced it"the second birth." The mind is drawn so deeply into itself and becomes so engrossed in itself that the outer world vanishes utterly. The sensation of being enclosed all round [RC reads: around] by a greater presence, at once protective and benevolent, is strong. There is [RC reads: There's] a feeling of being completely at rest in this soothing presence. The breathing becomes very quiet and hardly perceptible. One is aware also that nourishment is being mysteriously and rhythmically drawn from the universal Life-force. Of course, there is no intellectual activity, no thinking, and no need of it. Instead, there is a k-n-o-w-i-n-g. There are no desires, no wishes, no wants. A happy peacefulness, almost verging on bliss, as human love might be without its passions and pettinesses, holds one in [RC adds: a] magical thrall. In its freedom from mental working and perturbation, from passional movement and emotional agitation, the condition bears something of infantile innocence. Hence Jesus' saying: "Except ye become as little children ye shall in no wise enter the Kingdom of Heaven." But essentially it is a return to a [RC reads: the] spiritual womb, to being born again into a new world of being where at the beginning he is personally as helpless, as [RC reads: and] weak, and as dependent as the physical embryo itself."

[11¼ second pause]

AH: In terms of the-- the mystic terminate-- terminology, mystical terminology, like this process is-- follows the mystical death apparently? [short pause] Like is-- is death of something in order that something can be born? Is-- is that the proper context for-- I mean I'm trying to relate it to, you know, what specifically is being born. [short pause] Say perhaps the death of the ego, death of the personality is another way of speaking about the birth of this spiritual being? Trying to just--

S (very faint): Oh yeah.

[23¾ second pause]

RC: I have a hard time I guess [short pause] being exactly sure what's talked about in terms of death of the ego. Um-- It seems that here there's definitely a break, a clean break, at least a clean momentary break, with the personal perspective. Um-- [short pause] But I don't know that it would be right to say that-- I mean you're there. And I don't know that it would be right to say that you think that the person who's there is something other than you.

S (faint): Yeah.

PD: He calls this the third stage?

RC (simultaneously): Like that whole notion of you is like-- like dropped and the absorption is more in terms of with this presence that he's talking about here. All the emphasis goes onto the awareness being absorbed in that presence and the sense of you being a personal self-- the suspension of that sense of yourself as a personal self seems to be the price that you pay. But, I don't know that one or two or a few experiences of this sort would-- I don't think it would be right to equate that with the death of the ego. Because when you come out of this most times the ego's going to come right back.

AH: Well--

PD: Did he call that the third stage?

RC: Yeah, he says--

PB [V15, 23:7.11 & Persp., Ch. 23 #47, RC rereads a part of]: "…in this third stage, a condition that never fails to arouse the greatest wonder when initiation into it begins."

RC: I don't think that-- Maybe if you said initiation to it-- into it is completed and the person lives there that then you could talk about, saying ok that the ego had to-- had to die. But I don't think you have to talk about death of the ego.

PD: But that's already occurred in the first stage, the death of the ego, and what that process means. This is after the soul has been reborn in the life of the spirit.

LR: No, you're talking about the stations.

S (faint): Yeah.

PD (simultaneously): Yeah.

LR (simultaneously): This is--

S: This is the point.

S (faint): Yeah.

LR (simultaneously): See this-- this I think is talking about the third stage of concentration, meditation, contemplation.

PD: I don't see a difference.

LR: Oh you think those three are the stations?

PD: A different approach, different manner of explaining it, yeah.

LR: I don't-- I wasn't under that understanding.

AH: See it should [couple/three words inaudible] just--

CONTEMPLATION: DEPRIVE YOURSELF COMPLETELY OF ANY MENTAL FUNCTIONING AND YOU'RE IMMEDIATELY BORN INTO THE WORLD OF BEING

AD (simultaneously): It's the other way around, Paul, the death comes at the third stage, at the contemplation. What he's speaking is--

PD (simultaneously): Final-- the final death you mean, this-- in the silence.

AD: What he's speaking about here is, if you could conceive of the possibility of being stripped, now, as you stand, being stripped of all the mental faculties that you operate with--thinking, willing, feeling--everything that you consider to constitute your mentality, if you were stripped of that what would be left-- what would be left after all that is taken from you finds itself in the world of Being. But it would be like a babe in the woods. It doesn't know its way around. I'll repeat. Strip yourself of every faculty that you think you possess, all your thinking ability, everything which makes us think we're so superior, feeling, thinking, willing and any others you'd want to add to that. Strip yourself of these, alright. Now what's left over is born in the world of Being. And it is actually a fetus in the world of Being, a fetus in the sense that it's a child, it's-- it's a babe. And it doesn't know its way in that place yet.

[short pause]

PD: No I think the only thing I was saying was that, in order for that to happen, the death of the ego is the prerequisite. That it cannot be present and you can be in that state at the same time.

AD: Yeah and that's why that corresponds to the first stage of what you were talking about with the Sufis, we're talking about the first station was the death of the ego.

RC: As a station. I would definitely agree in terms of calling it a station. But wouldn't you agree that a person could have this experience a number of times and you still couldn't say of that person that that ego was dead?

AD: No, your ego doesn't necessarily die. In other-- you're speaking about when you enter the stage of contemplation and you're stripped of all these things, and you feel as though you've been reborn, it is conceivable that you come back and the ego hasn't died. Well what he's talking about here, I think the point he's making here is, deprive yourself of-- completely of any mental functioning and you're immediately born in the world of Being. And you are a babe. You don't know your way-- your way around, just like when you're a child, when you're born, you don't know your way around the physical world too. And your mother and father has to take care of all of that for you so in the same way when you're born in the world of Being takes considerable time before you find your way around.

PD: Could I ex-- explore this a little more or--

AD: No, you can't. But you can try. (some laughter)

PD: Ok. (more laughter) The previous quote that spoke of the five stages from the second to the third?

AD: Yeah you s-- he spread those five over meditation and contemplation.

PD: And at the end of that fifth stage, then you're in this state?

AD: Yeah.

[short pause]

PD: So the-- the very first step in-- in the second state is-- is the body-thought is no longer a determinant of consciousness.

AD: Yeah, you lose it, you lose it.

PD: You lose the body-thought.

AD: That's meditation proper. Prior to that it was concentration. You were trying to get rid of any thoughts. In meditation proper, alright, then you lose the body-thought. You're in the world or the realm of ideas.

[short pause]

MB: Anthony, could-- could just be that I missed what you said, that when the-- you enter into this realm, it's no-- you have not necessarily reached that first station of the Sufis? Is that what you said, you have or you haven't?

AD: It doesn't have to be because a person could have a glimpse of the world of Being without going through the mystical death. But, the point is that the three stages that the Sufis speak about, the first state-- was it the first station, was the mystical death. That was-- that means that you had to go into the Void and you had to destroy the ego (there/here). That's the way-- the way-- the peculiar way that they speak about it. And that-- that meant that you accomplish the first station. Now, if you forget about that, because it's only going to confuse you here, here he's talking about the fact that you may have a glimpse of Being if you strip yourself of all activity which is coming from the ego and the ego itself, because that's not permitted to go into the realm of Being either. You know, Being is egoless, there's no ego that you take into it, into Being when you go there. And that's what I meant when I said if you strip yourself of all this activity that you're identified with, thinking, willing, feeling, and if you take that all away and you leave just this core of awareness, this in-- individual consciousness, it is this which is, so to speak, finds itself in the world of Being. It will experience these things that PB's speaking about, the nourishment, the beneficence, the loveliness, but you are essentially a child, a babe, unknowing. [9¼ second pause] So it amounts to admittance into the world of Being.

MB: Anthony, that stripping process does not constitute a sort of a death. Or doesn't it in a small way?

AD: In a small way?

MB: Well, it seems like there must be something of a-- of a-- a shedding process that has to go on before being admitted to this realm.

RC (faint): They probably take out a contract on you [one word inaudible] (laughter)

MB (faint): Or give it back when you-- give it back when it's enlightened you think?

RC: No I mean--

S (very faint): No.

RG: No, not that (good). (bit of laughter)

S (very faint): Right.

VM: Eat a big muffin.

S (faint): Richard (lost).

S (faint): You already said that.

S (faint): He said that that's not (an orange bucket).

S (very faint): [couple words inaudible]

[short pause]

PB PARAS ON MEDITATION

PB [V15, 23:7.12 & Persp., Ch. 23 #55, RC reading]: "In the third stage, contemplation, the mind ceases to think and simply, without words, worships loves and adores the Divine."

[12½ second pause]

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:2.304, RC reading]: "The process of meditation resembles the letting down of a bucket into a well. If the bucket is not let down far enough, the water is not reached. In that case all the time given and trouble taken achieve nothing. If there is [RC reads: there's] no patience in the meditator, there will be no success in getting to the calmer depths of the mind where lives its godlike essence."

[short pause]

PB [Persp., Ch. 4 #37, RC reading]: "Meditation can be misused. It is then no longer a help toward [RC reads: to] [the] spiritual liberation [of man] but another captivity to keep him from it. It is misused when the object is to gain occult powers. These merely cater to the ego's aggrandizement. It is misused when the object is to become a prophet, [RC adds: a] teacher, or reformer who will influence or lead people. This merely caters to the ego's spiritual ambition, which is the same force as worldly ambition [RC adds: only] working on a higher level."

[11 second pause]

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:2.335, RC reading]: "Of what avail will it be to sit there, travelling round and round in self-centered thought [RC reads: thoughts], closeted with his ego and still held tightly in its embrace? Only by breaking out of this closed circle will the new awareness, the higher life, become a realizable possibility."

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:3.75, RC reading]: "Meditation has as its first object an increasing withdrawal of the mind from the things of this world, and also from the thoughts of this world, until it is stilled, passive, self-centered. But before it can achieve any object at all, attention must be made as keenly concentrated as an eagle's stare."

S (very faint): (Rich, go), go ahead.

TS (very faint): Go ahead.

S (faint): Yeah.

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:2.164, RC reading]: "It is not at all necessary to assume unbearable physical positions and torment oneself trying to maintain them. The less attention one need give to the presence of one's own body the better will be the conditions for successful practice. What is really necessary is to obey one simple rule: keep the body still, refuse to move it about or to fidget any limb. This [RC reads: The] physical quiet is both the prelude to and [RC adds: the] preparation for mental quiet. Any position in which one feels able to settle down comfortably and sit immobile is a good position."

[short pause]

LR: Randy, can I hear the one about the eagle again please?

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:3.75, RC rereads]: "Meditation has as its first object an increasing withdrawal of the mind from the things of this world, and also from the thoughts of this world, until it is stilled, passive, self-centered. But before it can achieve any object at all, attention must be made as keenly concentrated as an eagle's stare."

[24¾ second pause]

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.451, RC reading]: "An outwardly similar condition can be induced by artificial methods--such as suspension of breath, fixation of the gaze, or even hypnotizing [RC reads: hypnotization] of the mind--but it is only a counterfeit, only useful on its [own] physical and mental level, never on the mystical level which it is unable to touch. It has as much spiritual value as the hibernation of animals has. [S, faint: Yeah.] [S, faint: (Unbelievable.)] For the true condition does not really come [RC adds: about] through such effort of the ego, it comes by Grace. This is why the hatha yogi is warned not to get stuck in hatha yoga but to climb higher."

[short pause]

IF YOU STOP THINKING AT THE FIRST LEVEL (CONCENTRATION), THE IMPULSES THAT WILL COME INTO YOU WILL BE FROM YOUR OWN PSYCHE

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.280 & Persp., Ch. 4 #57, RC reading]: "Thinking must stop, but if it stops at the level of the little ego only a psychical experience or a mediumistic possession may result. If, however, it stops at a deeper level after right preparation and sufficient purification, the mind's emptiness may be filled by a realization of identity with the Overself."

AH: See I don't understand whatsoever the distinction between the mind stopping at the level of ego or thought stopping deeper. Could we-- could we discuss that?

RC: Ok.

AH: It-- it would seem that if thinking stopped, the dis-identification with the ego is assumed.

[short pause]

HS: I think there (is/was) an implication of some sort of ontic principle here. There was a feeling that personal will could stop the thinking identifi-- at the level of ego identification or a person could stop the thinking at a level of-- oh I don't know, we spoke of like, you know, in Samkhya the different principles, (this) ahamkara, something in there, or we could stop it in the buddhi. I think that's the implication there. And the higher up you stop the better off you're going to be and maybe don't ordinarily [one word inaudible] That's where you'll find the view.

AH: Well then the notion of thinking in this quote you're enlarging to include contact with those ontic principles.

[student assents, very faint]

PD/S(?): (We/You) always--

HS (simultaneously): You always-- you always would have contact with them.

AH (faint): You think it's a conceptual contact?

S (faint): No.

VM (simultaneously): Wait a second. I don't think it's that-- I may be looking at it too simple-minded. 'Cause you can stop the thinking by concentrating on one particular object. Would you agree with that? Now if the object is level of the ego that's where you're on. On the other hand if you have a more exalted object I would assume that a different state ensues. And maybe something like that is what's being mentioned. I don't think it's different that much from what Herbert is saying, I'm just trying to make it more perhaps concrete or something.

DB: Well, my problem is that it sounded at least from the-- the way the quote ran that no matter what the ego does, anything that-- anywhere it stops is going to be within its own level, and that the-- stopping the mind at a deeper level is a matter of Grace. And, perhaps I misunderstood that, but it doesn't seem like the ego is able to stop-- stop the function-- functioning of a principle that transcends its-- transcends its fields of activity.

VM: Yes maybe I-- maybe I misheard the quote or didn't remember it properly but I thought it was the issue of stopping the functioning of the mind, which I'm assuming is-- is more inclusive than the ego. Normally our own identification is with the ego but-- Maybe you should read it again and [one/two words inaudible]

AD: Well go back to the three stages: concentration, meditation, and contemplation. If you stop at the first level, what level are you at? If you stop at the second level, what level are you at? [short pause] The first level in concentration?

RC: Psychosomatic.

AD: Yeah. Second level you're in the world of ideas. So if you stop in the first level you're-- in all likelihood you'll be-- the impulses that'll be coming into you will be from your own psyche. I mean, they could readily take possession. A thought of anger, a thought of lust, hate, ambition could come over-- could take over. But if you reach the second level of meditation where your concentration now is-- you know, there's a very intense effort on a particular idea and a complete exe-- exegesis is taking place on that idea, you're not moving away from it, alright, there thought will come to a natural halt. Then if anything took possession it certainly wouldn't be the images, the thoughts, the memories, the impulses that are coming from the psychosomatic organism. Because it's not in that level.

WHAT SEEMS LIKE AN INTENSIFICATION OF THE WILL IN MEDITATION IS ACTUALLY AN INFLUX OF GRACE

RC: So you'd say that's where the intensification of the will that he spoke of in that first quote comes in, is that when the mind really does begin to focus and try to get beyond the psychosomatic that's exactly where that-- that will is needed?

AD: No. If-- if I remember the quote you're referring to, if-- I don't know if-- He says an intensification of the will but actually, the way I understand it is that there is an influx, an influx of Grace comes into you and the supreme effort needed to make that leap is made possible. But it's not-- it's not really your will. It's like this thing behind you pushing your will.

RC: Yeah. He's got a number of quotes that talk about it, that particular step as at times it seems like something is pulling you and then it seems like it's inside you and you're pushing it. And then again it seems like it's pulling you and it seems like you're pushing.

AD: I think sometimes some of you may have felt while you're meditating like you're jolted all of a sudden and you stop-- you start saying "Well I better get serious about this." You ever have that experience? (bit of laughter) No? Well, it's really not the will but something higher coming into you saying, "Come on, let's go," alright. It's not your personal will. But that's the way I understand it so--

RC: Yeah. The way he put it was he says "a fiery force uplifts the emotions and energizes the will," not so much that it comes from inside the ego.

AD (simultaneously): Yeah you-- somebody's really pushing you along.

S: Yeah.

S: Yeah. (bit of laughter)

S: Yeah. (bit of laughter)

AD: Believe me, you won't do it with your will.

AH: Could this-- could this quote refer in any-- in any way to last week's discussion? Say like the quality of attention has to be extraordinary in order to traverse that first step. If the attention is lax during that first stage when the thinking stops there might be identification with psychic contents or possession. Like, are-- could we also speak about this transition as the quality of the attention? Because it would seem that in practice, or so if you took up-- took up meditation, you would have to go through that s-- of necessity you have to experience the thoughts stopping at the level of personal psyche. I mean, that has to happen before anything else could happen. But it seems a difficult place there that has to be traversed to the next stage. Is that in any way an appropriate understanding? [short pause] Like when we sit down to meditate we're all presumably make effort to stop thinking. Is that not so?

AD: I hope not.

[students assent, very faint] (bit of laughter)

RC/S (?) (faint): Uh-hm.

AH: Well then I've been doing it wrong for fifteen years.

AD: I mean if you-- if you're doing something like a mantram and if you're saying like Om bitsu, Om bitsu, alright, and you keep repeating the mantram, you'll-- you're not-- you're-- you haven't stopped thinking. You're simply thinking about one thing. And [AH: Ok.] the point here was that what happens-- what happens is there's lapses, you know, you're saying it then all of a sudden you'll forget about it and you'll be thinking about something else. And then you bring your mind back and you say "Look, we're supposed to be doing this," and you go back and you keep doing it, alright. So it isn't that you stop thinking, it's really that you're learning to concentrate or focus your thinking on one thing, alright, so that it can get very concentrated. Now what he was saying in regard to the quote was that very often people in that first stage will permit a kind of passivity to take place. And there have been some quotes when he warned about that because meditation wrongly done can become a problem, I mean, you can put yourself in a passive state where things will take possession of you that you don't want to, you know. An impulse might arise, a-- one of hate or an ambitious thing and it will take over the psyche if the person is-- is not properly prepared for it and cautious. So he speaks about that and he-- I think Randy read those quotes last week on a certain amount of preparation and caution that's involved. And some people got a little upset that there could be bad consequences for doing something wrong, I-- you know, for doing the exercise wrong. I don't see why that should be upsetting.

[short pause]

AH: Yes (Anthony/and) that was my specific question, that compared to last week's discussion was that attention had to be very vigilant in order to--

AD: Yeah, now I had difficulty understanding one remark I think Larry made that-- or implied, that if you bring about this complete attention, that your mind will be a blank. And, I think it was straightened out, huh Larry? That if you're completely at attention your mind can't be blank.

LH: It's going to be full.

AD: Well, I wouldn't say blank, full, empty, or anything like that.

LH: Well I just meant full in the sense that there would be a sense of attention and vitality [AD: Yeah.] rather than [AD, faint: Yeah.] passivity.

S (faint): Yeah.

AD: Yeah it won't be-- it won't be nothing. [short pause] Alright Randy, let's continue.

"SPIRITUAL DRYNESSES ARE INTENDED TO PURIFY THE CHARACTER, FORTIFY THE WILL, AND DETACH MEN FROM THE EGO"

PB [Persp., Ch. 4 #27, RC reading]: "It is [RC reads: It's] a common mistake to believe that because no fruit seems to grow out of the exercise, no feeling and no experience result from it, [RC adds: then] the time given to it is wasted. This is why so many abandon it after a short or long trial. But how can the ego know that even the simple act of sitting like a beggar at the Overself's door, in resigned humility and patience and perseverance, is an act of faith for which the reward is certain, even though the form of this reward may not be?"

S (very faint): Yeah, uh-hm.

S (very faint): Would you read that?

S (very faint): Yes please.

PB [Persp., Ch. 4 #27, RC rereads]: "It is a common mistake to believe that because no fruit seems to grow out of the exercise, no feeling and no experience result from it, the time given to it is wasted. This is why so many abandon it after a short or long trial. But how can the ego know that even the simple act of sitting like a beggar at the Overself's door, in resigned humility and patience and perseverance, is an act of faith for which the reward is certain, even though the form of this reward may not be?"

[short pause]

RC: Carol, do you-- do you have that card that was on the board with the thing about the ecstasies and the drynesses?

CDA: It's still there I think. You want to get it?

RC: Is it?

[34¾ second pause]

PB [V15, 23:3.72, RC reading]: "The spiritual joys are intended to entice men--lethargic or reluctant as they are--onto the Quest, or to reward them when they have finished it. That is to say, they are for beginners and adepts. The spiritual drynesses are intended to purify the character, fortify the will, and detach men from the ego. That is to say, they are for sufficiently grown adults. It is the paradoxical irony of this situation that the joys of the beginner make him believe that he is very near to God whereas the desolations of the proficient make him despise himself."

[students assent, very faint]

S: Again.

RG: Uh-hm.

DB: Say Randy?

RG/S(?): What?

DB: Are there any other quotes that you've seen that actually explain how that (happened/happens)? I mean how these drynesses do this business?

[few seconds of faint background student talking]

S: Yeah we (do/don't).

RC: Yeah, actually there are a lot.

DB: There are.

RC: I've been filing them basically under "The Dark Night of the Soul". And there's a-- there's a pretty good quantity of them. There's also-- I'm not sure now which volume it is. Maybe June knows. [S simultaneously: Volume (3).] There's a long essay on the dark night of the soul. And he does go into quite a bit of detail in (there/it).

CDA (simultaneously): It's in "Early Writings".

AB (faint): And I'm going to try as best as I can [couple/three words inaudible] (bit of laughter)

[few seconds of faint background student talking]

RC: But that's a whole, I mean, depressing and reassuring topic in its own right.

S (very faint): Yeah it is.

S (faint): This--

[short pause]

PB [V15, 23:3.72, RC rereads]: "The spiritual joys are intended to entice men--lethargic or reluctant as they are--onto the Quest, or to reward them when they have finished it. That is to say, they are for beginners and adepts. The spiritual drynesses are intended to purify the character, fortify the will, and detach men from the ego. That is to say, they are for sufficiently grown adults. It is the paradoxical irony of this situation [that the joys of the beginner make him believe that he is very near to God whereas the desolations of the proficient make him despise himself]."

(Side 1 of original cassette tape digitized as 1983 0831a Ends; Side 2 Begins)

PB [V15, 23:3.43, RC reading]: "[Accept the long night patiently, quietly, humbly, and resignedly as] intended for your true good. It is not a punishment for sin committed but an instrument of [RC reads: for] annihilating egoism."

[9¼ second pause]

HE: Randy, I know you don't want to talk about the Dark Night right now but just briefly, when he says spiritual dryness here, would that go back to the meditation without fruit, without feeling?

RC (simultaneously): Yeah. Though it doesn't have to be the Dark Night but that's the only place I could think of where [HE simultaneously: Uh-hm, that-- uh-hm.] he does talk about when the feeling of support from the Overself isn't there. [HE assents] Why? What's going on?

S: (Yeah/Read).

S: Can you read it?

PB [V3, 2:3.20, TS reading]: "Many are the aspirants who complain that they have had no mystical experiences, no rapt ecstatic exaltations, no great awe-inspiring enlightenments."Give me just a single Glimpse," they cry disheartened, "and I will [then] be sure that your path is correct, your way is the one for me. Otherwise . . ." Some of them drift away to join sects, teachers, cults, or to embrace new doctrines, techniques, systems. Some remain but are halfhearted, apathetic, and often critical. A few concern themselves with [TS adds: the] fundamental issues and work patiently on, holding the view that this quest must be followed to the end for its own sake, whether Glimpses do or do not come."

[10 second pause]

TS/S(?) (very faint, possibly part of background): [few words inaudible]

AD: There's another one where he says "Better the-- better the tears of repentance than the joys of ecstasy." [Note: "It is better for his real progress that his eyes should fill with the tears of repentance than with the tears of ecstasy." (PB, V5, 6:1.453)]

[11¾ second pause]

RC: We have sort of a little rating system in terms of publication. Because we don't know yet how many pages we're going to be able to do in any given section. We've been working with one, two and three stars as a-- as a way to distinguish. This is a four star one. (bit of laughter)

PB [V15, 23:7.164 & Persp., Ch. 23 #59, RC reading]: "Every state…"

"EVERY STATE OTHER THAN PERFECT STILLNESS IS A MANIFESTATION OF THE EGO"

AD: Write it down. Write it down. Meditate on this one.

S: Slowly.

RC: I'll read it through once first and then--

PB [V15, 23:7.164 & Persp., Ch. 23 #59, RC reading]: "Every state other than this perfect stillness is a manifestation of the ego, even if it be an inner mystical"experience." To be in the Overself one must be out of the ego, and consequently out of the ego's experience [RC reads: experiences], thoughts, fancies, or images. All these may have their fit place and use at other times but not when the consciousness is to be raised completely to the Overself."

[9¾ second pause]

PB [V15, 23:7.164 & Persp., Ch. 23 #59, RC rereads slowly]: "Every state other than this perfect stillness is a manifestation of the ego, even if it be an inner mystical"experience." To be in the Overself one must be out of the ego, and consequently out of the ego's experience [RC reads: experiences], thoughts, fancies, or images. All these may have their fit place and use at other times but not when the consciousness is to be raised completely to the Overself."

[10½ second pause]

AH: Randy that-- the perfect stillness that prefaces that quote, and then later he talks about certainly this precludes the possibility of the ego's thoughts, but-- [BS, faint: I had to tell (one/two words inaudible)] We've spoken about a kind of knowing. We-- we speak of a kind of knowing. Do you think in any sense whatsoever it would be [one word inaudible] to speak of any kind of cognitive activity in this perfect stillness? I'm going to say, no it's not the ego's thoughts but it's a more sublime kind of a thought. We've heard that kind of possibility mentioned. Do you think perfect stillness precludes any kind of cognitive activity? Any kind of knowing?

RC: I think any kind of defined content. Yes. I don't think that in order for there to be defined content, it's necessary for the mind to leave that stillness, that seems to be what Sahaja's going to be about. But this quote is really trying to make the point of there is a clean break between the successive thought activity and the state of being still.

AH: Did you answer my question?

RC: I guess if I didn't then I didn't understand it.

RG: Andrew, what kind of activity can you conceive of that would be coincident with that stillness?

AH: None. None whatsoever.

RG: And yet [one/two words inaudible]

AH (simultaneously): But-- but we had spoken about a kind of knowing perhaps [S simultaneously: (Yes sir.)] or-- we had used thought at that level.

RG: Well in that-- but isn't it knowing-- I mean isn't it the purest kind of knowing you could have?

[short pause]

RC: The view of like saying that it's not knowing, that it's not cognitive, you would say, to think of it as some kind of negative thing, um--

AS/S(?): (He has/See there's) this line in Plotinus, to know what happened.

RG: Yeah you could.

RC: Yeah but-- but Anthony's used the expression a number of times (in) talking about knowing knowing. And the other quote that I've mentioned a couple of times where he says that, it's not that you are to know the Overself as to become the knowing that is the Overself. And he's really trying to say this is an illuminative state and not a-- a dead or negative state.

AH: But, I was really having trouble resolving this with a-- with an earlier quote tonight, that--

AD: What you're asking Andrew, is this-- is this stillness a kind of knowing? Yes, it is. No kind that you know though. Is this stillness a kind of knowing? It is a kind of knowing. But nothing that we're familiar with. It's certainly not a stupidity. (bit of laughter)

AH: Is this-- is this the place in the earlier quote where thought should stop rather than within the ego?

AD: There is no thought here in this state.

AH: Well then what (is/did)-- See, this quote seems to in-- to equate thinking with ego, clearly. Like the two are interchangeable almost. Then the earlier quote is the admonition not to let stop thought within the ego but at some ontic place outside of it. I'm having trouble resolving those two ideas.

PD: If you look at the former quote--

AD (simultaneously): I'm sorry, I lost you, I can't hear you.

PD: The former quote, Andrew, where we're stopping thoughts but not stopping the ego's activity; that's not the true meditative state. The true meditative still mind is stopping all activity, which includes the ego activity, or the ego thought. So it's when he was distinguishing the two levels before.

[student assents, very faint]

[16½ second pause]

AD: Andrew, will you repeat what you were-- I didn't follow you at all.

AH: I was still confused over the quote about not letting thought stop at the level of personal ego because you might get possessed or something. You have to make it stop someplace else. Now this quote--

AD: No don't bring these two quotes together. Don't bring these two quotes together. They'll-- The gist of this statement is in the first sentence, you don't have to go beyond that. Just the first sentence.

AH: Perfect stillness.

AD: Just-- would you read him the first part? Just the first sentence.

PB [V15, 23:7.164 & Persp., Ch. 23 #59, RC rereads a part of]: "Every state other than this perfect stillness is a manifestation of the ego…"

AD: Cut right there and you don't need any further. [AH assents, faint] [9 second pause] That's it, that's the statement. You could take that to meditation with you.

AH: Well if that's a definitive statement it-- it certainly clears up a number of discussions we had concerning the individual Overself and Overself and, you know, resolve--

AD (simultaneously): Well, Andrew, the reason I suggested that you use this for meditation is that it-- it'll be like a safeguard, alright? Anything that comes into your mind when you're meditating you'll recognize is simply a manifestation of the ego. Why bother? Just ignore it and keep-- keep going on like that. [AH simultaneously: Any--] No matter how sublime.

AH: How spiritual a theme.

AD: (Stillness/Still this) is stillness. [short pause] It's a wonderful watchdog. "Oh, look at what I'm looking at, isn't it angelic?" Well of course at times it is and it can be very compulsive too. But this will be the safeguard. You're not at the Overself. [short pause] If there's anyone there, you haven't reached it. A good definition of Nirvana would be, and I think he says it somewhere, egoless Being. Ok? That would be perfect stillness. [short pause] Randy, proceed please.

PB PARAS ON MEDITATION

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:5.107, RC reading]: "The practice of meditating on the mental image of the master is helpful at the proper time, but the meditator should understand that it is not the most advanced practice. If at any time during it, or after attempting it, he feels drawn to the Void exercise, or to any of the exercises [RC reads: or to any exercise] dealing with the formless spirit of Mind, he ought to let himself slip away from the pictorial meditation and pass up into the pure contemplation. He need have no reluctance or hesitation in doing so."

[9½ second pause]

AD: Can you imagine these Zen beatniks going around talking about "Kill the Buddha when you meet it"? [short pause] The presupposition is that they're already at this advanced stage in meditation and they're-- they're cap-- you know they're in a position where they could let go of this guiding influence or the image of a Master and they could kill it. Well, it's one of the things that, well, we don't do willingly, to give up that image of the Master once you-- you fix your gaze on him. It's only with reluctance that you would, you know, push it aside and do the higher exercise. [11 second pause] Let's continue.

[short pause]

PB [V15, 23:7.8 & Persp., Ch. 23 #34, RC reading]: "If meditation may have unfortunate results when its concentrative power is applied negatively or selfishly, contemplation--its higher phase--may have similar results when its passive condition is entered without previous purification or preparation. Miguel [RC reads: Michael] de Molinos knew this well and therefore put a warning in the preface of his book The Spiritual Guide which treats with [the] authority of an expert the subject of contemplation."The doctrine of this book," he announced, "instructs not all sorts of persons, but those only who keep the senses and passions well mortified, who have already advanced and made progress in Prayer.""

[21¾ second pause]

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.36, RC reading]: "Both the necessity and justification of meditation lie in this, that man is so preoccupied with his own thoughts that he is never aware of the mind out of which they arise and in which they vanish. The process of stilling these thoughts, or advanced meditation, makes this awareness possible."

[14¾ second pause]

PB [Persp., Ch. 4 #7, RC reading]: "When the mind is distracted by its surroundings, it is prevented from perceiving itself. This is easy to understand. When it is distracted by the body, it is also prevented from gaining such perception. This is harder but still possible to understand. But when the mind is distracted from attending to itself by its own thoughts, this is the hardest of all its situations to understand."

[16¾ second pause]

PB [V15, 23:7.46 & Persp., Ch. 23 #57, RC reading]: "This [RC reads: The] last stage, contemplation, is neither deep reflective thinking nor self-hypnotic trance. It is intense awareness, without the intrusion of the little ego or the large world."

[9¾ second pause]

AH: Read that one again now.

PB [V15, 23:7.46 & Persp., Ch. 23 #57, RC rereads]: "This [RC reads: The] last stage, contemplation, is neither deep reflective thinking nor self-hypnotic trance. It is intense awareness, without the intrusion of the little ego or the large world."

[short pause]

ATTENTION INTROSPECTING UPON ITSELF HAS THE GREATEST DIFFICULTY DISTINGUISHING THAT FROM THINKING ABOUT ITSELF

BS: Could you read the previous one again if you don't mind?

RC: When the mind's distracted by its surroundings?

S: Uh-hm.

BS (faint): Yeah, the one you read just before this one.

AS (faint): The other quote.

PB [Persp., Ch. 4 #7, RC rereads]: "When the mind is distracted by its surroundings, it is prevented from perceiving itself. This is easy to understand. When it is distracted by the body, it is also prevented from gaining such perception. This is harder but still possible to understand. But when the mind is distracted from attending to itself by its own thoughts, this is the hardest of all its situations to understand."

BS: That last part again please? "When the mind is…"

PB [Persp., Ch. 4 #7, RC rereads a part of]: "But when the mind is distracted from attending to itself by its own thoughts…"

RC: When it's distracted by its own thoughts.

BS: Oh ok.

PB [Persp., Ch. 4 #7 cont., RC rereads a part of]: "…this is the hardest of all [its] situations to understand."

RC: That makes sense, doesn't it?

[students assent, very faint]

DB: Well, I don't understand why it's the hardest-- what-- what's so hard about understanding, (well) I simply don't.

AH: The doing and the object are the same tissue. Like the attempt you're making to understand and the content of the understanding is all one piece when attacking mind, in a-- in a very intimate and personal way.

S: Oh.

RC: But see usually you think that a thought is going to deliver you some information, is going to deliver you some meaning, so by paying attention to the thought, you get the meaning. But when he says that those very thoughts are precisely what's preventing you from getting the meaning, [short pause] [BS: Still see--] then it's hard from within the thoughts to really understand it.

AH: As a matter of fact it's impossible.

[students assent, faint]

S (faint): Read the quote again.

BS: He's talking about the thoughts of the ego there, right? [S: But--] Or is it-- the mind's thoughts--

S: He means the ego.

BS: The ego and the mind synonymous then or-- The lower phase of the mind or--

RC: I think it's very general here. You could almost say "When you…"

BS: Yeah.

RC: Or when you're distracted from attending to your own being because of the very thoughts that you have. Maybe that's easier to understand.

VM: What about the quote that Anthony just had us write down or memorize or whatever? It seems that that answers the question in a sense, that any experience you might have is definitely a form of thought no matter how involved it might be, and is a manifestation of the ego. It may be a very high manifestation relatively-- relative to the state that most of us normally find ourselves in. But nonetheless, it's not the perfect stillness and therefore not the Overself.

BS: I guess what I'm trying to do, which is impossible, is grasp some idea or concept for myself I could-- It goes against the statement.

VM: What mind is?

BS (simultaneously): (It) is. Yeah. (VM laughs a bit) You know, the realm of Being as the ideas themselves, are they some kind of thoughts, are they thoughts in a holistic sense? You know, I'm just trying to-- to get that idea, and-- the way we spoke of, you know, Being in other classes.

AH: Bert?

BS: What the self would be in that case.

AH: Bert, I think one-- one way to--

BS: Is it other than mind? I-- it's-- it's so inconceivable, you know, I'm just getting baffled now.

AH: I think (as-- as/this is) a meditation-- respect or metaphysical discussion of those principles it's something to get to.

BS: That may be true but it just came up with me there.

AH: I think-- I think one way of tackling the quote, we talk about levels of reflection, you know, I mean-- We talk about I know the pole, I know that I know the pole, knower itself cannot be known. That's why it's so hard, (the third step).

S (faint): Yeah you said that.

S: [one word inaudible]

DB: I-- my problem was I guess--

BS: But it's always be still and know yourself, right, or know God or-- Oh, right.

AH (simultaneously): The quote-- the quote suggested at the third stage that a object-- There's still an object.

S: I mean it seems like a-- the-- the difficulty doesn't of-- if you're dreaming, knowing that you're dreaming, right? I mean an external distraction one can tell one is distracted. A physical distraction is a little bit more difficult to detect. But an actual, really inner thought distraction is much more difficult in the same sense that if you're totally asleep, in a sense you're having this dream, you're lost in this dream, but you just don't see it, because, like a drop of ink in water this is in-- it's right in with the water.

[9¼ second pause]

DB: See my problem is if-- Maybe I've been doing it for a while and I don't really grasp the hard part of it but I don't see what's so hard to understand about the fact that the mind's thoughts distract it from itself. And what I'm trying to do is get at an understanding of why that's so, why [S simultaneously: Is it--] it is so hard, because, I mean, it doesn't seem like a problem.

BS: It seems [S simultaneously: Isn't this--] to place mind in between two categories, the one its thoughts and the one, if it was still what it would be contemplating. Or is the stillness the self contemplating, that's basically my question. [students assent, faint] I'm sorry.

AH: David, could I try this? In response to your question you say that-- that it's easy to-- easy enough to see external things as being [one word inaudible]

S: Andrew--

DB: I've seen that myself once in awhile.

AH (simultaneously): Yes. And that you can experience your body in this kind of a-- of a very intimate and sort of personal way and that's a little-- little harder to notice.

DB: Right.

AH: But, as soon as you go to the third category it-- it could be a different context, there's nothing-- That what's out there is a mental object.

DB: Right.

AH: That's very same tissue as-- very same thing as a perspective of trying to grasp that object.

DB (faint): Yeah.

AH: That's so hard.

S (simultaneously): Well, it [couple words inaudible]

DB (simultaneously): Well no, (but it beats--)

TS: That's just saying that we have no trouble in finding a quiet place to sit down, we have no trouble in making ourselves comfortable, but then dropping the thoughts we seem to have some reluctance about. I think that's all he's saying.

DB: Yeah but the quote is actually that the third stage is the hardest to understand why the appearance [TS simultaneously: And why do you think that?] of thought in the mind is to distract it.

RG: What do you think [PD simultaneously: Look you--] he means by understand here though?

DB: Well, within the context of the rest of it--

RG: I think he's speaking about three levels of identification. You never, ever identify with your surroundings so it's easy to say you're not them. [DB simultaneously, faint: Well, alright.] The identification with the body is closer but less taken to be the "I" in a [one/two words inaudible] and you take-- you take it to be the "me". But the thoughts are what you always identify with as yourself and that's why it's the hardest to understand.

CDA (simultaneously): They are the very substance of the ego, so if it doesn't--

S: Also maybe [couple words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): Why don't you go a little further, Richard, one more step.

S (faint): Yeah.

RG: That is what?

S (very faint): Yeah.

AD: You got the point there, the hardest part is to dis-identify from the psyche.

S (very faint): Yeah, uh-hm.

MB: And it-- it seems like he's saying the more subtle the thoughts become, right?

S: (Yeah.)

RG: And even at least, well-- and even the know-- even the functions of the mind like knowing, willing, and feeling, not just the content (level) would even be harder. It's hard enough just to distinguish yourself from the mental thoughts, but from the functions themselves it'd be much-- would be even harder.

[short pause]

S (faint): (Do you have an issue?) (bit of laughter)

AD: Yeah generally, generally if you-- if attention is introspecting into itself, the most difficult part of that exercise is that you're not aware when it's let's say thinking about itself. Attention introspecting into itself is hardly aware when it is thinking about itself.

[student assents, faint]

[9¼ second pause]

AD/S(?) (incredibly faint, possibly part of background): (I found) repeat.

AH: I didn't understand that, Anthony.

AD: Well--

DB: So, are we supposed to interpret this quote not in the sense of trying to understand it from the-- the sense of trying to do it? I mean from that perspective I don't-- I don't see what the problem is.

S (faint): Which perspective?

RG: Of doing it?

DB: Yeah. I mean it's easier to get-- it's easier to not be distracted by the surroundings, theoretically, than-- and-- than it is to be free of thoughts of the body. So how-- I mean-- but it's a question of doing it, not trying to understand why it's so. That's what I'm trying to get it.

S (simultaneously, faint): I think that you might be doing it though, I think you're doing it.

RC: Yeah well that's the point, you're doing it.

RG (simultaneously): Yeah why don't you-- why don't-- why don't you give it a la-- a larger context to the word 'understanding'?

DB: Well, sure, fine, I don't care.

RC: I think if you really understand anything it means that you're not susceptible to illusions about it anymore. If you were to really understand that your thoughts distract you from being aware of the essence of your own mind, it would seem to, I think, have to have a different perspective on your thought activity. Otherwise--

DB/AH(?) (simultaneously): Well I get--

DB/S(?) (very faint): (Ok.)

AH: But that perspective is the thought activity, that's why it's so hard. The very perspective that one gains upon profound reflection is still within that thought activity.

VM: Didn't we turn just to what-- the point that Anthony was trying to develop, or I thought he was trying to develop, and that was the sort of distinction between trying-- sort of focusing on attention in a s-- in a sort of contentless way and then thinking about attention or reflecting on attention. Were you trying to say something along those lines, Anthony?

AD: I wasn't trying to. [RG simultaneously: Yeah, he said it.] I said very accurately. Attention-- (some laughter) attention introspecting upon itself, alright, has the greatest difficulty distinguishing that from thinking about itself.

RG (faint): Right.

S (very faint): Uh-hm.

VM: Ok, thank you.

RC: Remember PB's got-- in that Serpent Path [S simultaneously: Yeah, yeah.] exercise he talks about the need not to start thinking about the nature of pure thought itself. Stop and do it.

AD (simultaneously): Yeah, that-- that would be an example where you're paying attention to attention. Attention is introspecting into itself. And then very subtly and insidiously a thought will come about it, alright, and you still think you're introspecting.

RG: Uh-hm.

S (faint): Uh-hm.

AD: That's where the identification is so subtle that it's going to require extreme alertness to distinguish that activity that's starting to come in that way. [RC assents, faint] So, when thought introspects into itself, that is like the mind trying to look into itself and it holds onto that position. But then very subtly, you know, like a snake wrapped in the grass and coming out, you're thinking about it. And you can't find that point where it starts. [students assent, faint] So it's a-- it's very precise what he's saying there. But he, you know, put it in a nice easy way.

PD: Is that what, you know, the board clapping is used for, to snap attention back on itself there?

AD: Yeah, and to mobilize your energy. You know, in the same way like, when he was speaking before about something comes into your will or energizes your will, that too has to be included because very often like your will is energized and you raise your hand and you tell me, person who's clapping the boards to come and hit you and very often a tremendous gush of energy comes in and gives you the extra spurt, the energy to plunge deeper into yourself. But of course if he doesn't like you he may hit you too hard. (laughter)

PD: Or if he likes you. (some laughter)

S (faint): [few words inaudible]

AH: Anthony? In your-- in your precise description, you said in the case of introspection the intro-- the attention is turned upon itself. But the problem always seems to be that there's something that is made objective to that attention. Like in the-- I-- attention upon itself is not attention upon any object, is that so?

AD: Uh-hm.

AH: But there's a subtle, compulsive [AD: Yeah.] tendency for the mind to objectify something to be attentive to.

AD: It's like you're trying not to sweat, you know, or you're trying not to breath so you close your mouth and your nose and you'll start breathing through your pores. (AD laughs a bit, bit of laughter) You lose out one way or another.

[short pause]

S (faint): That's very (insightful).

S (very faint): Yeah.

AD: It's almost like saying that you're at the extreme where you almost have succeeded in bringing thought activity to a halt. It's at that extreme level that I am speaking about this activity taking place and it's hardly noticeable when it starts. And you have to constantly recall yourself and that you're supposed to be introspecting into yourself. And it's at that extreme where you constantly-- the vigilance that's required is an extreme one. Because the activity is so minute, so subtle, so silent, that before you know it you're thinking about it. [students assent, very faint] That's alright, you'll get to it, let's go on.

[short pause]

"MEDITATION IS ACHIEVED IF THE CONCENTRATED MIND IS USED TO REFLECT ON THE OVERSELF OR THE WAY TO IT"

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:4.102, RC reading]: "Meditation is not achieved if the concentrated mind is directed toward a subject of personal and worldly nature. Reflecting on the subject will give a deeper knowledge of it…"

RC: I better read that differently.

AH: You speak of the subject here as the object.

RC: Yeah.

HS: Try it again now.

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:4.102 cont., RC reading]: "Reflecting on the subject will give a deeper knowledge of it [RC reads: Reflecting on the subject of personal and worldly nature will give a knowledge of it] and a fuller perception of its meaning, but it will not give anything more. However concentrated the mind may become, it will not escape from the ego, nor does it seek to do so. Meditation is achieved if the concentrated mind is used to reflect on the Overself or the way to it."

[13½ second pause]

AD: Do you remember that story PB says when Brahms wanted to compose? He would speculate or he would reflect upon a subject of universal validity, you know? He wouldn't think about himself. Because he wouldn't be able to compose if he did. So he'd think about a broad universal subject, compassion, love, something like that. Now, if in meditation you start meditating about a particular problem you have, it's going to be circumscribed by the ego. It's that simple. Because you're never going to think outside of the ego. And only-- only how it relates to the ego, those will be the only thoughts that will ever come out of it. So, you'll only get out of it what your ego puts into it. (AD laughs a bit) Well it's already in your ego.

[9 second pause]

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:6.231 & Persp., Ch. 4 #85, RC reading]: "When his last thought at night and [RC adds: his] first thought in the morning refers to the Overself, he may appraise his progress as excellent."

[students assent, faint]

LR/S(?) (very faint): [couple/three words inaudible]

RG/S(?) (very faint): Randy, the last sentence?

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:6.231 & Persp., Ch. 4 #85, RC rereads]: "When his last thought at night and [RC adds: his] first thought in the morning refers to the Overself, he may appraise his progress as excellent."

[short pause]

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.131 & Persp., Ch. 4 #13, RC reading]: "The novice must be warned that certain ways of practising concentration [RC reads: contemplation], such as visualizing diagrams or repeating [RC reads: repeated] declarations, as well as emptying the mind to seek guidance, must not be confused with the [true] way of meditation. This has no other object than to surrender the ego to the Overself and uses no other method than prayerful aspiration, loving devotion, and mental quiet."

[short pause]

S: Can you read that again?

RC: Yeah I think that's really a big thing for the-- [S, faint: Yeah.] the Sages.

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.131 & Persp., Ch. 4 #13, RC rereads]: "The novice must be warned that certain ways of practising concentration, such as visualizing diagrams or repeating declarations, as well as emptying the mind to seek guidance, must not be confused with the true way of meditation. This has no other object than to surrender the ego to the Overself and uses no other method than prayerful aspiration, loving devotion, and mental quiet."

LR: "This" refers to the meditation?

RC: The way of true meditation.

S: Yeah.

[short pause]

DB: So basically, Randy, would you say that those (permanent) three are in some sense goal-oriented as far as one's worldly activities are concerned one way or another?

RC (very faint): Goal-oriented?

DB: Goal-oriented, yes.

AH/S(?) (faint): Yeah.

AH: In some sense personal.

S (very faint): Uh-huh.

S: The levels of concentra-- the concentration, what [RC simultaneously: Well--] the visualizations would develop?

RC: I don't know that it necessarily has any moral implications. It seems to be more the difference between operating with the finitizing function(s) as opposed to trying to open inwardly to that which can't be finitized. I don't know that the first stage means that, you know, you're ambitious or you're not pure or this or that, it just means that your mind is working in a different direction. It's working to objectify something. Whereas in the second stage, or what he's calling the truer way of meditation, he's seeking for an influx or a communion with something which cannot be represented with that other direction of the mind. You're going inward instead of outward.

AH: He speaks about surrender of all of those personal interests to the Overself.

RC: Yeah.

S: What are the three [couple words inaudible]

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.131 & Persp., Ch. 4 #13, RC rereads a part of]: "…prayerful aspiration, loving devotion, and mental quiet."

[11½ second pause]

AH: Randy, could you read it once more?

RC: Yeah. Yeah, there's one elsewhere that makes you bring into the relation that--

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.131 & Persp., Ch. 4 #13, RC rereads]: "The novice must be warned that certain ways of practising concentration, such as visualizing diagrams or repeating declarations, as well as emptying the mind to seek guidance, must not be confused with the true way of meditation. This has no other object than to surrender the ego to the Overself and uses no other method than prayerful aspiration, loving devotion, and mental quiet."

[14 second pause]

JB: Randy? Is this suggesting that those are not proper means of training concentration either or just that they shouldn't be confused with meditation?

RC: All I can get out of this is just that they shouldn't be confused.

S: Yeah.

JB: (That/But) there is a-- it seems to be an implicit negative on them but it's only--

S (faint): I don't think so.

JB: That level one should not be confused with level two.

S: Right.

RC: No, Anthony used to say sometimes, it doesn't matter what you concentrate on, you can concentrate on a doorknob if you want. But, if you want to meditate then certain thing are more appropriate.

S (faint): [couple/three words inaudible] concentration or the first step for the novice and then the meditation.

S (faint): Yeah, that's right.

RC: If you can't concentrate, you certainly won't meditate.

S (very faint): Right, tremendous--

[short pause]

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:3.118 & Persp., Ch. 4 #52, RC reading]: "The state of concentration acquired during a worldly pursuit…"

RC: This is very important.

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:3.118 & Persp., Ch. 4 #52, RC reading]: "The state of concentration acquired during a worldly pursuit differs from that acquired during mystical meditation in that the first is usually directed toward outward things and the experience of sense-pleasures, whereas the second is directed toward inward being and rejects sense-pleasures. Thus the two states are at opposite poles--one belonging to the ego-seeking man, and the other to the Overself-seeking man."

[short pause]

AD: In other words, don't tell me you're concentrating when you're playing tennis, huh? (bit of laughter)

RC: He could say he's concentrating. (bit of laughter)

RG: How about when you're thinking, Anthony?

VM: I knew (that was coming). (laughter)

S: Even when you're thinking about playing tennis.

S (very faint): [couple words inaudible]

S: We're not playing tennis.

RG: Right.

S: Well I--

S (simultaneously): [couple words inaudible] now. (bit of laughter)

S: What is--

S: Uh-hm.

PD: Depends who you're playing tennis with, Dickie. (bit of laughter)

RG: What?

PD: It depends who you're playing tennis with.

S: Aha.

S (very faint): Maybe he just likes [few words inaudible]

VM (simultaneously): T. Subba Row.

RG: Right. No but A-- Anthony, I don't--

[few seconds of background student talking, laughter]

S (faint): Tennis involved the ego.

RG: No, it's very-- I mean-- What about thinking? I mean it seems in the other passages we-- we (were--/read) thinking directed towards philosophic topics would be considered the-- the proper realm for concentration. Or not?

AD: Yes, as soon as you deal with a universal.

RG: Ok, so that was [AD simultaneously: Yeah.] the criteria.

AD: Becau-- yeah.

[15¾ second pause]

ANYTIME YOU FEEL A PULL COMING FROM THE HEART, A MELTING SENSATION, A HEIGHTENING OF INTENSE CONCENTRATION, DROP WHATEVER YOU'RE DOING AND JUST LET IT LEAD YOU

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.411 & Persp., Ch. 4 #36, RG reading]: "He need not get either perturbed or puzzled if, after a certain period of the session has elapsed and a certain depth of concentration reached, there is a momentary disappearance of consciousness. This will be a prologue to, as well as a sign of, entrance into the third state, contemplation. The immediate after-effect of the lapse is somewhat like that which follows deep dreamless sleep. There is a delicious awakening into a mind very quiet, emotions gently stilled, and nerves greatly soothed."

[11 second pause]

PB [V15, 23:7.112, RG reading]: "In this state the thought-making activity comes to an end, the intellect itself is absorbed in the still centre of being, and a luminous peace enfolds the man."

[short pause]

PB [V15, 23:7.112, RG rereads]: "In this state the thought-making activity comes to an end, the intellect itself is absorbed in the still centre of being, and a luminous peace enfolds the man."

[10½ second pause]

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:3.195 & Persp., Ch. 4 #17, RG reading]: "It would be a serious error to believe that he is to continue with any particular exercise or chosen theme, with any special declaration or analysis or question, no matter what happens in the course of a session. On the contrary; if at any moment he feels the onset of deeper feelings, [or stronger aspirations, or notable peace, he ought to stop the exercise or abandon the method and give himself up entirely to the interior visitant. He ought to have no hesitation and no fear in considering himself free to do so]."

[Audio File 1983 0831a Ends]

[Audio File 1983 0831b Begins]

[13½ second pause]

S (faint): (Do it) again.

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:4.18 & Persp., Ch. 4 #60, RG reading]: "The Overself takes his thoughts about it, limited and remote though they are, and guides them closer and closer to its own high level. Such illumined thinking is not the same as ordinary thinking. Its qualitative height and mystical depth are immensely superior. But when his thoughts can go no farther, the Overself's Grace touches and silences them. In that moment he knows."

[10 second pause]

LR: Dickie?

RG: Hm?

LR: The-- could you repeat the pre-- the previous one please?

S (very faint): The previous one.

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:3.195 & Persp., Ch. 4 #17, RG rereads]: "It would be a serious error to believe that he is to continue with any particular exercise or chosen theme, with any special declaration or analysis or question, no matter what happens in the course of a session. On the contrary; if at any moment he feels the onset of deeper feelings, or stronger aspirations, or notable peace, he ought to stop the exercise or abandon the method and give himself up entirely to the interior visitant. He ought to have no hesitation and no fear in considering himself free to do so."

LR: Obviously it's a very tricky--

AD: No Linda, we spoke about this, any time you feel a pull coming from the heart, melting sensation, a heightening of intense concentration, drop whatever you're doing and just let it lead you. I have specifically told people over and over again, any time that happens, jump the exercise and let it lead you. You can't ask for any better guidance than when that takes over. [short pause] That's usually the onset of a glimpse.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE OVERSELF, IT WILL START TO GUIDE AND ELEVATE YOUR THINKING ABOUT IT

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:4.18 & Persp., Ch. 4 #60, RG rereads a part of]: "Such illumined thinking [RG aside: (Thank you.)] [is not the same as ordinary thinking]. Its qualitative height and mystical depth are immensely superior. But when his thoughts can go no farther, the Overself's Grace touches and silences them. In that moment he knows."

[short pause]

AH: Is that to suggest that the closer the thought gets to perfect stillness, the more successful, the more quality is in the thought?

AD: No what he's saying there is that if you think about the Overself, even though it's very childish and primitive in the beginning, generally what happens is that some-- the Overself takes that into consideration and starts guiding your thinking and elevates the quality of the thought. And eventually it refines it. And through this long process the thoughts are brought to such an extreme refinement and precision that they can finally stop. It's actually the Overself taking a hand in the game, helping you to think through. And that's why I wanted the first part read, I didn't follow that. (Would) you read that first sentence, Dickie?

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:4.18 & Persp., Ch. 4 #60, RG rereads a part of]: "The Overself takes his thoughts about it, limited and remote though they are, and guides them closer and closer to its own high level."

AD: Ok? So that the efforts we make at trying to understand the nature of the soul, even though they are very often childish, and a person may even at times say all this talk about soul is getting us nowhere, that's not quite true. It does play a hand in the game. [short pause] Alright, Dickie.

[short pause]

PB [Persp., Ch. 4 #19, RG reading]: "During this brief period he is…"

S (very faint): Wait, read this.

CONSTANT MEDITATION ON THE OVERSELF BRINGS YOU INTO RELATIONSHIP WITH IT

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.136, RG reading]: "Meditation rises to its proper level when the meditator thinks only of the relation or the aspiration between himself and the Overself, and it rises to its supreme level when he drops even such ideas and thinks of nothing save the Overself."

[short pause]

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.136, RG rereads]: "Meditation rises to its proper level when the meditator thinks only of the relation or the aspiration between himself and the Overself, and it rises to its supreme level when he drops even such ideas and thinks of nothing save the Overself."

HS: What does that mean to say, "Think of the Overself?"

[9½ second pause]

SC: Would that mean that it's still in the second stage as opposed to the third stage, the stage of meditation, because there's still some separation, although the thought is pure thought of the Overself?

S (faint): Yeah.

DB: Wasn't he-- I mean isn't the implication that-- I mean, like you're saying that the-- this is a very unique kind of thought because most every thought we have is compounded of an-- part object and part subject element, reference to the-- to the object. But in-- but in these particular kinds of thoughts there isn't any projected reference, they still keep them as thoughts but it isn't the fact that we're concerned about our relationship to the Overself, it's thought of the Overself without our own-- our own subjectivity as being part of it.

AD (very faint): Yes, that's good.

AH (simultaneously): (Or--) or without making the Overself an object

RC: And if it's related too to what Anthony was saying before about [students assent] the confusion of the introspection into your own nature and when the discursive function takes it over, that I really think that he-- might be wrong, but I really think that in this quote he's talking more about the first when he-- when he's saying thinking here. See I have a hard time distinguishing, lots of times when the word 'think' is used, if he means that you're directing the fullness of your attention towards something, or if he means that you're allowing your conceptual discursive faculty to come into play.

HS: So the stage now-- the stage of meditation where you-- didn't you say you were thinking of the Overself.

RC: Yeah, I would take it as like directing your-- well-- well you could use a lot of words, spiritual vitality, the centeredness of your attention.

HS: You'd say the Overself is in sight though at that time?

RC: 'Sight' would be a wrong word.

HS: Inner-- inner-- inner sight. Is (it/there) actual object of the attention?

RC: It would never be an object.

HS: Yeah so like yeah, ok good, well, so what does he mean like when you think of the Overself?

RC: No, I'd conceptualize it in terms of like being in a magnetic field and like focusing on the source of the attraction.

HS: Ok. What does it mean like focu-- what-- like what's the source of the attraction? You're focusing on feeling? Or are you focusing on-- on what now?

RC (faint): Well [one word inaudible] says that that's where it would happen.

VM: Don't know why, that I-- that seems like a very advanced situation to speak about. Can't you think-- can't you consider the idea of thinking about the Overself is something like last Friday night, we were discussing the soul, [S: Soul.] we spent a lot of time discussing the notion of soul as both divisible and indivisible. Now at least it starts out at the conceptual level, what do those words mean and so on. But then, I'd guess part of the intent is that you-- after you grasp it, at least conceptually, to then try and interiorize the-- the process and hold it as a sort of a unit thought in a concentrated way and progress from there. I don't know, maybe I'm off the mark but it seems like that's the (goal), at least the initial--

HS (simultaneously): What do you mean by hold it as a unit thought though?

VM: Well I mean, unit thought in the sense it's-- you don't just follow out a whole lot of strands and run here and there but it's held as a-- as a unity in some way and it's concentrated on.

AH: So you can't-- that interpretation certainly is plausible but-- but one thing that bothers me in the quote he says it defies-- describes that state as a supreme one.

[students assent, very faint]

S: What's--

AH: Like the thought of just the Overself is like he use(d) as supreme.

RG: The supreme level of meditation.

AH: Supreme level of meditation.

S (faint): Well--

RG (simultaneously): Not the supreme level of contemplation.

AH: Of meditation.

RG: Yeah [VM simultaneously: It's the intermediate state.] this is of meditation, the middle-- the middle (stage).

AH: So in proper meditation as distinguished from supreme meditation [couple words inaudible] you fix the mind on one thought.

PD: Well that's concentration. [RG simultaneously: Well what-- Let's read.] That is what we did last week [AH simultaneously: Yeah.] when we spoke of the stages of concentration, and that the last stage of concentration was that you were able to put your mind out of focus in a non-- and still be aware. And at the stages of meditation now you-- you're intensely contemplating a meaning in the realm of ideas but in a non-ego focused manner.

HS: Ok now the-- now the-- in meditation now, the object of intense meditation is now the Overself. Or is it?

RG: But let's read the quote again now.

PD (simultaneously): The thought of the Overself.

HS: Yeah, ok, the thought of the Overself. [PD: Ok.] What does that mean, something, what does that mean to think of the Overself?

PD: Well, what does the Overself mean?

AD: Well what do you do when you sit down in a restaurant and you're having coffee, what do you think about Herbie?

HS: What do I think about?

AD: Yes, yes, yeah.

HS: (I think/I'm thinking) about the Overself. (laughter)

AD: You got-- you got the point. (more laughter) You could think about a lot of other things. (some laughter)

S (very faint): (Exactly.)

AD (faint): (Gotcha.) (bit more laughter)

HS: Depends if (you're/we're) thinking about [one word inaudible]

VM (simultaneously): Thinking about (we) don't have any coffee.

RG: But I mean you can.

AD: Well I mean you could think about a new car, you could think about a new girl, you could think about a new job, you know, you could think about all these things. [HS simultaneously: Ok but, and those ideas--] And qualitatively it doesn't seem that it would be any different. "Oh I'm going to think about the Overself." But you keep doing it for a while and you're going to see something happen.

HS: Ok so-- ok fine so you could start with your mind, so to say, your everyday mind, and you're just talking about thinking about your Overself.

AD: That ought to be a novelty.

AH: But-- but after you think about it just a little bit you begin to realize the Overself is trace-- is traced logically to the subject rather than any kind of object thought. Like you-- you don't have to think about it a whole lot to get to--

AD: Yeah, you have to think about it a whole lot, Andrew. (bit of laughter) We've been thinking about it for ten years.

AH: See I'm-- [couple words inaudible]

PD (simultaneously): But some-- some mystics say it's been-- it's-- it's the non-ego [AH: Yeah.] though, I mean--

RG: I think, you know-- Could I try? I think PB's talking about-- In the first part of the--

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.136, RG rereads]: "Meditation [AD/S(?) simultaneously: Read it, read it.] rises to its proper level when the meditator thinks only of the relation or the aspiration between himself and the Overself, and it rises to its supreme level when he drops even such ideas and thinks of nothing save the Overself."

RG: It seems like in the first one he's dwelling on the problem of reflective consciousness itself.

AD: Was that the first part, Dickie?

RG: The first part was the--

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.136, RG rereads a part of]: "…the meditator thinks only of the relation [or the aspiration] between himself and the Overself…"

PD: Read that whole sentence again, Dickie.

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.136, RG rereads a part of]: "Meditation rises to its proper level when the meditator thinks only of the relation or the aspiration between himself and the Overself…"

PD: Is he saying aspiration is the relationship between the two?

RG: I think he's saying that thinking could be the relation or aspiration could be depending on whether you're in a knowing mode or a feeling mode. And that they're both characterized at the level of reflective consciousness and that's the very problem in this stage that you're confronted with. You're con-- you're contemplating. How can the reflective mind at all think of-- contemplate the idea of the Overself which is both unthinkable and unrelatable.

S: Uh-hm.

LR: Well I-- I would further say that at that beginning stage the Overself is, the thought of the Overself is objective.

RG: Yeah.

S (faint): Yeah.

LR: You're not identified with it, I mean it's-- [S simultaneously: Well (in that case--)] Or the problem of the Overself could never be an object, that's a different [VM/S(?) simultaneously, faint: That's a different (one word inaudible) later (about this), yeah.] kind of problem, at this-- at this point it is-- it is an object that you're trying to attain.

DB: Yeah but the o-- the point is that the object in that particular meditation, at the proper level of meditation isn't the Overself, it's the relationship between the meditator and the Overself. Supreme level of the meditation is when the relationship between the person who's meditating, when that has stopped and there's only the thought of the Overself, whatever that is to be understood as meaning.

AH: But that's where I get lost. What would that thought be, like the thought of space or thought of purity or-- [few faint inaudible student words simultaneous with AH] Like what kind of a thought is that?

RC/S(?) (faint): [few words inaudible]

AD: Well I'm sorry, I misunderstood the quote, the-- my previous remarks about it are mistaken. Yes Dickie what you said is that there's a-- meditation here at the reflective level, like for instance if you've undertaken a meditation on the reflective level, now we're speaking the second stage, you're meditating, and that means that your-- you may have for a theme let's say love, the love that the Overself has, alright. And constant meditation on that brings you into relationship with the Overself. Now in that reflective consciousness you are not to think of it the way you think of your kind of thinking that goes on here. It's-- it's not the same thinking, I think I tried to point that out last week. If you could conceive of a universal idea such as love, compassion, any of these universal attributes that the Overself has, and you take one of them as your theme, then the reflective meditation on them, the second stage of meditation brings about such a close-- almost an identity with that attribute. Can you follow this far?

RG: Uh-hm.

AD: You experience it not in the ordinarily discursive way that you experience something when we deal with it in concepts. Because there it isn't a vital living meaning that you experience but more like a corpse. But the actual experience of let's say meditating on compassion is that you get filled with compassion, you become compassion, and that brings you closer and closer to identity with the Overself. When the identity with the compassion or love is complete, the second stage is passed and you're in the third stage.

AH: That third stage being the "supreme" reference in this quote?

AD: Yeah.

S (very faint): Of meditation, yeah.

AH: Of meditation.

AD: Yeah.

RG: So then, in that, there would be an unbroken presence of that content and quality.

AD (simultaneously): Yes, yeah. Assuming that it was successful, yes.

RC: Yeah in [S simultaneously: But--] terms of the way he uses those words though, we haven't read any of them so far but often he does use meditation as the generic term that includes the three stages and he'll talk about meditation, conscious-- concentration, meditation proper and contemplation.

AH: Randy, can we hear it once more after hearing the explanation?

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:1.136, RG rereads]: "Meditation rises to its proper level when the meditator thinks only of the relation or the aspiration between himself and the Overself, and it rises to its supreme level when he drops even such ideas and thinks of nothing save the Overself."

[short pause]

AH: So what is proper is to meditate on a theme of compassion or-- or life. [couple words inaudible] universal. If that's successful, the next supreme result of the meditation is identification with the Overself.

AD: Well he calls that there this-- the highest level of meditation. [student assents, faint] So that wouldn't bring in the Overself yet. [RG simultaneously: It says think--] If I followed, if I followed what he said there.

RG: Yes, he-- it says he thinks of nothing but the Overself, [AD: Yeah.] it doesn't say he's [one/two words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): So he's still in the meditative state.

RG: Yeah he's not a-- uh-hm.

DB: Plus I think the point is there that that thought is a very unique and rare type of thought to experience because there isn't-- the personal subjectivity is not a part of that thought. It doesn't include that at all.

[students assent, very faint]

RG: Yeah, there's no reference to-- to the function of mental organ that's being used to-- to contemplate and concentrate.

AD (simultaneously): It's still there. No, it's still there.

RG: But there's no reference to it.

AD: Yeah, but it's still there.

RG: Well, right.

S (very faint): Yeah.

S (faint): Yeah.

AD: It doesn't go away until you get to the stillness.

RG: Right. It's still there because he's thinking.

AD: Yeah. Very hard for us to understand the gamut, the range that ego has.

[15¼ second pause]

HS: So this mi-- this-- the meditation on the thought of the Overself, the mind that would be pre-- the mind then becomes like-- it's-- it's not something-- you're not doing the attributes, as you said before, the compassion or the love that it contains? But what-- I don't (understand).

TS (very faint): Yeah (of course).

[short pause]

AH: Now what was-- what is the content of that thought, the essence of compassion? I-- I'm having a hard time understanding that "supreme" reference. I understood the explanation of taking up a theme like compassion and becoming one with it.

RG: Well, but I think that is the supreme level. Otherwise, Anthony, what would the first one (mean), he thinks only of the relation between himself and the Overself?

AD: Well I think that they're both in the stages of meditation because if you start out in meditation and you pick up the theme of compassion and it culminates in identifying with this universal, that is compassion, alright, you still have a subject there. You still-- your ego is still functioning. You're very clearly aware of the fact when you come out that you had that experience and you were having that experience. So I don't see it as supreme. A supreme experience is when even the subject is excluded.

RG: Right.

S: He's just saying--

AD: And by subject I mean here the ego no matter at what range we're speaking about it.

RG: Right, he's just saying this is the highest level of the-- of the stage of meditation.

AD: Yeah, and after that you'll rea-- after that it's the realm of no-perception.

[12 second pause]

IN MEDITATION, AFTER YOU'VE LEFT BEHIND THE BODY-THOUGHT, YOU WILL PENETRATE DEEPER AND DEEPER, BUT IT GETS DARKER AND DARKER

PB [V15, 23:8.7 & Persp., Ch. 23 #49, RG reading]: "The inner movement is like no other which he has experienced for it must guide itself, must move forward searchingly into darkness without knowing where it will arrive. He must take some chances here, yet he need not be afraid. They will be reasonable and safe chances if he abides by the advice given in these pages."

S (incredibly faint): Dickie, read it again.

PB [V15, 23:8.7 & Persp., Ch. 23 #49, RG rereads]: "The inner movement is like no other which he has experienced for it must guide itself, must move forward searchingly into darkness without knowing where it will arrive. [short pause] He must take some chances here, yet he need not be afraid. They will be reasonable and safe chances if he abides by the advice given in these pages."

[short pause]

AD: If we could use a picture. If you could imagine yourself in an absolutely dark room and you're moving around in the dark room hoping that you don't knock down a thirty thousand dollar vase or something, alright, in a similar way when you're meditating and you're probing and you've left behind the body-thought, you'll experience a similar thing where you know-- you know you're making a movement, you're penetrating deeper and deeper but it's getting darker and darker. And there are no signposts, there's no fences, there's no guide, no (directing). But you're just probing deeper and deeper. And, it's usually successful. Because it's not that random as you may think after you've gone-- You can see that there's almost like an invisible magnet drawing that probing towards itself. But when that's going on you have no awareness of it and so you feel as though you have no compass, you don't know what's going on.

LR: What are the things you can run into?

AD (laughing): Linda. (laughter)

RG: Set yourself up for that. (bit of laughter)

LR: I thought it was [few words inaudible]

[few seconds of faint background student talking, bit of laughter]

AD: Usually I would say Linda the biggest thing you run into is disappointment.

LR: No but you made it sound, maybe it's pushing the analogy, but you made it sound like there are things in that darkness that you really wouldn't want to knock into.

AD: Well, it feels like that.

LR: You mean-- are those things such as the astral, I mean is that the kind of--

AD: No, no. At this level I wouldn't worry about that.

LR: Oh.

[21 second pause]

EM: Do you mean the danger of disappointment is that you'll give up?

AD: Usually we do, yeah. [students assent, faint] You could be doing that for some length of time and you can come out very exhausted, very tired. You feel that you've achieved nothing.

[10½ second pause]

LR: Do you mean like there's no light there at the end of the darkness, it just-- it keeps going?

AD (simultaneously): Well, it seems like you're in a dark tunnel that doesn't have a light at the end.

LR (faint): Right.

[16¼ second pause]

AD: At times it can be quite an adventure.

[9 second pause]

HS: This kind of movement in the mind, is this-- this is within the stage of meditation?

AD: Yeah, it's a movement of the mind in the depths, alright, and you don't know where it's going.

AH: Anthony, are we speaking about thought?

AD (simultaneously): But you do know that you have to go on pushing it deeper and deeper.

[short pause]

AH: Are we speaking here of the thought of darkness or--

AD: No, I'm not speaking about the thought of darkness, that wouldn't scare me.

AH: Is there some sort of ontic darkness?

AD: I don't know what you mean by ontic. But it's for real.

[short pause]

AH: It-- is thought functioning in this experience?

AD: Yes, it's still functioning. That's why I told you to try remember that statement, the one that we gave four stars to, Randy. [RC, faint: Uh-hm.] The one about where until you reach the stillness you're not rid of the ego. The one we gave four stars to. [students assent, faint] Every now and then, you know, like periodically just read it. (laughter) You know, randomly just-- you got nothing to read, turn to that, read it. (AD laughing a bit)

RC: There's a-- there's a lot more left that I'm trying to wrap up. I think I want-- Wondering if we should do that one that Carol had on the stages of (meditation).

AD (simultaneously): Go ahead, go ahead.

THE FIVE STAGES OF THE PHILOSOPHICAL METHOD

RC: This actually takes a step beyond most of the quotes we've talked about. Let me just read two more short ones and then read that one. Um--

PB [V15, 23:8.54, RC reading]: "Without dramatic happening or sensational incident [RC reads: incidents], the mind slips at long last into the Great Silence."

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:3.197, RC reading]: "This is the stage of adoration…"

AD: That one Randy is beautiful, because that's the way it is.

AH/S(?): Yeah.

AD: Nobody is going to announce it, no curtain calls, no drum rolls. It's about the most silent thing that could happen.

[10¼ second pause]

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:3.197, RC reading]: "This is the stage of adoration, when the Overself's beauty and tranquility begin to take possession of his heart. He should then cease from any further thinking discursively about it or communing verbally with it. It is a time for complete inner silence. Let him engage himself solely in beholding, loving, and eventually uniting with the gracious source of these feelings."

[short pause]

S: Again Randy.

S (faint): Yeah.

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:3.197, RC rereads]: "This is the stage of adoration, when the Overself's beauty and tranquility begin to take possession of his heart. He should then cease from any further thinking discursively about it or communing verbally with it. It is a time for complete inner silence. Let him engage himself solely in beholding, loving, and eventually uniting with the gracious source of these feelings."

[short pause]

PB [V4, Part 1, 4:7.22, RC reading]: "The higher purpose of meditation is missed if it does not end in the peace, the stillness, that emanates from the real self. However slightly it may be felt, this is the essential work which meditation must do for us."

S (very faint): Randy would you read the first one (you said), the one (I think Anthony--)

PB [V15, 23:8.54, RC rereads]: "Without dramatic happening or sensational incident [RC reads: incidents], the mind slips at long last into the Great Silence."

[11 second pause]

RC: Well this one is going to be hard.

S (faint): Oh.

S (faint): What [one word inaudible] or is that [few words inaudible]

RC: These are all from volume 3, the orange one in the library, all within the first sixty pages so far.

S (very faint): Uh-hm.

RC: I don't know where this one's from, Carol had it. I think it's 20.

AD: She's not here.

PB [V13, 20:4.63, RC reading]: "There is a little confusion in some minds as to the precise differences between philosophic meditations and ordinary meditation. The following note is intended to help clear up this matter. There are five [RC reads: four] stages in the philosophic method."

S (simultaneously): Five.

RC: Yeah? Ok.

PB [V13, 20:4.63 cont., RC reading]: "There are five stages in the philosophic method." (bit of laughter)

S: Carol put a note.

S: There must be if they're--

PB [V13, 20:4.63 cont., RC reading]: "The first four of these stages cover the same ground as those in traditional mysticism. [students assent, faint] It is in the last stage that a vital difference appears. In stage one, the student learns to concentrate his faculties, thoughts, and power of attention. He must fix beforehand any object for his gaze, or any subject for his thoughts, or any theme for his feelings. This provides a post, as it were, to which the horse of his mind can be tethered and to which it can be made to return again and again each time it strays away. In stage two, he must definitely drop the use of his bodily senses and external objects, withdraw his attention entirely within himself and devote it exclusively to considered thinking about and devotional aspiration to his spiritual quest, making use only of an elevating idea or ideal as a tethering post. In stage three, he is to reverse this method, for he is not to fix beforehand any theme for thought, not even to predetermine the way in which his contemplation shall develop itself. His conscious mind is to be thoroughly free from any and every [RC adds: kind of] suggestion from the thinking self, even if it be of the purest kind. For everything must here be left entirely to the higher power. In stage four, the student unites completely with his higher self and its infinite universality, drops all personal thinking, even all personal being. In stage five, it might be said that he returns to the first two and recapitulates them, for he reintroduces thinking and therefore ego. But there is a notable difference. The thinking will be, first, [RC reads: will first be] illumined by the higher self's light, and second, directed towards the understanding of Reality."

S (faint): Uh-hm.

S (faint): Yeah.

[short pause]

S (very faint, possibly part of background): [couple/three words inaudible]

S (very faint, possibly part of background): Uh-hm.

S (very faint, possibly part of background): (Yeah but) last week.

S (faint): (Read) the whole thing.

VM: Read the whole thing.

PB [V13, 20:4.63, RC rereads]: "There is a little confusion in some minds as to the precise differences between philosophic meditations and ordinary meditation. The following note is intended to help clear up this matter. There are five stages in the philosophic method. The first four of these stages cover the same ground as those in traditional mysticism. It is in the last stage that a vital difference appears. In stage one, the student learns to concentrate his faculties, thoughts, and power of attention. He must fix beforehand any object for his gaze, or any subject for his thoughts, or any theme for his feelings. This provides a post, as it were, to which the horse of his mind can be tethered and to which it can be made to return again and again each time it strays away. In stage two, he must definitely drop the use of his bodily senses and external objects, withdraw his attention entirely within himself and devote it exclusively to considered thinking about and devotional aspiration to his spiritual quest, making use only of an elevating idea or ideal as a tethering post. In stage three, he is to reverse this method, for he is not to fix beforehand any theme for thought, not even to predetermine the way [in] which his contemplation shall develop itself. His conscious mind is to be thoroughly free from any and every suggestion from the thinking self, even if it be of the purest kind. For everything must here be left entirely to the higher power. In stage four, the student unites completely with his higher self and its infinite universality, drops all personal thinking, even all personal being. In stage five, it might be said that he returns to the first two and recapitulates them, for he reintroduces thinking and therefore ego. But there is a notable difference. The thinking will be, first, [RC reads: will first be] illumined by the higher self's light, and second, directed towards the understanding of Reality."

[12 second pause]

AS (faint): He has a few like that one. [student assents] And experiencing--

S (very faint): What, Avery?

AS (faint): To experience and learn through, you know-- In that new volume [one/two words inaudible]

PC/S(?) (very faint): Yeah. He speaks about (they've got) [one word inaudible] You probably have this.

S (very faint): [few words inaudible]

[students assent, very faint]

[short pause]

THE PHILOSOPHIC SAGE HAS ACHIEVED IDENTITY WITH THE ALL-CONSCIOUSNESS AND THEN APPLIES THAT UNDERSTANDING TO THE PARTICULAR SITUATION THAT MANKIND FINDS ITSELF IN

AS (faint): There are a lot of-- there are several, I don't know if there are a lot, there are several where he speaks of this distinction between the mystic and the philosopher and he keeps-- the highest mystic goes-- goes into what he calls the fourth one or what he (calls/called) [AD/S(?), very faint: Yeah.] the Void state. He says the difference is [couple words inaudible] either that the philosopher then uses this as an opportunity to do away with ego or that the philosopher now goes on to try and understand the nature of the World-Idea. He is not satisfied with remaining in this quiescent contemplation but now wants to go even further to comprehend the nature of the World-Idea and therefore brings back, but in this illumined way of thinking about it. And that this seems to lead to what he called that state where he says whether thinking or not thinking. The mystic is content to be in the state when he's not thinking. The philosopher seems to want to remain in that state even when he is thinking.

AD: Yeah we had a discussion about this once before. We spoke about the fact that the Sage once having achieved insight now comes back and examines the world, World-Idea and ego and everything else with this-- with this grasp of reality and I don't know if that's misleading but-- Now that he understood the nature of reality he brings that into the first and second stages. We have spoken about this. I don't remember the-- the particular quote. But unless, unless the-- you know, philosophic Sage is the one who has achieved that identity with the All-consciousness and then brings that and applies that understanding to the particular situation that mankind finds itself in. Do you remember we had that [RC: Yeah.] once before?

AS: Yeah. One of them was based on that quote we-- we had that-- whether thinking or not thinking.

S (very faint): Yeah, ok.

S (very faint): Uh-hm.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MYSTIC AND A PHILOSOPHIC MYSTIC

AD: In terms of the comparison with Plotinus we pointed out that the soul has these two aspects, one is the faculty of insight and the other one was the faculty of understanding. And the faculty of understanding will bring you to a point where you do develop insight, let's say you-- Now that you have developed insight, now you bring it down again into the faculty of understanding and you will-- you will understand quite differently than before. So there's the difference here of course between the mystic and the philosophic mystic. Because the philosophic mystic is going to bring to bear on the World-Idea, alright, the philosophic understanding or the philosophic insight that he has acquired. It's quite--

AS: Could I ask-- This may, in terms of the quote from what-- this is kind of-- The question-- a question came up with respect to this-- with this difference. I mean, there's an understanding that if the dee-- in some sense the deepest possible level is attained by the mystic, [AD: Yeah.] in the sense that this is his-- this is reality, you can't-- it can't be more real anymore. [AD: Uh-hm.] But then there's some notion that the philosopher goes further, and the question is whether you could speak of it as a distinction within the insight or whether it's that he's actually applying it to the reasoning, so the distinction is really in terms of that he's applying it to reason. In other words, it isn't that the insight deepens. Or that there are different levels of insight?

AD: Uh-hm, yes.

AS: But that it's now this very insight which is insight, I don't know where it is, is applied to the world of manifestation rather than being left to remain in the state of voidness. In a sense-- [AD simultaneously: Well that's (one word inaudible)] Is that the way you would understand? In other words, that-- this seems to be suggesting that the difference is not in terms of levels of insight, insofar as you can't speak of levels of insight either. If this insight is into the nature of reality then it is what it is. And the difference is in terms of what it's applied to? Trying to-- There was still some problem formulating exactly-- Is there some problem on this formulation? In other words, the mystic has-- he-- he knows the essence of the soul, he knows it by being. And insofar as he does, that's reality. And in a sense it's the highest-- the deepest reality that he attains. But the philosopher goes further, not in terms of a deeper reality but almost in terms of a wider application of this.

AD: Yeah.

AS: And that's what he's saying is--

AD: Yeah.

AS: There's not a distinction (when you're speaking) of the insight. The insight is into reality in itself.

AD (simultaneously): Let's take the position of the mystic who's come to the realization that all is Mind, all is consciousness, alright? That is not going to help the ordinary man in the street, that's not going to help even the intellectual. The mystic also has to be able to communicate to him the fact that all is consciousness and also he has to communicate to him the fact that the appearance has a certain order in arising, that it's a meaningful appearance, it's the evolution of the World-Idea, and that these two have to be brought parallel to each other. Remember we spoke about this as the two views necessary in order to comprehend non-duality? It's not enough to say that everything is non-dual, that all there is is pure Mind, alright? Because you still have the fact of explaining the ordinary experiences that a person has. So you have to have this double standpoint in philosophy which the Buddhists refer to as, you know, conventional and ultimate truth and the Hindus refer to as empirical and ultimate, and he's bringing that out here, that these two points of view are required in order for-- for us to speak about a philosophic Sage, a philosophic my-- mystic. If the position is taken that everything is non-dual and that there's only Mind and everything is illusion, he throws that out. Yeah, go ahead.

AS: Ok what-- I follow that but there's a-- Then-- further then, if you have somebody say like Plotinus or PB, they take the point of [couple words inaudible] and he-- he explicates the nature of the Divine Mind itself. Ok whereas normally like we say-- we're saying, the mystic has the same experience of his own essence, ok. Plotinus is saying it doesn't have an effect on your deeper experience of that Divine Mind but somehow he's able to articulate that experience. And that would be because of the fact that he's gone further to apply this insight in conjunction with reason rather than the fact [AD simultaneously: Uh-hm.] that he's gotten at some deeper [S, faint: Yeah.] insight into the Divine Mind? Or is that not a proper--

AD (simultaneously): No, the insight would be the same for [AS simultaneously: Yes, uh-huh.] both the mystic and the philosophic Sage. It's-- insight is--

AS: (Is it.)

AD: You know, your-- your identity with [AS simultaneously: Right.] Mind itself.

AS: I'm just-- I was just trying to say that, it's not just that he-- nothing-- he explains the World-Idea, that is he under-- he understands the nature of the appearing, but also seems to gain this articulate knowledge through that of the prior to his soul, let's say-- I mean he's able to deliver insight-- he's able to deliver articulate reasoning knowledge about the Divine Mind whereas the mystic can't, he can experience that [couple words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): Yeah and if-- if you-- if you remember PB even had these things like listed, he had I think the Saint, the Prophet, [AS, faint: Yeah, I know.] the Sage, the Philosopher-Sage. [AS simultaneously, very faint: And the Philosopher.] I think he had five levels. [AS simultaneously: Uh-hm. What if in one of them (couple words inaudible)] And he points out that the last level is the man who has this insight and brings it to bear on the problem.

(Side 1 of original cassette tape digitized as 1983 0831b Ends; Side 2 Begins)

[Note: Pat C 1983 Partial transcript has the following line. "Tape flipped; section lost having to do with the insight also being brought to others, with the Sage being inwardly vision-bent but outwardly making available this understanding.")]

AD: --understanding. So-- It's a-- it's a-- something we've discussed quite often when I pointed out that if non-duality is un-- understood only in the sense that everything is reducible to Mind, we're taking a one-sided view. Because we also are going to have to explain the appearances which arise within Mind and that too has to be included in order to have a complete philosophy. Whereas to reduce everything to Mind and let it go at that isn't going to help us. It's the discrepancy you'll find in the Vedanta for instance where you have these two aspects of man, one the simple aspect and the other the divine and they ignore the simple aspect and just concentrate on the divine aspect. And, that could be misleading.

PC: Anthony, isn't this not only a matter of explaining it to others but also that the insight doesn't necessarily even [one/two words inaudible] the knowledge of how manifestation arises, I mean--

AD (simultaneously): Yes, that's true too, that's true. Because [PC simultaneously: (He--)] insight has no such knowledge.

PC: We would have that insight and not really understand how there's a divine order to the manifestation of the World-Idea.

AD: Well it's intuitively felt and realized that there is such a divine order. But it's a lot of hard work to think it through and bring it out into the open. (It's only a/Its own) question-- like in the book, in the Enneads, he undertakes that problem, to work it out, so does PB undertakes [LH simultaneously: There's one--] to work it out.

LH: Is there too a corr-- a corresponding growth, or I don't know what the right word would be, but growth of the soul itself at that plane of Being or in the Divine Mind?

AD: I'm sorry, I don't follow.

LH: Well, I'm just-- we've spoken about the Divine Mind as being, you know, a-- an actual-- you know, a plane of being or as the Divine Ideas there, well it's spoken of the soul being born there and then growing in its-- in experience at that level. I'm trying to understand how on the one hand you can have that ultimate insight which would be the same for the mystic as the philosopher, but isn't there too at that level some kind of spiritual continuing or spiritual growth that-- [S simultaneously: I'm mad at you.] that happens?

AD: Spiritual processes that are taking place in the Divine Mind?

S (very faint): [one/two words inaudible] And would you repeat please?

S: Well--

LH: What's spoken of, you know, for example the soul, that second verse at that-- where-- when it's first introduced into-- or to Being, to pure knowing, it's inexperienced, it doesn't know that world.

AD: Yeah.

LH: It's almost as if that the Sage, the mystic, that-- that that would be part of the philosophic path too and that [AD: No, this--] the growth of understanding in that world--

AD: Even if he's not a philosophic Sage, if he's a Sage he knows his way.

LD: Weren't what you originally were talking about, the distinction between the mystic and the philosophic Sage, isn't what you were normally calling the mystic, isn't the distinction more between the Sage and the philosophic Sage? Because we [S simultaneously: Yeah.] never talk of the mystic as being permanently established. So it would be more the difference between a Sage and then that of the philosophic Sage.

AD (simultaneously): And the philosophic Sage, yeah. So PB would refer to and does refer to Ramana as a Sage.

LD: Yeah.

AD: But not a philosophic Sage.

LD (simultaneously): Yeah.

AD: And he refers (often). [LD simultaneously: But, a little more than a mystic.] Talked about him as a Sage but not [LD simultaneously: Yeah.] philosophic Sage.

[students assent, faint]

JfL: Along the same lines, Anthony, there was a-- a quote where PB, I think, uses Gandhi in fact as an example of a fully realized mystic. Would he be by the--

AD: No, you got to do better than that, you got to get me the quote.

S (faint): Yeah.

S (simultaneously, faint): Uh-hm.

AS: I mean, yeah, see--

S (faint): Uh-hm.

RC (faint): Well I do know where it's at.

AD: You got to get me the quote.

AS: Yeah, I know (where the) quote is talking about (knowledge).

AD: You know the quote?

AS (faint): I know where it is. It's in that-- well, it's-- it must not be the same quote, it's in that new-- new volume.

AD: In the new volume?

S (faint): Yeah.

S (faint): Uh-hm.

S (very faint): Wait.

AS: You don't remember it Richard, new volume?

RG: Yeah, yeah.

S (faint): Somewhere in there.

S (simultaneously): Well Richard read it, I mean--

AS: Yeah you have to read it 'cause it's the-- it's--

AD: Now, do you remember the quote then?

PB [V11, 16:2.91 & Persp., Ch. 16 #49, LR paraphrasing part of]: "Gandhi is a perfect illustration…" [The full quote reads as follows: "We personally believe that Gandhi is as self-realized a mystic as his contemporaries like Ramana Maharishi, Aurobindo, and Ramdas. His whole life and thought, his writing and speech, his deeds and service proclaim it. He himself has declared that he feels"the indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything" and that he is "surer of His existence than of the fact that you and I are sitting in this room." Then why is it that Gandhi's view of the world war was so widely different from Sri Aurobindo's, if both are divinely inspired men? The answer is that in Gandhi we find a perfect illustration of the defects of ordinary mysticism, of the insufficiency of its spiritual self-realization, and of the need for philosophical mysticism. There is no need to doubt, as so many doubt, that he is a genuine saint turned to the genuine service of humanity. But he has carried into that service the unbalance, the fanaticism, and the impracticality which mark so many saints throughout history. This conclusion may be unpalatable to some, but it is unavoidable. Perfect mystics are not the same as perfect beings. They are liable to error."]

S (very faint): Still don't know where the quote is. (laughter)

PB [V11, 16:2.91 & Persp., Ch. 16 #49, LR paraphrasing part of]: "Gandhi is a perfect illustration of the defects of ordinary mysticism. He is a saint serving humanity."

AD: Why go further?

PB [V11, 16:2.91 & Persp., Ch. 16 #49, LR paraphrasing part of]: "But unbalanced fanaticism seems to…"

AD (simultaneously): Well why go further? He tells you right there he's a saint.

AS: But we--

PB [V11, 16:2.91 & Persp., Ch. 16 #49, LR paraphrasing part of (simultaneously with S above)]: "Perfect mystics are not perfect beings."

AD: Yeah.

AS: But you know at the end of the quote, at least in twenty, I don't-- I don't know if this is the same one, he says that in real-- his-- in terms of his realization for himself it's the same. In terms of the-- the end of this quote.

AD (simultaneously): The same?

AS: That in term-- well I-- that's what I mean, we have-- we have to get the quote.

AD (simultaneously): Yeah you have to get the quote because I-- here's where my skepticism comes in.

S (faint): Well--

RC (very faint, possibly part of background): (Interesting.)

AS: What?

S (faint): (Try to) find something?

TS: I'm trying to find it.

S (faint): It's hard to hear.

S: Uh-hm.

S: Ok in terms of the words like Sage and philosophic Sage, Dalai Lama was once asked that same question. And he said well, in terms of insight it's more or less the same. The difference is basically a mystic or a yogi, he can like, you know-- he can deal with people directly in his environment or in his generation like that with his presence or with his-- he can both, you know, get [one word inaudible] (or--) almost with pointing language point out. Whereas the philosopher with his way of communicating can sort of present everything in such a way that can last for many many generations. And the more profound or complete sort of his philo-- philosophic aspect, then the longer will be the sort of wave of effects from the way he present things.

[students assent, faint]

[someone rings bell]

AD: Alright, you'll get that quote on that, ok? I'm curious to see.

S: I have it.

HS: (Yeah.)

AD: Thank you.

[couple seconds of background student talking]

[Audio File 1983 0831b Ends]