Sunday, October 9th, 1983

CLASS at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY

with Anthony Damiani (AD)

October 9, 1983

ASTROLOGY; MEDITATION; FERMI

TOPIC: Astrology

SUBJECT: Meditation

SUBSUBJECTS: Fermi natal chart (septiles), Mental Being

CONTENTS:

Contemplation and ego

The universal ideas at the level of the mental being are the faculty by which you can grasp the greater World-Idea

Some people inherit these universal ideas as part of their ego structure (Emerson, PB, etc.)

The more the universal qualities are operative, the less ego

Those who have experience of the Overself will recognize that experience in others

Transits = how the undivided mind is working

These universal ideas become the faculty by which you can understand the higher philosophy

A category of imagination is giving expression to an idea which is a universal in the Mind of the Earth

In contemplation you can become aware of the universal ideas that constitute your mental being

The identification with the body obscures the primal meanings that you inherit

Fermi natal chart, natal septiles

Pluto at Gemini 19, Moon at Aries 28

Pluto septile Moon: he came in with the recognition that there are fundamental laws that govern manifestation

Fermi wanted to know "What is the world?", not "Who am I?"

Sun at Libra 6 in sixth house: what he theoretically understands he will practically implement; sixth house is house of research, investigation

Venus at Scorpio 15, Jupiter at Capricorn 5

Venus septile Jupiter: ability to mobilize his energies to confront and understand whatever experience he is having; things can be understood

Mars at Scorpio 20: there's noumena behind the phenomena

Saturn at Capricorn 10: with knowledge comes responsibility; recognition of consequences

Saturn septile Mars: recognition of the consequences of pushing into the underlying secrets of matter

Discussion of Fermi's sense of responsibility/conscience

Jupiter at Capricorn 5, Head at Scorpio 15

Jupiter septile Head: willing to devote all of his energies to accomplish his destiny

Scorpio 15 seems to support the idea that Fermi was unlocking the secrets of Nature out of the five senses

Short beginning discussion of regular transits for day of fission discovery

When looking at transits, in the beginning can only get glimpses of undivided mind's functioning; this is enough to show you how awesome this functioning is

BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:

• Marc Edmund Jones, The Astrology of Concepts

• Marc Edmund Jones, The Sabian Symbols in Astrology

• Diamond Sutra

DIAGRAM and CHART appended to this transcript:

• FIGURE 1983 1009-1. Nested Levels.

• FIGURE 1983 1009-2. Enrico Fermi Natal Chart (astro.com).

The first diagram is from Astronoesis, p. 250. [Transcriber note: [diagram] means the speaker is referencing a diagram as he or she is speaking. If someone is drawing or writing, with audible sounds of chalk on a blackboard, I indicate this by [drawing] or [writing].]

TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT 2023. Archival verbatim transcript – V11a.

AUDIO FILES: 1983 1009a. [Note 1: "Tape" refers to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files. Note 2: We are missing the first audio file for this class. Note 3: Audio File 1983 1009a is faint and hard to hear in places.]

1983 10/09 at Wisdom's Goldenrod

Astrology; Meditation; Fermi

[Audio File 1983 1009a Begins]

[Note: See FIGURE 1983 1009-1, Nested Levels, appended to this transcript for the following.]

CDA: --and, there's been an experience of your nothingness, you know, the way you spoke of that first stage.

AD: Yeah, when he says experience of the ego as the-- you know, non-being, [CDA simultaneously: So--] no attempt at transformation would be needed.

CDA: So, could you say that-- that the distinction would be that the kind of glimpses you would get at the level of contemplation, there's still-- there's still a duality there, as you-- as you say, you're aware-- aware of awareness or you're aware of compassion or you're aware of some-- some virtue or etc. But the ego has to be subtlized. [AD simultaneously: It's which one?] It seems that the ego must be subtlized at this level, that it-- that it--

AD (simultaneously): Yeah, good. Then it becomes much subtler.

CDA: It's not if-- if it claims those experiences it's going to plunge back down into the psychic level.

AD (simultaneously): Yeah, any kind of self-aggrandizement would immediately, because now--

CDA (simultaneously): Brings you back down into the psychic level.

AD (simultaneously): So, any-- any [CDA simultaneously: (Yeah/Right).] person (at/in) that level contemplating any, let's say, universal, a unit of being, alright, he's-- he's attempting to eliminate the function of egoism (and leave) only with the universal ideas. So the ego becomes unimportant.

CDA: So now, that level of the u-- these are universal ideas that are being contemplated. There are universal ideas at the level of the-- the Earth-- Earth's--

AD (simultaneously): Of your mental being.

CDA: Of-- yeah, ok, I mean of the-- the Earth's mental being. Now, is this-- this is where I-- what I couldn't get clear from before. Is this the World-Idea given to the individual mind?

AD: Is this referring to what?

CDA (simultaneously): The universal qualities that one can contact at the level of contemplation--

AD: It is through these universal ideas that you get-- know what the real World-Idea is.

CDA: Well, and that's distinct from-- that's-- I know that's obviously distinct from--

AD (simultaneously): Wait, wait, you follow what I said?

CDA: These are the universal ideas. Well--

AD (simultaneously): Of the world.

CDA: Of the world.

AD (simultaneously): Of the Earth, alright.

CDA: Through which you--

AD (simultaneously): Is the faculty by which you will grasp [CDA simultaneously: The real--] the greater World-Idea.

CDA: The greater World-Idea.

AD: You're not going to grasp it through the faculties over here [AD indicates on diagram].

CDA: Right. Oh.

CDA: And, so wait--

AD (simultaneously): So when you start thinking in terms of compassion, alright, love, and all these qualities, these have to-- these faculties, so to speak, belong to the mental being, that is, with these, alright, that you can approach or understand, or let's say be able to transmit a knowledge which is beyond this world.

CDA: And so, the World-Idea that is given to the individual mind is just the two lower faculties there [diagram].

AD (simultaneously): Yeah, yeah.

CDA: And, the universal qualities-- does the universal--

AD (simultaneously): But, that statement has to be qualified by remembering the fact that some people in their natal chart will already inherit these universal ideas as part of their constituent or as part of their ego structure, part of their make-up.

CDA: And-- [RG simultaneously: That's true.] I'm not sure what point you're making.

AD: Well, you just try to recall the chart of Emerson, [CDA: Ok.] PB or something, and you see already they inherit with the psychosomatic organ [CDA simultaneously: Yeah.] certain fixed ideas which they immediately can universalize or becomes a faculty by which they can universalize themselves.

CDA: Ok, so that you're saying that-- that's not necessarily the case with everyone but [AD simultaneously: No.] a certain-- but that that-- but that--

AD (simultaneously): No, I just said you had to qualify what you said.

CDA: But those universal qualities are potentiality available to the ego.

AD: Uh-huh. You'll see a much less of ego.

CDA: Yeah, yeah.

AD (simultaneously): To the extent that more of these are operative, so much the less of ego.

CDA (simultaneously): Now does that imply that either-- that in some past life these--

AD: Yeah, they've been acquired, yeah.

CDA (simultaneously): So that the cu-- the level that-- that they've been acquired through the state of contemplation.

AD: Yeah.

CDA: Through this development of contemplation.

AD (simultaneously): They will be carried forth, of course. They'd be carried forth.

CDA: And that's what we would call the permanent-- the permanent acquisition of the individual soul, yeah.

AD (simultaneously): The tendencies that are a part of this individual soul, sure.

BB: That's what I was trying to get at too is that, you know, regardless of, you know, a person--

[possible tape break]

AD: The thing you realize in the experiences that you are not. Therefore, if you are not, you cannot have the experience! Somewhere PB points out-- I don't know, Tim (could) come across it, that those who have experience of the Overself, [student assents, faint] any extent or any depth, will recognize it when they meet someone who's got it.

TS: Yes, that is a quote. He also said that--

CDA (simultaneously): [few words inaudible]

S (faint): Yeah.

TS: He--

AD: Say it loud. This--

TS: Yeah that quote-- that there's this-- that phrase from the Diamond Sutra, he said that-- he says, "How does he know that he's a stream winner? Because there is no thought that he is a stream winner." And PB was-- PB said, "Yes that's--" I mean he pulled that out, he said oh that's one of the true observations in that sutra. Yeah he-- he said it's at least--

[short pause]

AD: Alright. Well, (we/you) don't have much time left for astrology. [short pause] Are those back here? [17¾ second pause] Alright, where do we go from here?

TS: Transits.

AD: Transits.

TS: And aspects.

AD (simultaneously): So what you're telling me-- what you're telling me, Tim, is you want to understand how the undivided mind is working.

TS: Yeah. (some laughter) Why not?

CDA: Hear, hear. (CDA laughs)

TS: Having attained global consciousness. (laughter)

BB (very faint): Right.

S: That's (a different) countywide consciousness.

TS: Countywide consciousness? (bit of laughter) Taxes are higher. (some laughter)

S (faint): (Do) astrology Tim.

AD (faint): Do astrology, yeah.

TS: Well, we had suggested-- June and Bo said that they were going to explain Fermi to us so--

RG: Well yeah. (bit of laughter)

S: Hear, hear.

S: I'm doing both-- I'm doing both (of that).

TS: I happen to have Mr. Fermi's horoscope and his transits for when he got that idea, [S: Sure.] already worked out for once.

RG: [few words inaudible]

TS: What?

AD: You put them up?

TS: Yeah, ok.

S (faint): Good job Tim.

CDA: Are you referring to only trans-Sa-- trans-Saturnians up there?

AD: No, I'm referring [CDA simultaneously: I mean, all of-- all of the--] to the ideas (on the circle). The ideas that we put around it.

CDA: No. I know but--

AD: The Intellectual Gods.

CDA: I know but, tho-- but, do you include in that the ideas-- the degrees that the Chaldeans are on? Or just the ideas that the trans-Saturnians are--

AD (faint): No, all the ideas, they're all (in here).

CDA (simultaneously): All of the ideas.

S (very faint): Yeah.

CDA: All-- all 360 ideas. Not determined by a planet?

AD (simultaneously): Well specific-- no, specifically where your planets are sitting. I mean even let's say a Venus is not a trans-Saturnian but it's sitting on an idea. And so the anima function is really trying to manifest that idea. And if you can get directly to it, you may be spared going through all the intermediary steps and go directly to the idea.

CDA: And you're saying that idea is in the mental realm, it's not in the psychic realm.

AD: No, it's not in the psychic realm.

CDA: And I'm just trying to grasp [few words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): You do, you do ha-- you do have to deal with it primarily at the conceptual level. But then in the contemplative phase you'll have to experience these as universal attributes of your mental being, so that they become the faculties by which you can understand the higher philosophy.

CDA: So I'm-- what I'm just trying to grasp is, how it is that the Chaldeans themselves have access [RG simultaneously: 'Cause just as--] to these ideas. No, I'm just going theoretical.

RG (simultaneously): Yeah but just as-- just as-- is that we've talked before where the rational soul powers are reflected in the Mind of the Ear-- the infinite Mind of the Earth, from the third level [CDA simultaneously: Yeah, you want to do it--] you could have access to them as spiritual functions and the way we tried to talk about (the Mars) as-- the higher octaves of Mars as courage, Venus as love, and Jupiter as wisdom. And also we talked about it in that form, you would have a closer access to the idea.

CDA (simultaneously): So-- so as they are in the-- in the-- in the psychosomatic organism, they're determined as categories of the imagination. As they are in the mental being, they're reflecting-- that they're-- they're potentially reflecting the higher soul powers.

AD: Yeah.

CDA: But how it is that-- that the same degree as a category of the imagination-- Now I'm going back [RG assents] to the last-- the question that I was-- what I was trying to clarify before and the distinction, you know, between the World-Idea as a psycho-- as the psychosomatic organism, you know, that-- that level of the world given to the individual mind, and the mental being.

S: Right.

AD/S(?) (faint): Yeah.

CDA: I'm just-- I'm pointing to that distinction.

AD (simultaneously): Well can't the Mars as a category of the imagination symbolically represent, alright-- If you think of Mars as an instinctual kind of function, bravery or courage or--

CDA: Yeah.

AD: Instead of thinking of it, think of it as the inferior aspect of your personality, ok?

CDA: Yeah.

AD: And, one that has a self-thrust or self-drive, it wants to do its own thing, whatever it is, alright.

CDA (simultaneously): Either way, (uh-hm).

AD (simultaneously): At the higher level that can include-- that can [CDA: Yeah.] be thought of as a symbolic representation of the courage which [CDA simultaneously: Yes, no, that-- yeah.] the soul is manifesting in that instinctual way.

CDA: Yeah. But the-- the quest--

AD (simultaneously): So then-- so then, that category of the imagination is giving expression-- is giving expression to an idea which is a universal in the Earth's Mind.

CDA: Right.

AD: But then-- but then that would mean the seven Chaldean planets which are symbolically represented by the organization of a person's instincts would be symbolically representing these ideas and they would be included in his organization.

CDA: So-- ok, then-- then, would you say that the-- the World-Idea in itself is-- is all-pervasive-- all-pervasive of the mental psychosomatic-- of all three levels of the Earth Mind, ok. You can't say the World-Idea is not present at any one of those. And so the World-Idea at the highest level that we're speaking of it at the mental level, it's the same World-Idea that-- that is given to the individual mind. But it's just that at that level, it's not that it's given to-- it's not given to the individual mind, it is in itself-- the soul is not separate from-- it's n-- the soul is not identified with the body at that level, so that it could know this meaning as-- as it is in its pure ideational form.

AD: Yeah. So, in a contemplative [CDA simultaneously: So-- ok.] state you can be aware of these as universal ideas that constitute [CDA assents, very faint] your mental being, alright. But, remember the point PB made? He says but, you don't remain that "I", you immediately identify with a body. It's almost concomitant. And consequently the identification with the body now obscures the primal meanings that you inherit.

RG: He also says that each experiences the World-Idea in its own unique way and adjusts it-- and adjusts it to the form of its own intellect. And it's in the adjusting to the form of its own intellect would be at the mental level. And then he says it supplies its own space-time characteristics. That would be the-- the psychic level. And consequently conceives its own experienced world as the sensible world.

CDA: Ok. I'm sorry [few words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): Yeah, it's-- [TS simultaneously: Can't do anything (three words inaudible)] I think-- think they would say, you know, the mental being experiences [couple words inaudible] (times), alright. [few inaudible student words simultaneous with AD] And also in the psychical level [one/two words inaudible] intuitive. It seems to go over both. Alright, even if we just get it started.

S (faint): Yeah, that's amazing.

[Note: See FIGURE 1983 1009-2, Enrico Fermi Natal Chart (astro.com), appended to this transcript for the following.]

TS (simultaneously): Ok. I think it is, you know-- just to hastily scratch out this-- this gentleman's dossier in light of the aspects that are there. I want to go over a few of the Sabian symbols in the natal chart as a jumping off place. He has a Moon Pluto septile exactly, ok. So, the Moon is a large disappointed audience. Um-- [aside] You could put that there, (thank you).

S (very faint): It's ok.

Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Aries 28, TS reading]: "A large audience is seen rejoicing in some disillusionment to which it has just been subjected."

Marc Edmund Jones [The Sabian Symbols in Astrology, Aries 28, TS reading]: "…symbol of the transiency of the rewards in a life taken…in its more superficial terms."

TS: See here.

Marc Edmund Jones [The Sabian Symbols in Astrology, Aries 28, TS reading]: "When positive [TS reads: Positively]…[TS adds: a] complete…"

TS: Well-- There's a complete independence that's in the degree and a sense of-- of freedom from any guide for the values that he should pursue. There's a kind of an inner freedom to pursue his own values. And that Moon is-- is in Aries and it's septile the Pluto in Gemini. And that degree of Pluto is in some--

Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Gemini 19, TS reading]: "In the somber archives of a sedate museum a large archaic volume is somewhat conspicuously displayed."

Marc Edmund Jones [The Sabian Symbols in Astrology, Gemini 19, TS reading]: "[This is] a symbol of the ultimate indestructibility of experience…"

TS: Now I think it's very interesting that he has one degree which is Pluto, which is this awareness of the ultimate indestructibility of experience together with the Moon which is a knowledge of the transiency of the superficial. Ok. So that to me just in terms of looking at it from the point of view of a scientist, that he came in with a kind of a recognition or capacity to assimilate a formless idea of matter which--

S (faint): Yeah.

AD: I would enlarge that to say that he came in already with the recognition that there are fundamental laws.

BB (very faint): Ok.

AD: Because there-- I think science recognizes-- From a philosophic point of view, ok, I will say the so-called fundamental laws of science are habits of Nature and therefore to me they're not for all time forever. But from the point of view of humanity, alright, which is evolving within those habits of Nature we can say those are the fundamental laws. The septile of these two seems to be that there's an inherent recognition on his part that there are certain fundamental laws that govern manifestation and this is what his-- fixed idea of his.

TS: That certainly would be quite the--

AD (simultaneously): That everything else was superficial. Why be preoccupied with a hundred thousand manifestations of this one and same law. Find out what that law is. I don't know, [RG assents] you interpret.

RG: Yeah.

TS: That makes sense from his life, I mean, when he-- before he went over to-- nine or ten and he was already trying to read these Latin texts on physics. He was preoccupied with getting to those laws from very early.

AD: Now you see, it seems that he's the kind of man like we said before who wanted to know "What is the world?" Not so much "Who am I?"

TS: Yeah.

AD: Like the emphasis of, "What is the world?" you know.

TS: Yeah, there's almost no emphasis on the other side. Which, I guess I should put in (a/the) context of the Sun degree which we all know, right? If you say that the Sun-- the Sun has no septiles or quintiles to it. The Sun Uranus and Neptune are the only three, they don't-- that don't have it. Well, the Sun degree is--

Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Libra 6, TS reading]: "A pilgrim sits on a rustic bench and one by one his ideals in a sort of trance-vision [TS reads: trancelike vision] take form before him."

Marc Edmund Jones [The Sabian Symbols in Astrology, Libra 6, TS reading]: "[This is] a symbol of experience as the practical or everyday substantiation of inner insight and conscious understanding."

TS: Now we saw that degree before that here's a gentleman whose theoretical and actual experience will be constantly balanced one off of the other. Now what he theoretically understands he will practically implement. And what the practical instructions of his laboratory testing tells him, he will be able to adjust his theoretical understanding to respond to it, you know. You know, I mean just in dropping to a low level of astrology, Sun in the sixth house is classically a research scientist, and it's the house of research, doing research, investigative thinking and so forth. So--

S (faint): [few words inaudible]

TS: Yeah?

S: Tim, could you-- did the Mars and the Venus in that-- that third level septiles be [few words inaudible]

TS: Third level septiles.

S (simultaneously): [few words inaudible]

TS: Third-- what do you mean?

RG: Tri-septile(s).

TS: Tri-septiles?

AD (simultaneously, faint): Tri-septile(s).

TS: No.

S (faint): Ok. [few words inaudible]

S (simultaneously): Where was this (correlated)?

TS: Ok, let me tell you what all they are. Moon septile the Pluto.

RG: Yeah.

TS: Venus septile Jupiter. [someone writing] Mars septile Saturn. Jupiter septile the Head. That's it. They're all septiles. He has no tri-septiles.

RG: And no quintile?

TS: Yeah, no, he's got quintiles. He's got a Mercury-- Mercury Saturn quintile. And Mercury-- Venus Pluto bi-quintile. And a Pluto Head bi-quintile. [short pause while someone writes on board] You know maybe I figured them wrong but as far as I got (in some way). Ok. So we did the Moon Saturn and we said that there's this basic preoccupation with getting to the fundamentals of matter. If we do the Venus Jupiter, it's also pretty obvious, I mean he-- he--

RG: Well do the Venus Jupiter, ok.

TS: What?

RG: Let's--

TS: The-- the Venus is--

Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Scorpio 15, TS reading]: "In unconscious occult symbolism a group of laughing, joyous children are playing on five mounds of white sand."

Marc Edmund Jones [The Sabian Symbols in Astrology, Scorpio 15, TS reading]: "[This is] a symbol of absolute self-integrity at a simple extreme of social consciousness…a gift for a continual discovery of new and effective facets of selfhood…"

TS: Here I'd say "facets of the world". [student assents, faint] And the Jupiter is 5 Cap.

Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Capricorn 5, TS reading]: "An American Indian encampment rests by the side of a canoe-filled stream and on [TS adds: the] shore the war dance commences."

Marc Edmund Jones [The Sabian Symbols in Astrology, Capricorn 5, TS reading]: "[This is] a symbol of the irresistible impulse to action inherent in the very fact of conscious being, and of the powers of accomplishment brought to their personal focus as some pattern of motives takes [form] on [the] subjective side of things."

TS: Now, you know, biasing myself on-- I would say that, you put those two degrees together in-- in the understanding that there is power in the perc-- in the perceived world, that there is energy or kind of an overwhelming amount of power in the percept would be again something that he would be-- would understand, that he would--

AD: Could you go over that Venus again, just the things you picked out?

TS: Ok.

Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Scorpio 15, TS reading]: "In unconscious occult symbolism a group of laughing, joyous children are playing on five mounds of white sand."

AD: Yeah and-- and some of the things you picked out.

TS (simultaneously): Ok.

Marc Edmund Jones [The Sabian Symbols in Astrology, Scorpio 15, TS reading]: "…absolute self-integrity…able to deal with whatever may arise in [the] circumstances of his being…the degree is a gift for [TS reads: a degree of] [a] continual discovery of new and effective facets of selfhood…"

AD: So then, we would say that it was like the ability that he can personally mobilize his energies to confront and understand whatever experience he was (perceiving/receiving). You know, this is basically the quintile.

TS: Septile.

AD: Septile.

RG/S(?): Uh-hm.

TS: Well now, if you don't mind, would it be alright to add the other thing, that you say that the-- this-- a septile's a fixed idea or a given understanding. And you say-- and, maybe I'm being too fanciful in saying that these five mounds of sand as a-- as a-- an image of the five senses, that there's an awareness or a-- an understanding of the forces or the-- the formative energies and inherent in forming sense-perception and this idea of this-- these children playing on these five mounds of sand.

S: That's what Jones says in the (old/other) version.

TS: (Eh?)

S: That's what Jones says in the old version.

S (faint): Right, yeah.

S (simultaneously): [few words inaudible] says--

Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Scorpio 15, S reading]: "[This is a] symbol of the basic patterning of all life or of the touch of reality which the senses of man in fivefold expression give to all experience."

TS: In other words--

AD: Could we tersely put it? Things can be understood.

TS: Yeah. And that's-- he had a faith that-- that if you looked at the object deep enough, there was knowledge there to be gained.

AD (faint): It can be understood.

TS: And that's-- [short pause] Ok.

LR: I think the emphasis is on forms.

S (very faint): Uh-hm.

TS: Well, and, it would seem that that would have to be a part of the-- his orientation, you know, as this, well, you know--

S (simultaneously, faint): Yeah, yeah, it was.

TS: And among all these guys who worked on this, if you read them, so many of them lived so far away from things. I mean, they would call themselves physicists but they're not [student assents] really respectful of the matter with which they were dealing, but rather, you know, trying to constantly adjust it to their own theories. But he really was a giant in his ability to really respect the, you know-- how the objects were revealing their structure, you know. And if it didn't work he didn't reformulate the experiment, he reformulated his theories, you know. And [S simultaneously: Tim--] having worked in science-- (TS laughs a bit)

S (faint): That's like what I find most interesting is his-- (I don't know) if it's courage or-- that he gives more weight of reality to the intuition the way it gets directly from the-- from his work with the object, you know, that he can function with [one word inaudible] [TS simultaneously: Yes.] He always could go with what he was getting directly from the object, what the World-Mind was expressing in the object, and rather than just his conceptual fanciful--

TS: Theoretical [S simultaneously: Theoretical.] stuff, yeah. So I-- yeah I think that's one of the things that was needed for his-- you know, for him to capture what was coming in. So I have the Saturn Mars is the next one. Mars is 20. Yeah this one's-- this one I think goes right along with it.

Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Scorpio 20, S reading]: "An immensely tall entranceway is closed by heavy and dark velvet portieres; a woman in white draws these aside."

Marc Edmund Jones [The Sabian Symbols in Astrology, Scorpio 20, TS reading, out of order]: "[The] keyword is DARING. When positive [TS reads: Positively]…psychological indomitability with which the human spirit plunges ahead in every new adventure… [This is] a symbol of the enduring values which the [average] individual visualizes behind the outer façade…"

AD: In other words, he knows there's noumena behind the phenomena.

S (very faint): Yeah.

S: What planet?

TS (simultaneously): Ok. Mars. And he had the courage to push through to get there, 'cause it was Mars, it was-- Now, Mars and Saturn, Saturn is in Cap.

Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Capricorn 10, S reading]: "On the deck of an old-fashioned sailing ship seamen are taming an albatross that feeds from their hands."

TS: Do you think he knew what he was doing?

AD (faint): Think so, Tim.

S (very faint): Yeah.

TS: And that he was willing to-- and that with that he would know [S, faint: But--] the con-- the responsibility?

S (very faint): Maybe [couple words inaudible]

S: With what part?

LR: Start it again?

S (very faint): Yeah.

LR (faint): This is what it is. [TS: Um--] If it comes to you.

TS: That if you push aside and open up the secrets of matter you got a real albatross on your hands. In other words-- (TS laughs)

JA: And what-- now what would the albatross be, I'm just [one word inaudible]

TS: Saturn, Capricorn.

JA (faint): That's the Saturn.

TS (simultaneously): 10 Capricorn, yes.

S (very faint): (Uh-hm.)

S (very faint): (Yes.)

S: Ok.

CDA: You're saying that the-- he-- would you say that he took responsibility, or that that was good, that responsibility was (forcing him)?

TS: Well if you say this is a fixed idea, insofar that it's connected to the Mars, that the two together that-- that a recognition of the responsibility-- that as he pushed into these underlying secrets of matter, the recognition of exactly what the consequences of that would be would [CDA simultaneously, faint: He--] arise with it.

CDA: He was the one placing bets like I'm not sure how much of the atmosphere would be destroyed. I mean here he was collecting the money for the bets the day before they-- they dropped the bomb, so it's a little hard to see the responsibility, how he-- how you're seeing that responsibility. I mean, [TS simultaneously: Well I could (three words inaudible)] now I'm going to get into an argument but-- (CDA laughs) I don't know what you think [one word inaudible]

JA (simultaneously): No (it is) a good point because-- You know, we-- we can look at these degrees and we can really idealize the person (but you) also have to look at the person and their, you know-- are we reading too much into that person (too). Because he happens to-- you know, I mean he happens to have this potential, this capacity. You know, now, it might not be important to really determine whether the potential is actually happening in the person or whether he knew it or-- And it might be that the activity is not a true reflection but what, you know-- I mean, I think it's good to question that.

TS: Well I can't document everything I say with books that I don't have at the moment.

CDA: Yeah.

JA: No, and I'm just saying--

TS: But, you know--

JA: Carol's--

CDA: I was just trying to bring in more what you meant, I mean if you meant it on an actual (level).

TS: Yes, I meant it on an actual (level).

CDA (simultaneously): Oh. That you think he actually took responsibility?

TS (simultaneously): You talk-- you read the wri-- you hear the interviews with the other people and then they're shocked as to what happened after the bomb dropped. It was amazing. And I don't think he ever-- caught him off guard.

AD (very faint): Yeah, ok, that's good.

CDA: Well, yeah, but to know what he was doing and to say that he-- he had taken a responsibility for that--

AD (simultaneously): To say that his conscience-- to say that he was a man without a conscience-- I mean this level of intelligence you got to be kidding.

[short pause]

CDA: I'm-- I'm only asking, I'm not-- I'm not presupposing anything, I'm simply trying--

AD (simultaneously): Well, you pick-- you (take/pick) an example from his life, it certainly wasn't going to support the notion that he had a conscience?

S: Ok.

CDA (simultaneously): No, that's not what I was implying.

JA (simultaneously): Well-- now what's an example from his life that would support that he had a--

AD (simultaneously): I didn't read his life. Maybe those who did could point it out.

JA: Maybe.

AD: But he certainly was not an irresponsible man.

S (faint): He might [one word inaudible]

RG: Well he was the only one who came to (the) [few words inaudible]

JA/S(?): Well I--

AD (simultaneously): Why I say he wasn't irrespon-- What did he do in his life that shows he was irresponsible?

JA: No I'm saying why did you say it. You had a certain specific and more to say about that. I want to see (if--)

TS: Maybe he sees the septile.

AD (faint): You tell me that a man of his intelligence knows that knowledge and power (you) have responsibility.

JA: You could say that [few words inaudible] but, I think there are a lot of highly super-intelligent people we know and who may-- might even function spiritually and still, I mean they--

AD (faint): I don't know who you're referring to as intelligent. [short pause] I'm not saying cunning. I'm saying intelligent [one/two words inaudible]

JA: I want, you know-- I want to see what the difference is.

AD (simultaneously): I'm telling you, I haven't read his life. I would like [one word inaudible] (and) read it.

S: But that's just-- it was his ironic commentary on the polyamorous [couple words inaudible] the scientist. He did seem to think that nothing was going to happen with it. It (was) just (gone).

AD: Yeah.

TS: I don't think it came as any surprise to him as to what happened, I mean, you know.

AD (faint): No, he knew what was going to happen.

TS (simultaneously): And he knew right away that-- There's a-- why did he come from Italy, you know. He left the-- that--

AD: He wasn't a naïve undergraduate just getting into this field. He was already a director of physics at the Rome Institute when he came here.

JA: That doesn't impress me though. Well honey I don't care [TS simultaneously: Well I can't talk to him.] what you're directors of or, you know, what the--

TS (simultaneously): How many books do we need to read for you?

JA: What?

TS: I mean, you say that the man leaves a fascist government to come to America having recognized what's going on with nuclear physics--

S: Uh-hm.

JA: Alright, I mean, that's better.

S (faint): Yeah.

BB: Is what you're saying [S simultaneously: Yeah what--] that-- that the--

JA (simultaneously): But I mean, just to say that he was a director of an institute or to say that, you know, he was kind of an intelligent, doesn't--

S (simultaneously): It just-- there's no [TS simultaneously: (Does--)] way to settle this discussion right now. [TS simultaneously: If--] Let's get on to something else because all we can do is talk about our impressions of other (people's--)

AD: Yeah, only those who have read his life would be able to really talk about it.

S (simultaneously): You can read [couple words inaudible]

[short pause]

JA: And only those who haven't can ask questions, you know. 'Cause I don't know.

EC: I mean I just thought that the responsibility was-- and that we had to do it in spite of what was going to happen, that this was a responsibility that (we/he) forgot [couple words inaudible] we don't know. This idea was going to have to come in. [student assents, faint] But where you stand-- awesome idea and we have acknowledged it, that's for sure, not at this point. I mean I (tend to think of) not to do that.

[short pause]

TS: Well--

AD (faint): We already did [couple words inaudible] on the dossier, you know, for that [few words inaudible] That was a work I had [few words inaudible]

S (very faint): There's nothing wrong (Tim).

S: Excuse me?

AD: Or septile Saturn, uh-huh.

TS: The Jupiter was septile his Head so one of you people do the next one so we don't misinterpret it.

CDA: Tim, I wasn't coming from that point of view, I was only [TS simultaneously: Fine, so you--] trying to pull out what [TS simultaneously: Good.] you were speaking of.

TS: So you do the next one.

S (simultaneously, very faint): Uh-hm.

CDA (faint): No I'm not-- no but-- no I won't.

TS (simultaneously): Ok. The next one is Jupiter which is--

Marc Edmund Jones [The Astrology of Concepts, Capricorn 5, TS reading]: "An American Indian encampment rests by the side of a canoe-filled stream and on shore the war dance commences."

TS: Ok? Now that one we-- you-- why don't you put that together with his Head and see how you see it.

CDA (simultaneously, faint): [couple words inaudible] (games) to be played. Sorry.

TS: Well I don't want to impute my own misunderstanding too.

CDA (simultaneously): Oh no.

RG (faint): Come on, let's (do it).

TS: The Head is the same one as his Venus which is the-- the five mounds of sand. So I mean he had a Jupiter Venus septile, he also had Jupiter Head septile. And how would you differentiate that?

RG/S(?) (faint): I don't know.

TS: It's the same Sabian symbol but now it's being used by the Head.

RG: He knew it was his destiny.

TS: Well how do you interpret the Head? [15¾ second pause] Well [RG assents] the same Sabian symbol and now you have to see it from a different point of view 'cause it's a different planet.

RG (simultaneously): Right. What his-- what his spiritual destiny was going to be in this life [student assents] would seem to be intimately tied to that septile. So that-- I mean that would support the idea that he had a sense of-- that he was being led by some-- his higher being to unfold those ideas.

TS: And if you say Jupiter is the energy of the person, and the Jupiter degree is an irresistible impulse to action, [RG assents] ok, and you say the Head is the destiny of a person, [RG assents] that he would be willing to devote all of his energies to accomplish his destiny?

RG: And that invaluable, I mean his-- he was totally attached to (doing that too), I mean Venus was conjunct it. His feelings were totally oriented towards living out his destiny in this life and he's always one-pointed (at it). So that can--

S (faint): Yeah.

[11¾ second pause]

RG: You know, and that symbol seems to almost support the idea that he was unlocking the secrets of Nature through the five-- out of the five senses.

S: That was Jupiter?

AD (faint): You got the Venus part, the basic fixed ideas that [couple words inaudible]

RG/S(?) (faint): That's right.

S (simultaneously): Yeah.

AD (faint): And (this was/these were) predetermining the-- predetermining, (you know), in order-- in order to [one word inaudible] his own reality.

TS: Ok I thought that in looking at the transits, there's several transits to these planets which are in septile, which are first of all the regular aspects and then the quintiles, and-- I thought it was interesting to see which-- You say these are the fixed ideas. And you say that the regular transits are the circumstantial-- circumstances of the individual. Could we say that the transiting planets in regular aspect to the planets which have a septile are going to be a circumstantial unfolding of those basic ideas.

RG: Uh-hm. Yeah.

TS: Ok, so we could start with the-- So like for example, there's the Moon on the Moon. That means the Moon's gotta be septile Pluto also, the [RG assents] short way to do so. He has Mercury quincunx Pluto. Let's see, what was on--

S: Venus on Mercury.

TS: No, I wanted to go (bottom), Pluto square the Moon, that's-- [student assents, faint] I mean the big one. Transiting Pluto is square his Moon. Now he's got a natal Moon Pluto septile.

RG: Right.

TS: Ok. So there's an idea in the way in which the Moon and Pluto relate to natally. [RG assents] And now by square you're saying that there's some kind of manifestation or embodiment of that idea.

RG: Right.

TS: Does that make sense?

RG: Yeah, sure. Especially through a square if you say it's the transiting Pluto with that one, the will of the World-Idea is coming in through the transiting Pluto, (manifests with his) natal Moon Pluto septile.

TS: So that would be the-- I mean that's the slowest, so that's [RG simultaneously: Right. That's going to be there (a long time).] in some way going to be the context of all the other aspects.

RG: Uh-hm.

AD (faint): Tim, I think you got to the point.

S (faint): That's (great).

AD: We continue tomorrow after-- afternoon?

S (faint): (Right/Yeah).

S (faint): Yeah.

BB (very faint): (From what I heard.)

S: Yeah.

TS/S(?): It is?

AD (faint): That's terrific. [few seconds of background student talking] I-- yeah?

S (faint): And-- and I was just saying it seems that, well, I mean, the Moon Uranus conjunction gives us that kind of [one word inaudible] because it seems like that-- that orderly (conscious) of the conceptual consciousness constantly being disappointed.

S (very faint): Uh-hm.

S (very faint): That's just the Moon.

S (faint): So this example [few words inaudible] Pluto [few words inaudible] It was instructed and he capitalized [couple words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): Yeah, good, good, yeah.

S: Good aspect.

AD: Yeah.

S (very faint): Yeah.

AD: All we can do in the beginning is get glimpses of these things, but even a glimpse as to the functioning of this undivided mind will, you know, just show you how awesome, you know, the functioning of that mind is. And you think that it correlates every other person who was involved in Los Alamos, and then correlates all the individuals in all the worlds, [student assents] I mean in this world, you can see that even a glimpse would be more than satisfying, (not) knowing all [couple words inaudible, possibly student] Alright, then we'll continue tomorrow.

[short pause followed by few seconds of faint background student talking]

[Audio File 1983 1009a Ends]