Wednesday, August 22nd, 1984

CLASS at Wisdom's Goldenrod, Hector, NY

with Anthony Damiani (AD)

August 22, 1984

ARTHUR BROEKHUYSEN TALK; PB PARAS (PHILOSOPHY)

TOPIC: PB Paras

SUBJECT: Philosophy

SUBSUBJECTS: Arthur Broekhuysen Talk on Science, Mysticism, Yin and Yang, PB; Overself, Mind, Nirvikalpa vs. Sahaja

CONTENTS:

INTRODUCING ARTHUR

DEVELOPMENT OF OUR MODERN WORLD

YIN AND YANG; MENTALISM

SOME STUDENT QUESTIONS

BALANCE, RELAXATION, MEDITATION, DEVOTION

SEEING PB IN THE NETHERLANDS

THE PHOTOGRAPH

MYSTICISM, METAPHYSICS, PHILOSOPHY

FOUR SCHOOL OF BUDDHISM IN "BIRTH OF THE UNIVERSE"; SYNTHESIZING VEDANTA AND BUDDHISM TO GET THE COMPLETE DOCTRINE

FIRST "WHO AM I", THEN "WHAT AM I"

TEMPORARY GLIMPSES VS. PERMANENT UNDERSTANDING

BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:

• Paul Brunton, Notebooks. 16 vols; Vol. 1 entitled Perspectives, published 1984-1988. Arthur Broekhuysen's photograph of PB is the frontispiece photo for the volumes in this series.

• Paul Brunton, The Hidden Teaching Beyond Yoga

• Paul Brunton, The Wisdom of the Overself

DIAGRAMS referred to (not with this transcript version) [Transcriber note: [diagram] means the speaker is referencing a diagram as he or she is speaking. If someone is drawing or writing, with audible sounds of chalk on a blackboard, I indicate this by [drawing] or [writing].]

NOTES:

• "Photo" = frontispiece photo to PB Notebooks series taken by Arthur Broekhuysen. In August 1984 Perspectives, the first volume of the Notebooks, was published, and apparently Arthur Br. was visiting WG for the Book Launch Party.

• ABr = Arthur Broekhuysen.

• The first part of this class (PB Talk) was poorly transcribed by Transcription Puppy, possibly due to mediocre sound quality, so a decision was made by MW and IT, in the course of prepping transcripts for the web, to re-transcribe the whole class verbatim and keep it unsplit into parts A and B.

• PB Paras portion of this class was originally transcribed from Audio Cassette Tapes (and also using the original Pat Campbell 1983 transcript as a basis) by HP, et al. in 1993 as part of the set for Living Wisdom. V11 version done in 2018. V14r version reformatted from V11 by JRM & JF 2019-2020, with Subheads and Table of Contents added by JRM. In 2023 IT fixes some of the Subheads to make them more accurate.

• This class is related thematically to WG Classes 1984 0620, 0802, 0808, and 0919.

TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT 2023 on the basis of V14r (parts A and B). Archival verbatim transcript – V14.1a.

AUDIO FILES: 1984 0822a, 1984 0822b. [Note 1: "Tape" and "Side" refer to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files. Note 2: In 2025, REP Studio improves sound quality of both audio files, cuts dead air.]

1984 08/22 at Wisdom's Goldenrod

Arthur Broekhuysen Talk; PB Paras (Philosophy)

Archival Verbatim Transcript

INTRODUCING ARTHUR

[Audio File 1984 0822a Begins]

RC: --with the photograph that we used on the Perspectives book. And did we know who the photographer was? No we didn't and so we discussed in terms of, when we found out-- if we found out who the photographer was, what were we going to do about it. And we decided amongst ourselves what we would do when we found that photographer. And then Kenneth looked at me and he said, "Let me introduce your photographer." (laughter, clapping)

AB: And it's Paul.

RC: So if any of you become Sages, Arthur will take your photograph. (laughter)

S: There's no rush though. (laughter)

DEVELOPMENT OF OUR MODERN WORLD

ABr: Though as you know I'm talking in a foreign language so I'll [one/two words inaudible] Please keep that in mind if I make mistakes.

S (faint): Uh-hm.

ABr: Pardon? The purpose of this talk is to strike note (of) [couple words inaudible] I may first drop the story over to you of what has happened to us in our civilization. Before 1500, we were more or less living in-- in harmony with Nature and just this other-- largely an agricultural society and we felt responsible for the environment. Nobody thought of the environment as something to exploit. But, we shall-- we belong to it and have to take care of it.

But then-- but then things began to change. You all know about Galileo [one word inaudible] and Kepler, and then that man Descartes started his saying that "I think, therefore I am." So he put thinking in the first place, that was a new-- a new thought. And then Francis Bacon in England began to systematize this and said that from observation-- and [one word inaudible] observation people draw general conclusions. And that went on and on. And then Newton came and Newton made a system of it. He said universe is a machine, working out there in space, in fixed space, and obeying certain laws that you discover and describe.

So now, from-- from a harmonious and ecological conscious society we have developed into a society that considers Nature as something out there that we can exploit and use, and most of things and [one word inaudible] of things that we use. So-- and as-- and so physics has become what you call a hard science. And unfortunately, I mean what we now call the social sciences have exactly that message, because we accept it. We ha-- only this hard science was accepted as real science. So all the other sciences had to follow in this train.

So you got-- definitely you got things like Behaviorism in psychology and in biology and in sociology, all had to follow in this track, and-- and yo-- although (it fails) completely inevitably to explain social phenomena, they still try to do it. It doesn't re-- it didn't lead to a satisfactory result. Fortunately, it didn't last too long, but towards the end of the 19th century, Faraday and Maxwell came with magnetic fields and electric fields that didn't fit into this machine universe that Newton had described. First crack appears in this machine-like universe. And then we all know what Einstein did with-- to space, 'cause Newton had said it was fixed-- fixed thing outside us. Suddenly it turned relative, and time also. And gradually, atomic research began and then still more, it was a still further weakening of Newton's picture of the universe. The atomic research revealed that if-- Newton had thought that were building blocks, but now suddenly these new views science had.

YIN AND YANG; MENTALISM

ABr, cont: They discovered that the smallest particles were not building blocks at all. Sometimes they appeared as particles and sometimes as waves, and nobody knew why. So that became an uncertain-- the whole concept of matter became very uncertain. That's why Heisenberg formulated the uncertainty principle. And they-- they were-- and they didn't know what to do about it until Niels Bohr came and say-- and said these two are really complementary. So light and all matter does appear sometimes as waves, sometimes as particle(s), but they are complementary, like Yin and Yang.

Niels Bohr was fascinated by the-- by the Chinese concept of Yin and Yang. So he said the two aspects belong really together. And now it's appeared that it was no longer possible to speak about matter as a fixed thing. It was-- it all dissolved in-- in, well, waves or particles that had the tendency to exist, that nobody could say "how" and "where". So it all depends on who looks at them and how it looks at them.

In other words, the observer influenced the observed. There was no separation as in-- as in Newton's time between observer here and the observed outside there. They somehow belong together and influence each other. Now, this all happens in the first half this century. And, unfortunately, the old-fashioned ideas of the 19th century are still [one word inaudible] known because they are really no longer valid at all. So only that most difficult thing is that many scientists find it very difficult to accept the findings of their own science. So they-- they (try reform) thinking in the most nihilistic way which-- which has really no basis anymore.

And I say-- And as the other sciences are used to follow physics, I think, therefore, that gives us room for optimism. They can now drop the idea that they have to look for these materialistic laws and they have now much more freedom to make their own original research. And-- yeah. Well, they think they have no longer to do physics to be respectable. They can now do their research on their own-- on their own. This I think is very helpful. So you see now, you see it happening in psychology [one word inaudible] that they encourage, and (it) freely discusses spiritual experiences and looks for-- and reads Oriental-- Oriental (philosophies/philosophers) and try to-- to find harmony between Western and Eastern thinking.

So there has come certainly much more room for spirituality. And even in sociology it's also starting. But this starts really-- is in the work-- transcendental psychology has appeared. And I think also it's very helpful because, as I said, you can now move on. There are no more restrictions of materialistic (solutions). And as far-- So, they call that now the system view of life, and the word 'wholeness' has appeared in psychology and in sociology.

So, this-- as for wholeness, has two aspects, and there we meet Yin and Yang again. For instance, cells come together and make organs in our body, and organs come together and make the body. The human being is part of society. Society is part of a nation, and nations together form humanity. And, so there are two sides (in/and) all wholes. A cell is a whole in itself, at the same time it has to integrate into an organ. An organ (is a/given) whole-- whole [few words inaudible] is a whole in itself but also has to be-- be a part of a whole body. So it has to integrate into-- So, you see, these two aspects: on the one side what we would call for a human being self-assertiveness. At the same time he has to fit into a family and into society, so integration. And there we have Yang and Yin again. The self-assertiveness corresponds with Yang and the integration is Yin, and both are necessary. An organ has to be healthy so that the whole body can be healthy, and you can-- So you can go further now. The human being has to be healthy and think (privately) that the whole society can be healthy. And society has to be in balance so that there are no longer wars that can [one/two words inaudible] commun-- for a community and the whole planet. And that is-- Now-- Well it is really (developing), you can see it in your latest provocation. They just go on (and destroy). And--

Well I think that's-- I didn't want to make it too long. It was that what I wanted to say, that there is enough room for-- And that the-- in all sciences there's the opening now and they're all thinking of working towards wholeness in parts of [couple words inaudible] for the whole community. Well I have to leave it at that [one word inaudible] [short pause] Alright. [9¼ second pause] Well unless you want to specify the direction of the quest. But then you-- you land with the ego business. [S, faint: Ah, good question.]

The ego was-- is the one who ha-- who is possessed of self-certainty, but has-- but has also to integrate into the whole (for) the other two sides of the quest to develop. On the one side you have to develop personality. Of course you have to grow up and become an adult. At the same time you have-- you have to harmonize with environment and with your family and your community, and most important of all, the-- the nameless higher power. So there are the two aspects. These are the aspects (of the quest). And that is the trouble with our situation now, that you know all about the development of ego. Psychology mostly, or wholly, is really always occupying itself with ego. But, well the second aspect, integration in society is also considered important. Healthy psychotherapy mainly occupies itself with self, is integration, but it is (intention now) society. But there's more than-- in life than society, environment, and family. So the human being also must integrate with the whole, and (be throughout) the whole of the universe. Has to be what they call in tune with Infinity, which is Yin. Yin aspect. So, how to do it? Yang-- Yang affects mainly the-- the thinking, can be done, but Yin, alright, is a completely different approach. You can't stay there and then think it out. When the time comes, you've got to do. Because, we approach it differently.

That makes it difficult for-- yes for Westerners to understand, especially for people who are used to hard science, to intellectual reflection, because there's nothing to reflect there. Ok, you have to open yourself or-- so that completely new as-- completely new approach. And that is why meditation is (new) for you, is rather difficult for especially intellectual people to understand. [short pause] But (let's move on). And-- and how to explain it. [9¼ second pause] You can say there's this-- for instance [couple words inaudible] meditation, you also sit down and open yourself to it and try to ex-- to experience what's going on in [one/two words inaudible] I think that would be a way to explain what you have to do.

But there are-- but there are some conditions that have to be fulfilled. There has to be a devotion to the higher power. You have to be aware that in intellectual pursuit you try to go out into a Yang nature, you try to master the subject. So, you-- you go to grasp it and to make it your own. Well, your thoughts are here, there's nothing to-- to (draw), or somehow you have [couple words inaudible] you have to let yourself be master at something else. And, best thing you can do is to read the books or publications of people who have done it and how they describe this process or it's possible to talk to someone or to be with someone who has-- who has succeeded in-- in (his) process.

Anyway, the solution has-- everyone has to find a solution to under-- find a solution how to understand these different-- different approach from the Yang habits that we have. And it's clear that it's-- that our culture and our society needs it because when you look at what's happening in the world, it's mostly a consequence of the one-sided Yang, of this aggression, the self-assured (resolution). And especially the big-- the big nation, they-- they want to be as strong as possible. And there is-- there is problem. It is one-sided. If we become one humanity, we have to integrate. Like for instance you-- you trying to do now is not [one/two words inaudible] And for-- for that purpose, you must be ready to give up some of your rights and your-- your Yang standpoint, and you must be willing to, well, live in harmony with your neighbor. You have this-- So if enough individuals would be willing to do this in their personal life, eventually it would also appear in national life of course. Because governments are mainly mirrors of their people, that they just reflect what people think.

So it's important that as many as possible try in their personal life to awaken to this need of integration and of being receptive to the higher power. Not that they have to completely forget their-- their ego or their personal life, but be both in harmony, like Yang and Yin. Both are necessary. And as soon as enough people are aware of it and are able to carry about and to-- to lead their life according to these invisible laws, then also internationally there will be more harmony and nobody will then think about "Oh I'm [one word inaudible]" which is ridiculous. But-- And that is again, of course, the purpose of this Center also, to teach people-- teach invisible background of life, that there's more than what we see with our eyes. But also-- (also) this (very quick) movement [one/two words inaudible] and-- in universe, that we become aware of them and that we try to practice. [17 second pause] Well, that was (all) [few words inaudible]

Usually, I mean I heard them say that they, out there, the government, are responsible for what's going on in the world. In reality, but, we're also responsible because, as I say, governments can-- cannot do a thing what their people don't want them to do. So, think about [few words inaudible] of the state of entire (planetary) world. That was good thing that you are all here studying so much in insight, our life. Ok. I think that, it's what I wanted to say. Because I know any one of you will [couple words inaudible] [10¾ second pause] Well, (now) someone else can take the chair. (laughter)

[28¾ second pause]

S: You make it sound so simple, Arthur. (bit of laughter)

ABr: Yeah, you have to [couple words inaudible] (laughter)

S: We all get it.

ABr: Otherwise, what can I do and-- (laughter) That-- then I would have to stay here for, well, as long as you are here. (laughter) So I-- I-- well, you are right, it is simplification. But this was only meant to-- to draw the general lines of what's gone on the last few ages. And I-- I personally-- I personally I'm very glad that all of you good friends. And then I am fascinated by all the new thought that's come out. I think it's (wonderful). But, at a fast rate I think is [one/two words inaudible] There is much hope. But (Dotty), do you want to make it difficult, more difficult?

S: [few words inaudible]

ABr: Huh?

S: No.

RG (faint): Since last year she took it.

ABr: Pardon?

RG: Since last year she took [couple words inaudible] [ABr simultaneously: Oh.] we often make it very complicated I think.

ABr: Oh. Well if you want to-- to bring up some complications, we-- (bit of laughter) we try and simplify it.

RC: But Jon? You have your hand up? Go ahead.

JB: Would you like a question? Would you take a question?

SOME STUDENT QUESTIONS

ABr: Oh, oh, I see, fine [one/two words inaudible] sure.

JB: Returning to your earlier history, do you-- or would you say that a transcendent understanding can come on the model of the evolution in physics. I'll make-- It's a-- it's a controversy in thinking [ABr: Yes, I know.] whether the parallel you made is a-- [ABr assents] is a fair one.

ABr: Yes, there a number of physicists say it has nothing to do with (results), that's what you mean. Well the development of physics has nothing to do with [couple words inaudible] that's what you mean?

JB: That's one side, and the other side is whether in the opening of the social sciences following the model of physics, whether you will ever get out of the-- the ego realm let's say, whether you could ever get out of the realm of manifestation, whether your hope about the opening up between uncertainty and Niels Bohr's work of complimentarity, whether that parallel can get out of the ego world. Can you get a transcendent understanding on the [ABr assents] model of the--

ABr: Yes, the physicists themselves say no. They say this-- the-- But I don't know if they are right, you see [couple words inaudible] Physicists themselves say it is completely different matter. So they themselves are disappointed with their own science really. Those physicists who have turned mystic themselves, men like Schrödinger, and-- and partly Heisenberg also, they say, never get at-- at the true science. Mysticism is completely different approach. So, they are-- they themselves don't think so, no. But I'm not sure if they are right. Because after all, they have discovered that there is no matter.

JB: (It's a--)

ABr: That it's all mind. Even Jeans has said that the universe is just a thought. James Jeans. And probably already how many years ago? I think already forty years ago that it's happening. [student assents, very faint] So, this is why we are, how to say-- [short pause] And in psychology are now freely teaching their patients to accept what we would call glimpses, transcendental experiences, and not to-- In the past, they always have said that was a sign of sickness or illness, you see, but now, at least, as you say, a certain number of them that say-- that accept that it is part of a human being. A human being has a transcendental as-- transcendental-- well, 'part' is not the right word for it. That it's, I want to say, embedded in transcendent. And you know, perhaps, that a man-- man like [couple/three words inaudible] turned psychiatrist. His whole life has been-- he has accepted that many people get the-- get glimpses and transcendental experiences but they just don't know what to do with it and what it means. So he just spend most of his life in trying to explain to people what it means and, that they-- they could (see) [one/two words inaudible] as he calls it.

And now from my personal-- my personal circle of friendship, I also have met people who, when you ask them and describe (this thing), that yes, they (want--) have that [one/two words inaudible] But they just start-- they go over it and that's it. They don't know what it means. So there's a great need for explanation. [few words inaudible] But it seems that glimpses are not so rare at all when you ask it, then you'll see [couple/few words inaudible] But, they-- they then think well, it was just a nice feeling or an elevated mood and-- and-- but that-- but they don't know how to classify it or what to do with it. There's a good thing and-- Then there's no more publicity about it, there's (no--)

So anyway, main thing is that in psychology it's no longer pushed under the table and thought unhealthy. On the contrary, people like Maslow and his followers say it is a sign of health, and that [couple words inaudible] this-- And-- and you yourself have seen researches that those who have mystical experiences are the most healthy people. [short pause] Most balanced people also, the most happy people.

JL: Arthur, I had a quick question [ABr: Yes.] [couple words inaudible] question. You've spent a lot of time with PB. If you can--

ABr: (I love) PB.

JL: Hm?

S: (I love) PB.

ABr: (I love) PB.

JL: Some interesting stories and--

ABr: (You know--) Well, some among you were-- spend more time with him now.

S (very faint): No.

JL: (And) about PB?

ABr: Well the main thing that, when I read his books before I met him, I-- I can remember and that's-- it was forty years ago. I had not the slightest idea what it would look like to practice, you see. I had read-- I started with the last books, with the Hidden Teaching and the Wisdom. And I could make absolutely no picture in mind of what this teaching would look like to practice. So I was very happy to be able to see him and to-- and to observe and to experience that it was quite normal in practice. (laughter) It was a quite normal life. I hadn't expected that. So that was-- but that, especially in the beginning, (therefore) I was so thankful that I was (enabled) to-- to live like him, you know. I'm still happy of course about-- because it seems to be very difficult for people who have not met a Sage to make a picture and to have any idea of these elevated philosophical ideas, how you live that in practice. At least I would not have known possibility. And-- and when you see it yourself, and see in yourself that you can lead a completely normal life and just do all normal things and-- It's just a very encouraging and also-- Yes, I was very glad and very happy. As I'm glad that I know that much. You have not to become and spend without the [few words inaudible] the normal life. And-- and [one/two words inaudible] results. Or as we said before (I could see Yang) [couple words inaudible] but to be kept in balance. It's not something to go-- to go to extremes. You have to get (certain things done) with your-- we-- what we would call your personal life.

RC: Can you remember any of the specific observations that helped you form that impression and would help people get some of same picture as you did?

ABr: You want-- you mean specific?

RC: You said that before you met PB you really could form no picture.

ABr: No.

RC (simultaneously): And then through observations you started to form a picture.

ABr: Yeah though I meant-- what I mean by that is that, when I met him he was in a hotel room. So we had to do all kinds of practical things, wash shirts and do-- move hotels and arrange traveling, packing and unpacking, and especially (you) traveling you have to do many practical things. And see people who write letters. So it was all, like what do you call, a normal life. Normal life as a busy man. But that I don't (need).

RC: And then something-- something more than that I think. I mean you could watch a lot of people pack and be busy, [ABr assents] and you wouldn't be seeing these principles in practice. I mean, you wouldn't see the same thing by watching any businessman do something qualitatively very different.

ABr: Oh, you mean the-- yeah. You mean the inner peace?

S (faint): Yeah.

S (faint): Right.

RC: That's what I was hoping you would-- (laughter)

S: That's-- (more laughter)

ABr: I'll do (when you're done). Yes, of course. But behind all these activities is that inner peace, yeah. And impersonal taking of adversity. Yes? Yes, that's right. (laughter) Is that-- Yang and Yin (in that sense). Yes. Yes. Of course. And that makes you feel at ease, yeah. And then of course, the sensitivity that an ordinary business-- a business man has no sensitivity to other people, to environment or--

[9¼ second pause]

RC: Andy?

AH: Would you-- (and say) another question? Another [ABr assents] question please? In your description of the grasping or the notion of mastery on the part of the intellect, you-- I think your phrase was-- that was (an/in) equation with youth or with the notion of the intellect being-- (it grasps) the attitude as a-- as a young person.

ABr: Yang.

S: Yang.

Many students at once: Yang.

ABr: Yang.

S: (Yang/Yeah).

AH: But the grasping is Yang.

ABr: Yes.

AH: Yeah, yeah.

BALANCE, RELAXATION, MEDITATION, DEVOTION

ABr: Yes, I remember from my old study time how-- how much willpower you have to bring in and how much concentration to master a subject for your examination to do that(,) that is purely Yang. You know that, right. You have to master examination, really assess that you have mastered the subject. Ok. When you study for instance psychology, you are asked all kinds of questions and you have to prove that you have mastered the subject.

AH: Your suggestion was that-- that attitude is not entirely appropriate.

ABr: Yes (cognitive) is supposed to be in balance with Yin. So for instance, I was not in balance when I was studying, so I put too much energy in that side so I got sick from too much energy being pushed into one intellectual direction. And just before my examination I could see some imbalances. I felt [one word inaudible] and it was not good, and I had to take a holiday, regain strength. But that's what I mean, the course for life is that you kept in balance (as you just saving) more time [couple words inaudible]

That's what we call a leap, what-- well let's say [one word inaudible] used to call [one/two words inaudible] relaxation. It really is unconsciously (try to pick up--) your own home is the same. You have to be-- so you have-- during the day (your) eight hours work day, you have to be thinking of time in one direction, and then in the evening you need relaxation. And that an unconscious feeling that you have been occupied one-sided during the day and now you pick up the other side again. Mostly, it was in between sides in general. And-- but, business-- and you know what it's all about (when differences--) then you should make it more spiritual, not just hang before your television set. (bit of laughter) Try to find your relaxation in-- in higher, also to add in-- oh the higher aspect of your being, if I may call it that.

And if you-- through experience-- if you through experience learn to keep this balance, so let us say in fact learn to have your daily meditation, to-- to keep this up, your com-- or let's say communion with the higher power, then you can do both and then you can be effective and practical as necessary and at the same time keep your-- keep the other-- And there are no-- there are no adverse effects because you always keep also in harmony with your higher self. (Must I) briefly formulate it. But anyway, we have to try and in our daily-- As I said before, if you don't do that, then you get this-- you get many of the illnesses, you see, and it's a doctor on-- (at least) you'll begin to recognize (as) being caused by what's no-- now called psychosomatic-- psychosomatic reasons, and what psychology (has stated) now, ok, you know. It will come.

[27½ second pause]

S: (Go ahead.)

ABr: [one word inaudible] that sensation is so difficult. (laughter) Otherwise [few words inaudible] (bit more laughter) Yes, it's the most-- If you never have had an experience, then you-- you don't really know what you are looking for and-- At least, that was my attitude, you know, because-- Even you hear that it is necessary and you get all kinds of (little) how to do it that specifically you (can try) what I'm looking for. Yes. [short pause] But in that case it is-- it was helpful to add devotion. Because sometimes the devotion is clearer. Then you can take devotion, you can-- or [couple words inaudible] because you can really imagine a higher power, higher being, and feel your dependence. After all, who [one word inaudible] our-- this whole body of (ours). It's working all the time [one/two words inaudible] it could do anything about it [few words inaudible] power is working. This is our body so it will enable [couple words inaudible] It enables me to think and talk. So it's easier (I) think if you do that way. Just trust the power, it's working all the time (in you). And then-- and completely try and take some devotion [couple words inaudible]

AD: Speak up a little bit, Arthur. Speak up a little.

ABr: Yes.

S (faint): [few words inaudible]

ABr: Through devotion you gradually come into a certain mood that makes it easier to understand what we are looking for, what-- On that mood you can go a step further into meditation, which really means changing your identification. And the main-- the keyword of meditation of course is identification. We are so used to identifying with our thoughts and our body that it is difficult to understand that there's something else. And therefore I say when you start with devotion and get certain feelings, then you try to shift your attention from body and thought towards that feeling that's coming out. So, both attention and identification. Attention goes from body and feeling (just by even) if you close your eyes, you shut out your senses. So if you go from your-- if you bring your--

(Side 1 of original cassette tape digitized as 1984 0822a Ends; Side 2 Begins)

ABr: Well, that much I was saying [one word inaudible] before more clearly-- coming up more clearly into your consciousness. And you-- and you could (know) how to call it, in scientific terms it is called [one word inaudible] induction. Certain [few words inaudible] [25½ second pause] After all when you are with other people, you-- most of the time you pick up vibrations. So when you are in this sensitive state or with a Master, then the same thing happens. But, then these exceptional case that-- to be with someone that has this concentrative power in himself, but-- Of a higher being. So, it is not different from me, nor, see, in that sense that I said, that everyone has a certain aura around him. When you are with a person you experience this emanation, don't you? But in this case, you experience the [one word inaudible] of an exceptional being. (Well that's) called evolution developed to a high degree that-- what we are in reality all looking for and what we have in our self, only we have not spent so much time to develop this in our self. So, of course we all know that it is one thing which we all have (if we start) [one/two words inaudible] But it has to be developed. [short pause] A glimpse is a temporary uplifting. Then you can-- to encourage you that you know in which direction to go. [11¾ second pause]

And as we-- as we said before, as we are whole, we should also not forget that-- that this is necessary what we just said, that it has to be kept in balance with intellect and action. We know (they all) equal parts. But we are whole so we can't say you just meditate and then you come where you want to be. No, it has to be kept in balance with-- with the physical, same thing as you are learning here, and this unselfish action. Because human being is a whole, we are not only intellect or feeling(s). We are, as I said before, that our organs form together the human body, so we are also whole. So intellect and intuition and feeling and action have also become one. That's the purpose of these metaphysical studies. Otherwise, you see, only that-- only [one word inaudible] to your feelings and (towards) mind [few words inaudible] not world and that's not healthy. Your mind has to confirm what the feelings say and (try) to prove them.

[16¼ second pause]

S (faint): (Uh-hm.)

ABr (faint): I will leave the lecture now.

JfL: Uh-hm.

S (faint): Yeah.

S: Yeah.

ABr: And I'm only saying things that you know already [one word inaudible] [short pause] No problem.

[short pause]

LR: Arthur, can you tell us when you first came to-- about how you first came to meet PB?

ABr: How?

S: Yes.

SEEING PB IN THE NETHERLANDS

ABr: Well, I know people by writing a letter. (bit of laughter)

S: Great. (bit more laughter)

S (faint): Go ahead.

ABr: But it's-- we have to go back about forty years. When I-- I just finished my studies and I came across PB's books and for the first time of my-- in my life I wrote a letter to an author. See, it was in 1948. And-- and then, (what I think is great), and then he answered, yes, he would be traveling through our country which is the Netherlands in September, because he wanted to visit someone, and he came from Prague at that time. So he invited me if I wanted to see him in-- in my own country. So that happened in September.

S: Could you speak English then?

ABr: Yes.

S (very faint): Oh.

ABr: He came from Prague and he brought the-- the Czechoslovakian editions to show how beautiful they were bound-- bound.

LR: He brought what?

ABr: The Czechoslovakian editions to translate-- the translations include Czech, the Czech language. And they were beautifully bound in leather.

S (very faint): [few words inaudible]

ABr: And in cases. So-- and he brought too much to carry around in cases and cases. (laughter) Yes. Yeah so, we stayed at the same hotel as he was and had breakfast together. And I-- well almost naturally I offered my services. And so, we started right away with washing shirts. (laughter) As--

S: He's still doing it, (yeah). (laughter)

ABr: As-- as with writing letters and-- and booking for next plane or train, there was so much work to do. And-- and that has continued in next few years he came. At that time he came almost every year to (home). I think three or four times in '49 and '50 or '51. Each time I-- I met him at his hotel and-- and washed shirts again. (laughter) And also well-- because all the suits were [one word inaudible] and all these suitcases he had had to be unpacked and packed you see. (some laughter)

RC: Big train.

ABr: It was be-- we liked to carry around a number of things to make his hotel room livable, see. [couple words inaudible] (don't have) to see it. But we always had to take out many little things and create a personal atmosphere and [couple words inaudible] and to burn incense. And then, making phone calls, it was people who had written to him and wanted to see him, to invite them to come to our hotel, and-- and I had to interpret for those who didn't speak English. It was how things went at those times.

EC: Arthur? Were you a vegetarian before you met PB or did that come after?

ABr: I was a partial vegetarian I would say. As a child I didn't like meat but my parents forced me to eat. So when I met PB I-- (I) [couple/three words inaudible] Because I've never liked it, you know. So afterwards, no-- Oh the usual picture, that-- that PB was somewhere that-- it was mainly in my holidays because I have a normal job you see, so I had three or four weeks holiday and then I usually tried-- I wrote him and if I was going to come during my holidays. And-- well a number of times he-- he allowed me to come and help-- and help him during my holiday. (But that's) still 1970, you know, mostly in hotels somewhere, in Zurich or-- and in Copenhagen and where else, Amsterdam, in the Hague. And later, after '70, then he had (his/this) home in Lugano and Montreux and-- ok? That's all. That's what you mean?

S (very faint): Yes.

ABr: Yes. Well later, in later years I began to meet members of the group who also came there. Some of you I know-- I know from seeing and just [one/two words inaudible]

[9½ second pause]

S: Arthur? Were there a lot of people in the Netherlands that had read PB's books?

ABr: Yes but-- but not all wrote letters of course. (laughter) But there were a lot-- I think in '52 there were about 25 letters. And he (was out), in fact he said that I should write-- that it-- they should only come if they were still interested, you see, around to see your letter. So, of those 25 (became) only ten in the end. And a few of them I-- never again came back. Not all wanted to keep the contact up and also some of them have died. But I don't think there's anyone left from those whom I met then. After all [few words inaudible] But there are-- the books have been translated into Dutch, and they are out of print for many years already and some went through three printings [few words inaudible] two thousand people (who Americans). And the English editions which are the only ones available now are so (regulated). Not even in bookshops there. So [couple words inaudible]

S: Yeah.

ABr: But the-- I don't know them. Even he-- he does not look-- he does not look like [one word inaudible] It's all on an impersonal he tried to write [couple words inaudible]

[15 second pause]

AH: Was it-- were there groups elsewhere that you knew of or--

ABr: No. Not really. [couple words inaudible] now Larson. I can't-- I do not hope.

S: Yeah, it's another big affair. But I think also you've just-- you-- you know-- You just said that the Dutch editions are out of print, which is true legally that no Dutch publisher has them in print. But is it not true that a Flemish publisher in Antwerp--

ABr (simultaneously): Yes, you're right.

S: --is-- has issued and is completely [ABr assents] [one/two words inaudible] in Dutch.

ABr (simultaneously): Yes. Yeah but I forgot this. I forget that, yes.

S: So there is something (rotten).

ABr: Yes there are four books [S: Four.] published in Antwerp, yeah.

S: Yeah.

ABr: Yes, that's right. The reason that I forgot is that there's a problem with getting them to the Netherlands. I had to go to Antwerp to get them. And that's-- it's very-- that kind of thing.

[14¾ second pause]

THE PHOTOGRAPH

HE: Would you be willing to tell us something about the picture that we [S simultaneously: Yeah.] (don't/all) have? Where was it taken?

ABr (simultaneously): Yes but, unfortunately I-- I'm very forgetful and-- (bit of laughter) So-- so I know-- I know vaguely that I took the picture. It was-- it must have been in Lugano. And the-- the German publisher, Bauer, issued a journal called "Esotera" and they have for years been after PB to publish an article in "Esotera" that could help the sale of the books, you see. So at last PB sends them an article and they wanted a photograph to go with it. In fact he didn't like to go to a photographer, he asked me take photo, so we went to a park and where we took a series of photos. And I gave them to him and he made the choice, see, which one was to go into "Esotera". And the rest he-- he kept them, Randy must have come here. And this is-- (belong) I expect. Certainly not that (one/way).

BS: What did he say?

ABr: [few words inaudible]

BS (simultaneously, faint): (It's) which year?

S (faint): [few words inaudible]

ABr (simultaneously): [one/two words inaudible]

S (very faint): Yeah.

ABr: And I think that's the way it was then. Unfortunately I don't know the exact year, but when he stayed in Lugano it was '70, '71, '72. I-- and-- must be around that time, you know? '73 [one word inaudible] Oh in Lugano was only one or two years that he was-- That must be around that time. [short pause] Ok.

JB: There is in the tree in this photograph many subliminal faces, the appearance of many different faces.

ABr: (No.)

JB: You may have not wished to say but was the photo retouched in any way, is that the natural appearance? Do you recall if you ever retouched [one word inaudible]

ABr: I didn't do anything. (laughter) Because I just gave the photo to PB, that's all I've done.

S: What do you see in the tree?

RG (faint): I don't know.

JB: We have to show it around but there are many many faces compiling, they look like--

S (very faint): [couple/three words inaudible] (laughter)

S (amidst laughter, faint): (I) just don't want him to say it. [couple words inaudible]

S: May we look?

VM: Look inside, it's better.

[few seconds of background student talking, laughter]

S: There's a lot of work in subliminal photo.

S: That's right. (some laughter)

[few seconds of background student talking]

AD: I think if you looked at the picture inside it'd be much more of the point he's making. It's evocative of a lot of subliminal impressions, you know?

ABr (simultaneously): I must confess that I don't see it.

LR: What did Dickie say (of them)?

DR (simultaneously): What if PB didn't--

S (faint): I don't know, the picture inside.

AD: Picture inside.

S (faint): Picture inside is--

AD: Is the one that is capable of evoking many subliminal impressions from within your own mind.

ABr: Yes. Must be projection.

S: Yeah.

S (faint): (In fact--)

RC: He took it with the same camera that he used--

ABr: Yes, I still have (it).

RC: --Sunday night photograph, the party (we went). That little camera. Little tiny camera.

ABr: I still have it. [couple words inaudible] Instamatic. (laughter) You don't see it. [short pause] Well, that's all then. I shouldn't take up more of your time, you see.

RC (faint): Thank you very much, Arthur.

AD: Well, you know, since you two are here I was going to make a suggestion. You could sit out like a referee, you know. Let one of these people read a quote, and let them argue about it, and see what they do with a quote. (laughter) Would you like to try it out? They do sometimes slug it out but, they-- I think they'll refrain tonight. (laughter)

S: They'll refrain on our part. (bit of laughter)

S (faint): Ok. We're on good behavior.

AD: Why don't somebody read a quote and give us his understanding of what that quote is?

LR: Sure Avery.

ABr (possibly part of background): I couldn't hear [couple words inaudible]

AB: The one Sunday. (some laughter)

[few seconds of background student talking]

LR: Oh well, who's going to go? [three words inaudible]

AD: Well, come on, come on. I'm sure you must have a quote that you'd like to read in class and give your explanation?

LR: And?

AD: And have everybody else disagree with you? [few seconds of background student talking, some laughter] Alright. Suddenly bashful.

[few seconds of background student talking]

ABr: [one/two words inaudible] I can-- I'll prepare them.

[few seconds of background student talking]

AD: Michael, you go up front and read it and explain? Please?

MW (simultaneously): I got the page but I don't have a quote in front of me.

AD: Oh.

TS: It'd be better if (you) sit down.

ABr: Pardon?

TS: Would you rather come down and sit down or--

S (simultaneously): Are they always this shy or--

AD: No, they're usually very pugnacious and (defensive). (bit of laughter)

JfL: Well, I have a quote.

AD: Go ahead, Jeff. Read it.

JfL: Can I do it from here though? (laughter)

AD: Get up front and read it to us and tell us what you think it means. (And then--)

JfL (simultaneously): I'm doing this in part because Charlene assured me everyone will be kinder tonight. (laughter) Don't disappoint her, alright? (laughter)

S: [couple words inaudible] yesterday.

S: Yeah.

S: I'll be sleeping. (laughter)

RC (amidst laughter): [few words inaudible]

S: Ok, what page? (laughter)

JfL: I'm not telling. (laughter) 2-- 263 at the bottom.

AD: Clear and loud, huh? Some of us don't have a book.

JfL: Give that man a book back there and open--

CdA: Then I don't have a book.

S: Here's (a) book, I'll share it (with you).

RG: Real-- real bad. (RG laughs)

ABr: Oh I'm sorry. [S simultaneously: It's ok.] And thank-- thank you.

MYSTICISM, METAPHYSICS, PHILOSOPHY

JfL: It's a quote that we actually started a few weeks ago [Note: See WG Class 1984 0802.] and it was never finished. It's kind of long.

[11½ second pause with faint background student talking]

PB [V13, 20:4.115 & Persp., Ch. 20, #50, JfL reading]: "The highest contribution which mysticism can make is to afford its votaries glimpses of that grand substratum of the universe which we may call the Overself. These glimpses reveal It in the pure unmanifest non-physical essence that It ultimately is. They detach It from the things, creatures, and thoughts which make up this world of ours, and show It as It is in the beginning, before the world-dream made its appearance. Thus mysticism at its farthest stretch, which is Nirvikalpa samadhi, enables man to bring about the temporary disappearance of the world-dream and come into comprehension of the Mind within which, and from which, the dream emerges. The mystic in very truth conducts the funeral service of the physical world as he has hitherto known it, which includes his own ego. But this is as far as mysticism can take him. It is an illuminative and rare experience, but it is not the end. For the next task which he must undertake if he is to advance is to relate his experience of this world as real with his experience of the Overself as real. And this he can do only by studying the world's own nature, laying bare its mentalistic character and thus bringing it within the same circle as its source, the Mind. If he succeeds in doing this and in establishing this relation correctly, he will have finished his apprenticeship, ascended to the ultimate truth, and become a philosopher. Thenceforward he will not deny the world but accept it.

"The metaphysician may also perform this task and obtain an intellectual understanding of himself, the world, and the Overself. And he has this advantage over the mystic, that his understanding becomes permanent whereas the mystic's rapt absorption must pass. But if he has not passed through the mystical exercises, it will remain as incomplete as a nut without a kernel. For these exercises, when led to their logical and successful issue in Nirvikalpa samadhi, provide the vivifying principle of experience which alone can make metaphysical tenets real.

"From all this we may perceive why it is quite correct for the mystic to look undistractedly within for his goal, why he must shut out the distractions and attractions of earthly life in order to penetrate the sacred precinct, and why solitude, asceticism, meditation, trance, and emotion play the most important roles in his particular experience. What he is doing is right and proper at his stage but is not right and proper as the last stage. For in the end he must turn metaphysician, just as the metaphysician must turn mystic and just as both must turn philosopher--who is alone capable of infusing the thoughts of metaphysics and [the] feelings of mysticism into the actions of everyday practical life."

ABr: That's a good one. No one else has formulated this so clearly I think.

AD: You have to speak up.

ABr: I've never found someone else who formulated this so clearly.

AD: Formulated what? (laughter)

S (amidst laughter): You're invited--

AD (amidst laughter): Tell me what he formulated.

ABr: That mysticism and metaphysical thinking have to go together. Mystic feeling and metaphysical reasoning have to go together to make the philosopher. That's what I mean. I've found that nowhere else and-- unless you have. And fits in with what we said before, because man is a whole. We said it before. That feelings alone cannot bring you to the goal because we also have intellect. So, he says the threefold path: thinking, feeling, action. Nothing can be left out. If you want the permanent state, as you say. If-- of course if you are satisfied with only one, with a pu-- with a morning half hour of peace, then it's alright. But if you want the permanent state of insight, then you have to have all three in-- well developed and in harmony. Oh I'm sorry, I-- You should do a [one word inaudible] (laughter)

S: You're doing very (well/wonderful). (ABr laughs)

AD: Jeff, would you like to add to that?

JfL: Are you kidding? (laughter)

AD: What would you say is the most important remark there, what's the most important idea in that quote that you wanted to read to us?

JfL: The most important remark?

AD: The most important idea in the quote.

JfL: I would say that it's-- the thrust is that mysticism alone isn't enough. Reaching Nirvikalpa for example would not satisfy, as Arthur said, in the ultimate-- as the ultimate-- as the ultimate. You would have to incorporate the metaphysical. Likewise the metaphysical isn't complete in itself, [ABr: Yeah.] and that again both are necessary. And that only the Sage is really-- can take these things at the conclusion for the inspired action. You know--

LR: Jeff?

JfL: Yes?

LR: What do you think the difference is between the Overself as real and the world as real?

ABr: Difference?

S (faint): Uh-hm.

JfL: Well--

LR: You know, he has that sentence.

JfL: Yes, I know, actually--

LR: "He has to relate the Overself as real to the world as real."

JfL: Yeah well I think-- I think it's been mentioned before that, for the mystic, he has the experience where he knows that the Overself is real, it's a felt-- I suppose is a felt presence. And then he comes out of the trance state and he's presented again with his ego and the world experience and he has to eventually come to grips with that. And, to incorporate that he has to realize the mentalistic nature of the world so that they both sort of have a chance of-- of-- he has a chance of seeing that they're-- both of them have their source in Mind. So-- so that the Mind would eventually be seen as the source of-- as the source of both. Does that--

LR: Yeah I'm just wondering, you know, if they both have the same source--which [JfL assents] he capitalizes as Mind--[JfL assents] what kind of relation is it, what are the two terms that are being related in the quote?

JfL: What are the two terms that are being related?

LR: Yeah.

JfL: Well, um--

LR: In other words, Overself-reality, world-reality. And he says you have to-- in the ultimate stage you have to get to the point where the source is seen as the same. But before the source is seen as the ultimate principle, how do you understand the relation between those two terms as real?

JfL: Before I don't think it is seen as related. I think that's the trap that PB mentions is that most mystics tend to devalue the world in their experience, instead of realizing that it's really incomplete in itself. I think he also says that eventually that you're driven to it. But, I think that before he undertakes the metaphysical study in earnest, I think there isn't a relationship for him.

JB: Linda's question is a trap, Jeffrey: it's his experience of the two that have to be related, not the term.

S (very faint): Yeah. Yeah. (bit of laughter)

JfL: The ex-- That isn't a trap, (Jon)?

JB: No (there) [one/two words inaudible] (bit of laughter)

JfL: The experience--

JB: The quote-- the line says: "This next task which you must undertake is to relate his experience of this world as real with his experience of the Overself as real." The job that Linda posed for you is not really present in the quote.

LR: Well I'm sorry, I didn't mean to set a trap. (some laughter) I--

JfL: Well it's actually in part the interesting-- the question that I have about this quote [AD: Yeah.] is related to that.

LR: Yeah I mean the--

S (faint): What's-- what's the question?

S: What was the [LR simultaneously: He--] question?

S (simultaneously with S, very faint): Just read it.

S (very faint): What's it say?

JfL: Well for me, this one section here, when he says that--

AD: Jeff, I don't want one section, I want the whole quote explained.

JfL: You want the whole quote--

AD (simultaneously): The whole quote I want explained. I want all the subtleties of metaphysics brought into play. I want the division of your Soul as being psychological and metaphysical brought into play. [JfL: Ok.] I want the notion that the World-Idea and the individual I AM principle have to be brought into play.

JfL (simultaneously): Are both part of the-- ok.

AD: I'm not interested in the inclinations that you may have for one part of it.

JfL: Ok. This is in fact-- (bit of laughter)

RC (very faint): So much for being (nice). (some laughter)

RG: Yeah right.

S (faint): Ok.

JfL: Ok, here we have mysticism [diagram]. [drawing/writing] Here we have metaphysical study. Here we have action-- I forgot what he calls it. [S, faint: Action.] Feeling, thinking--

AD: Yeah, inspired action, the philosophic life, alright, sure.

JfL: Inspired action, yeah. I have this image in my mind only to make it clear 'cause it's really not that easy for me. Right here is where the apparent end for the mystic is in Nirvikalpa, is in that Nirvi-- Nirvikalpa.

AD: Make it sound like a terminal illness. (laughter, student words) In other words, he can-- that's the thought-free consciousness.

JfL: Thought-free consciousness.

AD: Yeah. Nirvikalpa.

JfL (simultaneously): The I AM principle.

AD: Uh-huh.

JfL: But, most mystics have attained this I--

AD: Most mystics that have attained that--

JfL: Have-- who have attained this, have attained it, I would say, as a shortcut--wait, wait, wait-- (laughter) in the sense that the-- [drawing] the bodies that were given to him were not really developed and all set to go, so he can't maintain that state. (some laughter) [S, faint: That's right.] So he now has to go back--

AD (simultaneously): Well no one could-- no one could maintain that state.

JfL: No one can maintain that state.

AD: No, you cannot maintain Nirvikalpa Samadhi. [S simultaneously, faint: There's no way (one/two words inaudible)] You cannot maintain a consciousness that's thought-free indefinitely. It's only for a period of time.

JfL: But we have-- isn't it-- isn't it that the mystic has to take that attention or take that concentration back to the World-Idea?

AD: Well he has to first achieve that thought-free consciousness, [JfL simultaneously: And doesn't he--] so that it could be used for a higher purpose.

JfL: Used for the higher purpose. Ok, and he has to [writing] turn that towards the world. I think that's what that [AD simultaneously: Uh-huh, good, ok.] thing is getting to, I thought that was the point.

AD (simultaneously): But, you see what you've done, right? You've established the I AM consciousness as a [JfL simultaneously: Right here.] principle in its own right.

JfL: Yeah. Right here [diagram].

AD: Uh-huh.

JfL: Ok. And this is where PB I think says most mystics stop and they go back and they deny everything else.

AD: Yeah you remember the example, Vivekananda asked Ramakrishna, he says, "Can't I have this for three or four weeks at one stretch?" Ramakrishna says, "There's something even better than that." I just throw that in as an example that there are those Hindus who recognize that Nirvikalpa is not the ultimate state. [JfL, faint: Right.] Alright, so Vivekananda says, "Ok, what do you want me to do?"

JfL: So he said? (laughter) No but (afterward) too.

AD: Huh?

JfL: I'm going to label this one [writing] 'psycho-somatic'. Alright?

AD: Don't label it psycho-somatic, no.

JfL: I wasn't going to. (laughter)

AD: You're in thought-free con-- [JfL simultaneously: I thought you wanted the whole thing.] if you achieve thought-free consciousness there's no psycho-somatic organism. [JfL simultaneously: I'm saying that--] Only when you come back.

JfL: I'm saying that this is [S simultaneously: Ok.] within the realm [S: Try it.] that we would say [S simultaneously: Yeah.] is psychology, and in that sense it's the development--

AD: Oh, alright Jeff, yeah.

JfL (simultaneously): Up until this point, every experience that a person has is for the most part pro-- is provided for by the ego and the individual.

AD (simultaneously): Yeah, you could point that as the more or less the psychological aspect.

JfL: Psychological. I was going to [AD simultaneously: Ok.] say psycho-somatic here [diagram], [AD: Yeah.] and then I was going to put the Soul here [diagram].

AD: Alright, and you call that-- that's your Soul, right?

JfL: Yes, this is the Soul. Don't jump ahead, this has to [one/two words inaudible] (laughter) This whole thing would--

AD (simultaneously): Louder Jeff.

JfL: This is-- this is-- this is very confusing for me because the individual now has to go back, apparently go back.

AD: Well he doesn't have to do anything, he just opens his eyes and there's the world.

JfL: He opens his eyes, there's the world.

AD: Yeah.

JfL: Ok. Now, to me the metaphysical studies have two ends to them, two aspects of them. One aspect [writing] is the one where you sit and you study and you read and you try and take these ideas that you're learning and put them into play during the day. That I'm considering metaphysical study. But these are all within the realm of sort of your normal-- what I would consider normal daily life. At this point the individual has the option of taking the Nirvikalpa experience for example, taking that attention, and now directing it inward and deeper. So now he can-- let's say the Serpent's Path or some exercise where the individual can introspect into the nature of his world, as he says-- "…by studying the world's own nature, laying bare its mentalistic character…" And that's-- ok. So I think that's the issue here, is that, once having reached the Nirvikalpa for example, he now can take this and deepen this insight, and now I would think that these are the grades where PB refers to the deepening of the insight, the various levels, and I'm assuming that these-- Still, I have a problem with this because I keep wanting to go back to the world experiences. Something happens and, you know, you're supposed to reflect on it or whatever, and so for me I'm, you know, somewhere over here [diagram]. But I have the impression from a quote like this that-- he says, you know, now it's like, you know, you penetrate the nature of the world, he's not talking about going back I don't think and taking the Nirvikalpa, it sounds like he's saying, ok, now you go-- you penetrate the World-Idea, you try to look for that spot and go for the source, the World-Mind. And I'm assuming that-- [drawing]

AD: Well wouldn't you have to start with a body?

JfL: Wouldn't you have to start with the body?

AD: Yeah. [few inaudible student words simultaneous with AD] I mean isn't it going to be the body that's going to provide you with [students assent, faint] the various kinds of consciousness that will give you an insight into the World-Idea? In other words, you have to become an inhabitant of a body and get to know about wakeful consciousness, an inhabitant of the dream life you become aware of Taijasa consciousness, alright. The deeper laws and-- will take you into the Prajna consciousness. In other words, is it the World-Idea which provides you with the necessary vehicles by which that Soul which you experience in Nirvikalpa, alright, knows now that it can understand the depths, or let's say the dimensions, the various levels of being that are in the World-Idea?

JfL: Yes. But, can an individual do this before this state by [couple words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): Well, what need, what need is there for such a hierarchy, before, after? I mean you're not taking a train. You are either a person that's competent, let's say, as a scientist and you investigate the nature of the World-Idea, or you're not. You could be a mystic and you're competent as far as psychological introversion is concerned. You can go inwardly and reach levels where there is no thought at all. Alright?

JfL: Uh-hm.

S: Yeah.

JfL: Will this-- will this actually reveal understanding, going to Nir-- I mean, I thought of Nirvikalpa--

AD: No. It doesn't reveal understanding.

JfL (simultaneously): Then it's not-- I thought-- I thought you were saying that a scientist let's say could go one direction, the mystic can introvert and realize that the--

AD (simultaneously): The mystic will introvert and find out what the nature of his own Soul is, his own essence, [JfL simultaneously: Ok.] his own being. But this does not automatically include an understanding of the nature of the World-Idea. In order to understand that World-Idea he has to go into the World-Idea. What does that mean? It means he has to investigate, has to go into a product of the World-Idea, a body that is created by the World-Mind, and through that body acquire experience of the nature of the World-Idea.

JfL: Great, that's--

AD: No, that's just a start. [JfL simultaneously: Ok, then when he--] (That's only just openers.)

JfL: Ok when he says then that-- he says that he does this "only by studying the world's own nature, laying bare its mentalistic character". You're-- that's what-- that's what you're saying that is.

AS: That-- that sounds sort of like Linda's question about to relate his experience of this world as real with his experience of the Overself as real. He's had an experience of the Overself as real, if you follow this particular mystic path. Now he has to understand something of what the reality of the world is. And in order to do that he has to uncover its true nature by delving into the world and finding out the ideation which is behind or which is manifesting as this world.

JfL: Again, that sounds to me like the Serpent's Path, you know, when--

S (faint): Right.

LR: Uh-hm.

S: No I-- I--

AD (simultaneously): Very specifically, how does it sound to you like the Serpent Path?

JfL: Because-- just the way Avery said it it sounds as though-- "seeking out its source" to me sounds like the World-Mind as the source of the World-Idea is, you know, penetrating into that essence. [few inaudible student words simultaneous with JfL] You got--

AS: The "laying bare [RG: Mentalistic character.] its mentalistic character," I'm just-- I was just saying seeing-- seeing the obverse side of that appearance as the nature of ideation, not necessarily. I mean that's why-- [S: Go ahead.] If that were so then you would-- I mean it seems this is allowing either-- either side to unfold first. [JfL: Right.] And he could metaphysically-- you know, in a-- in-- through metaphysical thinking penetrate to the nature of the world as ideation, without having-- without necessarily having the Nirvikalpa experience.

JfL: Well that's what he says in the sen--

AS (simultaneously): But then-- Yeah. Well then you would need-- you would need it to be vivified.

JfL: Right, that's--

AS: That's-- but I was just saying that if-- Well it seems that this is how he bring-- bringing this-- bringing it within the same circle as its source, the Mind, is-- is going to establish some kind of a relationship there between his Overself as real, as this principle of consciousness, and the world as based on this ideation. If he ca-- if he can lay bare the nature of the world as ideation.

RG: What do you think Mind is there?

AS: In this partic-- oh. "…bring it within the same circle as its source, the Mind."

AD (simultaneously): What was that?

RG (simultaneously with AS): What is the--

AD (simultaneously with AS): What was that?

RG: What is the meaning of Mind (there/though)?

AD: It's irrelevant right now, I don't want-- I don't want to jump to that, that's a conclusion. Because you're going to understand ultimately that Overself is a particle of Mind and you're going [AS simultaneously: It's (couple words inaudible)] to understand that the World-Idea belongs to the World-Mind and that's a particle of Mind. And so ultimately these two are Mind and you have nondualism. I'm not interested in the [LR simultaneously: But, he does--] conclusion now. [one inaudible student word] I'm interested in him understanding what the principles are that are being laid out in this quote.

LR: The thing-- the thing that's interesting is he also calls the Overself the grand substratum of the universe, at the beginning of the quote.

JfL: Uh-hm.

AS: Yeah, what do you say about that?

AD (simultaneously): Well what's wrong with that? Anything?

S: [couple words inaudible]

JfL (simultaneously): It's out of whi-- (that's out/outside) of the Overself that the World-Idea is manifested.

AS: But it-- is it-- isn't it also that that consciousness is the substratum of your universe.

JfL: Uh-hm, isn't that-- I thought that was pretty much the same thing.

AS: That-- no I think it's [one word inaudible]

JfL (simultaneously): If you-- you manifest that.

AS: I think he's saying slightly-- something slightly different, I think he's saying there that-- that the substratum is that permanent awareness or pure awareness (to/through) which any content or any thought is revealed.

PB [V13, 20:4.115 & Persp., Ch. 20, #50, AS rereads part of]: "These glimpses reveal It in the pure unmanifest non-physical essence that It ultimately is. They detach It from the things, creatures, and thoughts [AS: Namely the whole vibratory World-Idea.] which make up this world [of ours], and [AS adds: they] show It [AS: The Overself or the pure Soul.] [as It is] in the beginning, before the world-dream made its appearance."

RG: But he is (going--)

AS: The substratum doesn't necessarily mean that [LR simultaneously: Source.] that's the source [LR, faint: That's right.] from which-- 'Cause he doesn't recognize-- I don't-- I don't think he's saying that in this he recognizes that the very source of this World-Idea is the Overself.

RG: No I think he's saying that in the next-- in the second paragraph.

JfL: Wait, why don't you think this "It" is the Overself, Avery, I don't--

AS (simultaneously): It is, the "It" is.

JfL: Oh, wait.

AS: I-- It is. "These glimpses reveal It," the Overself, "and they detach It," the Overself, "from things, creatures" and so on.

JfL: From all the thoughts.

AS (simultaneously): And show-- Yeah, from all thoughts to show the Overself as the Overself is before the world dream.

JfL: Before--

AS: But there's no-- but there's no necessity in this experience of understanding any relation to that world dream.

RG: Not in the Nirvikalpa.

JfL: Right.

AS (simultaneously): Not-- not within the Nirvikalpa.

S: Uh-hm.

RG: But-- but in the other experience when--

AD: What other experience?

RG: When he's trying to understand the nature of the world--

AD: Yeah.

RG: --and (it's/its) mental--

AD: So how would you start?

RG: I would say that first I would-- I-- he would recognize the mentalistic nature of all his thought, that it is a manifestation of his mind.

AD: And you go from there, right?

RG: Yeah. Well I'd start--

AD (simultaneously): Until you get to Prajna itself.

RG: Yeah. But-- but I would start there, I mean I would start there, he says "our experience of the world-- of this world as real with his experience of the Overself as real which he can do only by studying the world's own nature, laying bare its mentalistic character." Now the world's mentalistic in two senses. I mean as individually mentalistic, it's an unfoldment of his own mind, or his-- or his Overself, I mean--

AD: Well, wouldn't you say, wouldn't you say that his Mind, his own Mind or the Overself or Soul, is manifesting the World-Idea, and that the World-Idea is not his World-Idea?

RG: Right. And that would be the cosmic mentalism level. But on an individual level you would have to say that the thoughts-- his perception of the world arises from within his own consciousness and it-- And if you trace the stuff of that idea-- one way to trace it back is to his own ideation. The mind-- the individual mind gives the form and the World-Idea gives the substance. Now at the second level, I could see that the World-Idea arises from a source other than the individual Overself, it arises from the Cosmic Soul or World-Mind which is putting forth--

AD: But aren't they the same? Isn't the Overself a particle of the World Mind?

RG: Yes, the Overself is a phase of the World-Mind.

AD: So then the World-Mind is behind both.

RG: Yeah.

AD: Then you have nondualism.

RG: You didn't want to go there.

AD: Yeah. I didn't want to go that fast--before.

MW (simultaneously): (Can) Plotinus [few words inaudible] (bit of laughter) Anthony?

[Audio File 1984 0822a Ends]

[Audio File 1984 0822b Begins]

AD: You begin to get this awesome, you know, notion, that on the one hand, there's this absoluteness of your Soul as a principle in its own right, and the World-Idea which it manifests, and it can investigate into the nature of that World-Idea, and that investigation is endless. But you can, you know, get to the main principles, you can see the main principles that are carried on within it.

LR: Is that why there's no such thing as omniscience in that sense?

AD: It's impossible, there can't be.

JB: What's the need for the body to do that latter investigation?

AD: Why the need for a body?

JB: I believe you said earlier--

AD: Well how could you participate for instance into the nature of the sensible world without a body?

JB: Well would that--

AD: Yeah.

JB: Some of the teachers, right?

AD: That what?

JB: If there's a-- if there's an incalculably unattainable number of teachers, the sense teachers are just some.

AD: No but, Jonathan, in a general way, if you wanted to get some experience, the nature of the sensible world, [JB: Yes.] you have to have a sensible body through which you can participate in that sensible world. So that when in astrology you have certain aspects going on and the formation of perception is altered by those aspects, you know that you are a participant in that world. And the same thing will happen for instance if you wish to participate in the nature of the subtle world. You must have a vehicle, a subtle vehicle, which can participate in the subtle idea of the world. [RG assents] And then you go even deeper and try to participate in the nature of the absolute Idea of the world, and for that you must have a kind of body that Ishvara provides and you can call that the Prajna consciousness.

RG: Right.

JB: So I actually think I have understood in that a being with just a subtle body or just Prajna consciousness, if you imagine such a being, would have some attainment of this deeper World-Idea.

AD: Yeah.

JB: Ok. Proceed.

AD: Now, there's a shortcut that PB's recommending is: get to the point, find out that the nature of the World-Idea is mentalistic, and immediately you'll arrive at the notion that behind it all is Mind. And you already have the information that in Nirvikalpa your authentic being is Mind--these two together are nondual, and you come up with the doctrine of nondualism. Can you get all this out of this quote? If you can't you haven't read the quote properly. [JfL: Um (one word inaudible)] There's more, too.

JfL: One-- And something else that he sort of implies here is that Nirvikalpa seems to be the necessary prerequisite before the--

AD: Well, that's-- that's a name, you know. Nirvikalpa's a name.

JfL (faint): Ok.

AD: "Thought-free consciousness" is better, we'll-- you'll understand each other. So when you take the exercise in the Serpent's Path, remember he has a passage where he says-- he said now, what is needed in this exercise is a dynamically alert attention, one that won't, so to speak, renegade, I'm paraphrasing now. (bit of laughter) And with this attention you try or you aim to get in between two thoughts.

Now the two thoughts is the World-Mind pulsation of the World-Idea. Alright? Now if the World-Mind pulsates, alright, delivers the World-Idea one thought after the other, you are basing yourself on the fact that you're a Soul--first principle--that you're this pure consciousness, basing yourself on that fact. That is the principle of consciousness which is going to be inserted between two ideas that the World-Mind is projecting forth, alright, so that you can see that the ultimate substratum of the World-Idea is the World-Mind. [AS: That--] And you speak about getting to the Void.

AS: Yeah, in that sense that-- You would have to say that in that pulsating World-Idea is included all three of the possible states--in other words, all levels--so this is the so-called Short Path because you're not tran-- you're not going up or ascending through the various levels of the World-Idea. That's where you're getting behind all the levels of that vibratory World-Idea to get to the substratum in Mind. And that-- I have another e-- 'cause that-- I was thinking about these-- these states and maybe this is-- is it--

FOUR SCHOOLS OF BUDDHISM IN "BIRTH OF THE UNIVERSE"; SYNTHESIZING VEDANTA AND BUDDHISM TO GET THE COMPLETE DOCTRINE

AD (simultaneously): Well, before, before [AS simultaneously: Ok.] you go on with that, that was one of the things that I'd like to bring up. Those of you that are interested could do something like this, and Andrew, you might be the one. If you take the chapter on the "Birth of the Universe," you'll find the four schools of Buddhism in there. [student assents, faint] And then if you take the chapter on the dream-- dreaming self and the next one, the--

S: "Metaphysics of Sleep".

S: Go ahead.

AD: I--

S: Sleep.

AS: And "Metaphysics of Sleep".

S (simultaneously): "Metaphysics of Sleep".

AD: "Metaphysics of Sleep," alright, and you'll see that there he's talking about the self as a vehicle which is provided by the World-Mind. It's only when he gets to the "Immortal Overself" that you get to the vehicle which is your own personal Soul, your I AM principle. [student assents, faint] And you can see how PB's putting all this stuff together and, you know, re-interpreting all these ancient doctrines and synthesizing them into a whole. But you could do that if you read the Wisdom very carefully.

AH: If we've already started that project--

S: It's that one?

AH: We've been working on that. Any clues you might offer would be welcome.

AD: Well, I think now you can understand the point that-- in that quotation when PB says that too bad, you know, that the Vedanta and the Buddhist are so antagonistic because you need the two of them together to get the complete doctrine. Because the Vedantists are always constantly investigating or are preoccupied with the nature of what we might call the epistemological subject. And the Buddhists are always preoccupied with the nature of experience or the substratum of the World-Idea. And so they're always arguing against each other, to no avail.

S (faint): Yeah.

AH: In that chapter, you've suggested the hypothesis about you might find the four schools of Buddhism.

AD: Yeah.

AH: Is that to say that it would be possible to unravel that chapter in a way where you would see or be able to see four perspectives in epistemology?

AD: Not in epistemology, in ontology or cosmology.

S (simultaneously, faint): No, cosmology.

AD: In other words, if you make an analysis of the cosmological situation, you would have to come up with these four schools, the Vaibhashika, Sautrantika, etc. And they would be-- they wouldn't be delineated in the chapter but the references will be there. And in that order, in the historical order. In other words, after the Sautrantikas come the Pransangikas, not the Yogacara. The Yogacaras come last. Historically speaking that is correct too. You want to do a little more? (laughter) You want to do a little more on that quote? Yeah that's what these quotes entail.

S (faint): Yeah I know that.

JfL: I would like to know what--

AD: Anybody who gets up there and tries to read a quote without having meditated on it is, you know, heading for trouble over here. (laughter)

LR: That's right.

S: That's right.

RG: Yeah.

AD: Now they require meditation.

FIRST "WHO AM I", THEN "WHAT AM I"

JfL: In this-- in the second paragraph where he says--

PB [V13, 20:4.115 & Persp., Ch. 20, #50, JfL rereads part of]: "The metaphysician may also perform this task and obtain an intellectual understanding of himself, the world, and the Overself."

JfL: What we were just talking about. I don't-- you know, when you said Prajna and these (little) bodies, I assume that those are like the Sunlike body and the Noeron, is that right?

AD: Yeah.

JfL: Ok. So then these are-- if a person works at developing these bodies, these are then a permanent attainment of the individual, is that correct?

AD (simultaneously): These are what?

JfL: A permanent attainment for the individual. So that he maintains these, regardless of incarnation.

AD: Well sure, the adept or the philosopher-- it's not, you know, something that-- it's not a faculty that is, you know, not available to him, it's always available. He could reuse it any time he wants. And he could use it in the shortest amount of time, you know, he doesn't have to sit down, prepare himself and all that. By the time he sits down he's already in that state.

JfL: But-- wait, did you say for the philosopher?

AD: Yeah.

JfL: Do you mean the Sage? Or did you--

AD (simultaneously): Yeah. Well, what else?

JfL (simultaneously): Well--

AS (faint): Yeah.

JfL: Right. Well here though he's-- he's making it sound as though the men-- the act you're just describing, the way the mystic often approaches it, he says now--

PB [V13, 20:4.115 & Persp., Ch. 20, #50, JfL rereads part of]: "The metaphysician may also perform this task and obtain an intellectual understanding of himself, the world, and the Overself."

JfL: So then we're not talking about a Sage here, we're talking about an individual.

AD: Well when you combine the two, you'll come up with a Sage.

JfL: Right, when you combine the two.

AD (simultaneously): Yeah.

AS: Right, yeah that's--

ABr/S(?): [couple words inaudible]

AS: Isn't he saying here that [one/two words inaudible] you could-- you could put it, obtain an intellectual understanding of these various levels. [JfL: Yeah.] But then you would still need to bring in the other side and pass through the mystical exercises, in order to make these experiences not intellectual but reality.

JfL: Uh-huh.

LD: He's not making a hierarchy of what has to come first--the "who am I" or the "what am I"--I don't see it.

S: Uh-huh.

LD: Either one--

AD (simultaneously): There is a natural hierarchy, Lou.

AS: Right, (there is).

S (simultaneously): I think there is.

S (faint): Yeah.

AS (faint): Yeah.

AD: You remember what Atmananda told this person who was capable of achieving Nirvikalpa? When he come out, he says, "Now," he says, "use your mind to understand the World-Idea, [LD simultaneously: So you're saying there is a hierarchy.] so that you can become a philosopher."

AD: Huh?

LD: You're saying there is a hierarchy.

AD: It's a natural hierarchy. But look, let's keep in mind that a person who achieves thoughtless-- thought-free consciousness--that's quite an achievement. I mean, it's an extraordinary thing.

LD (simultaneously): Ok, but-- but then it depends on what you've described as "what is the world". If you equate that with a Sahaja state of consciousness or with a scientific--

AD: No, Sahaja can only be the result of an understanding of the World-Idea within the Soul. That's the only way you're going to have Sahaja. But the point is, I'm not trying to create a hierarchy, I'm saying it just exists naturally. The person who's achieved Nirvikalpa--and that's no mean achievement--has gone quite a way. And you get a Sage like Atmananda or PB comes along and tells you, "Now you got to go further. Use that consciousness, use that ability to understand the nature of the World-Idea." And when you've succeeded now you can go further and become a philosopher. And then you can go even further than that, alright, and just become a man, forget all the rest.

LD: So you're saying that--

AD: Because philosophy's for your use. [AS assents, faint] You're not here for philosophy, philosophy's here for you.

LD: So you're saying you have to know the substratum, the unchanging substratum of your own psychological entity before the actual experience of a momentary consciousness of the world?

AD: No! No! No!

AS (simultaneously): [couple words inaudible] no he doesn't say that.

LD: Ok, then I just [AS simultaneously: He--] don't understand what he's saying.

AD: No, you take a good scientist, alright, who is capable--

LD (simultaneously): I'm not talking intellectual [one word inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): No, let me give you an example, a good scientist who's capable of tremendous concentration, alright, Heisenberg! [LD: Right.] He never studied yoga! He got Nirvikalpa, just by concentrating with all the might he had on the problems he had.

LD: So either way you study, if you study the objective or the subjective, you're going to come up with Nirvikalpa. And then after Nirvikalpa you've [one word inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): But in his case it was very unusual, wasn't it?

LD: Yeah very.

AD: He was studying the nature of the World-Idea.

S (faint): Yeah.

LD: Right.

AS: That's why-- that's why [few words inaudible]

LD: And then ei-- you're going to come up with Nirvikalpa. And then once that is manifest, then your actual experience of momentary--

AD (simultaneously): Well what do you think Nirvikalpa is!?

LD: It's an experience of the static consciousness of your own Soul.

AD: Ok, ok. You remember when we used the chart of Einstein to give an example, when the idea of relativity came in, where there was a state of absolute non-cognition? [LD: Uh-huh.] To us it seems like non-cog-- [LD assents] That's Nirvikalpa.

S (faint): Right.

AS: In other words, could I--

S: Yeah.

AD: You don't have to have wing.

LD: But content was brought in with that.

AD: No that came later.

AS (simultaneously): No only afterward.

AD: That comes later.

AS: See, you're-- you're basically-- If we were to translate this in our cosmological symbol(s), would you say that the-- the realization of the state of undivided mind would be thought-free? You-- would you equate that? I mean if we were really to put it in a--

AD: No (because--)

AS: [few words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): No, I would identify that thought-- thought-free consciousness with the Soul of the Sun.

AS: That's what I'm-- that's what I meant.

AD: If that's what you mean, yeah.

AS: Yeah, if you say-- yeah. If we say that beyond the realm of the Earth's sphere [AD: Yeah.] you talk about the Soul of the Sun. And that would be-- that would be getting to-- attaining that would be getting to the thought-free state, or the state of his own Soul. State of his Soul. Well-- but then, in Louis'-- [short pause] Ok.

LD: Ask it.

AS: Ok. Yeah what he just said about [someone drawing] [few words inaudible]

[short pause]

AD: Alright, you get an idea now? This is what is required to understand a quote, right?

BS: Is the state of Nirvikalpa conditioned by the object of concentration?

AD: There's no condition in Nirvikalpa.

BS (faint): Not by any [couple words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): No conditions whatsoever. It's absolutely unconditioned.

TEMPORARY GLIMPSES VS. PERMANENT UNDERSTANDING

TS: There's a sentence I'd like to ask about.

AD: Louder.

TS: I'd like to ask you something about this sentence in the second paragraph, he says--

AD: Then read it.

TS: Yes, um-- In the second paragraph he says--

PB [V13, 20:4.115 & Persp., Ch. 20, #50, TS rereads part of]: "The metaphysician may also perform this task and obtain an intellectual understanding of himself, the world, and the Overself."

TS: Now this is-- it's the next sentence I want to ask you something about.

PB [V13, 20:4.115 & Persp., Ch. 20, #50, TS rereads part of]: "And he has this advantage over the mystic, that his understanding becomes permanent whereas the mystic's rapt absorption must pass."

TS: Now, the question I want to ask is something like this: the understanding that the metaphysician, not the philosopher, but the understanding that the metaphysician evolves, isn't that in the lower mind?

AD: Well, it can be available to the lower mind.

TS: It can be available to the lower mind.

AD: But it won't be such a low mind.

TS: Well, in the sense that--

AD (simultaneously): What do you mean by lower mind?

TS: A mind which is-- which arises with the creation of the individual, as part of the World-Idea.

AD: Well, let me try this way, maybe I could reach you this way--do you mean the seven Chaldeans?

S: What do you mean [couple words inaudible]

TS (simultaneously): No, I mean-- I mean the trans-- the three trans-Saturnians in the natal chart.

AD (simultaneously, faint): Three trans-Saturnians.

TS: But those are specific to the individ-- they are configured in a unique way for the individual life. They have a beginning, an arisal, an existence with that individual, and a return to the cosmos. They return to the cosmos.

AD (simultaneously): Well, try again Tim.

TS: So the question is, that it seems strange that the vivifying principle which Nirvikalpa Samadhi provides, which is the-- I would say the efflux or the life activity of the Soul itself, the higher Soul, seems here to be something that is not permanent. And yet he says that the understanding, which is part of what I would understand to be a changing [AD simultaneously: Oh I see what you're getting at.] process within the World-Idea--

AD: Yeah, I see what you're getting at. Basically, rapture and ecstasy come from where? In terms of our, you know, symbolism. [couple inaudible TS words simultaneous with AD] They come basically from the Chaldean.

TS: Rapture and ecstasy come from the Chaldeans?

AD: In other words, the body.

VM: Experiencing the self, right.

AD (simultaneously): Look, 'ecstasis' means you're out of the body!

VM: Right, right.

S: Which is [few words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): Alright? Now that's temporary, no matter how you try. You get a glimpse of the Overself, whether it's for a minute or for an hour or for a day--when it goes, it's over.

TS: Alright. But [AD simultaneously: (Yeah./Ok?)] the ecstasy may be something which is the annihilation of the consciousness associated with the Chaldeans. But that which generates that ecstasis seems to be the Soul's act which is a life-force.

AD (simultaneously): Well let's-- let's call it the unembodied psyche.

TS: Yeah. Well-- Unembodied psyche, it's not the undivided mind?

AD: I'm sorry?

TS: I thought that we were speaking-- would you say--

AD (simultaneously): The unembodied psyche would represent this permanency.

TS: Now by unembodied psyche do you mean-- do you mean here what Avery was speaking of as the Soul of the Solar Logos?

AD (simultaneously): No, no. If we're speaking about a permanent acquisition, [TS: Yes.] that your understanding is permanent, alright, [TS: Yes.] where would you point to in the chart?

TS: Beats me.

AD: Would you point to the transiting planets? Isn't that a spontaneous functional wisdom? And that you now more or less identified with that rather than with the chart? In other words when the Soul looks down it gets confused. Alright, when it looks up, identifies with what's above, it knows what it is to do. So if the Soul identifies, so to speak, with the disembodied life, alright, that knowledge is permanent. If it identifies with states of feeling or the forms of perception given to it by the body, you know, the Chaldean planets, that's impermanent.

TS: Ok, let me see if I can run this backwards.

S: That ought to be--

LR: Might as well [possibly one word inaudible]

TS: The understanding of the metaphysician requires, if it's truly understanding, is not something which is peculiar to his own individual mind which is constellated by the Chaldean process.

AD (simultaneously): Yeah what you-- what you're speaking about-- this understanding that you're talking about is the activity of the Logos [TS: The activity of the--] in the individual Soul.

TS: Yeah. So the activity of the Mind of the World?

S: Yeah.

TS: The activity of--

AD (simultaneously): His version of it.

TS: Yeah.

AD: In other words, every-- you know, everyone has the Logos within him, alright. This Logos becomes operative at a certain level of development.

TS: Then that operation of that Logos is what you would speak of as the person associating himself more with the constant activity of the transiting planets rather than their relation to the individual chart or the natal chart itself, the presuppositions which are [AD assents, faint] congealed in the natal chart. And what-- being as that is coextensive with the Mind of the Earth, the activity of the Mind of the Earth, the version that the individual has within himself is not separate from the activity of the Mind of the Earth, that understanding as a perpetual activity once associated with--

AD (simultaneously): Tim, you're complicating it. Can't you sim-- can't you simply say the identification proceeds to the functioning of the spontaneous wisdom?

S: And that's--

TS: Alright, now, if that-- that's so far so good. But--

AD: Then let's stop here.

S (faint): Right.

S (very faint): Yeah.

AD: Let's stop here. I'm out of wind, Tim.

TS: Alright.

S: But in a general sense then you're talking about the growth of understanding.

TS: Well, and then I was trying to get to this other business of why is it that the glimpse of the higher soul, the vivifying act of the soul is transitory where the permanent-- the understanding seems permanent.

VM: Look, wouldn't you say the fact that there is a glimpse of the permanent soul must have something to do with the particular configuration of the chart at that moment, [TS assents] you can't say that the Overself per se is a transitory once in a while thing.

TS: Right.

VM: So it must be something to do let's say while you have the right configuration within the transiting planets and-- and in the natal chart, and the way that light can push through that normal fog that you operate with. That's maybe why it's temporary because that psychosomatic organism is continuously being transformed.

TS: In other words, you're saying that a glimpse rests on the-- on--

VM: On the breaking down of the normal inhibitions to it.

TS (simultaneously): The breakdown of your nor-- yeah, ok, the breakdown of the association with the body.

VM: Right, and then you have to [couple words inaudible]

TS (simultaneously): And therefore it has to be temporary because the body itself is temporary [VM simultaneously: Or dynamic.] whereas the understanding-- or the understanding being (towards that) would be activity of the un-- unembodied mind. Once that's found or discovered you can maintain it.

VM: Right, right.

TS: But it seemed to change course [one word inaudible]

VM: It does seem when you pointed out how it is strange, why should that [one/two words inaudible] to come from the Overself be [one/two words inaudible] whereas the understanding [TS simultaneously, faint: Yeah (one/two words inaudible)] which we seem to build up through our own personal effort be the permanent one.

S: Well I think that--

VM: I don't know if I'm [TS simultaneously: Yes.] correct in making that speculation but it makes sense to do it that way to me.

JfL: I think part of it too is when (we starting a point) with-- with Dickie, that he-- he should be [one word inaudible]

LR (simultaneously): Jeff, talk louder.

VM: Yeah, I can't hear you now, Jeff.

JfL: I thought one of the points that he was making earlier was just that, as these different bodies are developed, then, you know, these glimpses, you know, for example, are not able to be maintained because you don't have the corresponding vehicle to hold it in a sense, you know, kind of like jumping into this prematurely in a sense. Like when he says that the--

VM (faint): Oh I see what you're saying there (now. I don't know how I feel).

JfL: Yeah.

S (faint): Go ahead.

S (simultaneously, faint): Go ahead.

DB: Isn't it so that if the-- the understanding that the metaphysician develops over a period of time, if it's a correct understanding, it's of a-- insofar as it's a reflection of the real within that individual Soul vehicle, I don't see how it could help but be permanent. Once it achieves a level of-- of accuracy, there would be no need within the World-Idea for it to change. I mean it could perhaps be elaborated and so on and so forth but it's a-- if you have a moment of real understanding, that's always going to be a permanent fixture. I mean that goes from life to life. [student assents, faint] And-- and the particular lower mind that you happen to end up with in any given incarnation would have aspects about it, it wouldn't be [few words inaudible] the first place.

S (faint): Uh-hm.

JfL: Well I-- I agree that reflection is how the-- you know, sort of gaming those different levels out. I don't really understand that but-- Again, you know, it seems like-- it seems like the different bodies-- I-- It's like I-- I'm not sure if it's a fair analogy but when he says that there's a different grades of illumination, you know, it's like you see, you know, through the (pane/pain) a little clearer and clearer, I think these are, you know, in effect stages that can be done metaphysically irregardless of the mystical development, but these would provide the background so that the mystic has-- or the individual has a complete understanding of the mystical states when he actually has it, the mystic doesn't, you know, in the Nirvikalpa.

RG (simultaneously): But you know, the way Anthony described it-- the way Anthony is describing this intellectual understanding is no way we usually talk about [student assents] [S simultaneously: Yeah, this is (one word inaudible)] intellectual understanding of the chart--

S (simultaneously): [couple words inaudible]

S: Uh-hm.

RG: --of the World-Idea where the ego is kind of obliterated and your standpoint is-- is transformed to be that of the World-Idea manifesting in the individual. Well what kind of understanding is that?

JfL: Well you know, that's what was bothering me because the only-- he just seems to speak of it too-- he's not around is he?

S: Yeah.

S: No.

JfL: [couple words inaudible] (bit of laughter) It's like, when he was talking originally he says, you know, how else do you do it, he says well you have a body, you go back to that and then you go through these experiences. And then other times he goes and he says, well, it can only be done by penetrating the World-Mind. How else would you ever have any understanding of the-- These seem to me to be-- maybe they're complementary.

VM: No [couple words inaudible] the world--

AS (simultaneously): But he didn't talk about the final-- but he didn't talk about the final realization, he just-- he talked there about stages of that understanding, there are levels of that World-Idea. [student assents] Oh and [bell rung] the final one is the--

VM: (Yay), what happened?

RG/S(?): That was a mental bell.

LD: It is real hot and stuffy. Maybe we should--

RC: We could take a break for a little while? [AS, faint: Yeah.] (People) want to come back and-- and carry on more afterwards, that'd be fine. Is that ok?

[students assent, faint]

AS (simultaneously): I--

[couple seconds of background student talking, bit of laughter]

MB: It's too hot.

RC: It's too hot. Real uncomfortable.

S: Right.

S: Yeah.

TS: Well--

[Audio File 1984 0822b Ends]