Saturday, September 29th, 1984

Wisdom's Goldenrod's Interview with His Holiness the Dalai Lama in Middlebury, VT

September 29, 1984 (Saturday Afternoon)

TOPIC: Dalai Lama audience

SUBJECT: Wisdom's Goldenrod

SUBSUBJECTS: Buddhism, Two Kinds of Consciousness, Non-duality, Emptiness, Clear Light

CONTENTS:

What can we do to help Anthony?

Anthony took on the great responsibility of showing how various systems have a similar idea

Question about two kinds of consciousness, changing and changeless

Two kinds of phenomena in Buddhism

Emptiness and clear light

Non-duality

Be a good human being, warm heart; that's most important

Amitabha Buddha

Tonglen

BOOKS READ FROM OR REFERENCED:

• Paul Brunton, Notebooks

• Maitreyanatha, Aryasanga, The Sublime Continuum of the Great Vehicle (Uttaratantra)

NOTES:

• Earlier transcript version done in 1984 (Scan File 19840929 DAL WGR F08.PDF).

• The translator is Jeffrey Hopkins.

• Originally tape recorded by a WG member; there may have been two different recordings.

• Blue Book indicates that the video tape for this event is lost and the last person who had it was Rita Lustgarten.

TRANSCRIBED Verbatim by IT prior to 2018 (V11a), reformatted by jf 2018. This is V12a (2023) and has: one more pass with various listening errors corrected; updated prefatory matter, footer, and audio file name; Book List and TOC completed; Subsubjects section redone; note updated within transcript; minor errors corrected; new formatting to accord with new conventions. Archival verbatim transcript – V12a.

AUDIO FILES: 1984 0929a. [Note 1: "Tape" and "Side" refer to original audio cassette tapes that were later digitized into .MP3 Audio Files. Note 2: We have two duplicate audio files for this event. One of them was mislabeled 1984 0930a but is now 1984 0929a (2). It was used to transcribe the first ½ minute of Side 2 because the sound quality is better for that piece of it. It also has music at the end of it.]

Wisdom's Goldenrod's Interview with His Holiness the Dalai Lama in Middlebury, VT, on 1984 09/29

[Audio File 1984 0929a Begins]

HHDL: I really enjoy sit together with you since we met first time '6-- oh, '79.

AS: Uh-hm.

HHDL: I always remember you, [AS: Uh-hm.] all community member. And also that place. Very beautiful. [short pause] So any questions? (laughter, student words)

RG (very faint): Not yet.

S (very faint): Uh-hm.

AS: We were asked-- Your Holiness, we were asked to write out a few, so [HHDL: Mm.] some people have written them out, [HHDL: Right.] others probably (had/have) their own. [HHDL: Mm.] I don't know if it would be proper to read a few that people handed in as questions or let them read their own.

HHDL: Alright, come in.

AS (faint): Well I'll just read them, I'll read them.

S (very faint) Uh-hm.

HHDL: Yes.

AS: Now one question, some--

VM (simultaneously): Much louder Avery.

AS: Sorry I have-- I have-- somebody asked, "What can our group do to help Anthony?"

AD: Oh. (laughter)

[short pause]

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Hm.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: It would probably be best to ask Anthony himself. (HHDL laughing, laughter)

[slight pause]

HHDL: Now you see, in his work-- just a-- mm-- just few minutes before, you see, I expressed, you see, to him, you see, his, how to say, complicated responsibility.

HHDL: [one Tibetan word]

Translator: Hm.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: He took on this great responsibility of showing how all these various systems have a similar idea. I have a-- I like this a lot and I have a lot of interest in it.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Thus if you keep up this interest and work at it [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] it'll be helpful.

HHDL: Mm.

AS: Well then I've got about ten or fifteen other questions, [HHDL simultaneously: Mm. Alright.] (we'll/they'll) (all go) at the same time. (laughter)

LR: Avery?

AS: Speaking of--

LR: You better speak loud.

CS: Yeah, speak louder.

AS (simultaneously): Oh, sorry.

S (simultaneously): [couple words inaudible]

HHDL (simultaneously): Mm.

AS: (Obvious.)

S: [couple words inaudible]

HS: Stand on something.

S: [couple words inaudible]

HHDL: Mm.

HS (faint): Stand?

S: Stand.

HHDL: Yes.

[few students at once, few words inaudible]

AD: Speak louder.

AS: Ok, I'll just-- I'll try and speak louder. We--

HHDL: And I think stand-- [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Hm. Perhaps it would be easier [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] if you stood up, people would hear you. If [AS simultaneously: Ok.] you stand up here.

HHDL (simultaneously): Mm, yes.

AS: Ok, well, well-- You know, we've been-- we've been working for a while, as you know, at trying to understand how various systems, Vedanta, Buddhism, Platonism, Plotinus, how these can fit together, not be synchronized but how each-- the tenets of the various systems work together and what they're really meaning by what they said. And, you know, we've tried, we've read Buddhism and [HHDL: Mm.] Vedantism and so on. And, we had a few questions that are related to Buddhism and this one is fairly fundamental and this deals with this notion that there are two kinds of consciousnesses, [HHDL: Mm.] one of which the Buddhists speaks about, momentary consciousness, moment-to-moment. [HHDL: Mm.] And it's continuous but not permanent. [HHDL: Mm.] And then the other, for example, Vedanta may speak of a changeless eternal imageless intelligent substratum like Turiya or Sat or Reality. Now, in the--

Translator to HHDL (simultaneously): Some basic type of [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] permanent consciousness.

HHDL: Uh-hm.

AS: Now in some of the things we've read, we've found places for example in Paul Brunton who we've [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] studied a lot where he speaks of having the necessity of how do these two points of view fit together, [HHDL: Mm.] the changeless and the changing. And we'd like to know how does Buddhism describe these two natures and especially the unchanging nature or if they talk about it or refute it or how they would talk about it possibly from the point of view of Highest Yoga Tantra or the Nyingmas talking about the Mind Vajra or the Fundamental Mind of Clear Light. And this is [S or translator, simultaneously: Sorry.] one question for-- [HHDL: Mm.] just to-- to just continue one more-- [HHDL simultaneously: Yes.] just a little more, [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] to put a context um-- that a quote-- a quote I picked out from some of the writings of PB where he says--

PB [V16, 28:1.108 and Perspectives, Chapter 28: The Alone, #50, AS reading]: "[We must never forget that] the entire dynamic movement occurs within a static blessed repose. [HHDL: Mm.] Becoming is not apart from Being. Its kinetic movement takes place in the eternal stillness…."

AS: So on the one hand we have this changing moment-to-moment and we have another notion [S simultaneously: That's right.] even of a permanent possibility of Buddhahood or an unchanging.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Within Buddhism, within those phenomena that are produced by causes and conditions and are impermanent, there is one type that is-- that disintegrates moment-by-moment and its continuum even stops. But there's another type of phenomenon that's produced from causes and conditions whi-- of which there's no beginning to the continuum and there's no end. Thus from that point of view, it's said that its continuum is permanent.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: For instance, as you've-- as you've mentioned, there is a-- a fundamental mind and its continuum remains forever.

HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: It is not something that is newly or temporarily produced by causes and conditions.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: However it is better to say that indeed it is produced by causes and conditions and disintegrates moment-by-moment.

HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: And then there are explanations of subtle minds of clear light that are used as the path or in the path and these are inexpressible, unpredicable.

[short pause]

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan] other-- The other question.

AS: And would-- would these be-- are-- When you speak of ultimate truth of-- for example, would you consider this fundamental mind susceptible to the-- it-- can you analyze it through this notion of emptiness of inherent [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] existence as well, even as you analyze any phenomena? Would that analysis of emptiness of inherent existence also apply to this fundamental--

HHDL: Oh yes.

AS: --mind?

HHDL: Yes.

AS (simultaneously): And-- and would you say then its fundamental mi-- nature is to be void?

HHDL: Yes.

AS: And that--

HHDL (simultaneously): [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: No.

HHDL: Mm.

AS: And that void, is that a-- is that reality, I mean is there a positive way to express the reality of this fundamental mind, the most basic irreducible, incomprehensible, [HHDL: Mm.] unfathomable, whatever-- wh-- [HHDL: Mm.] imageless. Imageless Being we sometimes would use, [HHDL: Mm.] imageless Being. Now I know Being is not [HHDL: Mm.] a good word but-- and I know that the Void can't be grasped so we're trying to grasp what's ungraspable but just other ways or other terminology that might be helpful. And not the-- not the emptiness of a-- like a lectern, I-- I-- I think I can almost see that, you know, when you speak of the emptiness side of a lectern is its non-findability of inherent existence. [HHDL: Mm.] But, it seems such a huge gap between that and speaking of this fundamental mind of clear light which is always knowing as having a nature of voidness and that's its ultimate truth. Is there a relation, or-- let me just ask a simple question.

HHDL: Uh-hm. (HHDL laughs a bit, laughter, student words)

AS: Is the--

HHDL: Mm.

AS: Is that void which you say is the ultimate nature of our fundamental mind, [HHDL: Mm.] is that describable in other terms? Is Being not appropriate or the Turiya of Vedantists or Pure Consciousness, Sat?

[simultaneously] [HHDL discussing with translator in Tibetan]

AS (simultaneously): Or-- Mind.

HHDL: Mm.

AS: Intelligence.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: [speaking Tibetan]

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: If you ask whether the fundamental innate mind of clear light is empty of inherent existence, it is empty of inherent existence.

HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Now, in another explanation, there are the three natures, the-- [HHDL and translator, few Tibetan words] the dependent nature, [HHDL, one Tibetan word] the imaginary or imputed nature.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: And the [S simultaneously, faint: (Oh.)] other-powered or dependent nature's emptiness of the imaginary nature is the thoroughly established nature.

HHDL: Uh-huh. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Now, in this other--

HHDL (simultaneously): [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Uh-hm. In this other way of explanation, like these fundamental phenomenon or the fundamental mind of clear light, it is empty of temporary phenomena.

HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: This is called an other-emptiness, emptiness of the other.

HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: If you say that this fundamental innate mind of clear light which is empty of being conventional phenomena or empty of being temporary phenomena, if you say that that fundamental innate mind of clear light is empty of inherent existence, then there's a harmony with Buddha's teaching in the Middle Wheel of his teaching of the Doctrine. However, if you say that the fundamental innate mind of clear light, that ultimate, if you say that it inherently exists, then you would be contradicting the Middle Wheel of Buddha's teaching.

HHDL: Mm.

AS: Right. Yeah, in the--

HHDL: Mm.

AS: Well-- In this book for example, [HHDL simultaneously: Hm.] I mean--

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Thus, if you say that it is truly established or inherently existent, then it's not comfortable. (laughter)

S: But--

AS: For example, you described it--

HHDL (simultaneously): [speaking Tibetan] (bit more laughter)

Translator: It is the same as all other things in that when you search for it analytically it cannot be found.

HHDL: Ah. [speaking Tibetan]

[HHDL discussing with translator in Tibetan]

Translator: Even the fundamental innate mind of clear light has factors of moments, right?

AS: Ok, yeah.

HHDL (simultaneously): [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: There's the fundamental mind while one is still a common being, there's the fundamental mind when one is at the level of the path or as a superior, there's the fundamental mind when one is a Buddha.

HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Thus in Maitreya's Sublime Continuum of the Great Vehicle, he speaks of three different levels or states, one of complete impurity, one of half impurity and half purity, and the third of complete purity.

HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Thus, even though the fundamental innate mind of clear light is one, we can speak of it in-- if it-- of its continuum in terms of three different states--impure, half-half, and the pure.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Since there are these three states, then this fundamental innate mind of clear light, which is the basis of cyclic existence and Nirvana, is something that is designated in dependence upon these three states.

HHDL: Ah. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: One-- once it exists by way of designation, then it doesn't inherently exist, right?

AS: Wouldn't you rather say that those depend on it? I mean those states seem to depend on this-- this pure principle-- this principle of Mind. I-- I don't see the dependence the other way around, it seems that everything else depends on it, not that it depends on them, [HHDL, couple Tibetan words] and therefore I don't-- [Translator to HHDL, simultaneously: The (one word inaudible)] pheno-- all--

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: It indeed can be said that all temporary phenomena appear on the basis of this fundamental mind.

HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: But what I'm talking about--

HHDL (simultaneously): [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: But what I'm speaking about now or what I was just speaking about is that the fundamental innate mind of clear light has these three states of being involved with [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] impurity, of half-half, and of being pure.

HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Thus then it has parts, right?

HHDL: Ah. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: And thus the mind of clear light is the whole or that which possesses the parts.

HHDL: Ah. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Now the whole or the parts-possessor is designated in dependence upon the parts, right?

S (faint): Uh-hm.

S (faint): Uh-hm. (some laughter)

S (faint): Yeah.

AS (simultaneously): I-- [S simultaneously: No.] I can't say yeah, (AS laughing) uh-- (HHDL laughing, laughter) If I say yes then I'm-- (HHDL laughs, laughter) [S, laughing: Right!] I lose.

RG/AS(?): No.

S (simultaneously, faint): Uh-hm.

S: No.

S (faint): Uh-hm.

HHDL: Oh.

AS: I-- [RG simultaneously: No.] I mean-- [S: I mean--] I mean I-- we can give examples, I mean-- no, that's what-- How could [S simultaneously: How about experientially Avery?] aware-- on the other hand, how can awareness--

HHDL: Ah.

S: What about experientially?

AS: Yeah, experientially, can awareness [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] be said to be single and not have parts, it's always paradoxical. On the one hand thoughts appear in mind [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] and yet mind is always mind. What about the nature of it as un-- as--

RG: As pure consciousness, [AS simultaneously: Yeah.] [HHDL: Mm.] pure Being, not parted, not moment-to-moment.

AS: Or even as pure Void.

S (faint): Yeah.

HHDL: Hm.

RG: If we speak of co-- the continuum that subsists [HHDL: Mm.] or that is even while the mind continues, [HHDL: Mm.] what is that continuum? Is-- do you call-- is it em-- I mean, would you say it's emptiness?

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan; taps on something; translator assenting]

Translator: [simultaneously, to HHDL: Oh, yes.] In speaking about emptiness, I'm not speaking about this mind as being empty of form or something that you can contact and touch. That's [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] not the sort of emptiness that [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] I'm talking about.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: What I'm talking about is the fact that because things are dependent-arisings, they are empty.

HHDL: Ah. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Thus, even here the fundamental-- fundamental innate mind of clear light is dependently designated.

RG: On what? Why is it dependently designated, why doesn't it exist in its own right, not dependently arising?

HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]

AS(?): Ok.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: If now we--

HHDL (simultaneously): [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Uh-hm. If you are to think about it that way, then we also are dependently designated but we have feeling, right?

HHDL: Mm. But we quite independently exist.

AS: (Yeah.)

HHDL: Ah. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: There are obvious effects, we experience pleasure, we experience pain.

HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Nobody can say that this is empty.

S (very faint): Uh-hm.

S (very faint): Uh-hm, yeah.

HHDL: The term 'empty' [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: And what do you mean by emptiness?

RG: Uh-- I mean we-- I wouldn't-- I'm trying to understand what you mean by emptiness.

HHDL (simultaneously): Mm, mm. (some laughter)

AS: But would-- but wou--

HHDL (simultaneously): Well yes, yes, mm, mm.

AS (simultaneously): We-- we're trying to see the analogy.

HHDL (simultaneously): [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: So, on this spot in front of me, there's no flowers, right? Therefore this spot is empty of flowers.

RG: Correct.

HHDL: Ah. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: But this sort of emptiness of the spot being empty of flowers is very different, completely different, from the explanation that phenomena are empty of inherent existence.

HHDL: Mm.

S: Uh-hm.

AS (very faint): Right.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Now are the dependent and the independent contradictory or not?

S (simultaneously): No.

AS: We--

S: Listen [couple/three words inaudible]

RG (simultaneously): N-- they're not contradictory, [HHDL simultaneously: Yeah.] necessarily. (laughter, student words)

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan; one/two words from translator or student]

AS: It's paradoxical [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] but--

RG: But not necessarily, [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] I-- something--

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Can you posit something that is both dependent and independent?

RG: Yes.

AS: Yes, (of course).

HHDL (simultaneously): [speaking Tibetan; translator assenting]

Translator: And you can posit something that is dependent and in-- independent in terms of different things but in terms of one referent can you say that it is dependent with respect to that and independent with respect to that same thing?

RG: How about the pure consciousness, consciousness or mi-- the m-- base mi-- basic mind?

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan; translator assenting]

Translator: Now consciousness is some-- is the focus of our problem, so leave that for the time being (laughter) and take an example from something else.

RG: But that's the only example I want to use. (HHDL laughing, laughter, student words) That's the point, that's the point.

AS/S(?) (simultaneously, faint): (No.)

HHDL (simultaneously with RG and AS/S(?)): [one/two Tibetan words] Oh. [speaking Tibetan]

RG/S(?): Hm?

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Now, first of all, can we make the distinction between existent and e-- and non-existent?

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Can you say that something is half-existent and half non-existent?

AS (faint): Uh-hm, but it--

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: If something is existent, then it is observed by valid cognition. If it's not existent, it's not observed by valid cognition. Something is either the one or the other.

RG: Cannot there be something existent that is not obser-- observed by valid cognition, like the mind of the cognizer?

HHDL: [couple Tibetan words]

Translator: Isn't there--

[HHDL and translator exchange a few words]

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Now there's another valid-- valid cognizer that-- that cognizers-- that cognizes the valid cognizer of that object. [HHDL simultaneously: (one/two Tibetan words) Ah.] (Well), there's another mind that realizes the existence of that mind.

RG: On--

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: A later mind can infer the existence of an earlier mind.

RG: Right, we don't mean imprints, we mean in the moment, the experience of a co-- the consciousness directly, not inferentially but directly.

HHDL: Oh.

RG: Not inferentially.

HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: So then if there is no valid cognition of that object, then that thing would not be an object of knowledge.

RG: But maybe it would be the subject of knowledge.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan and laughing]

Translator: Maybe--

AS (simultaneously): And what about--

HHDL: [couple Tibetan words]

[simultaneously] [few inaudible student words, couple students]

Translator (simultaneously): Yeah, maybe it's the-- not the object of knowledge but the knower. (laughter, student words)

AS: Or-- or when you speak [few words inaudible]

HHDL (simultaneously): [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: So then how do you know of its-- of its existence?

AS: Don't-- don't you have a notion of the--

LR: Identity.

AS: --the pure mind--

HHDL (simultaneously): Hm?

LR: Identity. Knowledge by identity.

HHDL: Mm.

AS (simultaneously): Yes, of wisdom-consciousness?

HHDL: Identity [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Hm?

AS: Like water in water?

HHDL (simultaneously): Identity [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: How do you know of the existence of identity?

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: But, you're saying there's no valid cognition of it.

AS: It's self-knowing.

RG: Self-luminous, self-- self-luminous.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: So if it's self-knowing then the object of the knowledge and the agent of the knowledge would be one.

RG: Correct, yes.

AS: Yeah.

S (faint): Yeah.

RG: Yes.

AS: Right.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: If you looked into it, the only way you can posit knowing is that there--

HHDL (simultaneously): Knowing [speaking Tibetan]

[HHDL and translator exchange a few words, mostly Tibetan]

Translator: See, there has to be knower and something that is known. Other than that, when you looked into it, you should-- one sees it that way. Otherwise, you'd have to only stubbornly maintain that the knower and the known would be one.

AD: Not one, not dual.

HHDL: Hm?

AS: [one/two words inaudible]

AD (simultaneously): Not one but not-two. [LR simultaneously: Non-dual.] Non-dual.

HHDL: [couple Tibetan words] (HHDL laughs a bit, some laughter)

AD: Not one.

Translator: Not one but--

HHDL: [couple Tibetan words]

Translator: --but not two.

AD: Being and [HHDL simultaneously: Mm.] Knowing.

Translator (simultaneously): (I'll take the) water.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Now are one and many contradictory or not?

AS: Absolutely not.

RG: No.

S (very faint): Uh-hm. (bit of laughter)

AS: No, they can subsist--

S: Absolutely(--/.)

[few faint inaudible background student words]

[HHDL laughing, laughter]

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: So then the best thing to say that it-- is that it's inexpressible. (laughter)

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: So then there would be no point for us to compare our--

HHDL (simultaneously): Or discuss.

Translator: No point for us to discuss the topic.

HHDL: Discuss means words [couple Tibetan words]

Translator: With-- if you discuss, you have to use words.

HHDL: And [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: So then if you say that it is inexpressible-- it is not expressible, how can you express it?

DR: That seems to be the crux of the whole [RG simultaneously: Sure.] thing.

HHDL: Hm?

DR: That seems to be the-- the exact reason for why it is so important. If it's so inexpressible [HHDL simultaneously: Mm, mm.] but yet actually [one word inaudible, possibly another student]

HHDL (simultaneously): The Buddhist viewpoint [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: But--

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: But from the Buddhist point of view, (HHDL laughing) it is expressible and thus these various points are being made. (HHDL laughs, laughter)

[someone hits something, more laughter]

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: That's why I say he-- Anthony has taken upon himself (laughter) a very complicated and heavy responsibility. (HHDL laughing, laughter, clapping)

AS/S(?): To express the inexpressible.

S (faint): Well how are we on time?

S: We got (there).

Translator: Ok.

AS (simultaneously): Let me ask one more question?

Translator: Ok [speaking in background to HHDL]

S (simultaneously): Avery may-- did you stay up?

AS: This-- this [one word inaudible] Could I ask one more question?

HHDL: Mm.

AS: At least, and there may be other pe-- but-- [S simultaneously: No but he has (no) time to talk to (us).] we want to-- what-- what would be the mo--

HHDL (simultaneously): [speaking Tibetan] Another five minutes now.

S: Five?

HHDL: Mm, five minutes.

AS: What would be the most important thing for us as a group to hear from you right now? (bit of laughter, student words) It's-- Disregarding our questions, what do you feel would be the most important thing that you could tell us right now or that we could ask you?

HHDL: Be a good human being. Warm heart. That's most important. And at least, you see, no complication. (HHDL laughing, laughter) I mean difficult to practice but easy to understand. So, let us try. [students assent] And most important.

AS: Can we keep our analytic discussions along with the good heart? I mean--

HHDL: Of course.

AS (simultaneously): --is it possible to bring--

HHDL: Yes, it's very interesting, very good.

S (very faint): Do you have another one?

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

OG (very faint): Yes.

S (faint): Uh-hm.

OG: But would you please say something about Amitabha Buddha as the [few words inaudible]

HHDL: Amida Buddha. [couple Tibetan words]

S: Yeah.

HHDL: Mm. [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Amitabha is a Buddha of great light.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Within the five lineages of Buddhas, it is the Lotus lineage.

HHDL: Mm.

Translator: Amitabha's of the Lotus lineage.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: And Amitabha is a complete enjoyment body, Sambhogakaya.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: And has his own Pure Land.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: And it is explained that if one engages in wishes to be born in that place [HHDL: Mm.] it is helpful for one's rebirth there.

HHDL: Mm. That's right. Mm.

S: I have a question referring to your--

(Side 1 of original cassette tape digitized as 1984 0929a Ends; Side 2 Begins)

[Transcriber note: First few words are a repeat of last few words on Side 1. Very poor, faint sound quality on this side, especially the first ½ minute. I used Audio File 1984 0929a (2) (formerly 1984 0930a), 00:30:19.2 through 00:30:52.6, for better sound quality for this first ½ minute.]

HHDL: That's right. Mm.

S: I have a question referring to your talk this morning about the meditation on helping others.

HHDL: Oh.

S: Is that meant to be directed towards humanity as a whole or can it be directed towards individuals? The breathing exercise.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan] Both.

Translator: It goes--

S: Both?

S (simultaneously, very faint): Uh-hm.

HHDL: (Yeah.)

S: Is there a danger, in breathing in the negative, of retaining something of that negative, or does it become transformed into the positive that-- that is actually what allows that [one/two words inaudible]

HHDL: [couple Tibetan words]

[HHDL and translator discuss]

Translator: When you breathe in the suffering of others, it's not like a germ that could harm you. (HHDL laughs, some laughter)

S: Hopefully not.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Now, there are indeed a few exceptional cases when it's possible to breathe in, literally breathe in someone else's suffering.

S: Uh-hm, uh-hm.

HHDL (simultaneously): [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: Due to an uncommon karmic connection.

HHDL: (Mm/Uh-hm). [speaking Tibetan]

S: (Look--)

Translator: But in general it's a practice for increasing the strength of one's will. It's not-- one can't actually remove suffering from someone else or give them your own happinesses.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: But it helps a lot for the-- for one's strength of mind or will.

HHDL: [speaking Tibetan]

Translator: That's the main purpose.

HHDL: Mm. Clear? Mm.

S (very faint): Yeah.

S (faint): Answer.

HS(?): This is [HHDL simultaneously: Mm, mm, mm.] [few words inaudible] Madhyamika.

HHDL: Mm. Thank you.

S (very faint): Oh, thank you so much.

DR (faint): Bye-bye.

S (faint): Great opportunity.

[Audio File 1984 0929a Ends]